Rules for open dueling

[SwordOfJusticeX]

Hi guys here is a draft of the rules for open duelling as some of u have requested, please feel free to comment to change the rules. Once the rules is set i will request bloembak to put this into the first page of the open dueling thread so it can be stickied

Banned Items/Item Limitations
- Item must be able to be spawned in game in any patch. No bugged items. Plz check to see that rares can only have 3 prefixes and 3 suffixes. Eg. No cruel, masters, fool’s, mechanic’s mods on 1 sword
- Slow Target Down by xx% is not allowed
- Knockback is not allowed
- Poison damage on charms is capped at 500. Poison damage on other items and skills is unlimited
- Chance to Cast Amplify Damage is not allowed
- Chance to Cast Life Tap is not allowed
- Doom runeword cannot have holy freeze (see below)
- Runewords other than BotD CAN have indestructible mods. This is because if it breaks u can make a new one anyway.
- Paladin or Assassin using traps can have 20 replenish life, other chars can use max 30 replenish life. If you are using Teleport then only 15 is allowed.
Use of meditation Prayer, Cleansing or Meditation counts as 15 replenish life(includes all team members in TvT)
- Bugged skill synergies from item with charges is not allowed. For example Marrowwalk boots on necromancer, Carrion Wind ring on druid.
- Maximum of 2 Rainbow Facet jewels per element can be used in gear at anytime
- Maximum + 15 % to cold skill damage on Blizzard/Hybrid Sorceress
- Maximum + 30 % to cold skill damage on Orb Sorceress
- Maximum of 35% open wounds total or one item of max 75% open wounds. Druid using skill "Rabies" cannot use any open wounds item

IMPORTANT: u can remove bad mods from an item (eg life tap from exile and slow target from astreon’s iron ward) this allows useful items to be used without their banned mods. (another benefit of open duelling :D)

Limited skills:
- Clay Golem is not allowed, because of it's Slow Down mod, which takes place even if you kill it with melee attack
- Holy bolt is not allowed to be used in TvT duels
- Skeletons and Skeleton Mages are allowed. Revives and mercs are not allowed

Resists and absorb:
- Maximum of 1 absorb item per element on all classes unless otherwise defined elsewhere in rules
- Energy shield and Cyclone armor count as one absorb for all elements
- Exception is Nightwing's Veil helm, which can be used with Energy shield or Cyclone armor without counting it as absorb.
- Thundergod's Vigor counts as 1 absorb vs Paladin

Duelling
- No item/charms check is required. Everything goes by the honor system. If a person wants to cheat on charms/items he can just hack his stats anyway
- Ask your opponent first if both of u agree to use non-class skills e.g. teleport from enigma and BO from CTA
- No excessive running or playing too defensively. If u feel your opponent is way too defensive u request for a duel on arreat summit

i have ommited some rules that some clans use such as resist, dr and frw caps etc. i feel the point of open dueling is to have fun and we dont need to spoil that with excessive rules

-sword

[SwordOfJusticeX]

zelc plz post ur ideas for the rules. they seem good

-sword

[Tridge]

nice job!
just one thing i don't understand is no OW on rabies druid?
poison is easily negated, so this build is now completely useless? :|

[SwordOfJusticeX]

nice job!
just one thing i don't understand is no OW on rabies druid?
poison is easily negated, so this build is now completely useless? :|
usually rabies druids have fire claws / fury as 2nd attack
stacking poison resist = less dr / fire resists etc
no open wounds on rabies druid is to prevent 1 hit then excessive running

-sword

[-Infinite-]

i dont mind the rules, theyre fine.

[TheDemonWithin]

Tight, awesome. I got some suggestions though. My words will be in bold, your post in regular.

Banned Items/Item Limitations
- Item must be able to be spawned in game in any patch. No bugged items. Plz check to see that rares can only have 3 prefixes and 3 suffixes. Eg. No cruel, masters, fool’s, mechanic’s mods on 1 sword
No way. "in any patch" means you can use those uber-cheap old patch items, which really unbalance the game. It should read "Items must be able to be spawned in 1.10."
- Slow Target Down by xx% is not allowed
[b]Keep as is, though you should allow casters to use Arachnid Mesh if they don't melee (well, I'm a little too lazy to edit the slow mod off my Pala's Arach ~_~)
- Knockback is not allowed
Why not? Knockback is actually, IMHO, a good thing, because it puts "some" strategy in Melee vs. Melee duels instead of just "Attack attack attack attack gg agin". You should allow knockback, but disallow massive knockback (eg. Psychic Hammer sins with massive mana + fcr)
- Poison damage on charms is capped at 500. Poison damage on other items and skills is unlimited
[b]Probably a good idea, definitely with wwsins running around. Keep as is
- Chance to Cast Amplify Damage is not allowed
Good idea, Amp is just pretty cheap.
- Chance to Cast Life Tap is not allowed
" "
- Doom runeword cannot have holy freeze (see below)
Change it to: "Doom Runeword cannot have Holy Freeze in Melee vs. Melee duels." If a melee'r was not allowed to use Holy Freeze vs...say, a trapsin, the traps would just spam so fast and the asn would move too fast to be caught. Anything short of a perfect namelock teleport + stunlock would not catch the assassin.
- Runewords other than BotD CAN have indestructible mods. This is because if it breaks u can make a new one anyway.
Other than BotD? Whats the points in that? Actually, make ALL items indestructable, cuz if your eth HoZ or whatever breaks, BAM, new one in 2 seconds. Should be reworded "Indestructable mod is allowed on all items."
- Paladin or Assassin using traps can have 20 replenish life, other chars can use max 30 replenish life. If you are using Teleport then only 15 is allowed.
Use of meditation Prayer, Cleansing or Meditation counts as 15 replenish life(includes all team members in TvT)
Really, what's the point? 20 Replenish Life is 2 life a second, which is not enough to do ANYTHING in these godly duels. Even if you MASSED life regen. completely AND used Max Prayer + Meditate, you would still only have appr. 100 regen life, which is 10 a second. Out of the usual 5k life used by duelers, 10 life a second is really, really minor. Heck, if you wanna be so cheap, just tele to a friggin Well ~_~. I say trash this rule completely.
- Bugged skill synergies from item with charges is not allowed. For example Marrowwalk boots on necromancer, Carrion Wind ring on druid.
Yes, Yes, and YES!!! Though that would completely screw Rabies / FC druids...but meh.
- Maximum of 2 Rainbow Facet jewels per element can be used in gear at anytime
This is really stupid. First off: to really use jewels you have to ditch a LOT of other mods. Take my Cold Orb Sorce: She had to ditch a Shako for a Nightwings, CoH for a 4-sock archon of whale, stormshield for a 4-sock jewelers of deflection. Especially when you think of what she COULD have used, you find that you lose a LOT of defensive capabilities. I would enforce this rule against: FoH'adins and Blizz Sorcs, only because their damage is so high that amplifying it again with a mass of jewels would add to much. Allow jewels for other types.
- Maximum + 15 % to cold skill damage on Blizzard/Hybrid Sorceress
Nah, just use the above rule. Blizz sorcs shouldn't be a problem if they don't mass up jewels.
- Maximum + 30 % to cold skill damage on Orb Sorceress
Nah, let 'em. Orb can't get to the OHKO instant range that Blizz or FoH can get to. Believe me, I've TRIED!
- Maximum of 35% open wounds total or one item of max 75% open wounds. Druid using skill "Rabies" cannot use any open wounds item.
Dude, you've gotta be crazy. By limiting OW or RabieDruids to use ANY OW A) destroys Rabies Druids and B) makes WWSins, Kicksins, WW or WB Druids, and all the other "minifighters" (not babas or palas) useless. You say that most Rabies Druids have FC for backup. Well, with your banning of Carrion Wind, Rabies Druids can't afford enough points to pump up FC to damaging levels. About the minifighters: well, the only way one of them can take on a huge 20k+ defence enemy (pala or baba) is to stack open wounds many, many times, because of course their attack rating can't hit those "large enemies". You should allow unlimited Open Wounds against Barbs or Paladins (unless you are a Barb or a Paladin) and a limit of 50% OW against others or 75% on one item.

