Woah.. Best Mf ever

[grauengel]

I must say, last night was by far my best ever for mf results. I got kind of bored of mfing meph and get zero results.. litterally i couldn't get hell meph to drop a unquie if i slept with him. so after 100 meph runs of nothing, i decided to try out pindle - seeing as all my friends seem to like him. ( never liked him since you have to kill him like 500 times to get a good item : ) so i decided to mf him for an hour to get rares in hopes of getting a nice ethereal to upgrade. anyhow i farmed him for 75 runs.. and i was simply amazed at what he gave me.. and all with such great stats too

6% arreat
250% godfather
8% windforce
2 gaze
valor (didnt id)
levi 23%dr 44str
25% mara
tal armor
unik ogre gloves which turned out to be really nice stats.. 60% with 17 str i think
and those new asn boots with 24dex, 97%ed and +2skills

all that from 72 runs.. gosh all i can say is, screw meph, pindle is my new mf toy :D

[annr]

litterally i couldn't get hell meph to drop a unquie if i slept with him.


i seriously lol'ed there

[Corndog]

Congrats on the great run. Mf is based mostly on luck. Hopefully your luck will continue. I havent found that many good unique or set from Pindle in my hundreds (as in many hundreds) of runs. A few keepers here and there but nothing close to what you,ve found in 72 runs.

[grauengel]

yah ive been mfing him some more and im still finding great :D and i checked my steelrends, and they are 60%ed 19str! :D

[Dahkar]

Any average player couldnt expect pindle to drop that in 2000 runs! GJ

[Prez]

Sounds like a fish story to me...

I CAUGHT one this BIG.... (holding up hand spread wide apart!)

I seriously doubt you found all those godly, perfect stat elites in 75 (or was it 72? Better work on your story a bit more!) mf runs. Why some people feel the need to lie about stuff like that confounds me. To get attention I suspect. :scratch:

Prez

edit: Meph wouldn't drop if you slept with him...? If thats the case, what did you do for pindle? :surprise:

[Matt]

a 250% godfather eh? ;)

Wow, if you did find all that in 72 runs, congratulations, I am impressed, however, I must agree with Prez, thats a LOT of stuff, and all with near perfect stats for 72 pindle runs, no judgment here though.

-Matt

[STINGER]

Sounds like a fish story to me...

I CAUGHT one this BIG.... (holding up hand spread wide apart!)

I seriously doubt you found all those godly, perfect stat elites in 75 mf runs. Why some people feel the need to lie about stuff like that confounds me. To get attention I suspect.

Prez

Damn dude, did you give up smoking, drinking, crack, or did someone piss in your Cheerios?

[tootootoofar]

Just wondering...How much MF did u have?

[LuckyDwarf]

Damn dude, did you give up smoking, drinking, crack, or did someone piss in your Cheerios?

Look at his history of posts. He's always like that.

Lucky

[Prez]

Lucky
I'm not "always like that". I simply call a spade a spade. If you can't tell the truth than expect to get flammed.

This doesn't even qualify as a good lie...

How many perfect arreats, perfect grandfathers, perfect windforces, near perfect steelrends, etc have you found? Not to mention he found them in 75 or 72 runs off pindle. So if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck...it must be a duck!

Prez

[Dahkar]

Yeah, an example of a good lie is: Luckydwarf does not want to sleep with Dahkar!

[Corndog]

I wasnt nearly as direct as Prez, but I guess that was my point exactly. You could easily add a 0 to the runs he has done and I probably have exceeded that pretty easily and have less good finds from Pindle then him. I just for the facts have 407 MF.

[ventilator]

Ok, assuming he's got 700%MF the chances to drop from pindle when you kill him for the items he found are as follows according to the diablo2.de drop calc:

Arreat's Face: 1:21788
The Grandfather: 1:18109
Windforce: 1:18109
Vampire Gaze: 1:16510
Arkaine's Valor: 1:15155
lLeviathan: 1:11138
Mara's: 1:30453
Tal armor: 1:5114
Steelrend: 1:20899
Shadow Dancer: 1:20899

This sounds very reasonable to me and fits in with my observations in around 2k pindleruns as well. Who are you to call him out when you probably haven't even tried the item fountain that is called pindle yourself? Tstststs

[Randal.Flag]

Prez is right, I would say anyone who has run pindle knows what he can and will drop. I would rather believe a dual gf drop than that story. :)

[STINGER]

Ok, I understand the "unlikelyness" of these numbers and findings but its not a good thing to flat out accuse peeps of stuff over his post. Drops anymore dont suprise me in the least, i have had soooooo much crap fall that never fell for me before and multiples I had only had fall once before.

My comment basically to Prez was tieing this thread and another about duped runes together. Neither of these posts warranted the aqusations, but I see no reason that a "quiet suspision" wouldnt be appropriate or a query into things.

Hell, i would be the first person to smack down on someone with an obvious lie or lameness, or dupe issue but ........wow!

[STINGER]

You can throw big odds around all you want, but boil it down to simple facts "chit happens" and I see no basis to accuse!

[TopheavyHookjaw]

Take it as you wish.

The fact is it could be a lie...or it could be true and we'll never know for sure.

Is it possible, hell ya. I've been in Vegas and watched a guy roll 7 14 times in a row. It was pretty damn amazing ... and that was with 0% MF :lol:

After all, some people do win the powerball and the odds there are pretty damn astronomical.

As one of my stats professors was so found of saying, "Possibility and probability are not the same thing."

Is is happy hour yet? :drink:

[BaNiSeR]

nice, assuming he did that, which is possable truth be told, then why hacnt i even found a single set/unique in the ancient tunnels in all the runs of them ive done lol

the only reasons i go there are:
-no ranged attackers

-great EXP for my assasin...i got her to 80 just running to the tunnels and then the tunnels them selves

-suposably a tc85 area or whatever tis called

-suposable a good droping area, oh well, revert back to number two on why i go here :P

-oh, did i mention no range dattackers??

now i have a couple reasons to not go there and to do the pits instead:
-often times lightning immunes

-crap drops for me

hmm, i guess thats it, ah well, ill keep on killing them tunnel dwelers! no way is my assasin sleeping with meph or worse with pindle to get good items! lol

[Prez]

I'd say this qualifies in the "obvious lie" catagory.

Besides, we aren't just talking about the odds of getting these items...we are talking then about getting a PERFECT stat item. How many GF's have to drop to get a perfect one? So the odds keep piling up.

