The truth about Tal's Set...

[Zroc]

Ok, I've been wanting to do this for awhile. I hell-baal a LOT, and wear Tal's full set. I actually get called a newb a lot for doing so...the most common reason given is "tal's belt/armor/ammy + hoto and shako ownz tal's set". The other most popular reason subs Occy for hoto. I'll just get that one out of the way right now...yes, with Occy and Shako, you will have 100% more mf than Tal's mask and Orb. However, like many, I cannot stand the random teleport, especially as much as I telebaal...I prefer complete control.

So then, let's take a look at Full Tal's versus Tal's armor/belt/ammy + shako and Hoto.
In order to be complete, I did NOT use a skill planner to give you these stats...I used my character, so what you're seeing is actual in-game results.
To be thorough, here's my level 87 meteorb sorc:

Hard Skill Points:
Cold: 20 points Frozen Orb/1 point Cold Mastery (I have the luxury of having a roomate who runs a max conviction pally...henceforth, me putting more points in this is a waste, due to the -100 resistance cap)

Fire: 8 in Fire Bolt, 20 in Fire Ball and Meteor, 11 in Fire Mastery (I also put a point in enchant...with plus skills, it's level 10, so I effectively add 110 fire damage and a fat 101% AR bonus to my party and their mercs/minions for 360 seconds every run...worth it, imo).

Equipment is Tal's set, 3 um'd Headhunters, Chance Guards, War Travs, and 2 sojs. In inventory, I don't run any skill charms except an anni...for that matter, I run exactly an anni, a 40% gheeds, and 20 7% magic find charms.
For this test, I will simply be swapping out Tal's Orb (it's a 2/2/2 orb...vital, imo, to at least have the 2's in the skills you use) and Tal's mask with Hoto and Shako.

Damage: I will be focusing on Frozen Orb, Meteor, and Fire Ball damage.

With Tal's set:
Frozen Orb is at level 29, damage is 482, Cold Mastery is at level 12.
Fire Ball is at level 29, damage is 5199, Fire Mastery is at level 22.
Meteor is at level 29, damage is 11115, Fire Mastery at level 22.

Subbing Hoto and Shako:
Frozen Orb is at level 30, damage is 432, Cold Mastery is at level 11.
Fire Ball is at level 30, damage is 5333, Fire Mastery is at level 21.
Meteor is at level 30, damage is 11385, Fire Mastery at level 21.

Just glancing at the numbers, they're pretty damn close, eh? First impression would be that your Frozen Orb is significantly better with Tal's, while Fire Ball and Meteor are slightly better with Hoto and Shako.

But that would not be accurate without further investigating the 'other' Tal's Orb effects...namely +15% Cold Damage (which is obvious above) and -15% Fire and Lightning Resistance (which is not).

Let's take Hell Baal for example, as he has 50% resistance against both cold and fire:

----
Tal's Frozen Orb: 482 damage, 50% Baal Cold resistance -75% resistance from level 12 CM; net effect is 482 + 25% = 602.

Hoto/Shako Frozen Orb: 435 damage, 50% Baal Cold resistance -70% resistance from level 11 CM; net effect is 435 + 20% = 522.

I do 80 more points of FO damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a rather stout 15.3% more damage.

----
Tal's Fire Ball: 5199 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 5199 -35% = 3379.

Hoto/Shako Fire Ball: 5333 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 5333 -50% = 2666.

Oww...I do 713 more points of Fire Ball damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a HUGE 26.7% more damage with Tal's.
This pretty much tells you what'll happen with Meteor...

----
Tal's Meteor: 11115 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 11115 -35% = 7224.

Hoto/Shako Meteor: 11385 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 11385 -50% = 5692.

Yep...I do 1532 more points of initial Meteor damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a fat 26.9% Meteor damage improvement with Tal's Orb/Mask over Hoto and Shako. Naturally, this applies to the per-second burn damage from Meteor as well.
----

In a nutshell, I do 15.3% more Frozen Orb damage, 26.7% more Fire Ball damage, and 26.9% more Meteor damage using Tal's Orb and mask to complete the set versus using Hoto and Shako in conjunction with Tal's armor/ammy/belt. Folks, that's a LOT more damage.

Just because I want to be complete in this thread, I'll compare the added stats outside those already mentioned (skills, damage modifiers):

Tal's Orb, Mask, and set bonus gives you:
-50% Faster Cast...please note here that if you just use belt/armor/ammy, you lose the 10% bonus on the ammy...net effect by using Hoto/Shako is a 10% FCR gain.
-267 life (57 Orb, 60 Mask, 150 set bonus)
-10 energy from the orb (effect gets boosted by sojs)
-107 Mana (77 Orb, 30 Mask)
-25% Faster Hit Recovery (I like this for telebaalin)
-150 defense, +50 versus missiles
-65% All Resists (15 from Mask, 50 from set bonus)

The replensh +10 life and 65% magic find bonuses are shared between the two setups.

Shako and Hoto gives you:
-2 to all attributes
-130 Life and 130 Mana (1.5 per char level...I'm level 87)
-10% Damage Reduction
-10% net more Faster Cast Rate (see explaination above)
-75% more melee damage to demos and 100 AR to demons (uh, who cares)
-3-14 cold damage and 7% mana leech (because I melee so much)
-10 Dex (nice for max block sorcs)
-Replenish Life +20
-Increase Maximum Mana 15%
-All resists between 30 and 40

What all that means on my character screen is:
With Tal's, I have 1147 life, 873 mana
With Hoto/Shako, I have 1014 life, 892 mana

So I have a lot more life and a little less mana with Tal's. Those differences will change 1.5 per level +/- where you're at compared to level 87.

So Hoto/Shako, as far as useful stats, gets me a little more mana, 10% faster cast, 10 dex, and +20 to replenish life...at the cost 15.3% FO damage, 26.7% FB damage, 26.9% Meteor damage, a lot of life, 25% faster hit recovery, roughly 100 defense (more versus missiles), and somewhere between 25 and 35% Resist All, depending on the quality of your Hoto.

Meh, I'll stick with Tal's ;)

This example is for a meteorb sorc...actually, he's becoming more of a Fireball sorc each level, cuz 5100+ damage not on a timer is rather effective, and I will continue to invest 1 point into Fire Bolt and two in Fire Mastery as I level.

I suspect these net results would be similar for other builds, including lightning, simply because of the +2 mastery and -15% on the lightning Tal's Orb would give. Commentary/proof welcome on that...I don't have a light sorc.

This is also a commentary on your basic pvm/mf sorc gear...this sorc with ist'd tals/ptopaz tal's helm and armor runs 513% mf standard (333 from equipment, 180% from charms), and then weapon-switches to a dual ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunter's for boss kills (adds 222 mf at level 87) for a total of 735% when whacking a boss, not counting my merc (who runs quite a bit...over 300, so if the merc kills, I'm well over 1000% mf). I think that's a rather respectable magic find percentage given the fact that I have really good kill speed and max resistances.

That was fun...commentary welcomed ;)

[TitanCentaur]

Nice analysis. I my self consider tal armor/belt/ammy is better than the entire tal set. I will take a second look at the whole set. I'll post my result some time.

[Celandro]

The numbers pretty much match up with the theoretical calculations Ive done. However, Im a pure lightning sorc and Griffons Eye far outmatches the full set bonus, so then its a comparison of 4 set orb bonus vs. Hoto.. Guess which wins.. Crescent Moon rune word with its whopping -35% enemy lightning resist. Trick question ;)

[TitanCentaur]

Crescent Moon rune word with its whopping -35% enemy lightning resist. Trick question ;)

I thought Cresent Moon weapon -35% lit resist only applies when it is attack, not when using a spell. I may be wrong.

[Celandro]

I thought Cresent Moon weapon -35% lit resist only applies when it is attack, not when using a spell. I may be wrong.

Seems to be working just fine for me, I can notice the difference against Mephisto unless its my imagination talking...

[TitanCentaur]

Seems to be working just fine for me, I can notice the difference against Mephisto unless its my imagination talking...

Nvm, you are right. Look at tal orb it has the same bonus as cresent moon weapon. I bet bliz didn't intend sorc to start wacking monster with tal orb either so... :)

[Celandro]

Nvm, you are right. Look at tal orb it has the same bonus as cresent moon weapon. I bet bliz didn't intend sorc to start wacking monster with tal orb either so... :)

Whacking monsters with my mythical sword sure is fun though!

Not that my attack rating is high enough for that to be an effective strategy :(

[Zroc]

Titancentaur: yes, please do play with it to confirm my results. Just by observation in playing, I notice a difference, yet I had my doubts because SO many told me to use hoto/shako. And using skill calcs seemed to back that up. But when I actually do it, on my character, it all comes together for Tal's.

Celandro: Ooo, nice. Yeah, just by looking at what -fire resistance does to fire damage in my post, I would think -15-20% on a griffon's eye WOULD be rather significant (not to mention the +10-15% increased damage and 25% FCR, which is far more important to a light sorc than a meteorb sorc).

Hmm, however, like titan mentioned, I don't think cresent moon actually does work with spells (I tried Doom, didn't seems to notice a jump in damage).
Regardless, that would be a pretty tough call...if it works, it's a huge -35% resistance, but the cost is 1 raw skill, 2 points in mastery (which, if it works like fire mastery, is a rather huge 24% addition to your post-synergy damage), and 30% total faster cast rate (20 from orb, and 10% additional bonus on the ammy for wearing 4 pieces), along with the 25% faster hit recovery for 4 pieces.

If the -35% works, it's almost a toss-up, particularly if that additional 30% FCR hits another breakpoint. If it does NOT work...well use Tal's immediately ;)
Might be worth looking into? I'd think with a decent amount of playing time using both, you'd find out pretty quickly.

[Celandro]

Titancentaur: yes, please do play with it to confirm my results. Just by observation in playing, I notice a difference, yet I had my doubts because SO many told me to use hoto/shako. And using skill calcs seemed to back that up. But when I actually do it, on my character, it all comes together for Tal's.

Celandro: Ooo, nice. Yeah, just by looking at what -fire resistance does to fire damage in my post, I would think -15-20% on a griffon's eye WOULD be rather significant (not to mention the +10-15% increased damage and 25% FCR, which is far more important to a light sorc than a meteorb sorc).

Hmm, however, like titan mentioned, I don't think cresent moon actually does work with spells (I tried Doom, didn't seems to notice a jump in damage).
Regardless, that would be a pretty tough call...if it works, it's a huge -35% resistance, but the cost is 1 raw skill, 2 points in mastery (which, if it works like fire mastery, is a rather huge 24% addition to your post-synergy damage), and 30% total faster cast rate (20 from orb, and 10% additional bonus on the ammy for wearing 4 pieces), along with the 25% faster hit recovery for 4 pieces.

If the -35% works, it's almost a toss-up, particularly if that additional 30% FCR hits another breakpoint. If it does NOT work...well use Tal's immediately ;)
Might be worth looking into? I'd think with a decent amount of playing time using both, you'd find out pretty quickly.

I do have tals set, griffons eye and crescent moon to choose from. I do recall when I switched to crescent moon from tal orb with light facet in it that I killed mephisto almost twice as fast. The issue with doom rune word is that it stacks with cold mastery which makes it ineffective. Ormus robes for example works the same way.. its great for a cold sorc, horrible for everyone else, because it will stack with fire and light masteries. For cold sorcs, best weapon is Deaths Fathom for the same reason crescent moon works.

[Zroc]

That part about Doom/cold sorcs certainly makes sense. And if you're killing Meph twice as fast, I'd have to assume that it IS working, cuz I believe Meph has 75% lightning resist.

Just for curiosity's sake, if you could, next time you're on, write down your damage with cresent moon equiped, and then the damage with Tal's orb equiped, and post it here (just swap those two). I'd like to run the math on it (and post the stats on the lightning facet in your tal orb).