IMPORTANT: u can remove bad mods from an item (eg life tap from exile and slow target from astreon’s iron ward) this allows useful items to be used without their banned mods. (another benefit of open duelling )
OT: *grumbles* unless ur lazy like me *grumbles* *End OT*

Limited skills:
- Clay Golem is not allowed, because of it's Slow Down mod, which takes place even if you kill it with melee attack
Err...whatever, its not like Clay Golem is that good anyway ~_~.
- Holy bolt is not allowed to be used in TvT duels
GOOD IDEA!! With an excess of RoseBranded Charms a Hammerdin can heal pretty well.
- Skeletons and Skeleton Mages are allowed. Revives and mercs are not allowed
Mages, yes, Skellies, yes. But MASS Skelies, no. You namelock tele on an opponent with 30+ skellies all with fanat (beast), and your opponent it dead without even realizing it. Max of 12 Skeletons and unlimited Mages (well...mages suck =P)

Resists and absorb:
- Maximum of 1 absorb item per element on all classes unless otherwise defined elsewhere in rules
I would set up a point system of "absorbs", and say...allow 4 points of absorb total. Look below for my beta point system.
- Energy shield and Cyclone armor count as one absorb for all elements
Not ES. ES gets nerfed BECAUSE of elementals. Energy Shield should be a...-1 absorb! No just kidding, but still, ES shouldn't be an absorb.
- Exception is Nightwing's Veil helm, which can be used with Energy shield or Cyclone armor without counting it as absorb.
"Absorb" should be defined clearly. Items that are "absorbing":
-Thundergod's Vigor [Lightning Absorb 3 Points]
-Wisp Projector [Lightning Absorb 2 Points]
-Blackhorn's Face [Lightning Absorb 1 Point]
-RavenFrost [Cold Absorb 2 Points]
-Nightwing's Veil [Cold Absorb 1 Point] *Exception: Only against Cold Sorcs*
-Nokozan's Relic [Fire Absorb 4 Points]

Also, 4x Shields should be banned. 4x Shields are 4-Socketed Shields with "Absorbing Gems and Runes" in them, meaning PTopaz and PSapphire, Orts and *insert Cold Res Rune here*, and Sur and *insert +max light res rune here*.
- Thundergod's Vigor counts as 1 absorb vs Paladin
Well, actually against anything dealing with Lightning TGods is REALLY painful to play against. It has the "ultimate" light absorb mods AND it has other REALLY nice mods, so the user doesn't sacrifice as much as he sacrifices with a Blackhorns or Wisp. I think my point system would work best.

Duelling
- No item/charms check is required. Everything goes by the honor system. If a person wants to cheat on charms/items he can just hack his stats anyway
Yea, it really doesn't matter much. It really is pretty obvious if somebody is hacking anyway.
- Ask your opponent first if both of u agree to use non-class skills e.g. teleport from enigma and BO from CTA
Meh, yea, you *should* ask, but most people use em anyway so who cares ~_~.
- No excessive running or playing too defensively. If u feel your opponent is way too defensive u request for a duel on arreat summit
Arreat Summit? What is that?



Well, there are my thoughts. Please consider them Sword.

[SwordOfJusticeX]

TheDemonWithin nice job! ur suggestions are very thoughtful
however, i would like to wait for more ppl's opinion's on rules, especially debated topics such as OW and absorb
btw, arreat summit is the place u fight ancients :P not cramped and yet disallows excessive running :D

-sword

[TheDemonWithin]

OOH, that arreat summit. lol, i was thinking some sort of...different arreat summit oO. Lol, anyway, you wanna duel me sword? im in 66.188.63.151 (tridge's ip)

[SwordOfJusticeX]

sorry cant now
2 reasons:

1. too bz studying for 3 SATII and 4 provincial exams :rant:
2. i havent even tuned my chars to fit the rules i set myself :D

-sword

[TheDemonWithin]

Oh, right, thanks for reminding me, I gotta tune my chars too :innocent: .

[Zelc]

Not bad, Sword. I see you took some of Euro-PvP's rules into account. However, I feel that a few things should be changed.

WARNING: I may be biased on these rules, as some of my characters are in violation of them. Please review my reasons carefully before making a decision.

- Poison damage on charms is capped at 500. Poison damage on other items and skills is unlimited
This is cool, but it's really difficult to get an even 500 damage from charms. Common poison charms are 383's and I believe 290's (though I don't know what affixes they have, PM or post if you know). The worst thing about this is that poison does not stack in intuitive ways. If you put a Pestilent prefix (175 over 6 sec) and an Anthrax suffix (50 over 6 sec), somehow, you get 383 damage over 10 seconds. As you can see, it'd be almost impossible for someone to get that 500 poison damage exactly. Therefore, I think the limit should be something that can be created by 383's and/or 290's (290, 383, 673 (383+290), etc). One other thing to note is that this rule was probably conceived in 1.09, when poison was bugged and did not suffer the PvP penalty. This was fixed in 1.10.

- Knockback is not allowed
I'm not too sure about this one either. The Knockback modifier only has a 1/2 chance of working against a player in 1.10. Additionally, the only duelers I see this really working for are Bowazons and Throw Barbs, both of which are weak enough without this rule. Oh, and in no way should this rule be applied to skills. Smite and Mind Blast are pretty crucial to Paladins and Assassins, respectively. Even if you decide to ban Mind Blast on Trapassins, other kinds of assassins should still be able to use them.

- Maximum of 2 Rainbow Facet jewels per element can be used in gear at anytime
- Maximum + 15 % to cold skill damage on Blizzard/Hybrid Sorceress
- Maximum + 30 % to cold skill damage on Orb Sorceress
I disagree. Let's do some calculations. Bone Spear or Spirit can easily reach the mid 4k damage, even without Marrowwalks. With tons of Facets, a Fireball can get to 24k damage. Factor in 75% Resists, and that damage becomes 6k damage. Then you factor in absorb, +max resist, etc, and this number becomes lower than Bone Spear or Spirit (90% resists drops Fireball's damage to 2.4k, or about half of that of a Spear or Spirit). While resisting Fireball will require gear trade-off, I seriously doubt that the gear trade-offs will seriously affect the dueler. Note that this is with about 6 Facets. Without the Facets, elemental damage will quickly be surpassed by the unresistable magic damage spells.

Additionally, there are trade-offs to be made if full advantage is to be taken of Facets. Wearing a 4 socket shield and armor means less Faster Cast. A sorceress who goes for an 8 frame cast can generally use 6 Facets (2 rare weapon, 2 rare helm/circlet, 1 unique shield, 1 unique armor). She could use a maximum of 11-12 Facets at the cost of 40% Fast Cast, which means she probably will have to use rare rings and maybe HOTO, or stay happy with a 9 frame cast. She will also lose out on the other benefits of using the uniques.

Even worse, Elemental spells are WORSE than Bone Spirit (and about equal to Bone Spear). Bone Spirit has a much longer range and TRACKS. Most of the elemental spell reaches little more than 1/2 to 1 screen, and even Bone Spirit has more range than some of them.