Basically anyone that believes this guy probably still believes in the tooth fairy, white knights, santa clause, and happily ever afters...

Get real folks.

Prez

[stemis516]

i dont know what to believe here, sounds suspicious but still u cant prove him wrong

but i do know one thing is 100% fact....prez is a dick

[BaNiSeR]

not really.

Prez strikes me as a man who knows what he believes and sticks to his guns.

if that constitutes him a dick, well im not going to judge...

[stemis516]

well baniser, i believe prez is a dick and im sticking to my guns on that one


dont really want a flame war here, just giving my observations

[doubleOObubble]

Prez is right. Maybe he could benefit from a smoother way to convey his "rightness" though.

(*cheers secretly for Prez for standing up for reality*)

[Randal.Flag]

I've done thousands of pindle runs in 1.10 ladder and I guarantee this is bull. But I've found out some weird things, not sure if it's all in my mind or is it some actual bnet hidden base mf thing. Somethings you can run pindle for dozen of minutes or an hour and not get ****. I mean seriously, not even _crappy_ uniques, and on some periods you get much more color than usual in several runs (and using the same mf I might add). But elites, elites are allways hard to get, and specially the sets and uniques. Never gotten a gf, or a steelrend either, in fact everyone of those items on that list are hard to come by. If you get one gf in 7x runs you consider yourself lucky.

But, pindle is a good dropper, don't get me wrong... but it's a lot of work, boring work :D Also, I wasn't even kidding when I said I would rather believe the story about dual gf drop, that's just one grazy drop, but continuous streak of that kind... well anyone who knows anything about statistics could tell you a thing or two about those, you can't throw a coin 100 times and get 90 heads. ;) BUT HEY! It's possible(!!!!), getting 100 GF's from from 100 runs is also possible... would you believe that then? I've drawn my line.

Anyone else noticed that you get lucky or unlucky streaks sometimes?

[Prez]

Based on past experiences, I would have expected something a bit more insightful from you stemis. Instead we get a weak minded, uneducated, immature commentary.

I'll give you a chance for a "do over" if you would like to provide something useful to this thread.

I'll help a little since you seem to need guidance. Try formulating an argument based on logic, common sense and past experiences. Analogies can be very persuasive since most can relate to simple examples.

Hint: Using derogatory terms only serves to negate most of what you say and can actually be beneficial to your adversary.

Goodluck,

Prez

[Silkweed]

Prez,

It's not impossible that he found all that stuff off Pindle, so unless you can prove that he didn't, you have no grounds to accuse him of lying. Besides, why would he bother to make a thread about some great stuff he didn't find? This is just the time you accused that summoner guy of used duped runes because he had some runewords (weren't even enigma or BoTD). Stop jumping to conclusions just because something's unlikely or improbable.

I suppose that if I were to guess my way around a few places in a game with you, you'd accuse me of using maphack as well.

The exact expression is "if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck...chances are, it's a duck!"

[Randal.Flag]

Britney Spears gave me a bj while I was running pindle. Then she had to run of to a concert or something :/

[Omikron8]

That's extremly impressive for the amount of runs that you did (500). I read a post a while back of someone with 500 or 600 mf or so in 1.09 who ran him over 2000 times and the best item he found was a skull collector. With pindle it is WAY too much about luck and i would rather run the pit because pindle and friends charge for around 24621515 damage now.

[BaNiSeR]

yeah, that charge is the only thing keeping my assasin from running him :(

it really really does HURT!

[TopheavyHookjaw]

Let's keep things straight here.

Possible is not Probable. I don't care what the odds are, the fact is that there is one chance in (insert number here) that any given event (or chain of given events in this case) can happen.

I agree, I look at the post with some degree of skepticism. However, I have to acknowledge that it is possible. I think that the author may have been guilty of perhaps exaggerating the stats or at least rounding up a bit.

After all, the post reads the BEST MF EVER...not my average drops from (insert number here) Pindle runs.

Case and point. Not to far back a woman won the state lottery. She then bought another set of tickets the next week and won it again. That to me is pretty damn amazing luck...and it definately happened.

As for sticking to logic. Try reviewing your basic statistics. It is possible...period.

[Flyte]

The elitism in this forum absolutely sickens me. Not only are the "less worthy" forumers already alienated from the spam-ridden "Isle of Misfit Players" threads, people who post about their MF runs are considered to be liars if they aren't well known here. No one ever accused "well known" people of lying when they found godly items off Andy in 50 runs, yet they accuse those whose names they have not yet seen (who also have fewer posts). Do you people not know about something called "luck"? Granted, I doubt the accuracy of the poster, but it is possible, regardless of the odds, as TopheavyHookjaw has mentioned.

It makes me wonder why anyone hasn't questioned the validity of the MF runs of "famous" forumers here. Hell, it makes me speculate if some of you actually are 6'6", 275-pound males (I'm not going to name anyone here).

[Cleglaw_Himself]

Well its possible that he found all those items off pindle in 72 runs.

Insanely lucky, but possible. Also, maybe the first 300 runs didn't count, but the last 72 netted that stash.

I mean, after all, I found stormshield in 1 run...

[Spero]

I agree with Prez 100%. And I don't think he's being a jerk either.

No way did this happen.

If the guy got all this stuff overnight, he most likely mfed on Ebay. :idea:

ps. I also don't believe the post about getting favors from Britney during mf runs!

:lol:

[Tinfoot]

... I've been in Vegas and watched a guy roll 7 14 times in a row. It was pretty damn amazing ... and that was with 0% MF :lol:

LMAO!! I nearly busted a gut when I read this - good thing I stopped myself in time as I work on a call-center floor. :shhh:

All in all tho, does it truly matter save give peeps something to jabber about, whether negative or otherwise? If it truly happened, great, doesn't really impact anyone. If its just a drunken crowing of self-imagined grandeur... well, it once again kinda really doesn't effect anyone... :p

Anyhoo, is Britney going to be back later around Pindel, Randal.Flag? :D

[stemis516]