Thanks!

[Celandro]

That part about Doom/cold sorcs certainly makes sense. And if you're killing Meph twice as fast, I'd have to assume that it IS working, cuz I believe Meph has 75% lightning resist.

Just for curiosity's sake, if you could, next time you're on, write down your damage with cresent moon equiped, and then the damage with Tal's orb equiped, and post it here (just swap those two). I'd like to run the math on it (and post the stats on the lightning facet in your tal orb).

Thanks!
Theres a slight complication.. I sold my tals armor already because I needed more fcr from the armor and belt slots (vipermagi and arachnids mesh). I may be able to do the test again sometime though..

[Stormcryer]

When I first started to construct the archmage build I was testing I did the math with equipment etc, and finally had to opt for the complete Tal Set.

Using it with twin soj, uped viscer, war travs and magefist was the only way I could add stats to all the main attributes that I needed to make the build work. + Skills, +FCR, increased damage, + res, and of course the residual MF.

It's worked great for me. The MF, Life and addidional skills you can get from charms. Try to find an FCR Charm......or a max + to chance of blocking charm....LOL

Storm

[whathappen]

We had a discussion on the tal rasha set in this forum yesterday or so and that was precisely the point some of us made about the Tal rasha set. That is very effective for a meteorb. Your numbers prove that our suspicion was right. Very good analysis.

The discusison is here:

http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=149973

[melianor]

Very nice analysis Zroc!
I'll follow up confirming your build and the values with my Meteorb sorc and alternative Occy/Shako setup.

The way i see it, -xx% res, +xx% dam and (with best orb) +2 to masteries adds enough to outshine the other setups. Its funny to see that you dont loose +skills that way :p

The only way to get more killing power would be to ditch the whole Tal's Set (except ammy) and substitute with UM+Viper, Arachnid, Occy/HotO, Shako, which i am playing around now with. I get the same Res than as with the Tal's setup but i lack some life and other stuff (though FCR suddenly is crazy)

In your comparison though i absoluty agree that Full Tal's outshines and half Tal Set breed in any way. Some people jst dont want to do the calculations and miss out on the -xx%res and +xx%dam. Match that with a perfect Tal's Orb and you can build Archmage or Meteorb very effective.
The point is that Tal's Set is useful on a 2-tree or 3-tree build but not on single-tree.

Thx for couting it all out to us!

[Stiertje]

....Try to find an FCR Charm......or a max + to chance of blocking charm....LOL

Storm

I hope this was being sarcastic :scratch:

[Zroc]

Thanks guys!

I can save you a little bit of trouble, melianor...I went back to my character, and went with viper/arachnid along with hoto/shako. This gave me a level 32 meteor with 13134 damage, which, if you cut it in half, is 6567...still a lot less than the 7224 I was effectively doing with Tal's. Easy math would tell you you'd need to hit 15K to beat the Tal setup, basically. FO was 466 compared to 482 on the Tal's gear.

Remember, though, this is more an analysis for magic finding AND killing power, in which I'm not sure Tal's can be matched. The kill power is there, the resistances let me add mf in spades. Again, I'm running 513% mf standard (333 from equipment, 180% from charms), and then weapon-switches to a dual ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunter's for boss kills (adds 222 mf at level 87) for a total of 735% when whacking a boss, not counting my merc (who runs quite a bit...over 300, so if the merc kills, I'm well over 1000% mf). I experimented with ist'd occy and shako over full tal's (which adds 100%mf), and as described above, my kill power drops a LOT, and I lose a whopping 45 all resists...which means I'd have to pull a lot of 7% mf charms out of inventory to make up for that. Which ties into...

I also get negative comments for running um's in my shield instead of ists. Well, I look at it this way...two um's gives me 44 resists, two ists gives me 50 mf. It would take me 9 5% all-resist charms (which don't exactly grow on trees) to get 45 resists...however 9 7% mf charms gives me 63 magic find. Certainly more economical, and that allowed me to load up on my weapon-switch. Personally, I like max resists....not a big fan of dying ;)

[Ulric]

Forget all the analysis. You forget the cool visual effect of having the whole set. That alone is worth more that few hundred extra points of damage.

Ulric

[nataku00]

Forget all the analysis. You forget the cool visual effect of having the whole set. That alone is worth more that few hundred extra points of damage.

Ulric

In terms of killing power, tal's set is very comparable, if not better than partial set/hoto/shako. However, most ppl would sub occulus and shako for tal orb/helm for magic find, and in that regard, I'd rather have the magic find since I don't have that many 7% mf sc on ladder :P

Very well done on the argument though, taking into account of the pros and cons for each set up :clap:

[dadiXtrema]

Eh! the aura gets in the way =D. I personally don't care either way what's happening as long as i can efficently bash and smash (or cast and blow up... your pick) as quickly as I can =). Gooooo

Occy
Shako
Skullders
Lidless
arachnids
soj
perf nagel ring
Mara's
war travs

:innocent:

plus its all for fun anyway! "whatever floats your boat" =)

[Zroc]

Hmm...just realized I over "um'd" my shield. I could've gotten all max resists from one um in the Headhunters (the big poison and fire on that thing help a lot). Dammit, I could've gone two ists!

Well, now that I think about it, I should go with two fire facets and an um. That extra -10 fire resists will go a long way...sweet!

[Soepgroente]

One more thing, you ain't losing 100 mf but only 35, since the full set grants another 65% bonus. Makes tal's look real good eh? :) :drool:

[Ter]

the good thing about the "standard" desire for the partial Tals set is that it makes the Orb fairly easy and cheap to trade for...

unfortunately...I'm still a green laquered plate away from completing the set myself so I'll just be envious of both camps until I can get one.

[Stormcryer]

Stiertje,

NOPE
Sarcasim is much to insulting for such a fine group of folks..... :innocent:

Let's say "dry wit" instead. While quite the same, it doesn't sound as nasty as sarcasim.... :surprise:


She said with tongue planted so firmly in cheek so as to mimic a sprouting appendage from the lower mandible region. :lol:

Storm

[Zroc]

One more thing, you ain't losing 100 mf but only 35, since the full set grants another 65% bonus. Makes tal's look real good eh? :) :drool:
You actually get that 65% bonus from three pieces (ex: belt, armor, ammy), which is why I said 100%.

Basic point was, Tal's set owns Hoto+Shako and Tal's Armor/belt/ammy...for basically any sorc build. Griffin's Eye and Cresent Moon would appear to would give a light sorc a good deal more damage (I still need to see the numbers to get an exact figure), but at a rather steep life/mana/resistance/magic find cost. Death's Fathom/Shako could give a pure cold sorc a decent damage boost, but that again has a steep cost.

[mistiquo]

Outstanding analyses! Wish I could bring up the patience to do something like that too...

[Soepgroente]

You actually get that 65% bonus from three pieces (ex: belt, armor, ammy), which is why I said 100%.
Hmm, the arreat summit states that you get another 65% for the full set........

EDIT- seems they copied partial set bonusses into the full set bonusses, that's where my confusion came from, sorry :)

[nataku00]

Hmm, the arreat summit states that you get another 65% for the full set........

EDIT- seems they copied partial set bonusses into the full set bonusses, that's where my confusion came from, sorry :)

Yep, they include the partial set bonuses when they list the full set bonuses. So occy + shako would give you 100 more mf if you want more mf (and most sorcs are for mf'ing :P) But as someone has already said, wear whatever you want. Everyone is afforded that flexibility in choosing their equip.

[jonnybow]

Eschuta's Temper makes fire spells do more dmg than occy/hoto .
(and it goes cheaper)

[melianor]

Eschuta's Temper makes fire spells do more dmg than occy/hoto .
(and it goes cheaper)
But you lack other goodies then, like resists added energy and vita, etc....

[Zroc]

mistiquo: thanks ;) Though I consider it time well spent, making sure I'm doing the best I can with my sorcy. I'd encourage others to do some of their own investigating...skill planners seem to be a little off, and don't account for -resistance impact.

jonnybow: I agree AND disagree on that one. Say you had a perfect fire eschutas...+3 skills, and +20% fire skill damage. Same skills as hoto/occy, but +20% more fire damage.
Let's take the hoto numbers...
"Meteor is at level 30, damage is 11385, Fire Mastery at level 21."
...and add 20% to 11385, which would be 13662.

Now, let's see what it does against Baal:
Eschuta's/Shako Meteor: 13662 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 13662 -50% = 6831.

Contrast that to the full Tal's end result:
Tal's Meteor: 11115 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 11115 -35% = 7224.

So even though the screen says eschuta's is doing 13662 versus 11115 for Tal's set, your end result is Tal's does 7224 versus 6831 for eschuta's.

Just goes to show how important -resistance can be against certain monsters. This naturally varies from monster to monster, depending on their inherant fire resistance. Let's play around with this a little...

For simplicity, let's just take a 10000 meteor (this would apply to any skill damage and any resistance to it, actually).

Say a monster has 0 fire resistance. If something adds 15% damage at this point, it adds exactly 15% net damage. Example:

10000 damage + 15% = 11500 damage, 0% monster resist -0% player resistance (net +0% damage) = 11500 net damage.

Same thing if something give -15% resistance against a 0 resistant monster...negative resistances directly add that percentage to your net damage:

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, 0% monster resist -15% player resistance (net +15% damage) = 11500 net damage.

Now let's do that with a 50% resistant monster, such as hell Baal:

10000 damage + 15% = 11500 damage, 50% monster resist -0% player resistance (net -50% damage) = 5750 net damage.

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, 50% monster resist -15% player resistance (net -35% damage) = 6500 net damage.

Now, against a monster with 75% resistance, such as hell Mephisto:

10000 damage + 15% = 11500 damage, 75% monster resist -0% player resistance (net -75% damage) = 2875 net damage.

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, 75% monster resist -15% player resistance (net -60% damage) = 4000 net damage.

As you can see in the above examples, +% damage becomes less effective the higher the monster's native resistance is, while - resistance becomes a LOT more effective the higher a monster's native resistance is.

Then there's the opposite...take a monster with -50% native resistance, such as Hell Andariel:

10000 damage + 15% = 11500 damage, -50% monster resist -0% player resistance (net +50% damage) = 17250 net damage.

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, -50% monster resist -15% player resistance (net +65% damage) = 16500 net damage.

The opposite happens....+% damage becomes more important when a monster's native resist is zero or less, while - resistance becomes less important.

(For those of you who run Andy, and have noticed that Fire Ball and Meteor just WASTE her...now you know why. She has -50% fire resistance).

---------

I'm going to try to sum up how to tell whether +% damage or - resistance is more important against any particular monster.

For +% damage, you're going to subtract the monster's end net resistance (it's base resist +/- the players resistance modifier) from your modifer percentage.

Examples:
+15% damage modifier, against a monster with 0% net resist, will give you 15 - 0% = 15% net more damage.

+15% damage modifier, against a monster with 95% net resist (say, uber diablo), will give you 15 - 95% = 0.75% net more damage. Yep, that's it...less than 1% more damage.

+15% damage modifier, against a monster with -95% net resist, will give you 20 - (-95%) = 39% net more damage. Just turn those two negatives into a positive to make it easier.

Now, for -resistance modifiers, it's not as simple. If the monster's net resistance is 0% or negative, -resistance percentage = + damage percentage, straight up...as in -15% will do 15% more damage.