I also do not believe that Frozen Orb's damage should be restricted. It does VERY little damage, and 30% of 1.2k is less than 400. Even 2k damage per shard would not be too unbalanced, especially if resistances are stacked. I'm not too sure about restricting Blizzard's damage. In the short amount of time I've used it, Blizzard had been incredibly difficult to hit with, and doing so often required me to take damage. Of course, I am not very good, and others may be able to aim it with more skill.

Therefore, we could either restrict the bone spells' synergies, or allow free usage of +% Elemental Damage, or perhaps set a higher limit on the Facets (maybe 6 to 8). I believe this would allow for the greatest parity between these two kinds of spells.

Also, 4x Shields should be banned. 4x Shields are 4-Socketed Shields with "Absorbing Gems and Runes" in them, meaning PTopaz and PSapphire, Orts and *insert Cold Res Rune here*, and Sur and *insert +max light res rune here*.
I'm not too sure why they should be. They use up a shield, and are one of the only ways to negate Cold Mastery. Additionally, a 4 socket armor could be used with the resistance runes. Finally, the definition is pretty awful. "Absorbin Gems and Runes" should be changed to "Resisting Gems and Runes," and resisting jewels should be included as well.

One more thing. Here is a PM I sent to Sword earlier about Off-class skills:
By the way, I strongly believe we should have at least SOME penalty for using off-class skills, perhaps similar to those used by Euro-PvP (http://www.euro-pvp.net/index.asp?M=RULES).

Why?

According to sirlin.net (http://www.sirlin.net) (AWESOME SITE!!!), states:

"A multiplayer game is balanced if a reasonably large number of options available to the player are viable—especially, but not limited to, during high-level play by expert players.

That was quite a mouthful. It basically means that game doesn’t degenerate down to a very small number of real options. This is a pretty broad definition since it encompasses the concept of “brokenness” as well. If, in chess, only pawns were used in tournament play (if pawns were so good as to be “broken”), I would say the game lacks balance, even though both players start with the same pieces. Another point of contention might be my use of the phrase “large number” rather than “large percentage” of viable options."

Most Off-class Skills violate that definition in the following ways:

1) Skills are frequently mainstays of the class (Teleport for sorcs, BO for barbs). By giving the skill to everyone, the class with that skill gets a significant nerf, as it is no longer the sole beneficiary of what the skill can provide.

2) Off-class skills stifle the viability of many classes. For example, playing a melee character would be near impossible if a ranged character plays extremely defensively with teleport, frequently keeping the melee character off of the screen. In the same token, the teleport could be used to force a shoot-out, killing anything that cannot tank or deal great deals of damage quickly. Battle Orders requires a character to use only one of the weapon switch slots, which destroys characters that use both weapon switches (hybrid caster/fighter, for example, that has both caster weapons/shield and fighter weapons/shield) and characters that don't have near-1-hit kill attacks (as a 1 hit kill attack will still kill someone with BO).
To address the issue that characters already have these skills:
a) One class having these skills is a lot better than all classes getting these skills.
b) The class that has the skill may be unable to use them in the most beneficial way. Sorceresses' spells have only a little more than 1 screen's range, and forcing a shoot-out at point blank range is generally not a good idea for them. Additionally, Barbarians tend to have a great deal of life already, and their other skills are not good enough to make that extra life and mana unfair (Whirlwind still requires careful timing AND aiming, unlike Charge, Bone Spirit, etc).

3) Usage of off-class skills makes many classes inferior versions of other classes. For example, if off-class skills are allowed, a Bowazon basically becomes a Necromancer without the mana to teleport. A Barbarian becomes a Paladin that requires more skill to play.

4) Usage of off-class skills decreases the effect of play skill. It is much harder to avoid an incoming Barbarian by running than it is by Teleporting.

5) Usage of off-class skills reduces diversity. Skills make the character, and using the same skills on different characters makes them more similar to each other.

6) Usage of off-class skills frequently requires no trade-off. Enigma comes with +2 skills, 45% run/walk, and a sick amount of Strength. Call to Arms uses a weapon switch. For many characters, these are not harsh at all.

For those reasons, I firmly believe that most off-class skills are not beneficial for game balance.

However, like I said earlier, I do feel that some off-class skills, such as Whirlwind for Assassins, are beneficial and can be allowed without any penalty.

Why? Let's take a close look at Whirlwind on an Assassin:

1) While Whirlwind is a mainstay for the Barbarian, one point in Whirlwind (maybe level 7 after skills) is extremely different than a level 20 Whirlwind. It gives less AR and damage. This is one of the lesser reasons for its balance, but allow me to compare it with Teleport and BO. Teleport can be useful with one point, as the only thing that more points does is make it cost less. The advantage of the extra points is not enough to justify the necessity of them. Battle Orders is more like Whirlwind, but on a much different scale (+6 instead of +1, and initial benefit much greater on BO than on WW).

2) The use of Whirlwind does not stifle the viability of any classes. Even other Melee-sins would have better AR and damage at the cost of having to spend more effort in getting a hit and maybe slower attack speed.

3) The use of Whirlwind does not make any class inferior to the WW-sin class.

4) The use of WW on an assassin doesn't really make play skill any less important. One still has to run to close up on an opponent and Whirlwind at the right time and place.

5) As only Assassins can use Chaos, there is little worry that it would make classes too similar. Additionally, Barbarians and Assassins are hardly similar. WW-sins tend to kill with Open Wounds, while Barbarians tend to kill with brute force damage.

6) Usage of Chaos does require a harsh trade-off. One cannot use a higher damage 530% claw, for example.

One can see the difference between an unbalanced off-class skill, such as Teleport and BO, and a balanced off-class skill, such as Whirlwind.

I believe that usage of off-class skills, and similarly, aura stacking (a Paladin using Fanat, Holy Freeze, Defiance, and Thorns would be pretty tough to beat), should be restricted or incur some penalties.

Option 1: Ban all off-class skills and aura stacking except for maybe Whirlwind for assassins.

Option 2: Create a penalty for usage of off-class skills. The biggest problem with making penalties for usage of off-class skills is making them so they leave using off-class skills as a viable option, but still incur enough of a trade-off that using off-class skills does not become a no-brainer. For example, resists and DR could be limited against a user of off-class skills, but note that Battle Orders can double someone's life, and Teleport decreases your chances of getting hit, so such restrictions may not be enough.

I propose the following rules for usage of off-class skills and Paladins using multiple auras (Assassins may use Whirlwind without encuring any penalty. Usage of both Battle Command and Battle Orders on non-Barbarians counts as usage of 1 off-class skill, although this could be changed):
Usage of 1 off-class skill: No Absorb. Max DR 20%. May only use a 5x4 block of inventory for charms.
Usage of 2 off-class skills: All of the penalties for using 1 off-class skill, plus 75% max resists and no usage of DR and charms.
Usage of 3 off-class skills: All of the penalties for using 2 off-class skills, plus one must use a broken (0/12 durability) unsocketed white (no magic mods) Buckler (basically, no holding a weapon 2 handed or using a shield).
Usage of 4 off-class skills: All of the penalties for using 3 off-class skills, plus one must use a broken white Boots (the item, not the item type).
Usage of 5 off-class skills: All of the penalties for using 4 off-class skills, plus one must use a broken white Leather Gloves and a broken white Sash.
Usage of 6 or more off-class skills is prohibited.

However, I'm still not sure that these penalties will be harsh enough. Can you really put a price on being able to Teleport, especially if you're a paladin or wind druid? Maybe Teleport could just be banned, and the penalties apply to other usage of off-class skills.

