View Full Version : barb who can beet a smiter
i am going to make a ww barb with doom and beast zerkers, will this work?
competent whirling>smite. all day.
so yeah, that should work if you can time/position whirling to take as few hits as possible
SwordOfJusticeX
08-05-2004, 19:31
holy freeze *cough* fanatism *cough* BM *cough*
u do that the smiter use exile, draculs and lacerator and u still lose -_-'
i suggest go for BotD great poleaxe instead
-sword
holy freeze *cough* fanatism *cough* BM *cough*
-sword
BM = NK i only duel in pubs
when i duel its not to make friends, i do it to see who has the best build. i have a smiter who uses doom exile and dracs. I have never lost 2 out of 3 to a barb. I'm just hoping this build will allow me to compete.
BTW as i start this barb i am realizing this is the hardest character i have made to date. the stat distrabution is starting to drive me insane.
holy freeze *cough* fanatism *cough* BM *cough*
u do that the smiter use exile, draculs and lacerator and u still lose -_-'
i suggest go for BotD great poleaxe instead
-sword
Why do ppls always cry about things being BMed when they can also use and benefit from?
If both melees are fighting each other, why are life tap, holyfreeze, fanaticism... BMed?
For casters, specifically bone necro vs wind druid vs hammerdin, the only thing i can see being BMed is slow missile charges.
SwordOfJusticeX
08-05-2004, 21:54
Why do ppls always cry about things being BMed when they can also use and benefit from?
If both melees are fighting each other, why are life tap, holyfreeze, fanaticism... BMed?
For casters, specifically bone necro vs wind druid vs hammerdin, the only thing i can see being BMed is slow missile charges.
1. i consider it BM. if u dont, plz dont say i am crying about it -_-
2. slow missile is BM but it allows the necro to create teeth fields which is super deadly
3. to thread starter: since i assume the pala will use exile, draculs etc i think u will still lose. try using a range 5 weapon to hit him without being smited. if he click lock just ww away. if he shift smite ww from his side a hit with range 5. u have to practise a bit but u'll have a big chance of winning
-sword
1. i consider it BM. if u dont, plz dont say i am crying about it -_-
2. slow missile is BM but it allows the necro to create teeth fields which is super deadly
3. to thread starter: since i assume the pala will use exile, draculs etc i think u will still lose. try using a range 5 weapon to hit him without being smited. if he click lock just ww away. if he shift smite ww from his side a hit with range 5. u have to practise a bit but u'll have a big chance of winning
-sword
I'd seen teeth field, and for a teleporter, it's nothing compared to multishot field (much larger range) or frozen-orb field (can fill the area backward). If you teleport on top of the necro, u can't be hit by slowed teeth. And because it is being slowed, if the necro dodges your first tele and spam another slow teeth, you can see it coming "a mile away" and tele away easily. Basically if a necro is slow-missiled, the best bet vs teleporters is tele away and away.
ReVolution
08-05-2004, 22:07
Competent WW > BM smite.
fugitive alien2
09-05-2004, 00:37
Competent WW > BM smite.
in general bm smiters aren't that great
in general bm smiters aren't that great
A BM smiter if played right should never lose to any other melee character.
Joe_smith
11-05-2004, 03:59
in general bm smiters aren't that great
yep they usually use exile and doom which arent' all the great agaisnt casters. and a barb can beat them by wwing away.
bradley_turner
11-05-2004, 04:11
BM... really wish i knew what that meant so i understood wtf you guys were arguing about
Buliarios
11-05-2004, 10:27
BM = Bad Manners
Module88
12-05-2004, 05:38
Why do ppls always cry about things being BMed when they can also use and benefit from?
If both melees are fighting each other, why are life tap, holyfreeze, fanaticism... BMed?
For casters, specifically bone necro vs wind druid vs hammerdin, the only thing i can see being BMed is slow missile charges.
To answer your question, ask yourself why slow missile would be bm.
To answer your question, ask yourself why slow missile would be bm.
slow missile is one-sided, using it will make your opponent attack very ineffective in some matchups, so it is the same as using full absorb. But other off-class skills like teleport, how can teleport be one-sided?
boshekinthunder
12-05-2004, 11:35
slow missile is one-sided, using it will make your opponent attack very ineffective in some matchups, so it is the same as using full absorb. But other off-class skills like teleport, how can teleport be one-sided?
Teleport is one-sided for a caster against any melee class. First of all, melee classes arent ranged, and melee classes also need gear to boost thier damage. This type of gear doesnt usually include fcr. For casters on the other hand, fcr items help them since items with fcr usually boost skills as well, which is the main way to up casting damage. Also teleport is a huge advantage due to the ranged attacks.
In fact I would even go so far as to say, "teleport is one-sided, using it will make your opponent attack very ineffective in some matchups, so it is the same as using full absorb." Think about necro vs. smiter, necro vs. barb, or shapeshifting druid vs. anything.