However, if the monster HAS resistance...well, the easiest way I can describe this is: subtract that percentage from 100, as it's working against you. Turn that percentage into a fraction, then invert it. Examples of that are:
50% resistance = 100-50 = 50%, which = 1/2 as a fraction, which equals 2/1 (or 2) inverted.
75% resistance = 100-75 = 25%, which = 1/4 as a fraction, which equals 4/1 (or 4) inverted.
95% resistance = 100-95 = 5%, which = 1/20 as a fraction, which equals 20/1 (or 20) inverted.
(At 100% or higher, their immune, so you'll do nothing without a conviction pally or lower resist necro or wand)

Now, take the number you got above, multiply it times your -resistance modifier...and you'll have the net damage affect of that modifier.

As in...
Take a -15% modifier against 50% resistance (which was 2 from above), and your net damage effect is 15 * 2 = +30% more damage.
Take a -15% modifier against 75% resistance (which was 4 from above), and your net damage effect is 15 * 4 = +60% more damage.
Take a -15% modifier against 95% resistance (which was 20 from above), and your net damage effect is 15 * 20 = +300% more damage.

And yes, that's really 300% more damage...take Uber D, for example, who has 95% fire resist:

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, 95% monster resist -0% player resistance (net -95% damage) = 500 net damage.

10000 damage + 0% = 10000 damage, 95% monster resist -15% player resistance (net -80% damage) = 2000 net damage.

500 + 300% = 2000, which is what that goofy formula I wrote told you it would do (my math teacher would probably kill me if he saw this).


Blah, blah, blah...let's just say Tal's set is probably the best equipement for a meteorb sorc ;)

[melianor]

Totally agree and that were some nice figures ;)

[RunningUppercut]

I too am a lover of the Tals set, and I enjoy all the bonuses that come along with it. The superior resists/+life and mana and damage make the set very useful. Being able to do worldstone with Maxed resists is an awesome thing. I can't do that with other MF setups.

[Singollo]

imo the ppl using the hoto and shako are just sheep from the huddled masses. sure hoto my help a necro or pally, but i think any of the 3 sorc orbs are better then hoto. i too use the tal set over other options.

as for doom on cold sorc.... :lol: i tryed it and then tryed deaths fathom, its a lot better then doom :winner:

nice work on the tal set info, i still think the huddled masses will stay as one, and go on using hoto. thay are after all sheep

[Zroc]

I agree.
I love Hoto for my pally. And actually, I run Hoto+um'd Lidless on my trapassin...this works surprisingly well with enigma to make a really effective telebaal assassin (that 60% faster cast is mega helpful for tele speed).

I just don't see the point on a sorcy, though. And actually, if you just used a skill planner, it'd lead you to believe that hoto/shako is slightly better than completing tal's set. It isn't until you sit down, on your character, and do the math, that you realize that tal's set just owns that setup.

[kockblocker1]

Great job dude. I totally agree. Tals Set is hands down the best equipment balance for any sorc build. It's just too bad the other sets aren't as good as tals for their character class (i.e. Trangs, Aldurs, IK). Sorcs got it REAL good in 1.10

[ioupain]

Great job dude. I totally agree. Tals Set is hands down the best equipment balance for any sorc build. It's just too bad the other sets aren't as good as tals for their character class (i.e. Trangs, Aldurs, IK). Sorcs got it REAL good in 1.10

I agree - i just wish i could get tal's armour - oh well looks like it is just occy and shako for me till i find me 1

[FirstDown_Again]

Full Tals set ? What a newbie :)

jk. Good job. Makes me wish I hadn't traded my Tals armor away.

[Zroc]

Well, the good news there is, Tal's armor is trading at an all-time low. A Mal rune will buy one now (oddly enough, it is equal to Tal's ammy now). One with defense above 930 is just about an ist.

Sad, but true.

[ioupain]

Well, the good news there is, Tal's armor is trading at an all-time low. A Mal rune will buy one now (oddly enough, it is equal to Tal's ammy now). One with defense above 930 is just about an ist.

Sad, but true.

Is that a 1.10 tal's armour?

Is hell meph able to drop it as i only have a blizzard sorc and so thats all the running i really do

[Stiertje]

Is that a 1.10 tal's armour?

Is hell meph able to drop it as i only have a blizzard sorc and so thats all the running i really do

Nope, Hell Meph can't drop Tal's Armour.

And as for the Mal rune for Tal's, well, I would never trade a Tal's for a Mal unless I'm recieving the Tal's. Too bad actually, seeing as I have 3 Tal's armours lying around collecting dust.

[Stiertje]

Almost forgot to post it, to further bash all HotO, Shako and Enigma/CoH users, with Tal's you're able to use 2 additional Fire Facets. This would get the aforementioned "elite" equipement users more in a disadvantage because it will give you an additional 10% extra damage AND an extra -10% enemy resistance. This would simply CRUSH any extra skillpoints these "elite" equipement has over Tal's.

Like I said before, it's not ALL about getting absolute MAX skills.

I'm gonna do the math on several popular setups tomorrow. Have to sleep now and get up early. More to come.

[Singollo]

i dint think that tal set is the only good set for characters, trang makes the necro look awsome, u dont need ammy and weapon to use ful set so u can have some nice set ups with it, aside from the casting bug its a good set too,

[Mule]

What I find to be lacking is cast rate? The set alone grants 50%, what are you going to trade in to get more?

[Stiertje]

What I find to be lacking is cast rate? The set alone grants 50%, what are you going to trade in to get more?

Magefist or 2x 10% FCR rings. I'd go Magefist all the time for Fire based char.

[Talon0835]

Tal's Ammy is more than Tal's armor on USEast Ladder. lol

[melianor]

Magefist or 2x 10% FCR rings. I'd go Magefist all the time for Fire based char.

Magfists are good for any build, even if it cannot use the +1 Fire Skills.
Thats also the place i get my extra FCR from to reach the breakpoint at 63% FCR. Another option is ofcourse Lidless if you are not going for max-blocking with your build.

[melianor]

Almost forgot to post it, to further bash all HotO, Shako and Enigma/CoH users, with Tal's you're able to use 2 additional Fire Facets. This would get the aforementioned "elite" equipement users more in a disadvantage because it will give you an additional 10% extra damage AND an extra -10% enemy resistance. This would simply CRUSH any extra skillpoints these "elite" equipement has over Tal's.

Like I said before, it's not ALL about getting absolute MAX skills.

I'm gonna do the math on several popular setups tomorrow. Have to sleep now and get up early. More to come.

Right stertje, i am search now for perfect Fire/Cold Facets for my Meteorb build.
I am not sure though if i should insert 2 Fire Facets, or 1 Fire 1 Cold. -%xx res works more than +xx% damage, right?
Also instead of Ptopazing your Armor you can add another Facet there.
For Archmage Build i would have 1 Facet of each, with Tal's Orb giving:

Fire: +5%dam (almost like 1 FM)/-20% res (!)
Lightning: +5%dam/-20% res (!)
Cold: +20% dam/-5% res (!) For FO this is like 10(!) points in Icebolt!!!

Also dont forget to calculate the extra +2/+1 on all Masteries!
Found a perfect Orb once :teeth:, still using it.

Considering when building an archmage i dont know which facets i would insert. Thinking of boosting the Lightning Tree here.
with 3 perfect Lightning Facets you get:

+2 Lightnin Mastery (Tal's Orb)
3 Lightning facets + Orb: +15%damage / -30% res

-30% res on Lightning is simply crazy, comes even with using a Crescent Moon runeword, except for 5% and has more benefits than having to carry one of those runwords for a pure Lightning build.
Also opposed to Mang Songs lesson Tal's weapon is an Orb, so there is another slot free for a Shield.

With the rigth facets and some skillers added this build can outshine any other Sorc equipment, simply for the -xx% res added.

You could put a Facet in your Shield aswell ofcourse...
Soem great possibilities here!

[Stormcryer]

HMMMM,,

The many facets of the Facet.

[Stiertje]

Ok, doing some of the math on a Pure Fire sorc with full synergies and prereqs (Fire Bolt, Fire Ball, Meteor and Fire Mastery at slvl 20). I'm going to calculate damage done to monsters with various Fire Resistances for some equipement setups.



First setup, the max skillpoints setup;

Headgear Shako (+2 skill)
Amulet Mara's (+2 skill)
Armour Enigma/Chains of Honor (+2 skill)
Rings Stone of Jordan (+2 skill)
Weapon Heart of the Oak (+3 skills)
Shield Lidless Wall (+1 skill)
Gloves Magefist (+1 Fire skill)
Belt Arachnid Mesh (+1 skill)
------------------------------------------------------------ +
Total +13 skill - +1 Fire skill



Now how does this relate in damage (avarage);

Fire Bolt 7586
Fire Ball 10983
Meteor 22244

Let's take Fire Ball and see the damage it does to increasingly resistant monsters in steps of 25%, starting with non-resistant;

0% resistant 10983
25% resistant 8237
50% resistant 5491
75% resistant 2746

This is all kinda straight forward and the numbers are easy to calculate. Increasing resistance decreases skill effectivity by the same amount. Now we throw in 2 perfect Fire facets and see how this works on this setup. (Shield + Helm)

There's only one slight complication here. the +% to Fire skill damage is calculated on the hard skill points invested, and not on the +skill. This means the +% damage is added to the base skill damage just like the synergies. I don't want to manually calculate this all through because that would be too much work, but essentially the extra 10% to Fire damage is just below the % of a synergy level of Fire Bolt. The synergy bonus of Fire Bolt boils down to almost 2.2% at these levels, so I'm going to use 2% for further calculation.

The -% to enemy resistance works differently. This number is calculated AFTER all additions, so it effectively works on the WHOLE fire damage, including Fire Mastery and +skill added damage. This makes the -% to enemy resistance by far the most important mod on a Fire Facet. +% to damage is almost neglectable, -% to enemy resistance is NOT.

So, to go to the numbers, with 2 facets for setup like this, the actual damage from Fireball would be;

Fire Ball 11203

And the effect on the various resistance monsters would be like this;

0% resistant 12323 (12.2% increase)
25% resistant 9523 (15.6% increase)
50% resistant 6722 (22.4% increase)
75% resistant 3921 (42.8% increase)





Hmn, it's all going to be a bit longer then expected. I'll follow with the Full Tal's Setup with also as much possible skills as possible.

Second setup, the Tal's setup;

Headgear Tal's Horadric Crest
Amulet Tal's Adjudication (+2 skills)
Armour Tal's Guardianship
Rings Stone of Jordan (+2 skill)
Weapon Tal's Lidless Eye (+2 Fire Mastery)
Shield Lidless Wall (+1 skill)
Gloves Magefist (+1 Fire skill)
Belt Tal's Finespun Cloth
Set Bonus +3 skills
------------------------------------------------------------ +
Total +8 skill - +1 Fire skill - +2 Fire Mastery




This relates into damage to this (avarage);

Fire Bolt 3823
Fire Ball 7821
Meteor 17624

Because of the Tal's inherent -15% to enemy Fire resistance the numbers already calculate differently then the max skill setup. We again take Fire Ball and see how it affects various resistant monsters.

0% resistant 8994
25% resistant 7039
50% resistant 5084
75% resistant 3128

You can see that around 60% resistance is the turnpoint in damage output. With lower resistances the max skill setup wins but at about 60% the numbers are almost equal. Even more resistance and the Tal's setup starts to win.

But now we're going to calculate with additional Fire facets in the setup. The Tal's setup has place for 4 perfect Fire facets. This accounts for +20% extra damage on the base skill damage and -20% to enemy resistance. The extra damage will boil down to about 2.5% extra damage at these levels since it is only slighty more the a synergy level from Fire Bolt. The -% to resistance will be an overall -35% to fire resistance.