[TheDemonWithin]

My Text = Bold

Not bad, Sword. I see you took some of Euro-PvP's rules into account. However, I feel that a few things should be changed.

WARNING: I may be biased on these rules, as some of my characters are in violation of them. Please review my reasons carefully before making a decision.


This is cool, but it's really difficult to get an even 500 damage from charms. Common poison charms are 383's and I believe 290's (though I don't know what affixes they have, PM or post if you know). The worst thing about this is that poison does not stack in intuitive ways. If you put a Pestilent prefix (175 over 6 sec) and an Anthrax suffix (50 over 6 sec), somehow, you get 383 damage over 10 seconds. As you can see, it'd be almost impossible for someone to get that 500 poison damage exactly. Therefore, I think the limit should be something that can be created by 383's and/or 290's (290, 383, 673 (383+290), etc). One other thing to note is that this rule was probably conceived in 1.09, when poison was bugged and did not suffer the PvP penalty. This was fixed in 1.10.

Good idea. However, the Item Vault only supports 383s, so maybe we could do 383 + 383?

I'm not too sure about this one either. The Knockback modifier only has a 1/2 chance of working against a player in 1.10. Additionally, the only duelers I see this really working for are Bowazons and Throw Barbs, both of which are weak enough without this rule. Oh, and in no way should this rule be applied to skills. Smite and Mind Blast are pretty crucial to Paladins and Assassins, respectively. Even if you decide to ban Mind Blast on Trapassins, other kinds of assassins should still be able to use them.

My thoughts exactly.

I disagree. Let's do some calculations. Bone Spear or Spirit can easily reach the mid 4k damage, even without Marrowwalks. With tons of Facets, a Fireball can get to 24k damage. Factor in 75% Resists, and that damage becomes 6k damage. Then you factor in absorb, +max resist, etc, and this number becomes lower than Bone Spear or Spirit (90% resists drops Fireball's damage to 2.4k, or about half of that of a Spear or Spirit). While resisting Fireball will require gear trade-off, I seriously doubt that the gear trade-offs will seriously affect the dueler. Note that this is with about 6 Facets. Without the Facets, elemental damage will quickly be surpassed by the unresistable magic damage spells.

Additionally, there are trade-offs to be made if full advantage is to be taken of Facets. Wearing a 4 socket shield and armor means less Faster Cast. A sorceress who goes for an 8 frame cast can generally use 6 Facets (2 rare weapon, 2 rare helm/circlet, 1 unique shield, 1 unique armor). She could use a maximum of 11-12 Facets at the cost of 40% Fast Cast, which means she probably will have to use rare rings and maybe HOTO, or stay happy with a 9 frame cast. She will also lose out on the other benefits of using the uniques.

Even worse, Elemental spells are WORSE than Bone Spirit (and about equal to Bone Spear). Bone Spirit has a much longer range and TRACKS. Most of the elemental spell reaches little more than 1/2 to 1 screen, and even Bone Spirit has more range than some of them.

I also do not believe that Frozen Orb's damage should be restricted. It does VERY little damage, and 30% of 1.2k is less than 400. Even 2k damage per shard would not be too unbalanced, especially if resistances are stacked. I'm not too sure about restricting Blizzard's damage. In the short amount of time I've used it, Blizzard had been incredibly difficult to hit with, and doing so often required me to take damage. Of course, I am not very good, and others may be able to aim it with more skill.

Therefore, we could either restrict the bone spells' synergies, or allow free usage of +% Elemental Damage, or perhaps set a higher limit on the Facets (maybe 6 to 8). I believe this would allow for the greatest parity between these two kinds of spells.

First off: Bone Spells aren't nearly the highest damagers in the game. My Hammerdin hit 15k after crazy gear. After PvP penalty that still is enough to OH or 2HKO mostly anything. However, does that mean we should call it unfair and limit it? Surely not, because Hammers have many flaws, one being which they are very hard to hit with. Also, you saw that Elemental Skills are worse than Bone spells. Bone Spirit moves ridiculuously slow, making most opponent's capable of teleporting (or running) away. In my time of dueling, most of my deaths to BoneNecs have come due to massive teeth fields or quickly cast Bone Spears. Just my 2 cents.

I'm not too sure why they should be. They use up a shield, and are one of the only ways to negate Cold Mastery. Additionally, a 4 socket armor could be used with the resistance runes. Finally, the definition is pretty awful. "Absorbin Gems and Runes" should be changed to "Resisting Gems and Runes," and resisting jewels should be included as well.

Oh, right, Resist Jewels too. I guess I didn't think of the massive -res of Cold Mastery, but what about for a Trapassin? Or a Charged Strike zon? You toss on a 4Ohm Shield and have 95 Lightning Res. Add a simple Wisp / TGods, and both Trapsins or CS Zons mean nothing. Sure, you lose a shield, but you become nearly invulnerable. That can't be fair. For CM though, yes, it would be a good idea to allow uber-res stuff.

One more thing. Here is a PM I sent to Sword earlier about Off-class skills:


I believe that usage of off-class skills, and similarly, aura stacking (a Paladin using Fanat, Holy Freeze, Defiance, and Thorns would be pretty tough to beat), should be restricted or incur some penalties.

Option 1: Ban all off-class skills and aura stacking except for maybe Whirlwind for assassins.

Well, actually, when a Paladin stacks up auras, he loses some things too. A) He loses his BotD B) He loses his Enigma / CoH C) He loses his HoZ. Sure, you might say that Exile is as good as HoZ because of Life Tap, but whooee, we just banned Life Tap. You might claim that Doom is better than BotD, and to SOME extent it is. But really, if I were to pick, I'd go BotD every time. And you've gotta be kidding me if you think that Bramble beats out Enigma or CoH (unless you're a Poison Necro).

Option 2: Create a penalty for usage of off-class skills. The biggest problem with making penalties for usage of off-class skills is making them so they leave using off-class skills as a viable option, but still incur enough of a trade-off that using off-class skills does not become a no-brainer. For example, resists and DR could be limited against a user of off-class skills, but note that Battle Orders can double someone's life, and Teleport decreases your chances of getting hit, so such restrictions may not be enough.

Good idea.

I propose the following rules for usage of off-class skills and Paladins using multiple auras (Assassins may use Whirlwind without encuring any penalty. Usage of both Battle Command and Battle Orders on non-Barbarians counts as usage of 1 off-class skill, although this could be changed):
Usage of 1 off-class skill: No Absorb. Max DR 20%. May only use a 5x4 block of inventory for charms.
The DR is good, the Absorb is good, but the limit on charms really just screws off-class skills.
Usage of 2 off-class skills: All of the penalties for using 1 off-class skill, plus 75% max resists and no usage of DR and charms.
No Charms and no DR? Well, nobody's gonna be using off-class skills in awhile.
Usage of 3 off-class skills: All of the penalties for using 2 off-class skills, plus one must use a broken (0/12 durability) unsocketed white (no magic mods) Buckler (basically, no holding a weapon 2 handed or using a shield).
A looong while...
Usage of 4 off-class skills: All of the penalties for using 3 off-class skills, plus one must use a broken white Boots (the item, not the item type).
Ok never.
Usage of 5 off-class skills: All of the penalties for using 4 off-class skills, plus one must use a broken white Leather Gloves and a broken white Sash.
Never ever ever never oO.
Usage of 6 or more off-class skills is prohibited.
Is that even possible O-o.