Prez im sry buddy but if u want logic ill give it to you

u cant say for sure that he is lying...sure i agree with you it is very unlikely and suspicious but it is still "possible"

now like i said, i agreed with u that he's lying but im not all up in his face calling him a liar becasue it IS still POSSIBLE to happen

just tongiht i ran pindle a bit, 5 runs to be exact, 450+ mf and i found shako 1 run, and then a GF....but wait in only 5 runs??? now if i use prez's logic then i am an "obvious liar" but whether u believe me or not i know what i found and i saw them drop

now yes i was an ******* by just flaming you like that but i think it was well deserved, becasue well in that situation u acted like a dick...others agreed with me here...so basically i acted hypocritically and gave u a dose of ur own medicine....take it or leave it

but the bottom line is sure u could be lying like u say...but he also couldve have gotten these items in the number of runs he claims....no one will know except him

[0takuPryd3]

I've had an unlucky streak since I've started doing Pindle. I've run him at least 200 times , which isn't such a stupendous number for running Pindle. Still, the only thing I've picked up are full rejuvs, Mav's armor (only because I'd never found it before) and a lidless wall. I keep hoping for a green lacquered plate or the like, but it never happens. I've done several dozen AT runs and got one shako from the chest and a nosferatu's coil (which is a really sucky belt). Meph has dropped me all of two shakos in many, many runs. It's odd to think that most of my wealth came from NM Andy/Hell Andy when I only ran them with my old sorceress when she couldn't do the upper-level areas yet.

[STINGER]

Prez, on this one you are just being an *******..........simply accusing with not even a sliver of "fact".

"common sense" tells us many things!

Feast or famine
**** happens
Innocent until proven guilty and even after that you might get off if somebody screws up.
If the gloove dont fit you must aquit!

Pull yourself together dude, only one person is acting childish in this thread that I can prove and its you!

The original guy MIGHT be acting childish by lieing or "cooking up" the numbers to make it look good but nobody can has proof to discredit the statement!

Ever found a SOJ at lvl 27 in a chest in Act 5 Norm with no MF? Hoark a Shaft and a wizzy from 2 of 3 bosses in one battle? Run Meph with little to no MF and get high end item run after run after run? I have done all of these and some people might call me a lier, hell i cant prove any of it anyway but I assure you it is fact.

I am living proof 50 MF RULES!!! Go go SIGS!!!

[PhatTrumpet]

If the gloove dont fit you must aquit!
Ladies and gentlemen of the supposed jury, Chef's attorney would certainly want you to believe that his client wrote "Stinky Britches" ten years ago. And they make a good case. Hell, I almost felt pity myself!

But ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk, but Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now, think about that. That does not make sense! Why would a Wookiee - an eight foot tall Wookiee - want to live on Endor with a bunch of two foot tall Ewoks? That does not make sense!

What does that have to do with this case? Nothing. Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case! It does not make sense!

Look at me, I'm a lawyer defending a major record company, and I'm talkin' about Chewbacca. Does that make sense? Ladies and gentlemen, I am not making any sense. None of this makes sense.

And so you have to remember, when you're in that jury room deliberating and conjugating the Emancipation Proclamation... does it make sense? No! Ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, it does not make sense.

None of this makes sense.

If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit! The defense rests.

[Mad Merlin]

Arreat's Face: 1:21788 (~0.0000458)
The Grandfather: 1:18109 (~0.0000552)
Windforce: 1:18109 (~0.0000552)
Vampire Gaze: 1:16510 (~0.0000605)
Arkaine's Valor: 1:15155 (~0.0000659)
Leviathan: 1:11138 (~0.0000897)
Mara's: 1:30453 (~0.0000328)
Tal armor: 1:5114 (~0.0001955)
Steelrend: 1:20899 (~0.0000478)
Shadow Dancer: 1:20899 (~0.0000478)

Using the above odds, you get an relative probability of 0.00069669 to get one of those items per special item drop of pindle, and a 0.9993033 probability of getting none of them. Assuming 2 of these per run and 75 runs, which is 150 chances total. This yields a (1 - 0.9993033^150) or 0.09926068 chance to find one of the above items in 75 runs. Now, to find any one (not necessarily the same one each time) of the items from the above set ten times would yield a probability of (0.09926068)^10 or 0.00000000009284799.

To those that didn't follow the above, that works out to roughly a 0.000000009284799% chance of finding the 10 items above. However, that is a generous number, because it disregards the different probabilities of finding each item (because I'd like to sleep soon) and the stats on each (see previous excuse). Now, I don't know about you, but I won't be betting the house on a 0.000000009284799% (1:10,770,292,734) chance, make your own decisions.

Disclaimer: All of the above numbers have been rounded or truncated to display above, 12 digit precision has been used in the actual calculations.

[graycloud]

the original poster can't prove he found those items in 75 runs either. it works both ways.

i can say i found tyreal's might, templar's might, zod, vex, ber, 3 ohms, an soj, and a perfect ethereal hoz in 25 baal runs. its possible, yeah. its also possible lightning will strike you're deficating outside when you're camping and afterward a tornado comes and sweeps away your body after being pelted with baseball sized hail for 45 seconds. and to top it off, at the end you live to tell the tale.

possible, but unlikely. unless the original poster has proof, theres no real reason to believe something so absurd. read it, laugh, move on.

[Prez]

stinger: plz refer to my previous post #26 that I directed at stemis. Personal attacks only serve to negate any point that you might be trying to make.

I found this thread interesting in many ways. Mostly it served as reminder that some people will "buy" any cooked story. No matter how outlandish, with no regard to their own intuition, intelligence and experience, simply because they have no direct "proof" otherwise. While this point of view is admirable in many ways, simple common sense must prevail at some point.

Many have said that there is a difference between something being possible and and being probable. I agree. But at a point, something becomes so improbably as to be impossible, and this "mf story" crossed that line.

Use your wits people, god gave them to you, try not to waste them. Independent thought is not a crime. People lie everyday, many do it with no real reason other than they can, with nothing to be gained.

It's easy to call me names and show righteous indignation. "How dare he call him a liar" , "You have no proof" show up more than once. I have a news flash for some of you...that's the way life works. I own a company and can fire/hire at will. Do I always have direct proof that someone is parked at McDonalds screwing off? No. But at the end of the week, when what needed to get done didn't, it's pretty obvious. I make decisons everyday based on that type of reasoning, as does every other person that has a position of authority.

If you want proof "beyond a reasonable doubt", then go rob a mini-mart and you'll get that privilage.

Otherwise get use to it.