So, for the 4 facet setup the actual damage from Fire Ball is;

Fire Ball 8017

And for the various resistant monsters it will be;

0% resistant 10823 (20.3% increase)
25% resistant 8819 (25.3% increase)
50% resistant 6814 (34% increase)
75% resistant 4810 (53.8% increase)

With this setup the turnpoint is already at around 40%. Above 40% resistance the Tal's setup wins from the max skill setup. It has a notable 22.7% increased performance at 75% resistance, and will only increase when these numbers are even higher (for PvP and such)





Phew, quite a piece of text we have here. Now there's only one thing I would like you te reflect on. This is a gear-only setup. When someone has some more time (or when I feel like it) there could be an addition to this with a full inventory of Fire Skillers. The only thing I will say (and you can calculate through it if you don't believe me) is that the turning point in damage output will be even lower with those additional Fire Skillers. With additional Fire Skillers the Tal's Setup will even outshine the Max Skill Setup at 10% resistance.




Done.
Start bashing them "Elite" min/maxxers

[Celandro]

I did a similar comparison for Lightning damage and I want to mention a few things.

1) Griffons Eye blows away full tals set. Its not even close. Without full set bonus, tal orb looks a bit worse.
2) Crescent moon rune word and 6 facet phase blade are both the highest pure damage weapons for a pure lightning build.
3) 4 facet shield is the highest pure damage shield.

Conclusion: Use your equipment to get -enemy light resist, use your inventory to get +skills


Unsubstaniated theorizing: For any pure build, use your inventory for +skills, use your equipment to give you -enemy fire resist, -enemy light resist or +% cold damage. Try not to sacrifice too much FCR/resists to get your damage numbers up. Rings, amulets, gloves and boots are the key here.


PS. For lightning damage calculations, see post 2 here: http://www.rpgforums.net/showthread.php?t=140158

[Mule]

Magefist or 2x 10% FCR rings. I'd go Magefist all the time for Fire based char.
The reason I ask is the original calculations weren't based on mage fists, but rather chancies for the lacking MF, so somewhere some additional MF needs to be deducted.

[melianor]

The reason I ask is the original calculations weren't based on mage fists, but rather chancies for the lacking MF, so somewhere some additional MF needs to be deducted.

Lacking MF?!

112 Ptopaz armor
15 Belt
65 setbonus with 3 items
22 rare mf/res boots
30-40 Gheeds
-----------------
244-254 mf I think thats just fine, no?

Maybe Ali/Rhyme on switch and thats really enough for killng bosses even without gheeds and boots.

[DaemonX]

Sorry what the heck is hoto?

[Talon0835]

'Heart of the Oak' Runeword [Ko + Vex + Pul + Thul]

[illa]

Tals set is dead boring, not enough fcr and not enough mf I think its a pain in the *** using it and can only be justified if one doesn\t have any elite gear.

[Stiertje]

Tals set is dead boring, not enough fcr and not enough mf I think its a pain in the *** using it and can only be justified if one doesn\t have any elite gear.

And what would you consider elite gear?

And assuming you have elite gear, what's yours?

[Zroc]

Mule: Yes, what they said. You could choose to give up (in my case) roughly 40 mf from the chance guards and go magefist, or 50 from the shield and run an um'd lidless (again, I run ist/ist/um headhunters by choice). Personally, the um'd lidless is a pretty good idea, because of the big mana boost and extra skill. And in my case, it'd just drop my mf from 1101 to 1051 anyway ;) I find 50% fcr enough for magic-finding baal running with a meteorb sorcy...if you're caster is more fcr based, by all means.

illa: I put in considerable effort to show why Tal's set is actually quite good. And yes, I have all the 'elite' gear, which is not as effective for kill-power/magic find as Tal's. Why don't you back your flame up with some fact?

Here's my gear:
-Ist'd Tal Orb
-Ptopazed Tal Mask and armor
-Tal's belt and ammy
-Now running a Um/Ist/Ist Headhunter's shield
-2 sojs
-38 chance guards, 48 war travs
-Anni, 40% gheeds, and 20 7% mf charms
-Weapon switch: dual-ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunters

Adding that up, I run 382% MF from my main equipment, and another 180% from charms, for a respectable 562% magic find from my standard killing gear. I get another 222% magic find on my weapon switch for the final boss blow, boosting that to 784%. My merc runs an eth tomb reaver (amn/ist/ist), ptopazed shako, and ptopazed upgraded skullders for another 317% magic find, so if he gets the kill, it's at 1101% magic find total.

Both me and my merc have max resists, which I find necessary for soloing baal at a decent speed. I COULD boost that magic find another 60% by using two 30% nagels, but I prefer to run 2 sojs for the kill power and massive boost to energy shield effectiveness.

So I'm running 1101% magic find, and could run more. While not the absolute best, I'd say that's pretty damn good, considering my killing power and max resists.

For that matter, I could replace all my magic find charms with 10 skillers, and still be at max resists (actually, way more, cuz I could run up to 10 resist sc's). And then replace the three ists, um, and two ptopazs I've socketed with six facets for another +30%/-30%.

I prefer to run high magic find, but Tal's set surely allows me to stack up on damage if I wished.

[Njx]

Anyone mind explaining to me where this +xx % - %% <insert element here> comes from? I checked the dii.net sets, tal's, and can't find this attribute, you guys mind a newb to tal's set to explain where this comes from ?

[Zroc]

It's from the set bonuses applied to Tal's Orb from running more than one piece of the set...specifically:

+1 To Sorceress Skill Levels (2 Items)
-15% To Enemy Fire Resistance (3 Items)
-15% To Enemy Lightning Resistance (4 Items)
+15% To Cold Skills Damage (Complete Set)

Total bonuses and set details here:
http://www.battle.net/diablo2exp/items/sets/sets7.shtml#talrashas

[Stiertje]

Anyone mind explaining to me where this +xx % - %% <insert element here> comes from? I checked the dii.net sets, tal's, and can't find this attribute, you guys mind a newb to tal's set to explain where this comes from ?

The information on either Diabloii.net or the Arreat Summit is sometimes not correct.

To take the Tal's set as an example, the partial and inherent bonusses on particularly the Orb is screwed. Diabloii.net fails to specify the variation in the + to masteries and the partial set bonusses like the +1 to sorc skills and the +% cold damage and the -% enemy fire and lightning resistance.

Arreat Summit does have this information about the Tal's set, but in the Elite Unique boots section it actually misses a brand new item, the Mermans Sprocket.

So, in short you should not necesarily rely on the information that you find on those two sites. IMO the Arreat Summit has the most up to date information, though not always complete.

[Killfrenzy]

the only problem with tals set is the butt-ugly mask

[LordDrift]

I did what everyone elkse did

Occy + Tals

[PsycoCarrot]

I think that your analysis of the Tal Rasha's set is absolutely accurate. You showed no bias towards it, just plain facts. Bravo. I recently acquired the full Tal's set, after reading your thread, and I haven't used my occy since. Thanks!

[Zarhrezz]

Arreat Summit does have this information about the Tal's set, but in the Elite Unique boots section it actually misses a brand new item, the Mermans Sprocket.

So, in short you should not necesarily rely on the information that you find on those two sites. IMO the Arreat Summit has the most up to date information, though not always complete.

That's probably because the Merman's Sprocket aren't enabled in any patch. As far as I know, the Summit has the most accurate and complete information. This site's item section seems to be stuck in 1.09.

[Stiertje]

That's probably because the Merman's Sprocket aren't enabled in any patch. As far as I know, the Summit has the most accurate and complete information. This site's item section seems to be stuck in 1.09.

Hmn, that could be it. Someone I know claims to have seen it, but maybe he just forgot he saw it @ diabloii.net and afterwards thought he saw it ingame. I've never seen the thing, but to be absolutely sure you'd have to find a 3x durability rare in that item class.

[Stiertje]

I think that your analysis of the Tal Rasha's set is absolutely accurate. You showed no bias towards it, just plain facts. Bravo. I recently acquired the full Tal's set, after reading your thread, and I haven't used my occy since. Thanks!

One down, many more to go :thumbsup:

[Iron Kitty]

For my meteorb, I've been using a wand of lvl 2 lower resist on weapon switch (with the standard occy/shako/tal armor/tal belt/tal ammy set up). The -37% resists for 22 seconds makes a huge difference in killing speed. One downside is the expense of repairing/recharging the wand.

[Azonian]

For my meteorb, I've been using a wand of lvl 2 lower resist on weapon switch (with the standard occy/shako/tal armor/tal belt/tal ammy set up). The -37% resists for 22 seconds makes a huge difference in killing speed. One downside is the expense of repairing/recharging the wand.


ort +chipped +cube = fully repaired /fully charged item :lol:

[-Edicius-]

I have a question for you Zroc,
I use full tal's set along with the usual MF gear. My mf is around 270-300 because one of my friends said that was a perfect amount to find necessary elites and such. I was just wondering what kind of items you find because i want to know if i should put MF on my merc and add some more MF to my lvl 95 sorc. Thanks :)

[Stiertje]

I have a question for you Zroc,
I use full tal's set along with the usual MF gear. My mf is around 270-300 because one of my friends said that was a perfect amount to find necessary elites and such. I was just wondering what kind of items you find because i want to know if i should put MF on my merc and add some more MF to my lvl 95 sorc. Thanks :)

Did your friend also tell you why 270-300% is a perfect amount?

Around this percentage the deminishing returns for MF% really kicks in. The actual increase in MF% is far less then the stated MF% for gear. However, more is always better. The thing is that many people trade in much killing power to get as much MF% as possible, and this will hurt your overall MF, because you kill slower.

Remember, MF is all about statistics. You can get lucky off course (me got an Arkains Valor on a first Baalrun of a day once) but mostly it's how many monsters you can kill with an amount of MF% in an amount of time. If one of the two get's too low, then you need to decrease the other.

My level 95 sorc has 575% MF for normal killing, and 700% MF on swap for final bosskill. She has no problem with Baal & Minions as it is, but for instance using Chance Guards would seriously impare my sorc's FCR, and hence killing power.

[Zroc]

Thanks, PsycoCarrot...much appreciated, and enjoy your Tals ;)

Iron Kitty: Yes, it certainly does. That's why I almost exclusively team-magic find with a max conviction pally partner.

Edicius: I agree with Stiertje. After 300 or so is when the returns start diminishing very quickly. But yes, unique drop chance still does increase the higher you go, so wear as much as possible.
Yes, I do notice it. I run hell Baal a LOT. My conviction pally makes the games, so I keep my champion status and get the bossq drop when killing Baal. With this high of magic find, I almost never see a blue item drop, and it's not uncommon for me to have 4 or 5 uniques pop in a single Baal drop.

[raiderjb]

Hey

Great job Zroc.

I was so unconvinced about which way was the best that I built 2 MF sorces. Both meteorb variants and level 89 and 86.

Level 89 3 item and level 86 full Tal

Well I was so impressed with the Tal Set version that I invested in a 4 ist shield for the weapon switch and rebuilt the sorc to equip an ss for general running. You may as well if youve spent your stat points for a 4 Ist Monarch.
Your post just confirmed what I was seeing playing the game.

Apart form that I wold say my set up is pretty much the same as yours and Im happy

Yesterday Pindle dropped me a nice little Hydra Bow so Hey everything in the garden is rosy.

The next time someone says to me U NOOOOOB full Tal LOOOOOL I will just refer them to your post

Just for once the mega rich rolling in it players cant have it all there own way

Thx again

[melianor]

Recently i have seen alot Sorcs using Tal's Set. i dropped in a Hell/Baal game and we had (including me) 4 shining Ladies ;)

I still think though that it is important to add skillers to that setup and also as an add perfect facets :)

Otherwise everything is fien with that set, except ofcourse as ever the look of that dreaded mask! :cheesy:

[Stiertje]

Recently i have seen alot Sorcs using Tal's Set. i dropped in a Hell/Baal game and we had (including me) 4 shining Ladies ;)

I still think though that it is important to add skillers to that setup and also as an add perfect facets :)

Otherwise everything is fien with that set, except ofcourse as ever the look of that dreaded mask! :cheesy:

I think we've changed some people's minds about the Tal's set. I think at least some of the 1679 viewers of this article have changed their gear from the L33t Uber Gear to the Tal's gear.