However, I'm still not sure that these penalties will be harsh enough. Can you really put a price on being able to Teleport, especially if you're a paladin or wind druid? Maybe Teleport could just be banned, and the penalties apply to other usage of off-class skills.

Actually, if you ban teleport, then you're pretty much saying that duels will be Asn / Sorc vs. Asn / Sorc and Rest vs. Rest. Asns can Dragon Flight, Sorcs can teleport, so they can fight each other. Really, against a character that doesn't have teleport, a sorceress just has to tele around a bit, shoot an orb backwards, and keep teleporting. They could max mana and energy shield, and just keep teleporting and shooting all day long until FINALLY you die off the shards. Assassins could namelock and DFlight into a Sorc and kill them, or they might fail and run smack into an Orb / FB / Blizz / whatever. What you really need to realize is that with Levels 99s and with the godliest gear possible, having a disadvantage as big as not so quick movement means that you lose. If you can't catch your enemy you're dead. Period.

BTW, did you ever think that it doesn't really matter if people use off-class skills? If everybody gets to BO and Tele, nobody is at a loss. Plus, teleport duels are much more fun than run around duels.

[Zelc]

Demon: Please seperate quoted stuff from your stuff next time. It makes replying much easier. You're not the only lazy person around :D

I'm not sure if Knockback is OK. Let's put it on the watch list and see if it's too good before banning it.

First off: Bone Spells aren't nearly the highest damagers in the game. My Hammerdin hit 15k after crazy gear. After PvP penalty that still is enough to OH or 2HKO mostly anything. However, does that mean we should call it unfair and limit it? Surely not, because Hammers have many flaws, one being which they are very hard to hit with. Also, you saw that Elemental Skills are worse than Bone spells. Bone Spirit moves ridiculuously slow, making most opponent's capable of teleporting (or running) away. In my time of dueling, most of my deaths to BoneNecs have come due to massive teeth fields or quickly cast Bone Spears. Just my 2 cents.
1) My argument that the elemental spells would have worse damage than the bone spells still applies.

2) Ever dueled Dethathius? He has enough mana to almost continuously spam Bone Spirits. If you play a ranged character, those often invisible Bone Spirits are killers. Speed becomes a null issue when you're at a great distance, and they will frequently catch up if you decide to melee the Necromancer.

3) I think Bone Spirits have more range than many of the Sorceress's spells, including Blizzard, Frozen Orb, Lightning, and Fireball (NOT SURE ABOUT THIS LIST, especially Fireball).

4) I'm just trying to make Bone spells and Elemental spells have relatively equal, not nerf one to hell.

On the argument of Hammers:
1) This doesn't effect the matter at all. I'm just trying allow Bone spells and Elemental spells to be equally good, as these types of spells are more or less similar (can be aimed, etc) and can be compared.

2) I don't like the idea of 15k hammers being "ok." First, a melee character WILL lose to 15k hammer field, even my 11k hp Rabies Druid. Secondly, their primary flaw of being difficult to hit with is largely dead with the advent of Teleport for all.

Well, actually, when a Paladin stacks up auras, he loses some things too. A) He loses his BotD B) He loses his Enigma / CoH C) He loses his HoZ. Sure, you might say that Exile is as good as HoZ because of Life Tap, but whooee, we just banned Life Tap. You might claim that Doom is better than BotD, and to SOME extent it is. But really, if I were to pick, I'd go BotD every time. And you've gotta be kidding me if you think that Bramble beats out Enigma or CoH (unless you're a Poison Necro).
If one may only have one set of gear and never dueled other melee characters, you are correct. However:

1) Think Melee vs. Melee. Many/most Paladins use Smite as their melee skill. Does a BotD or even a 530% help Smite? Well... the 530%'s jewels MIGHT (not sure), but not nearly as much as slowing your opponent by about 50%.

2) Exile gives you insane amounts of Defence. HoZ gives you some skills. While HoZ does give you a slightly higher Smite damage, the amount of defence you get from Exile makes up for that if you're dueling melee characters.

3) Bramble > Enigma and CoH in melee.

4) It's true that these equipment are largely situational. However, there's a stash. That means that they don't need to be used until instances arise where they are good.

Oh, right, Resist Jewels too. I guess I didn't think of the massive -res of Cold Mastery, but what about for a Trapassin? Or a Charged Strike zon? You toss on a 4Ohm Shield and have 95 Lightning Res. Add a simple Wisp / TGods, and both Trapsins or CS Zons mean nothing. Sure, you lose a shield, but you become nearly invulnerable. That can't be fair. For CM though, yes, it would be a good idea to allow uber-res stuff.
Nitpick: Ort is the lightning resist rune :)

:( I was assuming that excess resist would be counted as an absorb, and you only get one. Euro-PvP has some decent rules on when over-resisting counts as an absorb, as well as setting a max to resists. We should adopt a similar rule on over-resisting.

The DR is good, the Absorb is good, but the limit on charms really just screws off-class skills... etc
1) I do not claim that these rules are perfect. However, if you are willing to propose penalties for using off-class skills, they have to be harsh. Think about it. What is the benefit of using Teleport? For many classes, it nullifies significant disadvantages (Hammers, Tornadoes). For other classes (Necromancer), it maximizes their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses in sickening ways (just wait till you've played a defensive Necromancer).

2) Litmus Test: will certain players still use off-class skills even with the penalties? How many people will even blink at using Teleport if the penalty of it is but no absorb and 20% DR? I frequently don't even use absorb or DR, and against Necromancers or Hammerdins, it frequently doesn't even matter. Half charms means -5 Tree Tab (Which isn't really THAT harsh, it generally doesn't add too much damage, and if it does, the skill probably deals enough damage without it), -300 Life (ouch), and maybe minus some resists. In SOME circumstances, the penalty probably won't outweigh the huge benefit Teleport gives, or the extra +1 all skills and +70% Life and Mana that Battle Orders and Command gives.

3) Empirical evidence: Euro-PvP rules state that all characters that use Teleport and an off-class skill may not use a shield or block. Face it, few people use more than 2 off-class skills, and losing charms probably is not as bad as losing the shield, which could give Tons of Resists + 100 life, or 160% ED/60% IAS + 100 life, or 20% ESD/-20% Resist + 100 life, or up to 80% DR (75% block and 20% DR on modified Stormshield), etc.

Actually, if you ban teleport, then you're pretty much saying that duels will be Asn / Sorc vs. Asn / Sorc and Rest vs. Rest. Asns can Dragon Flight, Sorcs can teleport, so they can fight each other. Really, against a character that doesn't have teleport, a sorceress just has to tele around a bit, shoot an orb backwards, and keep teleporting. They could max mana and energy shield, and just keep teleporting and shooting all day long until FINALLY you die off the shards. Assassins could namelock and DFlight into a Sorc and kill them, or they might fail and run smack into an Orb / FB / Blizz / whatever. What you really need to realize is that with Levels 99s and with the godliest gear possible, having a disadvantage as big as not so quick movement means that you lose. If you can't catch your enemy you're dead. Period.
1) Have you seen the range on Sorc spells lately? Orb barely reaches more than half a screen, meaning that if you stand where you cast the orb, you can see almost all of the shards reach their terminus. Blizzard must be cast on your screen baring namelock (which won't happen while you're teleporting), giving it an effective range of slightly greater than half a screen due to its AoE. Lightning and Fireball have NO tracking and NO AoE, making hitting anything off the screen extremely difficult. If that sorc wants to hit me, she'll have to get where I can see her, and hopefully, I'll have an arrow, spell, Charge, or dash and Whirlwind waiting for her.