Prez

[CookiesnCream]

the original poster can't prove he found those items in 75 runs either. it works both ways.

i can say i found tyreal's might, templar's might, zod, vex, ber, 3 ohms, an soj, and a perfect ethereal hoz in 25 baal runs. its possible, yeah. its also possible lightning will strike you're deficating outside when you're camping and afterward a tornado comes and sweeps away your body after being pelted with baseball sized hail for 45 seconds. and to top it off, at the end you live to tell the tale.

possible, but unlikely. unless the original poster has proof, theres no real reason to believe something so absurd. read it, laugh, move on.

I agree, possible, but very highly unlikely, as someone already poted the statistics. You don't have proof that he lied, but you don't have proof that he found those items either, as this poster mentions.

[HAMC8112]

I agree, possible, but very highly unlikely, as someone already poted the statistics. You don't have proof that he lied, but you don't have proof that he found those items either, as this poster mentions.
Sometimes we dont need proof to know that someone is lieing!

[kurg]

Y'know what's funny is I did 40 baal runs, and IN ORDER on CONSECUTIVE runs(!) he dropped zod, vex, ...... , eld, el. He also dropped a different elite unique on each of those rune drops as well, and a +1 tree grand charm, and lister dropped all the elite set items on all of those runs as well. I had 0MF as well. Did I mention diablo clone spawned in every one of those games too? Man, I got anihilus charms coming out of my ears.

Anyone not believe me? why not? It's certainly POSSIBLE, eh?

prez is right, the first post was bs.

[Carnage-DVS]

Original poster sounds like a liar. Chances of getting all those drops AND getting perfect/near perfect stats=one in a fagazillion. I'm calling him out on it. You are a liar.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

Prez is also right here, "like to provide something useful to this thread"...
Who cares if he's lying or not?
Calling the poster a liar is not useful to the thread.
No I'm not contributing to the thread either, but hey spam count +1

[doubleOObubble]

"Prez, on this one you are just being an *******..........simply accusing with not even a sliver of "fact"."

I'm sorry STINGER, but I have a thought to share about this one, and Mad Merlin, obviously a fellow statistician :thumbsup: timed his post just right to help me make my point:

You do realize people in RL are getting sentenced to the electric chair/life time in prison and such based on DNA analasys? Well, the odds of someone else having the same DNA pattern are often (depending on the quality of the sample and the method used) way within one in a billion (in the millions or even the thousands sometimes).

Those odds are certainly considered "facts" and makes for great consequences in RL. 0.000000009284799% is about ten in a billion and would send anyone (with motive and opportunity) to the chair. In this case, the attention is the motive and as he could obviously post - opportunity.

So, Prez being one in the jury, he has all the ground he needs (and more) to think the original poster is lying. The question, as stated before, is how one chooses to convey that thought :)

EDIT: Point being - Complaining about someone being rude in posts by calling someone else a lier is fair enough. But do that, and not the "It could happen, you can't know!". Basically, those drops didn't happen, I'm sure of it. It's the reaction from that "knowledge" that matters more.

[Spero]

I agree, possible, but very highly unlikely, as someone already poted the statistics. You don't have proof that he lied, but you don't have proof that he found those items either, as this poster mentions.
The odds for those drops and my personal experience playing the game constitutes enough proof for me that the original post wasn't true. I don't follow Mad Merlin's post, but I believe his numbers, and appreciate his efforts.

Remember that the original poster also said that he got good spawns of the items, which reduces the odds even farther. Doesn't matter anyway, I wouldn't believe it even if he had made up random spawns rather than the best possible.

I don't understand how people who have played the game any amount would believe the post in the first place.

No, it's not possible.

Oh, and @Stinger - you cite isolated drops as proof that this happened. No, that's not convincing. Doesn't mean anything. I believe isolated drops, they happen. I've seen it too. The original post is about a wealth of drops from a notoriously stingy source. :cheesy:

[STINGER]

stinger: plz refer to my previous post #26 that I directed at stemis. Personal attacks only serve to negate any point that you might be trying to make.

Prez

I suggest you take these words and apply them to yourself, as your first post to this thread was a "personal attack" exactly as the one involving the freaking runes the other day!

You are simply being an arse!

[grauengel]

Original poster sounds like a liar. Chances of getting all those drops AND getting perfect/near perfect stats=one in a fagazillion. I'm calling him out on it. You are a liar.


seph.. how dare you call me a liar.. TT seph i don't care what these forum newbies say nor think - but for you, you can msg me and ill even show you the mule of items. its not like i actually use them. *ehefrau



oh and for prez - the little sheltered man which seems to be attempting to make up for something - you can msg me too. i'll be happy to prove people like you wrong - just so i can laugh in your face.

[doubleOObubble]

grauengel: You can't prove anyone wrong. Of course you can have all those items. But that's not what people question here, its finding them in those 72 runs. Unless you filmed those 72 runs, you can't prove anything. It's really your burden of proof because of what I said above: People get sentenced to death on "facts" with higher probability than that of what you said happen.

Also, it strikes me as odd that you don't seem to even have thought about people finding your post "questionable". If I would have found what you did in as many runs, and posted about it, it would have been quite a few "I know you are not going to believe this" etc etc. You're acting up with "how dare you call me a liar yada yada".

Again (3'd time, but apparently some chose to ignore it earlier): People get sentenced to death on probabilities more likely than yours. How is that you all get worked up from that some people call it a lie???

[maccool]

Jeez, I was gonna brag on my hel rune and goldwrap I found last night, but with you guys...

[det]

Try this for bragging: HEL rune dropped.....from Hellforge quest in HELL. Now how low are the odds for that :rant:

Well this is the second thread that went out of bounds (the other was the now locked PK thread).

Not sure why anybody cares if and what grauengel found in how many runs...I know I found about any imaginable item in SP of 1.09, among them 2 Tals armours and a Windforce and the chance for them dropping was incredibly remote...and it was probably also less than 100 runs :scratch:

However long you wanna continue this..nobody is gonna back up and nobody's gonna prove nothing.

[terrymanning]

Jeez, I was gonna brag on my hel rune and goldwrap I found last night, but with you guys...