[create2xs]

My pvm/mf lvl 90 cl/fo soft sorc uses COH, Shako, Isted Occy, 2 soj's, Arachnid mesh, perf Maras, Um'd SS... it destroys the full tals set I also have in my chest. Tho the set is 1.09, I hear they have made improvements on it since 1.1...

c

btw- my merc wears enigma, delirum, and doom, he rocks

[Zroc]

Heh, thanks guys...glad you're diggin' the thread ;)

create2xs: certainly a fine setup, no doubt. Whether that's actually better than Tal's is up to the beholder, though...as I mentioned, I focused on killing power AND magic find, and from the magic find perspective, my setup is certainly better than yours. Yours would certainly be better at straight pvp (though I'd ditch the occy).

Hmm, well yes, if it's 1.09, and doesn't get all the 1.10 bonuses, that certainly WOULD be poor, no doubt.

[tooth]

zroc what made you choose a 3s headhunters over a 4s monarch for your mf switch?

also very nice article. you just made one more follower :P

[melianor]

zroc what made you choose a 3s headhunters over a 4s monarch for your mf switch?

also very nice article. you just made one more follower :P

I think he meant 3s Headhunters Glory?
+320-420 Defense (varies)
+300-350 Defense vs. Missile (varies) (!)
Fire Resist +20-30% (varies) (!)
Poison Resist +30-40% (varies)
+5-7 Life After Each Kill (varies) (also nice...)
Socketed (1-3)

Required Level: 75
Required Strength: 106 (which is less than 4xIST monarch, which has 156str req.)

[Zroc]

Thanks tooth ;)
Exactly what melianor posted...enormous defense (mine has 574 def), with even more against missiles, big fire and poison (particularly poison...mine has 40%, and that's the one resistance Tal's is a little lacking in), and pretty low str at 106...much lower than 156 for monarch.

Again, though, I choose energy shield over max block. I just like it better, even with just a single point in it and only one in telekinesis. Wearing 2 sojs means points in mana add up pretty fast. I typically have around 2000 life and 2000 mana after battle orders...I regen so fast, it's effective. In a typically telebaal run, I use 1 or 2 mana potions, if any at all. And a mana pot fills up the ball 1000 times quicker than a life pot will.

The alternative, naturally, is going max block with stormshield, and then 4 ist monarch on switch. Instead of putting points in mana, you'd put points in str for your shield, and then dex to keep max block up.

Really a matter of preference. I prefer es, cuz it saves me from a bad pack of gloams/souls or stygian furies, or anything blocking or dr doesn't affect.

I'd rather have an empty mana ball than an empty life ball any day ;)

[melianor]

Just to undermine one of the points made at the beginning of this thread:
When you add a few Skillers to wearing the full Tal's Set it really starts to shine. I recently got hold of some 2xFireskillers and 1xColdskiller and noticed a BIG difference.

With Full Tal's Set, Shield, Soj, Magefist and Anni i get
Fire: +12skills
Cold:+10skills
add +2 extra from Masteries on the orb aswell

With the -15% res for Fire the damage output starts to skyrocket compared to a "just" +12skills setup with the usual uniques like shako, occy, etc....

Battling Mephi with FB/Meteor and static was incredibly fast compared to the damage i did with a similiar +12 skills setup. His healthbar dropped just as fast, as if i would be using FB/FO.

This set rocks, when you add some skillers. Apart from all the other goodies on that set the main part that makes it so viable are the stats on the Orb.
Right now i am on a mission to get 2xperfect Fire facets and 1xperfect Cold Facets to socket into Orb/Mask/Armor. This should increase damage output even further.

All i can say: If you really want to kill faster get -xx% Fire/lighting/cold resistances gear. But also keep in mind you will need sufficient/equal +skills to outdo a similiar setup without -xx% res!

[fe-crazywolf]

All I can say is that tal's set owns hands down in hardcore the life bonuses and dmg bonuses are awesome and it has decent enough +skills, in hardcore ladder the armor alone sometimes trades for a soj.

[happyface95]

In an instance where I "sacrificed" killing power for MF. I use ist occy/shako ist with tals set and I get :

20 res anni
40 res tal
30 Anya
75 cold
35 lightning (-15%/15 res jewel)
30 occy
________

+120 all res, max cold, 55 lightning, coupled with a few mf/res charms I still get enough res.

My life is well enough to survive and the Might Merc does plenty of damage with its Eth Bonehew.

I kill at the approximatly the same speed, since i dont use orb or Meteor.

[NyTStrykE]

Well I can say that I am convinced, I switched to it today from Shako/Occy. There is a noticeable difference in killing speed, but not very large. My sorc is a meteorb sorc on ladder with:

Full Tal's Set (fire facet on armor)
War Travs
Sancturary Troll Nest
Frosties
Nagelring
~+17 Dex rare ring with other stuff

Including the bonuses,
Meteor Max
Fireball Max
Fire Mastery Max
Frozen Orb Max
Cold Mastery 15

She has about 72% block, ~240 mf, 1100 life, and about 750 mana. I have to say I enjoy the nearly 300 more life I have than previously. I seriously tried to use Magefists instead of Frosties, but I found myself running out of mana quickly when teleporting (Andy, Meph, Countess runs). So I had to switch back. Any ideas? I have like 500 mana using magefists.

I am going to put Occy + Rhyme on weapon switch to increase in the mf department. (don't have the necessary "resources to get isted stuff" after 6 of my chars expired after my 3 month break). I think this will be sufficient. Quick question though, if I meteor, then weapon switch, is current mf calculated when the monster dies or mf at the time of the click of the mouse?

[Superhal]

couple mana charms are a good way to control mana in general, not just the tal's set. gc's are the best ratio, like up to 20 mana/square possible.

[FistOfHeaven]

[QUOTE=Zroc]Ok, I've been wanting to do this for awhile. I hell-baal a LOT, and wear Tal's full set. I actually get called a newb a lot for doing so...the most common reason given is "tal's belt/armor/ammy + hoto and shako ownz tal's set". The other most popular reason subs Occy for hoto. I'll just get that one out of the way right now...yes, with Occy and Shako, you will have 100% more mf than Tal's mask and Orb. However, like many, I cannot stand the random teleport, especially as much as I telebaal...I prefer complete control.

So then, let's take a look at Full Tal's versus Tal's armor/belt/ammy + shako and Hoto.
In order to be complete, I did NOT use a skill planner to give you these stats...I used my character, so what you're seeing is actual in-game results.
To be thorough, here's my level 87 meteorb sorc:

Hard Skill Points:
Cold: 20 points Frozen Orb/1 point Cold Mastery (I have the luxury of having a roomate who runs a max conviction pally...henceforth, me putting more points in this is a waste, due to the -100 resistance cap)

Fire: 8 in Fire Bolt, 20 in Fire Ball and Meteor, 11 in Fire Mastery (I also put a point in enchant...with plus skills, it's level 10, so I effectively add 110 fire damage and a fat 101% AR bonus to my party and their mercs/minions for 360 seconds every run...worth it, imo).

Equipment is Tal's set, 3 um'd Headhunters, Chance Guards, War Travs, and 2 sojs. In inventory, I don't run any skill charms except an anni...for that matter, I run exactly an anni, a 40% gheeds, and 20 7% magic find charms.
For this test, I will simply be swapping out Tal's Orb (it's a 2/2/2 orb...vital, imo, to at least have the 2's in the skills you use) and Tal's mask with Hoto and Shako.

Damage: I will be focusing on Frozen Orb, Meteor, and Fire Ball damage.

With Tal's set:
Frozen Orb is at level 29, damage is 482, Cold Mastery is at level 12.
Fire Ball is at level 29, damage is 5199, Fire Mastery is at level 22.
Meteor is at level 29, damage is 11115, Fire Mastery at level 22.

Subbing Hoto and Shako:
Frozen Orb is at level 30, damage is 432, Cold Mastery is at level 11.
Fire Ball is at level 30, damage is 5333, Fire Mastery is at level 21.
Meteor is at level 30, damage is 11385, Fire Mastery at level 21.

Just glancing at the numbers, they're pretty damn close, eh? First impression would be that your Frozen Orb is significantly better with Tal's, while Fire Ball and Meteor are slightly better with Hoto and Shako.

But that would not be accurate without further investigating the 'other' Tal's Orb effects...namely +15% Cold Damage (which is obvious above) and -15% Fire and Lightning Resistance (which is not).

Let's take Hell Baal for example, as he has 50% resistance against both cold and fire:

----
Tal's Frozen Orb: 482 damage, 50% Baal Cold resistance -75% resistance from level 12 CM; net effect is 482 + 25% = 602.

Hoto/Shako Frozen Orb: 435 damage, 50% Baal Cold resistance -70% resistance from level 11 CM; net effect is 435 + 20% = 522.

I do 80 more points of FO damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a rather stout 15.3% more damage.

----
Tal's Fire Ball: 5199 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 5199 -35% = 3379.

Hoto/Shako Fire Ball: 5333 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 5333 -50% = 2666.

Oww...I do 713 more points of Fire Ball damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a HUGE 26.7% more damage with Tal's.
This pretty much tells you what'll happen with Meteor...

----
Tal's Meteor: 11115 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -15% resistance from Tal's Orb; net effect is 11115 -35% = 7224.

Hoto/Shako Meteor: 11385 damage, 50% Baal Fire resistance -0% resistance from equipment; net effect is 11385 -50% = 5692.

Yep...I do 1532 more points of initial Meteor damage with Tal's over Shako/Hoto...this represents a fat 26.9% Meteor damage improvement with Tal's Orb/Mask over Hoto and Shako. Naturally, this applies to the per-second burn damage from Meteor as well.
----

In a nutshell, I do 15.3% more Frozen Orb damage, 26.7% more Fire Ball damage, and 26.9% more Meteor damage using Tal's Orb and mask to complete the set versus using Hoto and Shako in conjunction with Tal's armor/ammy/belt. Folks, that's a LOT more damage.

Just because I want to be complete in this thread, I'll compare the added stats outside those already mentioned (skills, damage modifiers):

Tal's Orb, Mask, and set bonus gives you:
-50% Faster Cast...please note here that if you just use belt/armor/ammy, you lose the 10% bonus on the ammy...net effect by using Hoto/Shako is a 10% FCR gain.
-267 life (57 Orb, 60 Mask, 150 set bonus)
-10 energy from the orb (effect gets boosted by sojs)
-107 Mana (77 Orb, 30 Mask)
-25% Faster Hit Recovery (I like this for telebaalin)
-150 defense, +50 versus missiles
-65% All Resists (15 from Mask, 50 from set bonus)

The replensh +10 life and 65% magic find bonuses are shared between the two setups.

Shako and Hoto gives you:
-2 to all attributes
-130 Life and 130 Mana (1.5 per char level...I'm level 87)
-10% Damage Reduction
-10% net more Faster Cast Rate (see explaination above)
-75% more melee damage to demos and 100 AR to demons (uh, who cares)
-3-14 cold damage and 7% mana leech (because I melee so much)
-10 Dex (nice for max block sorcs)
-Replenish Life +20
-Increase Maximum Mana 15%
-All resists between 30 and 40

What all that means on my character screen is:
With Tal's, I have 1147 life, 873 mana
With Hoto/Shako, I have 1014 life, 892 mana

So I have a lot more life and a little less mana with Tal's. Those differences will change 1.5 per level +/- where you're at compared to level 87.