2) So why is Teleport for all a greater problem? Three reasons.
a) First, not all classes have the range restriction. Necromancers' Bone Spirits have tons of range, abusing the evasive abilities granted by Teleport.
b) Second, other classes are more durable, and are able to survive a Teleport to the opponent's face.
c) Third, other classes have more damaging skills, like Tornado, Blessed Hammer, or Whirlwind.

3) Empirical evidence proves that Teleport for Sorceresses only is not a problem. In 1.09, Sorceresses died all the time to all of the other classes, including Barbarians and Necromancers. Now, with improved damage on other classes and nerfed Energy Shield, Sorceresses should be even less worrisome.

BTW, did you ever think that it doesn't really matter if people use off-class skills? If everybody gets to BO and Tele, nobody is at a loss. Plus, teleport duels are much more fun than run around duels.
1) The character with the class skill is getting nerfed. All of a sudden, everyone can use that class skill, and suddenly, that class loses one advantage.

2) Not all characters can benefit from an off-class skill equally. What if there was an item that granted anyone who used it Charge? I can see Barbarians and maybe Druids getting better, but what about Sorceresses or Necromancers? Similarly, not all characters do not have the ability to use Teleport or Call to Arms equally. Teleport's mana cost is a killer for characters that don't have a lot of mana, and melee Druids, who can't cast it while shapeshifted. Additionally, using Call to Arms isn't feasible for characters that use both weapon switches.

3) Teleport duels are not as fun as non-Teleport duels. It's not fun when your opponent stays off your screen for all eternity. It's not fun when your opponent jumps up in your face and pukes out insane damage, leaving you with little or no way of avoiding it. Running is more skill-intensive and is in fact more thrilling, as it increases the danger you're in (ever get chased by a Barbarian? Pretty scary :D).

4) Using the same logic, if we take the off-class skill away, it won't disturb the balance of everything.

EDIT: By the way, my desire is that all off-class skills be banned, or at least the off-class Teleport be banned. However, I am willing to accept penalties for the usage of off-class skills/Teleport, as long as the penalties force an actual choice between the off-class skill and not suffering the penalties.

EDIT 2: Made stuff easier to read.

[Zelc]

By the way, there has been a long discussion about the usage of off-class skills in dueling on Amazon in a thread on the rules of a dueling league. From the first post, which was edited during or after most of the discussion concluded, and after several test games.

Why no Engima!? All my characters abuse Engima!
I know this is an issue containing not a little contraversy, so a lengthy explanation is perhaps in order: I find the current state of play in many places somewhat confusing. A LOT of things changed with the patch, sure. But I do not for a second see why something as abusive and game-changing as enigma would be permitted in private dueling. If I, in 109, had pulled out Slow Missile or Amp charges, let alone Tele, on my robobarb, I would have been laughed out of any private duel league on battlenet. Why it is that Enigma, about 100 times worse than any charge, merc, item mod, or other factor altering character balance, is suddenly tolerated as 'standard' in most places currently is quite beyond comprehension.

Put more philosophically, anything that grants the specific advantages of one character derived from their theme and skills to another (let alone all others) is something that is breaking down the distinction between the classes, and thusly reducing the innate variety not only of builds, but of styles of play seen in dueling. .This is denigrates the game down to a more homogenous, and in the end, less interesting, state. That, in the end, is the highest crime. Note also that not only is it a grossly abusive and unbalancing item, it also sets a dangerous precedent. If every character can buff BO before playing, and then whirlwind to boot, why play a barb? For that matter, why not give every other uber-powerful skill to everyone in a rune word? If your necro can buff my BO and use tele like my sorc, why can't my barb have decrepify at his fingertips, or my sorc able to spam Lower Resist? Well, those skills aren't freely avaible in runeword form....not really fair is it? Well, I spose the only 'fair' thing to do is to give every character access to every other character's skills, or nerf the exceptions into submission...

We are avoiding this whole treacherous swamp of trivialsing character distinction and saying "Enigma and Call to arms shall not be used". And before you ask, added to this list shall be any non-native character skill item that is seen to have the effect of either a) unbalancing the game or b ) detracting from the general interest in a particular class (as Enigma has done so effectively to sorcs). The only reason Azurewrath, Exile, Trangs set and all the rest are not gone already in the intrests of consistency is a small concession towards the keeping of the game as unrestricted as possible, and encouraging thematic play. If someone can show me necros chucking 200 damage fireballs upsetting the pvp balance, then it will go

[-Infinite-]

uhhh two things...

one: i dont understand any of you.

two: too many rules trying to dictate what penalties should apply for this, why i cant use that ect. just play the game. i dont care what people use, as long as its legit, fine by me.

[Tridge]

imo old uniques are no longer overpowered with 1.10

[bradley_turner]

off class skills should be completely banned, they mess up the game too much, allowing character classes to get the benefit from a skill that only 1 class should get

[milky]

OW thingy is ***, that means no fury's

[knickknack]

Please remember what you are trying to make rules for. Open dueling, for fun(at least for me). This is no league or tourny.

Sure, It would be great to have open dueling where we have very ballanced and fair rules. Good luck agreeing on rules and trying to figure out what rules are most ballanced and fair.

I would rather have a few guidelines, rather then many unnecessary rules. If you(sword) are going to give up on such things as rules pretaining to faster w/r(a very important aspect for pvp) you should take a more critical look at your rules.

If you want to just take pvp-euro's rules, thats fine by me. If you want to go with no rules besides some basic things, such as, no amp, thats fine by me also, and what I reccomend.

[SwordOfJusticeX]

i will go over the rules and come up with an edited one asap
the rules will be quite balanced *i hope* and not tooo "hardcore" like some dueling leagues and clans etc

-sword

[TheDemonWithin]

Demon: Please seperate quoted stuff from your stuff next time. It makes replying much easier. You're not the only lazy person around :D

I'm not sure if Knockback is OK. Let's put it on the watch list and see if it's too good before banning it.


1) My argument that the elemental spells would have worse damage than the bone spells still applies.

2) Ever dueled Dethathius? He has enough mana to almost continuously spam Bone Spirits. If you play a ranged character, those often invisible Bone Spirits are killers. Speed becomes a null issue when you're at a great distance, and they will frequently catch up if you decide to melee the Necromancer.

3) I think Bone Spirits have more range than many of the Sorceress's spells, including Blizzard, Frozen Orb, Lightning, and Fireball (NOT SURE ABOUT THIS LIST, especially Fireball).

4) I'm just trying to make Bone spells and Elemental spells have relatively equal, not nerf one to hell.

On the argument of Hammers:
1) This doesn't effect the matter at all. I'm just trying allow Bone spells and Elemental spells to be equally good, as these types of spells are more or less similar (can be aimed, etc) and can be compared.

2) I don't like the idea of 15k hammers being "ok." First, a melee character WILL lose to 15k hammer field, even my 11k hp Rabies Druid. Secondly, their primary flaw of being difficult to hit with is largely dead with the advent of Teleport for all.

Hehe, ok, fine, no more lazy =P. Lol. Yes, Bone Spirits (most) have longer range than Sorceress Spells. However, you need to realize that in the time it takes for a Bone Spirit to move halfway across the screen a Sorceress can tele in, spam a few FBs (or 1 Orb / Blizz / few lightnings etc.) and teleport out really fast. Sorceresses have absolutely insane FCR breakpoints. They can tele in and out + attack before Bone Spells come close (unless the Necro somehow expects the exact spot to put a Teethfield) and then be halfway across the MiniMap, safely out of range. Well, no, I haven't dueled this Deth, but in all seriousness, a Necro's breakpoints give enough interval between the "line of spirits" to tele in with a sorc and tele out.