Teleport is one-sided for a caster against any melee class. First of all, melee classes arent ranged, and melee classes also need gear to boost thier damage. This type of gear doesnt usually include fcr. For casters on the other hand, fcr items help them since items with fcr usually boost skills as well, which is the main way to up casting damage. Also teleport is a huge advantage due to the ranged attacks.
In fact I would even go so far as to say, "teleport is one-sided, using it will make your opponent attack very ineffective in some matchups, so it is the same as using full absorb." Think about necro vs. smiter, necro vs. barb, or shapeshifting druid vs. anything.
Without teleport, caster vs melee is one-sided already. So there is no need to over-do it. Couple of examples, necro+wall/prison+their attacks, hammerdin+charge/hammer.
edit: it's not even a duel when you use tele hammerdin vs melee. My advocate for the use of teleport is for all casters in caster vs caster.
LordDrift
12-05-2004, 23:25
A PvP Smiter can lose against a Barb if the Barb does some general planning against a smiter.
For me, I use Triangle WW Method trying to get the smiter to chase me as I WW, I find this highly effective.
Weltkriegpally
12-05-2004, 23:54
A PvP Smiter can lose against a Barb if the Barb does some general planning against a smiter.
For me, I use Triangle WW Method trying to get the smiter to chase me as I WW, I find this highly effective.
it is effective, but the minute a good smiter sees it, he shift charges out and sets up a new smite range, making you come to him. it is the only way to take out good barbs with a smiter. There aren't a lot of good smiters or good ww barbs left anymore, but the best vs. the best, it is generally the ww barb that wins, assuming he has enough ar. Smart smiter NEVER follows a ww.
--welt
Module88
13-05-2004, 01:33
slow missile is one-sided, using it will make your opponent attack very ineffective in some matchups, so it is the same as using full absorb. But other off-class skills like teleport, how can teleport be one-sided?
Ok, but in necro/druid/hammerdin duels, like mentioned, wouldn't that be the same thing? Both sides can benefit from it, since that happens to be what you used to defend the other "bm" things.
"For casters, specifically bone necro vs wind druid vs hammerdin, the only thing i can see being BMed is slow missile charges."
"If both melees are fighting each other, why are life tap, holyfreeze, fanaticism... BMed?"
Think about that for a minute.
Ok, but in necro/druid/hammerdin duels, like mentioned, wouldn't that be the same thing? Both sides can benefit from it, since that happens to be what you used to defend the other "bm" things.
"For casters, specifically bone necro vs wind druid vs hammerdin, the only thing i can see being BMed is slow missile charges."
"If both melees are fighting each other, why are life tap, holyfreeze, fanaticism... BMed?"
Think about that for a minute.
Slow missile works against the necro; it doesn't affect the hamemrdin, and the way the druid is dueling with tele, i don't think it hurt wind druid either.
A PvP Smiter can lose against a Barb if the Barb does some general planning against a smiter.
For me, I use Triangle WW Method trying to get the smiter to chase me as I WW, I find this highly effective.
this works also let em come/run to u and ww into em
i beat most smiters but some just have a plain annyoing bm'ed style and set up talking about bug tals (eu only) stats are 2 skill 25%dr 25% f/w ontop of the org tals. that HF runewordn or arstorns exile + draculs amp and the works cant help loosing to such incompetent lamers sometimes :uhhuh:
but it dosent happen alot
i tryed with 2 botd axe's and axe/shield and i find 2 axe's is be the best tough i havent tryed a botd great poleaxe yet i quite sure it will do good fore the range is 5 and most smiters have a range of 2.
gathering the things to making it as we speak :)
cheers nck
Module88
13-05-2004, 07:50
Slow missile works against the necro; it doesn't affect the hamemrdin, and the way the druid is dueling with tele, i don't think it hurt wind druid either.
I don't know about you, but it's much easier to dodge something moving half the speed. Wind druids use tornado as a primary attack. Hurricane simply helps with the stunlock, since it has minimal damage with reasonable cold resist. It affects all three.
I don't know about you, but it's much easier to dodge something moving half the speed. Wind druids use tornado as a primary attack. Hurricane simply helps with the stunlock, since it has minimal damage with reasonable cold resist. It affects all three.
Maybe you haven't seen any tele winddruid or hammerdin yet. Their tele/attack(hammer or tornado) is as fast and as accurate as the player behind it, and is not affected by slow missile. With this attack, hammerdin and wind druid can deliver heavy damage to any target if it stops moving for a small fraction of a second.
btw, if you don't know anything about tele hammerdin or winddruid, you should learn by dueling vs them, with them or ask questions in their forums before making these arguments.
Module88
13-05-2004, 08:21
Maybe you haven't seen any tele winddruid or hammerdin yet. Their tele/attack(hammer or tornado) is as fast and as accurate as the player behind it, and is not affected by slow missile. With this attack, hammerdin and wind druid can deliver heavy damage to any target if it stops moving for a small fraction of a second.
btw, if you don't know anything about tele hammerdin or winddruid, you should learn by dueling vs them, with them or ask questions in their forums before making these arguments.