Jeez, just a little delusional here I think. A HEL rune and Goldwrap? Please!?! Why do feel you do you have lie to get respect here? :lol:

TM

[grauengel]

Also, it strikes me as odd that you don't seem to even have thought about people finding your post "questionable". If I would have found what you did in as many runs, and posted about it, it would have been quite a few "I know you are not going to believe this" etc etc. You're acting up with "how dare you call me a liar yada yada".

read my post again. i stated i did not care what half these people think - they are mostly forum dwellers with nothing to back anything they say. i stated that id show seph since we use to be friends, and that i dont see how he would call me of all people a liar. tt

[Bearcub]

Lol and lOl. Im speachless in laughter right now. All I know is I have spent houres running pindle with no return. Then I ran eld, shenk and pindle for houres and no return. All this with 400 mf. Then i did nm shenk once and bartuks droped. Whatever. If you want to run pindle be my guest. I like Andy. Great finds wherever you found them by the way.

[Prez]

stinger - Plz refer to post #26 and try again. I know its hard, but try and author a post where you aren't calling someone a name.

My goal in the original and subsequent posts was to point out for many of the "lurkers" that frequent this forum, and may not be experienced players, that this "mf story" was exactly that..a bedtime fantasy. That simply rushing to hell and then runing pindle a few times will NOT gain you all the godly gear that you desire.

I also have no problem at all in publicly ridiculing those that lie. In the future, I doubt he'll be so quick to post his lies.

grauengel - plz chk post #26 and apply. Your lack of integrity makes anything you say worthless dribble.

Enough said on this topic. Anyone got a good "To PK or not to PK thread"? or maybe a Bluemoon Clan thread..those are always tasty. :)

Prez

[grauengel]

Lol and lOl. Im speachless in laughter right now. All I know is I have spent houres running pindle with no return. Then I ran eld, shenk and pindle for houres and no return. All this with 400 mf. Then i did nm shenk once and bartuks droped. Whatever. If you want to run pindle be my guest. I like Andy. Great finds wherever you found them by the way.

i tried andy.. did bout 100 runs and only got 2 wiz and a shaft. :\

[STINGER]

Based on past experiences, I would have expected something a bit more insightful from you stemis. Instead we get a weak minded, uneducated, immature commentary.

I'll give you a chance for a "do over" if you would like to provide something useful to this thread.

I'll help a little since you seem to need guidance. Try formulating an argument based on logic, common sense and past experiences. Analogies can be very persuasive since most can relate to simple examples.

Hint: Using derogatory terms only serves to negate most of what you say and can actually be beneficial to your adversary.

Goodluck,

Prez

Why do you continually point out this hypocrytical post?

You didnt use logic, or common sense and easily slipped into weak mindedness, immaturity and uneducated accusations of which you have no basis.

My satements stand, and I simply called it as I saw it.......you are being an ARSE and continue to be so.

Have fun in your little "I will fire you over hunches world", they may come back to haunt you some day, you wouldnt be the first boss that got blown away by a ticked off former employee!

[cyradis2003]

""but i think it was well deserved, becasue well in that situation u acted like a dick...others agreed with me ""

No No .... the saying is DUCK.

He looks like a duck, walks like a duck .....

And ummm .... I found a gheeds 40% even!!! and a shako 3 days later - in the pit with like 320 mf ..... and tyreal came down and smacked my butt like in the football games ... and and and one time at band camp ....

I say if he found that stuff "YAY!!!! GRATS!!!"
If not "oh, okies, no biggy"

[CoonerTheRed]

To d0b and his fellow statistician Merlin... while your math is good, you are forgetting something... while the probability of this exact drop is as you said, the probability of something similar occuring is much better. By which I mean, this post would be almost exactly the same had the windforce been replaced by a stormshield, pindle been replaced by lister, or whoever initially posted this by CoonerTheRed. And everyone would have said the same things. What you should really consider is the probability of this post occurring by:

~start as you did (only including all godly items) by taking 1 - (sum(prob of all godly items with good seeds)) as your probability of nothing.

~ next, consider the random variable associated with "godly drops with great seeds" in d2. Then find the probability of this event (10 of these elements being drawn in 150 tries) starting at a given run.

~ take 1-P(event) raised to, say, 10000 runs (20000 tries) by any given member of the forum over the course of his entire d2 life on ANY monster times (as a conservative guess of how many forum members (past or present) mf, including lurkers) say 200. and you would have a much more accurate assessment as to whether something like this could happen to the forum. I think you would find this number to be much more tangible, maybe even probable.

What this comes down to in more general terms is a general misperception of probability.

say you flip a coin 1000 times. You would be amazed at the number of times you came up with, say, 10 straight heads. Now, the probability of flipping 10 straight heads is 1/2^10, or 1:2048. But over the course of a ton of flips, it happens. And when you considered the runs of 6, 7, 8, and 9 heads in a row, you'd be amazed at the number of "runs" you get. I forget the exact numbers, (it's been a long time since I took prob/stat) but I think it works out that in flipping a coin, on average 33% of the flips are a member of a 3+ run.

My point is just that you shouldn't be surprised by streaky mf... it's just a fact of probability that streakiness is much more common than people realize, and we only tend to report "the best mf ever"

Now, despite this long rant on how to do real-world, useful probability, sounds like he's full of crap to me too.:D However that doesn't mean it couldn't happen, and that doesn't mean that it probably hasn't happened to anyone here...

[ZappaFan]

So who appointed Prez the almighty seer of thruth on this forum? There is no way possible in this scenario for you to actually prove anybody a liar, all you can do is make assumptions based on statistics. That's not enough to uphold slanderous statements on your part in any sort of legalistic sense what so ever. Those same statistics can be used over a small number of runs to say that there is zero chance the pindle will ever drop anything worth keeping. Drop statistics are derived from thousands upon thousands of runs. You can't make any sort of conclusion, one way or the other, based on 100 runs.

So keep your accusations to yourself.

And I will also point out that flaming for whatever reason you think is justified is only justification for you getting banned. There is no such thing as "justified flaming".


Lucky
I'm not "always like that". I simply call a spade a spade. If you can't tell the truth than expect to get flammed.

This doesn't even qualify as a good lie...

How many perfect arreats, perfect grandfathers, perfect windforces, near perfect steelrends, etc have you found? Not to mention he found them in 75 or 72 runs off pindle. So if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, walks like a duck...it must be a duck!