If one may only have one set of gear and never dueled other melee characters, you are correct. However:

1) Think Melee vs. Melee. Many/most Paladins use Smite as their melee skill. Does a BotD or even a 530% help Smite? Well... the 530%'s jewels MIGHT (not sure), but not nearly as much as slowing your opponent by about 50%.

2) Exile gives you insane amounts of Defence. HoZ gives you some skills. While HoZ does give you a slightly higher Smite damage, the amount of defence you get from Exile makes up for that if you're dueling melee characters.

3) Bramble > Enigma and CoH in melee.

4) It's true that these equipment are largely situational. However, there's a stash. That means that they don't need to be used until instances arise where they are good.


Nitpick: Ort is the lightning resist rune :)

:( I was assuming that excess resist would be counted as an absorb, and you only get one. Euro-PvP has some decent rules on when over-resisting counts as an absorb, as well as setting a max to resists. We should adopt a similar rule on over-resisting.

Not much time to respond...skip this.


1) I do not claim that these rules are perfect. However, if you are willing to propose penalties for using off-class skills, they have to be harsh. Think about it. What is the benefit of using Teleport? For many classes, it nullifies significant disadvantages (Hammers, Tornadoes). For other classes (Necromancer), it maximizes their strengths and minimizes their weaknesses in sickening ways (just wait till you've played a defensive Necromancer).

2) Litmus Test: will certain players still use off-class skills even with the penalties? How many people will even blink at using Teleport if the penalty of it is but no absorb and 20% DR? I frequently don't even use absorb or DR, and against Necromancers or Hammerdins, it frequently doesn't even matter. Half charms means -5 Tree Tab (Which isn't really THAT harsh, it generally doesn't add too much damage, and if it does, the skill probably deals enough damage without it), -300 Life (ouch), and maybe minus some resists. In SOME circumstances, the penalty probably won't outweigh the huge benefit Teleport gives, or the extra +1 all skills and +70% Life and Mana that Battle Orders and Command gives.

3) Empirical evidence: Euro-PvP rules state that all characters that use Teleport and an off-class skill may not use a shield or block. Face it, few people use more than 2 off-class skills, and losing charms probably is not as bad as losing the shield, which could give Tons of Resists + 100 life, or 160% ED/60% IAS + 100 life, or 20% ESD/-20% Resist + 100 life, or up to 80% DR (75% block and 20% DR on modified Stormshield), etc.

In all truth, to a Necro who play defensive (like that Deth you mentioned) losing a shield is a minor loss for being able to go anywhere on the map in a few seconds. Losing half your charms, thats pretty brutal. You lose +5 to skills and +200 to life, and then 200 more to life + mana. Yes, Battle Orders can boost you, but also one thing to consider is that B.O. adds the 70% TO the 400 life and 200 mana etc. Ok, and now I have to go, I'll finish later.


1) Have you seen the range on Sorc spells lately? Orb barely reaches more than half a screen, meaning that if you stand where you cast the orb, you can see almost all of the shards reach their terminus. Blizzard must be cast on your screen baring namelock (which won't happen while you're teleporting), giving it an effective range of slightly greater than half a screen due to its AoE. Lightning and Fireball have NO tracking and NO AoE, making hitting anything off the screen extremely difficult. If that sorc wants to hit me, she'll have to get where I can see her, and hopefully, I'll have an arrow, spell, Charge, or dash and Whirlwind waiting for her.

2) So why is Teleport for all a greater problem? Three reasons.
a) First, not all classes have the range restriction. Necromancers' Bone Spirits have tons of range, abusing the evasive abilities granted by Teleport.
b) Second, other classes are more durable, and are able to survive a Teleport to the opponent's face.
c) Third, other classes have more damaging skills, like Tornado, Blessed Hammer, or Whirlwind.

3) Empirical evidence proves that Teleport for Sorceresses only is not a problem. In 1.09, Sorceresses died all the time to all of the other classes, including Barbarians and Necromancers. Now, with improved damage on other classes and nerfed Energy Shield, Sorceresses should be even less worrisome.


1) The character with the class skill is getting nerfed. All of a sudden, everyone can use that class skill, and suddenly, that class loses one advantage.

2) Not all characters can benefit from an off-class skill equally. What if there was an item that granted anyone who used it Charge? I can see Barbarians and maybe Druids getting better, but what about Sorceresses or Necromancers? Similarly, not all characters do not have the ability to use Teleport or Call to Arms equally. Teleport's mana cost is a killer for characters that don't have a lot of mana, and melee Druids, who can't cast it while shapeshifted. Additionally, using Call to Arms isn't feasible for characters that use both weapon switches.

3) Teleport duels are not as fun as non-Teleport duels. It's not fun when your opponent stays off your screen for all eternity. It's not fun when your opponent jumps up in your face and pukes out insane damage, leaving you with little or no way of avoiding it. Running is more skill-intensive and is in fact more thrilling, as it increases the danger you're in (ever get chased by a Barbarian? Pretty scary :D).

4) Using the same logic, if we take the off-class skill away, it won't disturb the balance of everything.

EDIT: By the way, my desire is that all off-class skills be banned, or at least the off-class Teleport be banned. However, I am willing to accept penalties for the usage of off-class skills/Teleport, as long as the penalties force an actual choice between the off-class skill and not suffering the penalties.

EDIT 2: Made stuff easier to read.













WILL FINISH RESPONSE LATER

[Tridge]

how about these are the rules at my ip address (for now- up for debate):

items must be able to spawn in any patch of diablo2: lod

"chance to cast" items are banned- exception: the oculus (ctc: teleport)

use of skill charges is banned

items and skills granting "slows target by xx%" are banned (the paladin aura "holy freeze" also falls under this clause)

use of oc-skills is banned (for now)

paladins may artificially stack ONE aura in 1v1 dueling, and may legally stack up to THREE auras NOT granted by an item in tvt dueling (cannot use any item that grants an aura in tvt dueling)

the use of items granting the "knockback" modifier are limited to as follows:
MELEE characters may use this modifier AT ALL TIMES
RANGED characters may use this modifier ONLY WHEN DUELING ANOTHER RANGED ATTACKER (the paladin skill "charge" will count as a ranged attack for this)

the use of hirelings, skeletons, and/or revives is banned

relenish life is capped at 25

the exploitation of items granting charges used for artificial skill synergy is banned

a maximum of one item granting an elemental absorb may be worn per element
note: the guardian angel counts as either lightning OR fire absorb under this clause and any shield or armor socketed with four perfect gems of one type or four runes granting one resistance will count as elemental absorb for that element

i figure these are simple enough and should appease most (if not all)

[Zelc]

Rules Update Ideas:

1) We should probably implement some sort of r/w cap, so ranged characters with an inventory filled with small r/w charms don't own everything. A lack of a r/w cap also hurts casters, who lose out on r/w if they decide to invest in +skills charms. A simple cap would be to just copy Clan Honor's r/w caps.

2) Using Vigor + Charge together should be banned. Come on, when one of the duelers does not know where the other one is, even though the other dueler is on his screen, that's not cool. Use Vigor, or use Charge, but not both at the same time please.

3) I've been convinced that only Teleport, BO/BC, and item-provided auras are detrimental to PvP. I think the rest are fine, and may even increase diversity. By the way, item-aura stacking on Paladins can be pretty sick, and Exile can create near-untouchable 56k defense paladins. If they want the high defense, make them use Defiance.