So Hoto/Shako, as far as useful stats, gets me a little more mana, 10% faster cast, 10 dex, and +20 to replenish life...at the cost 15.3% FO damage, 26.7% FB damage, 26.9% Meteor damage, a lot of life, 25% faster hit recovery, roughly 100 defense (more versus missiles), and somewhere between 25 and 35% Resist All, depending on the quality of your Hoto.

Meh, I'll stick with Tal's ;)

This example is for a meteorb sorc...actually, he's becoming more of a Fireball sorc each level, cuz 5100+ damage not on a timer is rather effective, and I will continue to invest 1 point into Fire Bolt and two in Fire Mastery as I level.

I suspect these net results would be similar for other builds, including lightning, simply because of the +2 mastery and -15% on the lightning Tal's Orb would give. Commentary/proof welcome on that...I don't have a light sorc.

This is also a commentary on your basic pvm/mf sorc gear...this sorc with ist'd tals/ptopaz tal's helm and armor runs 513% mf standard (333 from equipment, 180% from charms), and then weapon-switches to a dual ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunter's for boss kills (adds 222 mf at level 87) for a total of 735% when whacking a boss, not counting my merc (who runs quite a bit...over 300, so if the merc kills, I'm well over 1000% mf). I think that's a rather respectable magic find percentage given the fact that I have really good kill speed and max resistances.

First of all I have to say that I give respect for your post, it was not some n00bish "Tal Set Rules" without giving any validation to the statement. However my sorc is pretty much solely for magic find runs and you cannot get near the mf using Tal set then using IstOccy(I use instead of hoto for the mf),PtopazShako. Now using the tal rasha 3 piece armour,ammy,belt you get 112armour with ptopazin socket, 15 from a perfect belt,and a good 65 from the set bonus. So that gives you all the mf of the tal set plus 80from istoccy, 74from ptopaz shako, and in my estimation my killing power is still equal to the tal set. So for a mf the tal set in inferior,also what mfers do baal,meph is far more dependable for items then baal and alot easier to get 2.

[melianor]

I seriously tried to use Magefists instead of Frosties, but I found myself running out of mana quickly when teleporting (Andy, Meph, Countess runs). So I had to switch back. Any ideas? I have like 500 mana using magefists.

I am going to put Occy + Rhyme on weapon switch to increase in the mf department. (don't have the necessary "resources to get isted stuff" after 6 of my chars expired after my 3 month break). I think this will be sufficient. Quick question though, if I meteor, then weapon switch, is current mf calculated when the monster dies or mf at the time of the click of the mouse?

Get a SOJ for Mana ;) or a good FCR ring with mana. There are rare ones with 10%fcr and like 80 Mana + other mods. Magic ones with 10FCR and like 80-100 Mana are nice too.

MF is ALWAYS calculated when the monster dies, no matter which of the spells you cast kills it. Its an illusion that MF is coupled with the spell that kills the monster! This myth has been around too long i guess. MF is calculated when you kill and not how you kill. Always your full amount!! THe rest is just luck.

[melianor]

First of all I have to say that I give respect for your post, it was not some n00bish "Tal Set Rules" without giving any validation to the statement. However my sorc is pretty much solely for magic find runs and you cannot get near the mf using Tal set then using IstOccy(I use instead of hoto for the mf),PtopazShako. Now using the tal rasha 3 piece armour,ammy,belt you get 112armour with ptopazin socket, 15 from a perfect belt,and a good 65 from the set bonus. So that gives you all the mf of the tal set plus 80from istoccy, 74from ptopaz shako, and in my estimation my killing power is still equal to the tal set. So for a mf the tal set in inferior,also what mfers do baal,meph is far more dependable for items then baal and alot easier to get 2.[/QUOTE]

The conclusion was that you will not get the tons of MF with Tal's, but compared to any other setup you will get the best combination of killing power and MF, when adding some GC Skillers to your set. With Skillers and Tal'S you can get +12 easily for your preferred trees and then you do not only equal damage but even more, due to the -xx% resist.

Have you crunched the numbers concerning killing power?
The more damage you do the more the -xx% will kick in. At +12 skills with Tals Set i noticed a really significant change in killing power, especially in the Fire tree!

When you can kill faster you will eb able to do more runs. With my switchsetup for Meph i get 409MF. Those added 100 to 500 would not really be necessary if you can kill faster ;)

[Zroc]

Heh, this post is still going...thanks for the props, guys ;)
FistOfHeaven: " However my sorc is pretty much solely for magic find runs and you cannot get near the mf using Tal set then using IstOccy(I use instead of hoto for the mf),PtopazShako."

Yes, I addressed that in the very first paragraph...you will get exactly 100% more magic find from ist'd occy and ptopazed shako than ist'd tal's armor and ptopazed tal's mask.

The rest of my post basically explains why I don't think 100% magic find is worth giving up everything I went into detail on in the rest of the post.
Yes, I could run 1200% magic find versus 1100% magic find, but is that worth almost doubling the time and risk of my runs?

In my opinion, no.
-------

Man, melinor...nice work ;) I might nab a couple fire skillers and dump a few 7% mf charms...

[melianor]

Some people just dotn get what you intended to say Zroc :cheesy:

Concerning the added damage. I would like to get hold of 2perfect Fire Facets and 2 perfect cold Facets, pushing the -xx% res to 25%. That would be an even higher improvment. Combine that setup with Skillers and you will just gap at the killing speed.
I never saw Meph dropping as fast as now with those Skillers added and using FB/Meteor. Comes up to the same speed as using FB/FO.

[big_aug]

Very good thread. Ive been a fan of the tal's set since i first tried it. Right now my sorc is almost 83.

Using full tals along with some mf and vita charms she has:
1386life
555mana
Max Block
Max Resists
312MF before switch
452mf after switch

She takes down meph quickly with meteor and fireball disposes of andy extremely fast. Orb for clearing

Also, I HIGHLY suggest that if you dont wanna put points in Energy shield as I didn't, you find a +2 sorc skill +2eshield orb. It works wonders. With that orb I have 8eshield with no points invested. Saving the 6 or so points that it takes to get eshield is very nice for meteorb who has to skimp for points.

[Stiertje]

Very good thread. Ive been a fan of the tal's set since i first tried it. Right now my sorc is almost 83.

Using full tals along with some mf and vita charms she has:
1386life
555mana
Max Block
Max Resists
312MF before switch
452mf after switch

She takes down meph quickly with meteor and fireball disposes of andy extremely fast. Orb for clearing

Also, I HIGHLY suggest that if you dont wanna put points in Energy shield as I didn't, you find a +2 sorc skill +2eshield orb. It works wonders. With that orb I have 8eshield with no points invested. Saving the 6 or so points that it takes to get eshield is very nice for meteorb who has to skimp for points.

Erm, Energy Shield and 555 mana, how does that combine? I mean, you're gonna have to swallow a lot of mana potions when you ever get hit. And with 1300+ life, full resist and full block it really isn't needed. I would say it's more inconvenient then usefull in most times.

[Zroc]

I hear ya, melinor ;) I like her how she is at the moment...remember, I run with a conviction pally, so I get a fat -150 resists all the time ;)

If I was making her a pure killer/rusher, I'd prolly go two fire facets/um in a headhunters, then two more in the armor and helm, then a cold facet in the orb. Then pile up skillers (both cold and fire)...she'd do some serious damage ;)

I agree with Stiertje...not enough mana for my taste. With that much life, I'd think SS/blocking. The pally I run with uses CTA, and I end up with 2000 life and mana, which makes it very convienent. 1000 mana is enough for me, imo, to run ES and get enough regen/fast-mana recovery from mana potion.

[Zroc]

Bump...friend wanted to see this.

[SaVe_ExIt_PlZ]

DAMN!!!! made me think again i might just go trd my hoto n shako for the tals mask n orb even though i probly have on e a mule...sumwhere :yawn: i guess ill have to go look

[Stormcryer]

She has about 72% block, ~240 mf, 1100 life, and about 750 mana. I have to say I enjoy the nearly 300 more life I have than previously. I seriously tried to use Magefists instead of Frosties, but I found myself running out of mana quickly when teleporting (Andy, Meph, Countess runs). So I had to switch back. Any ideas? I have like 500 mana using magefists.


Twin SOJ will bring mana regen up considerably. I use these for tele, and then switch off to dual nagels for the mf kill.

BTW My tal setup with a gheeds, switch to daul ist ali and rhyme shield, twin nagels, and a goldwrap (tal set remenants (armor [ptopazed], ammy, mask, and orb) tops out well into high 500s. I usually moat Meph, so I have a few seconds to switch off my gear, (which is either left back in town, or in my cube) before delivering teh final blow. I run with the pure MF gear when pit running as I always take my merc along for these run just for tanking.

[tooth]

Zroc, you never mentioned what equipment your merc uses. ;)

[PhoenixOmega]

Excellent work Zroc and others...bravo to the highest degree :winner:

Question...what is you guys' stance on blocking? I've got a ss currently so i could trade for pretty much any shield i wanted...but i want to know if blocking is worth the jazz? I have ~170 points in dex as it is (im lvl 87 also ;)) and i would hate to waste those points with a shield like lidless. Currently my ss is 67% blocking which translates to 55% due to the inverse effect of dex to blocking(weird). If I eld'd my ss i would have 74% blocking of which i would get the full 74%. Is this worth it? Am i a r3tard for wanting blocking? I already have 75% resists on all in hell.

I've got full tal set :uhhuh:
Sandstorm Trek
Magefists
couple bad rings :P

also...i have a 1.09 tal ammy...how can i tell when i trade if an ammy is 1.09 or 1.1?

[TonyDanza]

Also wouldn't Moser's Blessed Circle with two 5/5 fire facets also compliment Tal's Set nicely?

[biffo]

Excellent work Zroc and others...bravo to the highest degree :winner:

Question...what is you guys' stance on blocking? I've got a ss currently so i could trade for pretty much any shield i wanted...but i want to know if blocking is worth the jazz? I have ~170 points in dex as it is (im lvl 87 also ;)) and i would hate to waste those points with a shield like lidless. Currently my ss is 67% blocking which translates to 55% due to the inverse effect of dex to blocking(weird). If I eld'd my ss i would have 74% blocking of which i would get the full 74%. Is this worth it? Am i a r3tard for wanting blocking? I already have 75% resists on all in hell.

I've got full tal set :uhhuh:
Sandstorm Trek
Magefists
couple bad rings :P

also...i have a 1.09 tal ammy...how can i tell when i trade if an ammy is 1.09 or 1.1?

It depends on your play style, and what else, if anything, you need those dex points for, but blocking is definitely worth it. Personally, I like getting into the thick of it, and in that case you can't beat the SS. Max block + DR = you live! ;)

[tooth]

I think the points would be much better used in Vit and Energy, to make the use of ES even more efficient. 170 points in DEX is A LOT, and from my experience (lvl 94 sorc) you need a lot of health and mana, and you definetly need ES (if you want to stay alive). Just cause you block 75% of the time, doesn't mean they can't hit you 10 times out of 10, although you'd be dead on the 3rd or 4th hit :P

[John_Connor]

My old non-ladder sorc went the vit/nrg route, while my ladder meteorb sorc uses max block. In 1.09 I was perfectly happy with the vit/nrg setup, but I find it really annoying now. If I'm not mistaken, elemental damage is applied to your energy shield before resistances are taken into consideration, which basically means that any stray fireball/flaming arrow etc that hits you basically saps your mana. Most of it. If you get caught in a meteor or firewall for a couple seconds, your mana is gone. All of it, from my experience. This is with 1 ES and 1 telekinesis (and NO CTA, which might be the main problem - she has roughly 1000-1100 life and mana).

The SS with max block stops most arrows from hitting you, and when they do the only take away from your life after being reduced by your resistances, leaving your mana for casting spells. Plus the dmg reduction is sweet.