Prez

[grauengel]

^^ i dont see why they cry - but oh well.

im still farming pindle and still getting great results. since i cant seem to post my finds(seems to upset some people)... if anyone would like to see what ive found, ill be idling in channel op Hco

[grauengel]

hmm.. im still mfing and i just found:
hellcast
fleshripper
viperfork
and a few other things..

if anyone wants these for free, you can catch me in channel op hco

[cyradis2003]

To d0b and his fellow statistician Merlin... while your math is good, you are forgetting something... while the probability of this exact drop is as you said, the probability of something similar occuring is much better. By which I mean, this post would be almost exactly the same had the windforce been replaced by a stormshield, pindle been replaced by lister, or whoever initially posted this by CoonerTheRed. And everyone would have said the same things. What you should really consider is the probability of this post occurring by:

~start as you did (only including all godly items) by taking 1 - (sum(prob of all godly items with good seeds)) as your probability of nothing.

~ next, consider the random variable associated with "godly drops with great seeds" in d2. Then find the probability of this event (10 of these elements being drawn in 150 tries) starting at a given run.

~ take 1-P(event) raised to, say, 10000 runs (20000 tries) by any given member of the forum over the course of his entire d2 life on ANY monster times (as a conservative guess of how many forum members (past or present) mf, including lurkers) say 200. and you would have a much more accurate assessment as to whether something like this could happen to the forum. I think you would find this number to be much more tangible, maybe even probable.

What this comes down to in more general terms is a general misperception of probability.

say you flip a coin 1000 times. You would be amazed at the number of times you came up with, say, 10 straight heads. Now, the probability of flipping 10 straight heads is 1/2^10, or 1:2048. But over the course of a ton of flips, it happens. And when you considered the runs of 6, 7, 8, and 9 heads in a row, you'd be amazed at the number of "runs" you get. I forget the exact numbers, (it's been a long time since I took prob/stat) but I think it works out that in flipping a coin, on average 33% of the flips are a member of a 3+ run.

My point is just that you shouldn't be surprised by streaky mf... it's just a fact of probability that streakiness is much more common than people realize, and we only tend to report "the best mf ever"

Now, despite this long rant on how to do real-world, useful probability, sounds like he's full of crap to me too.:D However that doesn't mean it couldn't happen, and that doesn't mean that it probably hasn't happened to anyone here...


*stares at Cooner's post*
*carries the 1*
*crosses eyes and passes out*
:cheesy:
Someone wake me up when the numbers stop tap dancing on my head please.

[Carnage-DVS]

^^ i dont see why they cry - but oh well.

im still farming pindle and still getting great results. since i cant seem to post my finds(seems to upset some people)... if anyone would like to see what ive found, ill be idling in channel op Hco

Who are you?

[GrnEggsNHam]

Well I can't stress this enough... Stop the MF runs! ahhhhhh there is more to the game than running 1 monster over and over. But what I find even more ironic is, that once you get these great items from these runs you don't even use them. You simply put them on a mule and keep killing the same guy over and over again. If you guys really want to know what ruined D2 it is Mf runs... Ok well before I go off ranting about how the game has been unbalanced since X-pac came out let me end it here. I am happy for you that you have found happiness in your redundancy :). Great finds man!!! yay!

[Prez]

Zappa - If you wish to whip out the ban stick...then I certainly can't stop you. My desire to participate in any group moderated by an entity that shows up at the tail end of a discussion with threats is low. The "jury" of his peers was the almighty seer of truth, not I. I ended up in the role of prosecuting attorney, stinger played a fair defense attorney. We had expert opinions, from several excellent staticians. And If you take the time to count the guilty and not-guilty votes, the verdict is clear. At best you should have probably stayed out of this discussion as it was close to an end, at worst you should have simply locked the thread. But if you want to play the role of judge, feel free too. Make your call, a mis-trial? Or perhaps you take the reins and make summary judgement.

He is a liar and I stand by what I said. If others aren't capable of accepting that, than so be it. Which is worse? The one that lies or the one that calls him on it? I'm not the only one that called him a liar, simply the first and most vocal.

Refer to the post I made at #42 (iirc), I believe that you might benefit from what I said if you take the time to read it and think about this whole thread.

This thread is the epitome of what is wrong with the gaming forums in general. My tolarance level for lieing, racism, ethinic slurs and generally moronic behavior is gone.

Regardless of what zappa chooses to do, I doubt I'll be back. I find my passion for this game waning and doubt that I will continue much longer.

Goodluck to all,

Prez

[CoonerTheRed]

*stares at Cooner's post*
*carries the 1*
*crosses eyes and passes out*
:cheesy:
Someone wake me up when the numbers stop tap dancing on my head please.

haha, sorry, i'm an applied math grad student... i tend to give dumb math rants sometimes when people try to use math to prove themselves right, but do it wrong, or only do part of the story... :D

[doubleOObubble]

Cooner: It's not "me and my fellow statistician". There is no need to tell me about the reality of statistics or "general misconceptions of of probability". It doesn't matter to me if Merlin is off by a factor of a thousand, his exactness was not the point for me. His numbers are far off, but that was not my point. My point is, even if one calculated it like you suggest (would only get within a factor of maybe a hundred), the odds are comparable to what people are sentenced to death for in real life.

That was my argument, and I'm still amazed no-one has even mentioned the three (now four) times old statement that was my real point. I was not trying to prove anything by a vastly simplyfied calculation which I didn't even do.

[Spero]

haha, sorry, i'm an applied math grad student... i tend to give dumb math rants sometimes when people try to use math to prove themselves right, but do it wrong, or only do part of the story... :D
If you have it in you, please correct the person next time. I started to read your post and realized you were making fun, but didn't see why. I surely didn't realize you knew anything about math.

If someone posted the wrong math and you know better, lets see it. Please post the correct math. While you're at it, can you include the likelihood of spawning all top mods?

Then can you compare the odds of those drops with those spawns in that many runs with the odds of me spontaneously combusting while I sit here typing? I just would like to know which one is more likely.

I suspect I know the answer. :lol:

Zappa - I too don't believe the original post. I posted that I don't believe it. I also posted that I didn't believe the other guy's post about getting sexual favors from Britney. I tried to do it in a non-flaming manner, civilized conversation, which is what I think is the purpose of these forums. I hope it doesn't get me banned, but I'm probably going to continue posting in this fashion as long as I'm a member.

[ZappaFan]

The rules of the forum are not decided by a vote of the forum goers. It's not OK for you to flame just because you seem to have a lot of people on your side. Check the rules. It's clearly states no flaming. You yourself have admitted that you were flaming. I'm just asking you to follow the rules. I only posted at the tail end of things, that doesn't mean I haven't read the whole thread.

I was trying to also issue a warning to Seph but I got a posting error (and had to get back to work).