4) Please disallow the usage of pre-1.10 items. It creates a massive headache for character builders, who now have to check up on all of the pre-1.10 items. It also can lead to some imbalance, such as the 1.09 Arreat's Face, 1.08 (?) Arkaine's Valor, etc. Besides, this also allows the usage of removed crafted recipes, which allows for items such as:

Sorceress Class Shield Elite
Preset Mods:
+10-20% Faster Cast
+5-45 Defense
Lowers Reqs 5-50%
+20-101% Defense
25% Chance of +2 Sorc Skills (something sorceresses cannot get on a shield)

and

Crafted Colossus Blade
Preset Mods:
75% chance of +1 to all skills
33% chance of +1 to all skills
+25-68% Enhanced Dmg
+50-200 Attack Rating
40% Faster Attack

which could get +2 all skills, 598% ED, 110% WIAS, +450 AR, etc.

and +4 class skills amulets, thanks to class amulets and random mods. Let's not...

[Acropolis]

holy cow thats a lot of reading i skipped... anyway... anyone else want to set up a REGULAR open dueling tourny...? thats still in the realm of pvp like this forum is but.. uh.. is "editing" characters like that encouraged? its not too far away from editing like in the above tourney.. just... excessively.. :lol: not like :ahem: i uh, do that.. er..

edit: uh for ppl that dont know what im refering to, just go on open and join a game named "dueling" or something of the sort ...

[Zelc]

is "editing" characters like that encouraged? its not too far away from editing like in the above tourney.. just... excessively.. :lol: not like :ahem: i uh, do that.. er..

edit: uh for ppl that dont know what im refering to, just go on open and join a game named "dueling" or something of the sort ...
Why not? I'm all for using the hero edit to create characters and items, AS LONG AS THE ITEMS AND CHARACTER STATS COULD HAVE BEEN LEGITIMATELY OBTAINED IN A NORMAL GAME. If you want to make +10000000% ED weapons, go duel somewhere else. It'll quickly get dull killing the weaker characters anyway.

[Acropolis]

zelc you misunderstood.. i didnt mean just for one person who has unrealistic characters to go duel legit chars.. everyone would use the uber hacked chars.. and btw that amount of ed is impossible..

[-Infinite-]

[QUOTE=Zelc]Rules Update Ideas:



2) Using Vigor + Charge together should be banned. Come on, when one of the duelers does not know where the other one is, even though the other dueler is on his screen, that's not cool. Use Vigor, or use Charge, but not both at the same time please.

3) I've been convinced that only Teleport, BO/BC, and item-provided auras are detrimental to PvP. I think the rest are fine, and may even increase diversity. By the way, item-aura stacking on Paladins can be pretty sick, and Exile can create near-untouchable 56k defense paladins. If they want the high defense, make them use Defiance.

QUOTE]

gee thanks for taking out the aspect of my liberator and zealot :lol:.

[Andysor]

There is a cube recipe that should probably be banned.
SOJ + Rare Item + 3 Pskulls (i think) = Rare item with 1 extra socket (max of 2 like all rare items)
That could mean you could put a grinding prefix on a weapon instead of mechanics.

I think you're making too much of a deal of non-class skills. IMO, you can use them as long as all duelers agree that you can. If not everyone agrees, then you can't use them.

[Zelc]

There is a cube recipe that should probably be banned.
SOJ + Rare Item + 3 Pskulls (i think) = Rare item with 1 extra socket (max of 2 like all rare items)
That could mean you could put a grinding prefix on a weapon instead of mechanics.

I think you're making too much of a deal of non-class skills. IMO, you can use them as long as all duelers agree that you can. If not everyone agrees, then you can't use them.
You can't have Grinding with Cruel. They're both part of affix group 105. Likewise, you can't have Fool's with Master's, as they're both part of affix group 110. Therefore, you could only add some extra AR or some elemental damage. It's not broken.

EDIT: Just tested, you can only add 1 socket with the formula. Mechanic's gives you 2.

As for the OCskills, it's good to know what to expect when building characters.

[TheDemonWithin]

Acropolis, I still don't have a clue what you're talking about. What we're doing here is not "hacking" really, its just "speeding up our normal gear obtaining stategies" :lol: . Basically, we're getting items that are LEGIT and POSSIBLE TO GET but just would take a huuuge amount of money / time to get. I.e. full inv of 45 life skillers etc + super rare runewords with such perfect stats that even Nefastaru (see USWest Trading) couldn't dream of getting.

See, we're just speeding up the magic finding process ;}.

Oh, and some thoughts on rules:

After some testing with Zelc in duels, I've found that you don't really NEED offclass skills to win. Well, that and the fact that whenever I use teleport my ping shoots to around 400. Well, seeing that I can't use teleport anymore, I decided to try some other classes. And wow! Dueling is so much more fun when you're trying to win with classes like FCDruids. Me and Zelc had a FCDruid vs. FCDruid match, and DAAAMN it was fun like hell.

So, in conclusion, OCSkills don't really effect the game as much as I thought they would. However, I also found something else. When I brought in my Wind Druid (I cant tele without seeing everything in 3-4 miscasts) with Cyclone Armor against Zelc's Sorceress, there was a major problem. Zelc could teleport around me forever and I could never catch him, and I could keep tossing on CArmor and he'd never damage me (until I was typing and he orbed me at that time). This was just a really, really boring stalemate. When you're disallowed to teleport around, your only option is to run. And a sorceress can dodge around you with teleport very fast (I'm talking about using a close range char against a sorce, not a nec).

I think there needs to be SOME nerfs sorceresses should be forced to take when against a close range combatant, or something like that. Because, as shown in the Wind Druid vs. Sorceress scenario, a sorceress can teleport around all day and never worry about dying. Plus, Zelc has ES, so he could EASILY tank one Tornado just on his mana alone, meaning he had some time to get outta there if I got lucky.

About OCSkills: Whirlwind has NO NEGATIVE IMPACT ON THE GAME. Actually, I think it has a positive impact, because it gives assassins a more "feared look". Sure, you have DTalon, but please, nobody cares if some little assassin is kicking at them. They just slap em up and down. Now a WWsin: they can really kill.

About Aura Stacking: An aura that should be banned from being stacked is Exile's Defiance aura. As said before, it just screws the game up. Come on, not many characters can seriously expect to hit a 50k defense Paladin. Bramble is okay, because well...thorns isnt very powerful. Doom doom doom doom...well, yes, Holy Freeze is something to be reckoned with, the HF aura should be removed from the Doom Runeword.

About Vigor/Charge: Definitely no-no. With Vigor/Charge paladins don't even need to fill up ANY of their inventory with frw charms if they wanna be speed demons. Not fun ~_~.

About Cube Recipe: I would be inclined to say no. Basically you're allowing a character to just slap on an extra socket for NO REASON WHATSOEVER! They don't get ANY loss, they just slap on a 40/15 and be happy. No cube recipe plz ><.

About Zealot vs Zealot Duels: I'd have to say that for Z vs Z duels, anything goes. Zealot vs. Zealot duels are really about gear and skill, not about OCskills and stuff. You have to be really good to prepare a winning Zealot. So...let Zealots use whatever they want (even Vigor/Charge) other than hacks.


Well...there are my comments.

[Zelc]

About Cube Recipe: I would be inclined to say no. Basically you're allowing a character to just slap on an extra socket for NO REASON WHATSOEVER! They don't get ANY loss, they just slap on a 40/15 and be happy. No cube recipe plz ><.
The recipe only adds 1 socket, similar to the Larzuk Socket Quest. You cannot add a socket to something that already has a socket (i tried, didn't work). It's perfectly fine.

[TheDemonWithin]

Oh. Retract previous statement about recipe.