I'm thinking about using ES with my next sorc, but only with max telekinesis to reduce the obscene mana drain from elemental damage taken.

[tooth]

If i'm not mistaken blocking doesnt block magical attacks right?

[DarkY]

nice thread, found out same that Tal set is better (dmg on cold) then with shako/hoto
Got blizz sorc, 5.XXX dmg. Friend does 4XXX dmg.
The +1 on the orb and the +dmg do the trick

[melianor]

If i'm not mistaken blocking doesnt block magical attacks right?
Some magic attacks can be blocked. Among them are the succubus blood ball and the poison bolt from Andariel and a few others.
Blocking is mainly against ranged attackers and if you get unlucky, melee attackers.

[Zroc]

nice finds ;)

[savvyguy]

I think the points would be much better used in Vit and Energy, to make the use of ES even more efficient. 170 points in DEX is A LOT, and from my experience (lvl 94 sorc) you need a lot of health and mana, and you definetly need ES (if you want to stay alive). Just cause you block 75% of the time, doesn't mean they can't hit you 10 times out of 10, although you'd be dead on the 3rd or 4th hit :P

Sorry to bump this, but i was looking though it since i got my full tals set.

Chance to get hit 10/10 times with 75% chance to block:

(1/4)*(1/4)*...*(1/4) = (1/4)^10 = 0.00000095 = not bloody likely.

[melianor]

Sorry to bump this, but i was looking though it since i got my full tals set.

Chance to get hit 10/10 times with 75% chance to block:

(1/4)*(1/4)*...*(1/4) = (1/4)^10 = 0.00000095 = not bloody likely.

Nice added formula. To revive this a bit. Did we discuss what to socket into Tal's set here, besides MF runes and gems?

I just got hold of a -5/+x fire fact and -5/x lightning facet and dropped those into mask and orb. With this i now get -20% fire and lightning resistance on monsters. I would even go as far and get another -5 lightning facet.

apart from mf socketing i think facet are the best!

[savvyguy]

Nice added formula. To revive this a bit. Did we discuss what to socket into Tal's set here, besides MF runes and gems?

I just got hold of a -5/+x fire fact and -5/x lightning facet and dropped those into mask and orb. With this i now get -20% fire and lightning resistance on monsters. I would even go as far and get another -5 lightning facet.

apart from mf socketing i think facet are the best!

What build are you using that you need - light res??? A bit OT, but the talk of facets reminded me of a drunken night where i tried to get 2 sockets on a rare eth wire fleece, the dropped a poison facet in the 1 socket to help my mercs poison damage.... NOOBISH.

[melianor]

What build are you using that you need - light res??? A bit OT, but the talk of facets reminded me of a drunken night where i tried to get 2 sockets on a rare eth wire fleece, the dropped a poison facet in the 1 socket to help my mercs poison damage.... NOOBISH.
*lol* 8) Dont drink and play!

Archmage build. Meteor/CB/FO. Very nice. Soloed from Normal to Hell with a Defiance Merc. -20% Lightning res help alot to make 220 CB damage/bolt even better :)

[melianor]

Thought it to be interesting to post the full stats you get from Tal's Set. Not just the list from bnet, but all added together, so that one REALLY sees whats adding up here!

+6 Sorceress skills
-15% Fire resistance
-15% Lightning Resistance
+15% Cold damage
+1-2 Fire Mastery
+1-2 Lightning Mastery
+1-2 Cold Mastery
10% Life Stolen
10% Mana Stolen
+3-32 Lightning Damage

+50% Faster Cast Rate

+10 Energy
+20 Dexterity
+179 Mana
+317 Life (!)
+655 Defense

+95% Fire Resistance
+128% Lightning Resistance
+95% Cold Resistance
+55% Poison Resistance
Magic Damage reduced by 15
37% Damage taken goes to mana
Replenish Life +10
25% Faster Hit Recovery
+50 Defense vs. Missile

+163%-168% Magic Find

All this put together give you a much better view about how impressive Tal#s Set really is :D :teeth:

[McRhea]

I have a level 92 pure lightning sorc, and I have to say that Tals full set allows me to kill faster than a Shako/Occy/ViperMaji setup. It really does have great all around mods, and the -15% lightning res really help make the set shine.

[Fire-Syn]

Im totally with u,
I got : Tal full set with War trav, Magefist, 2 B-k rings, Troll nest.

And i got : Occy (Ist), Troll nest (P diamond), Skullder (P Top), Shako (P Top), The rising sun ammy, Goldwrap, War trav, Magefist and 2 B-k ring and 2 P Nagel (for mf).

I try each and...

Wow, the none Tal-Full set is so better than Tal full-set!!!

1st : More mf
2 : More fcr
3 : More + all skill
4 : More defense

But the only thing its better with Tal-Full set is there is more resistance

And the thing i hate the most of Tal rasha Full set is the ugly Mask!!!

[Darth Joe]

Thought it to be interesting to post the full stats you get from Tal's Set. Not just the list from bnet, but all added together, so that one REALLY sees whats adding up here!

+6 Sorceress skills
-15% Fire resistance
-15% Lightning Resistance
+15% Cold damage
+1-2 Fire Mastery
+1-2 Lightning Mastery
+1-2 Cold Mastery
10% Life Stolen
10% Mana Stolen
+3-32 Lightning Damage

+50% Faster Cast Rate

+10 Energy
+20 Dexterity
+179 Mana
+317 Life (!)
+655 Defense

+95% Fire Resistance
+128% Lightning Resistance
+95% Cold Resistance
+55% Poison Resistance
Magic Damage reduced by 15
37% Damage taken goes to mana
Replenish Life +10
25% Faster Hit Recovery
+50 Defense vs. Missile

+163%-168% Magic Find

All this put together give you a much better view about how impressive Tal#s Set really is :D :teeth:

My current setup is:

Maras
Shako
Occy
Arachnid Mesh
Enigma

This gives the possibility of:

+10 Skills
+1 to Teleport

+148 Life
+148 Mana
+27 Vitality
+27 Energy
+81 Strength

50% Faster Cast Rate
199% MF
49% Resist All
18% Damage Reduction
45% Faster Run/Walk
10% Slower Stamina Drain

+5 Mana/Kill
+14 Life/Kill
15% Damage to Mana
5% Maximum Mana
5% Maximum Life

140% Enhanced Defense
+775 Defense

Lvl 3 Venom Charges



The extra +4 to Skills is nice, especially since I use a Tri-Elemental Sorc. The downside is, I'm giving up a lot of resists, especially to lightning (ouch).

Cast Rate is even with both setups.

The minus resists and + to masteries of Tal's is nice, but doesn't the extra +4 to Skills make up for that when applied to masteries?

You get more life with Tal's, which is awesome. You get more Strength with my setup, which allows you to put more points into vitality or energy if you want to use a shield that requires a lot of Strength, like Storm Shield. So, all in all, I would say the + to attributes and stats is pretty even, depending on what you're looking for. Defense is nearly equal.

MF is pretty even with both setups.

Damage to mana is pretty equal, if you consider the extra +4 to skills, with a point in Energy Shield.

Tal's has no physical damage reduction...my setup has 18%. However, Tal's does have magical damage reduction. So, I would say that's pretty even as well.

Tal's has replenish life, defense vs. missiles, and FHR...my setup has faster run/walk, mana/kill, life/kill, and % to max mana & life. Truthfully, I would rather have the FHR, def. vs. missiles and replenish life...it's a lot more efficient and effective.

Overall, I would have to say that neither setup really has an advantage over the other when it comes down to gameplay. It all really boils down to personal preference, and style. Myself, I don't use Tal's because it seems to be the 1.10 Sorc fad on US West, and I've always been one to go against the grain, and stray from the norm and what is popular. I enjoy having my Sorc look original and unique (and you have this option depending on what armor you use for enigma).

[melianor]

The extra +4 to Skills is nice, especially since I use a Tri-Elemental Sorc. The downside is, I'm giving up a lot of resists, especially to lightning (ouch).


Aehm, just Tal's Set is +6 skills. But you will not only wear that. Add Lidless, add 2 Soj, Annihilus and you are equal with +10.

-15% Fire and lightning resistances + 2 Masteries is absolutly equal to +3 skills (!) in terms of damage. Add another fire and lightning facet and you are way over top in damage and get all the benefits form Tal's. PDR should not matter that much for a Sorc.

Your setup looks good though, but i'd still prefer Tal's over any of those setups :) +life +mana +resists maxed, what can a sorc want more *g*

-xx% resistances is always better than maxing your damage. combine both and damage gets real crazy. Like with adding skillers 8)

[Darth Joe]

Aehm, just Tal's Set is +6 skills. But you will not only wear that. Add Lidless, add 2 Soj, Annihilus and you are equal with +10.

If you add lidless, 2 SOJ's, and annihilus to my setup, that gives you a total of +14 to skills. ;)

Your setup looks good though, but i'd still prefer Tal's over any of those setups :) +life +mana +resists maxed, what can a sorc want more *g*

As stated in my above post, life and mana end up being pretty equal when considering the points you save in Strength. However, the one place where Tal's does outshine my setup is resists. This one thing could very well be the determining factor for many people, but you could always swap Enigma for CoH and gain an extra 65% to resists, and make up the difference with a few charms...keeping the +2 to skills, but sacrificing MF. ;)

[melianor]

If you add lidless, 2 SOJ's, and annihilus to my setup, that gives you a total of +14 to skills. ;)



As stated in my above post, life and mana end up being pretty equal when considering the points you save in Strength. However, the one place where Tal's does outshine my setup is resists. This one thing could very well be the determining factor for many people, but you could always swap Enigma for CoH and gain an extra 65% to resists, and make up the difference with a few charms...keeping the +2 to skills, but sacrificing MF. ;)

Oh yeah, sorry my bad about the +skills. Still effectivly you are only losing +1 skills since -15% fire/lightning res + +2 masteries from the orb equal +3 skills. Add another 2 facets and you are equal! :)

Otherwise just like you said. Pretty equal apart from resistances. But you should be covered if you manage to attain at least 75% Lightning resistance.

[fhpchris]

I hope you do not mind if I pick you apart...


Here's my gear:
-Ist'd Tal Orb
-Ptopazed Tal Mask and armor
-Tal's belt and ammy
-Now running a Um/Ist/Ist Headhunter's shield
-2 sojs
-38 chance guards, 48 war travs
-Anni, 40% gheeds, and 20 7% mf charms
-Weapon switch: dual-ist'd Baba and 3-isted Headhunters


You have:
FCR:50(37% 10 Frame BP :uhhuh: )
FBR:0(0% 9 frame BP)
FHR:25%(20% 11 Frame BP :uhhuh: )
%PDR:0(!!! :scratch: )

At least in Player vs Player the 63% FCR BP and 86% FHR BP are pretty standard, and your gear isnt even close.

Player vs Monster is not much different. You WILL get stunlocked and die, many more times to Black souls and Frenzytaurs(?), and I'm not even pointing out the extra fast extra strong conviction enchanted boss packs I have seen.

Just this morning I saw 3 single-tree Full Tals Sorcs (two cold, one fire) that were over level 85 die to a champion boss pack of black souls while entering the Worldstone chamber, and that isn’t even including the barbs and palla that died too.

Because My Sorc (only one with her body in an 8 player game) used NON-TALS gear, everyone in the party got their bodies back...

I even killed the *ALL* the cold immunes (8 player cold immunes mind you). Without static field.(Blizzard Sorc, cold tree only, level 91 UsEast Ladder).


Again, though, I choose energy shield over max block. I just like it better, even with just a single point in it and only one in telekinesis.

What all that means on my character screen is:
With Tal's, I have 1147 life, 873 mana

Just wow. I know of People on East that use 15/70s and max energy shield that have 5000 mana, and that is not a typo. There are legit duelers on Europe with over 2.5K that have max energy shield and max TK.