So Seph please read what I posted to Prez, same thing goes to you (and I've had to tell you this before so you might want to really re-think what you're posting).


Zappa - If you wish to whip out the ban stick...then I certainly can't stop you. My desire to participate in any group moderated by an entity that shows up at the tail end of a discussion with threats is low. The "jury" of his peers was the almighty seer of truth, not I. I ended up in the role of prosecuting attorney, stinger played a fair defense attorney. We had expert opinions, from several excellent staticians. And If you take the time to count the guilty and not-guilty votes, the verdict is clear. At best you should have probably stayed out of this discussion as it was close to an end, at worst you should have simply locked the thread. But if you want to play the role of judge, feel free too. Make your call, a mis-trial? Or perhaps you take the reins and make summary judgement.

He is a liar and I stand by what I said. If others aren't capable of accepting that, than so be it. Which is worse? The one that lies or the one that calls him on it? I'm not the only one that called him a liar, simply the first and most vocal.

Refer to the post I made at #42 (iirc), I believe that you might benefit from what I said if you take the time to read it and think about this whole thread.

This thread is the epitome of what is wrong with the gaming forums in general. My tolarance level for lieing, racism, ethinic slurs and generally moronic behavior is gone.

Regardless of what zappa chooses to do, I doubt I'll be back. I find my passion for this game waning and doubt that I will continue much longer.

Goodluck to all,

Prez

[Spero]

Cooner: It's not "me and my fellow statistician". There is no need to tell me about the reality of statistics or "general misconceptions of of probability". It doesn't matter to me if Merlin is off by a factor of a thousand, his exactness was not the point for me. His numbers are far off, but that was not my point. My point is, even if one calculated it like you suggest (would only get within a factor of maybe a hundred), the odds are comparable to what people are sentenced to death for in real life.

That was my argument, and I'm still amazed no-one has even mentioned the three (now four) times old statement that was my real point. I was not trying to prove anything by a vastly simplyfied calculation which I didn't even do.
Just so you get a reply, even if it isn't from the people you want.... I think your logic and your point is marvelous. Saying that something is possible just because the odds are greater than zero really isn't correct from the standpoint of this conversation. I'm not saying it as well as you, but sentencing someone to death is a very serious thing. It's only done when you KNOW the guy did it.

The odds that the DNA match is wrong are there, but can be ignored because the probability is so small. It's exactly the same reason why those items didn't drop in 72 consecutive pindle runs.

Just no way it happened.

[doubleOObubble]

Spero: Cooner is right about the formula. The thing is, there are too many unknowns to make for a result within a reasonable factor. What is true is that the odds are enourmous for the said to happen. Meriln's calc were vastly simplyfied, but I'm sure he was aware. I would not like to spend half a day to get a number that's still only be within a factor of thousands and still have about the same magnitude as what Merlin did.

Even if I'm sure it wasn't on purpose, the "general misconception blah blah" towards me has a bitter and condescending ring to it. I'm not in the mood to throw diplomas around, I'm confortable knowing what I know. The rest of the world (some of it anyway) does also possess knowledge. It's how we use it. Some people might find the dimension of some "problem" more interesteing than the commas. Try talking to a real Physicist worth his salt. He should be able to solve just about any problem within a factor of ten right of the bat. Then there are need for simplifications.

Again: The exact numbers (and certainly not decimals) are not interesting here. However, if Cooner can convince me/us that the probability of what happened lies within about 1/1000 or so, then I'd be willing to take a turn, because such odds aren't sending anyone to the electric chair... :spy:

[CoonerTheRed]

If you have it in you, please correct the person next time. I started to read your post and realized you were making fun, but didn't see why. I surely didn't realize you knew anything about math.

If someone posted the wrong math and you know better, lets see it. Please post the correct math. While you're at it, can you include the likelihood of spawning all top mods?

Then can you compare the odds of those drops with those spawns in that many runs with the odds of me spontaneously combusting while I sit here typing? I just would like to know which one is more likely.

I suspect I know the answer. :lol:



Maybe you should read my post again, with this difference- I wasn't making fun of anyone, and I was correcting him. The fact is simply this- the probability of an event happening for a given person at a given time can be incredibly tiny, and still, over the course of tons of people doing something tons of times, happen. I'm not about to look at the probability of drops, but using Merlin's own data, let's start here:


~ according to Merlin (again, his math is completely correct, he just ignores other items that would be looked upon as equally "impossible") the probability of getting any one of those items in 75 runs is approximately
P(finding 1) = 0.09926068

~ this yields a probability (again by Merlin) of finding 1 of those items 10 times in 75 runs equal to:

P(finding 10) = 0.00000000009284799

~now, adding other possible items (like i said, had he listed a stormshield instead of a vamp, nothing in this post would change) probably at best increases this chance by an order of magnitude or two (really estimated here, i'm not about to go and add in all possible probabilities of drops) and taking only top seeds probably decreases this by an order of magnitude or two, so let's just hypothesize that for best seeds in all "uber" items, the probability of getting 10 "uber-item, uber-seed" drops in 75 runs is close to what Merlin lists. I mean, lets just assume that more items and limited seeds cancel each other out.

So this means that the probability of me jumping on bnet right now and doing 75 runs and getting 10 "uber item uber seed" drops is about:

P(10) = 0.00000000009284799

However (and here is the point I was trying to make before) the sample size for this forum is huge. I would guess that in my time playing D2, I have run about 10,000 mf runs of various bosses. Let's just guess that 10k is the average number of mf runs by any given Forum member. Then, let's say that there are about 200 members of the forum (includign former members and lurkers) who would have posted had they gotten this incredible run. That means that the entire forum has combined for:

10,000 x 200 = 2*10^6 mf runs.

Then, on any given run, the probability of NOT starting a series of 75 "uber runs" on any given mf run is:

P(not starting uber run) = 1 - P(start uber run) = 1 - P(10)
= 1 - 0.00000000009284799
~= 0.99999999991

But, the probability of NO forum member EVER getting a run like this is:

P(not starting)^(2*10^6)
= 0.99982

So the probability of this kind of crazy run happening to any forum member ever is

.00017

Still very tiny, but much more feasible.


Also, d0b, Merlin, in no way was a trying to insult either of you guys. The "misconception" thing was referring to people's general impressions of good runs as being impossible, not your knowledge or math skills. I meant that runs in general occur much more probablistically than people realize, and since we only hear the good ones, we forget all the similar (and more frequent) runs of green breast plates. I'm sorry if it sounded differently- please accept my apologies. I was just trying to point out that large sample sizes can mean that wierd things happen from time to time.