You have 873. Not only that but every point of damage takes 1.9375 mana, meaning you can absorb 451 damage with your mana

At level 11 ES, 61% is absorbed, meaning when you take 738+ damage you have lost all of your mana, assuming it was full to begin with. I'm not even going to go into what poison damage does to you.

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Last thing. You Baal with a Pally with max conviction. For every single calculation you have done for Baal, Baal's 50 resists will go to -100 with conviction, making the mods of Tals orb worthless...

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Almost forgot to post it, to further bash all HotO, Shako and Enigma/CoH users,

To further Bash all Tals set users, the +14 all skills that Darth Joe has will stack with Battle orders on a Call to Arms Flail, giving a significant boost in life/mana :thumbsup:, + Sorceress skills do not. We are talking +6 to +10 that he has that tals users do not. I'm not even going into the discussion we can have about how that lets him get max %PDR and max blocking using Stormshield while having more life, more mana, and better resists, and more FBR(5 frame of Shaeled SS) than you do. My level 93 old ladder sorc had over 1500 life and 1100 mana easily with a +3 Flail...

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You point out that Tals set has lots of resistances on it. Most good high level characters will just use charms to get what they lack, and I personally use a Stormshield... It really gets to be pretty even.

For the record I will be using snowclash and a Loed Shako to have 90 Lightning/90 Cold resist...

There is a big difference between 3/4 and 9/10 when you are taking damage.
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i tryed it and then tryed deaths fathom, its a lot better then doom

A -60 resist Doom gives +2 all skills, Holy freeze, and -60 enemy resists.
Have you seen a WW assassin Tele-WW into a holy freeze + Stormshield Sorceress? Compare that to what happens when that happens to you, your lack of blocking lets them hit you with venom easily, if they dont kill you with physical damage first.

A Stormshield alone will let you Live, and I’m not going to mention Chargers and other melee characters that can get near you.

Wait you don’t PvP

Luckily, there are monsters in the game that can surround you as fast as you see them, and they will all stun you until you are dead. Just look at almost any extra fast, extra strong, finat enchanted Boss pack you see in the chaos sanctuary or in Act 5 on the way to baal.

Many people on this forum say:

"I am not a melee character so I just tele away"

1) If you are stunlocked from having only 25%FHR you cant tele away.
2) When a baal game is all sorcies, and everyone just "teles away" they just scatter the monsters all over the level, making it near impossible to even stay alive, even for us Non-Tal set users.

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1) Griffons Eye blows away full tals set. Its not even close.


How true.

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Conclusion
Tals set isn’t crappy itself, it is crappy by people like you socketing it with perfect topazes instead of the shaels, facets, and etc that could make your Sorceress stronger and live longer.

It is crappy by people using Head hunters instead of whitsans(blocking) or lidless(FCR NEEDED for Breakpoint and the +skill).

You can easily get your resists else where, using whitsans Umed, and Uming your tals stuff(Just not the orb!) or just simply using charms like the good P vs Pers do.

You mention the damage of your fireball, but you ignore you have one of the slowest casting rates. GG. You do 15% more damage(to baal only) than the non tals Sorc that has 105% FCR. For every 8 fireballs you cast he casts 10. I wont mention teleporting speed, and how getting the FCR breakpoint keeps you from getting stunlocked while teleporting to baal.

I like how you ignore %PDR, depending on a record low 870~ mana energy shield, and a 1 point TK. I wont even mention mana burn monsters or poison, because if you take even 800 damage (Total!) all of your mana is gone. GG you get stunlocked because you cant teleport away or just get lucky and scatter all the monsters on the level. Total waste of the Pre-requisite skills too, and you are a dual-tree Sorc. Those worthless skill points really cripple you.

You could have Full tals, and still hit the Breakpoints, but you will sacrifice magic find of your Travs and your topazes, and your shield...

That is probably why you were called a nub. Imho anyway.

-Chris

[Icy]

Just curious but what would you consider to be ideal gear for your Blizzard sorceress?

Also, killing 8 player cold immunes must've taken some patience with only a Might mercenary (I assume) and no Static Field. Congrats! :thumbsup:

[spencerjrus]

tals set rocks, nuff said.

[fhpchris]

Just curious but what would you consider to be ideal gear for your Blizzard sorceress?

Also, killing 8 player cold immunes must've taken some patience with only a Might mercenary (I assume) and no Static Field. Congrats! :thumbsup:

He is actually Holy Freeze, But sometimes I use a Might Merc.

This Gear setup obeys Europe PvP rules, in that it does not have more than 15% cold damage total or 2 5/5 Cold Facets.

If you want the fastest casting BP, much of your gear is locked in.
Hoto 40
Arach 20
Viper Magi upped 30
Trang gloves or magefists 20
-------------------------------
110% FCR

If you use a +3 Blizzard Ormus' Robes, you need to use a 10% FCR ring with +stats and +mana instead of an SOJ.


I feel you need:
86% FHR for 7 frame BP
at least 27% FBR for 6 frame BP
105% FCR for 8 frame BP


If you want to only use 63% FCR that is an option that will give you much more virsitility in your gear.

Hoto
15% Nightwings, Loed
35% Vipermagi upped and Shaeled
30% Maras
2x Sojes
Eth 15/15/70 Treks
Arach
Trang Gloves for stacked cold resist
Stormshield, possible Shaeled to get the 5 Frame FBR BP.
4 12%FHR/ Cold Skillers
6 Cold skillers with +life
9 Mix and match Resist/Life/Mana SCs
1 20/20/10 anni
+6 Bo CTA/Lidless on switch

*Using Whitsans or an upped Visceraunt is an option.
*Death's Fathom is an option if you do not mind the 63% FCR BP.
(only 15% Death's Fathoms are allowed by the rules)
*Using a shako/Enigma/CoH is fine assuming you shael the Shako or use charms for FHR.
*Dont be afraid to 'Ber' the shako or armor to reach max % PDR, but never have less than 86% FHR.
* use 156 base strength with your anni, allowing a 20/-20 shield or a 4x ptopaz shield for Foh pallys or whenever you need it.
*Mfing get the FCR/FHR use 50% travs, 40% chanceguards, 100% 4xIST monarch, and Enigma for ~300MF. Much more MF than this looks good but is statisticly worthless for finding items and even worse for finding runes.
*Dont use MF gear for hell Baal runs assuming you want to get to level 99.
stronger gear keeps you alive, lets you do more runs faster(finding more items and runes) and Lets you defend yourself if hostiled. Which might not matter to you, but to some Hardcore people can be important.

Stats for using stormshield
Str: 136 base (20 anni)
Dex: Table Below - 20 of your anni

|---------------------------------| Character Level
|---- Shield (Chance to Block)-----| 75----80----85----90----95----99
|---------------------------------+------------------------------
|---------------------------------| Dexterity Needed
|Whinstan's Guard (87%)----------| 145---153---162---171---179---186
|Viscerataunt Heater (72%)-------| 172---182---193---203---213---222
|Stormshield (67%)----------------| 183---195---206---217---228---237
|Sanctuary Tower Shield (64%)----| 191---203---215---226---238---248
|Sanctuary Monarch (62%)--------| 197---209---221---233---245---255
|Sanctuary Troll Nest (60%)-------| 203---215---228---240---253---262
|Sanctuary Dragon Shield (58%)---| 209---222---235---248---261---272

Vit: Rest
Energy: none, ever.

Just mix and match the attributes you want or need, but make sure your character hits these BPs...

-Chris

[Herald of Doom]

I
At least in Player vs Player the 63% FCR BP and 86% FHR BP are pretty standard, and your gear isnt even close.
Luckily, there are monsters in the game that can surround you as fast as you see them, and they will all stun you until you are dead. Just look at almost any extra fast, extra strong, finat enchanted Boss pack you see in the chaos sanctuary or in Act 5 on the way to baal. If you are stunlocked from having only 25%FHR you cant tele away.


Conclusion
Tals set isn’t crappy itself, it is crappy by people like you socketing it with perfect topazes instead of the shaels, facets, and etc that could make your Sorceress stronger and live longer.



For PvM the 63 fcr is a must, but the 86fhr certainly isn't. 27 or in the most extreme cases 48, because those very fast and very hardhitting monsters are very rare and you would need to sack a lot for the fhr (either sockets or inventory spaces). The sorc I use has very, very low fhr and I haven't died with her as long as I remember. And I couldn't agree more with the conclusion, putting a topaz in armor+helm is a shame. My ladder1 sorc had a shael in the helm and 5/5 facet in the armor, which is way better then two lousy topazes.

HoD

[sharp-bow]

K, I'm going to go crazy if tal's full set is better than my setup but oh well... Right now i am using :

Nightwings, Hoto, Coh, mara's, 2 soj, treks boots, magefist and arachnids.

With 8 more fire charms and anni I do 12k fireball, 27k meteor, 540ish frozen orb. Fire skills are like 43 i think and cold is thirty something so i can't really see the full tal set being better than that. Got full resists, max block, 800+ life, cast pretty quick. Only thing is i got no mf basically lol.

Just really hoping that does better than a tal's setup, or basically any other setup for meteorb sorc.

[fhpchris]

K, I'm going to go crazy if tal's full set is better than my setup but oh well... Right now i am using :

Nightwings, Hoto, Coh, mara's, 2 soj, treks boots, magefist and arachnids.

With 8 more fire charms and anni I do 12k fireball, 27k meteor, 540ish frozen orb. Fire skills are like 43 i think and cold is thirty something so i can't really see the full tal set being better than that. Got full resists, max block, 800+ life, cast pretty quick. Only thing is i got no mf basically lol.

Just really hoping that does better than a tal's setup, or basically any other setup for meteorb sorc.

You only need a CTA!. You do very nice damage for a dual tree sorc too.

You can sacrifice some FHR if you are MFing something easy like pindle or meph, but if you are trying to level in the game to high 90s, not having FHR on a sorc can easily get you killed to Black souls. I dont even mean the champion ones or the boss packs .

Not having the FHR is bad when you are fighting lister(as a fire sorc even worse) and those black souls somehow find thier way into the chamber and kill 1/2 your party. It could get even worse if Lister is aura enchanted along with some of the black souls.

I'll take my 86% FHR. I do not plan to die while at level 92+. I guess that Herald of Doom is somewhat right in the fact that that much FHR isnt a MUST for PvM, but I say that during some of the worst parts of the game, it is something that will keep you alive. In my book that makes it a must.

-Chris

[savvyguy]

For PvM the 63 fcr is a must, but the 86fhr certainly isn't. 27 or in the most extreme cases 48, because those very fast and very hardhitting monsters are very rare and you would need to sack a lot for the fhr (either sockets or inventory spaces). The sorc I use has very, very low fhr and I haven't died with her as long as I remember. And I couldn't agree more with the conclusion, putting a topaz in armor+helm is a shame. My ladder1 sorc had a shael in the helm and 5/5 facet in the armor, which is way better then two lousy topazes.

HoD

If you use your tals sorc to mf, why wouldn't you put 2x ptopaz in the armor/helm and ist in the orb....? Tals set is the sorc MF setup, using it to pvp is just silly, so why not juice out your MF?

[fhpchris]

If you use your tals sorc to mf, why wouldn't you put 2x ptopaz in the armor/helm and ist in the orb....? Tals set is the sorc MF setup, using it to pvp is just silly, so why not juice out your MF?

Because the ~50 magic find you are adding does nothing when you already have over 500, and over 700 on switch..., however facets and shaels and etc can make a large difference in killing speed.

Killing speed always is better than magic find becuase magic find has diminishing returns and killing speed does not.

200MF 36 second hell meph > tals 700MF 70 second hell meph

Speed is much more important. Living through the run is too btw :P.