[cyradis2003]

probablistically

:worship:
oooohhhhhhhh ....... probablistically ...... such a pretty new word!!!

*snatches probablistically and stuffs it in her pocket*
*walks away whistling*

Mine now!!!!!
:surprise:

[CoonerTheRed]

:worship:
oooohhhhhhhh ....... probablistically ...... such a pretty new word!!!

*snatches probablistically and stuffs it in her pocket*
*walks away whistling*

Mine now!!!!!
:surprise:

haha, you're on a roll today cyradis :D

[doubleOObubble]

Cooner: Thanks for beeing a good sport. You see (and remember, I didn't do the initial, or any calc), I have had my fair share of statistics too, hence my reaction to the "general misconception blah blah".

Your calculation is also simplyfied. But it's about as good as one could guess without getting to tangled, so it's all good. One could make the chain of calculations never ending. However, there are two things (+ a conclusion) I'd like to add for (what I think is) a more matching sample.

First: No way the average amount of MF runs netting equal to Pindle (as agreed, let's keep it "simple") are 10.000. Maybe a median, but NO WAY an average. No one has to agree, but personally, I'm convinced the average number is alot lesser. This has small impact on the final number, as I don't think it's off by 10 either. Say 5000 (that's generous for an average in the suggested sample size: People here, willing to post it).

Secondly: The "finder" shows 100% surprise that people think he lie. That makes for ALOT more ground for "probabillity changes". Of course, this is a whole different area as well, analysing language, and I wouldn't say I'm qualified. But, if we stick to the original statisitc interpretation, I' say that way of posting it narrows the suggested 200 down to what, 10? I don't know anyone, whithin the sample size of having the means of posting such find here who'd write and react like that to such a post. I give you ten. Of course it could be wrong. I'm not biased, I'm really trying to make sense here.

So, to the "conclusion": The .00017 has suddenly (and again, I'm just trying to be fair) become .00000425. This is, given the suggested circumstances, the probability for such a run as the posted. This would also (et ceritus baribus) make up for the expectancy value of the same. So, given all the slack we can (and yes, I did withdraw some of the slack that was given Cooner's fine calculations, but it was quite fair), this marvelous event is expected to happen in about 235.000 runs (rounding downwards) - for ONE person running, not the entire b-net, or this whole forum.

So, we have one person running Pindle (or the likes). How long would a run take? You might say ~1 min including game change. I say AHA - NOT. Why? Because the original sample size of 10.000 (or 5.000 that I think) was about any MF run. So either we lessen that number even more, and focus just on Pindle (no way the average number of Pindle runs from "postable" forumers are close to 5000). Or we go with what numbers we have and augment the time a bit. Let's say the average time is 3 minutes (no arguing on "I can do Meph in 12 seconds" because an average will not be taken with a super sorc).

What have we got now? We have an expectance value to the said find at about 490 days of 24/7 MF running. How many hours per day do you think the average player who would be inclined to post such a find here MF Pindle (or his likes) per day? I'd have to take a guess again, but let's say 30 minutes a day (little? No, not over every single day it is not, rather far too much, but I want the argument going).

So, multiply 490 by 48 and you get that the expectancy value of such a drop as the posted to be about 64 years. Now an expectancy value doesn't mean anything other than that if this was repeated infinite times, that's when the occurance would most often be. The "mean" so to say.

Now everything has been accounted for. Some numbers have been guesses, but I honestly tried to make the fairest judgment I could. 64 years.

Of course it could have happen sooner. No doubt about it. However, people are very entitled to doubt. I think (still) the main issue here is how one spout it out.

Grats on the finds :winner:

[CoonerTheRed]

haha, you're probably closer to right than i was. But, like you said, we could refine the calculation forever. And in the end, we'd come to the same conclusions- it's extremely unlikely that this occurred to this person, and it's rather unlikely that it has happened, or will happen, to anyone, ever.

And I'm not even gonna try to talk about the psychology behind a post like this... not my thing. I was just making the comments I made to show that considering the probability of something like this happening at any given time isn't really the best judge of whether it actually happened or not. With this many players doing something so often, we shouldn't really be surprised by unusual happenings.

And I'm personally not a fan of flaming someone or automatically assuming them a liar after one post that seems exaggerated or even completely made up. It takes at least two instances before I completely disrespect everything you've ever said... :D

disclaimer: that last paragraph is not targeted at any single person or poster, just at a general attitude of flame first, ask questions later

[grauengel]

... Whatever tickles your pickle?.. O.o

fyi, i got more odd breakers. i just found a 337% ed ethereal ettin axe with 20%ias ^^ no selfrepair.. .*cries*

[rpgforumsnet]

It's pointless unless you have a video to show that you did it in 72 runs (or if you have a winning lottery ticket to show, that'll work too)

I can't accuse you liaring because I can't prove it, but it's extremely likely that you are.

I advice you stop bragging about what you find here in *this* thread. It's getting annoying because it's so improbable...

Just my $0.02

[grauengel]

It's pointless unless you have a video to show that you did it in 72 runs (or if you have a winning lottery ticket to show, that'll work too)

I can't accuse you liaring because I can't prove it, but it's extremely likely that you are.

I advice you stop bragging about what you find here in *this* thread. It's getting annoying because it's so improbable...

Just my $0.02

Heres my 2 cents. Just cuz I'm finding items you wish you were finding - doesn't mean you get to turn into a giant green eyed monster and break out the 'suddle flames.'

oh, and no where did anyone ask for your advice... *sigh*

[Randal.Flag]

I'm fairly new here but what has Prez done in this thread? Flamed? Where? Oh ok, attention people! Read this thread, similar situation in the future, whatever you know, keep it to yourself!
I'd like to see that 250 gf, haven't seen any on ladder, I'd make an east char just to see it. I like grandfathers, it's sexier than botd cb.

[grauengel]

I'm fairly new here but what has Prez done in this thread? Flamed? Where? Oh ok, attention people! Read this thread, similar situation in the future, whatever you know, keep it to yourself!
I'd like to see that 250 gf, haven't seen any on ladder, I'd make an east char just to see it. I like grandfathers, it's sexier than botd cb.

msg *hco to see

i found a 205% too but its not as sexy as the 250% :(