Slow missile slows the attacks 50%. How can you justify, at ALL, that their attacks are as fast and accurate when tornadoes are unpredictable and hammers fly in a set zone at a set speed (unless slowed). Again, hammerdin's have to teleport at the 10 position if they HOPE to get a hit (unless the opponent lags or is otherwise stupid or slow). Any other position offers one second where the necro can teleport out and peg you from long distances.
Oh, and being a reasonably well known and very experienced dueler, I think I know what I'm talking about.
Slow missile slows the attacks 50%. How can you justify, at ALL, that their attacks are as fast and accurate when tornadoes are unpredictable and hammers fly in a set zone at a set speed (unless slowed). Again, hammerdin's have to teleport at the 10 position if they HOPE to get a hit (unless the opponent lags or is otherwise stupid or slow). Any other position offers one second where the necro can teleport out and peg you from long distances.
Oh, and being a reasonably well known and very experienced dueler, I think I know what I'm talking about.
I should stop trying to explain to you about tele/attack (hammer or tornado). Here is one last time: for tele/hammer, the hammer hits immediately as you cast it. You should go ask other ppls on this forum to convince yourself before saying that you are experienced telehammerdin dueler.
btw, hammers cannot be slowed. Hammers are inaccurate and random once they start flying. But tele/hammer attack is pin-point accurate.
Module88
14-05-2004, 01:56
I should stop trying to explain to you about tele/attack (hammer or tornado). Here is one last time: for tele/hammer, the hammer hits immediately as you cast it. You should go ask other ppls on this forum to convince yourself before saying that you are experienced telehammerdin dueler.
btw, hammers cannot be slowed. Hammers are inaccurate and random once they start flying. But tele/hammer attack is pin-point accurate.
Try to prove that. Really. Try.
Try to prove that. Really. Try.
Borrow any char from your friend on west ladder, preferably a good necro. I'll log on this weekend and show u. If u stop moving (to attack or whatever) for a small fraction of a second, you will get hit by tele/hammer. Any experienced tele hammerdin should know this.
EDIT: This is the last time I'll try to explain this to you. If you want to see it, I'll be on Sunday night (*IMFZZZZZ). Tell me your account. If you have never played telehammerdin or don't know how to play one, don't try to make your invalid points.
Module88
15-05-2004, 00:48
Borrow any char from your friend on west ladder, preferably a good necro. I'll log on this weekend and show u. If u stop moving (to attack or whatever) for a small fraction of a second, you will get hit by tele/hammer. Any experienced tele hammerdin should know this.
EDIT: This is the last time I'll try to explain this to you. If you want to see it, I'll be on Sunday night (*IMFZZZZZ). Tell me your account. If you have never played telehammerdin or don't know how to play one, don't try to make your invalid points.
Do you like, have selective memory? How many times do I have to tell you that I DON'T HAVE IT INSTALLED. I have no space on my 7.5 GB drive. I want to play, but I can't at the moment. I don't know any good necro friends, but again, try to prove that "for tele/hammer, the hammer hits immediately as you cast it." There is no way you are ever going to prove it hits all of the time, and though you didn't say it, you said, for tele hammer, it hits immediately as you cast it, implying no misses. I'm sure every once in a while they will get hit, but it certainly doesn't mean that if you stop for a fraction of a second to attack you will get hit. I mean if this were the case, no character would ever win against a hammerdin because they wouldn't be able to stop without being hit, which again, you can't prove. Again, I don't know any good necros, but even a mediocre test would do.
Do you like, have selective memory? How many times do I have to tell you that I DON'T HAVE IT INSTALLED. I have no space on my 7.5 GB drive. I want to play, but I can't at the moment. I don't know any good necro friends, but again, try to prove that "for tele/hammer, the hammer hits immediately as you cast it." There is no way you are ever going to prove it hits all of the time, and though you didn't say it, you said, for tele hammer, it hits immediately as you cast it, implying no misses. I'm sure every once in a while they will get hit, but it certainly doesn't mean that if you stop for a fraction of a second to attack you will get hit. I mean if this were the case, no character would ever win against a hammerdin because they wouldn't be able to stop without being hit, which again, you can't prove. Again, I don't know any good necros, but even a mediocre test would do.
Try tele on top of your target by namelocking, quickly switch to conc/hammer. If you need target practice and you can do tele/conc/hammer really fast and accurate with namelock, go to public game; when your tele hammerdin is on the same screen, any necro who cast 2 bonepirits (spears or teeths) or more b4 tele away is a dead necro. With timing, you can get the good necro once or twice in many tries even when they only cast once then tele away. If you are fast with tele/hammer, it is just as hard for the necro to hit you with their teeths/spears.
I did not go into details about tele/hammer in other posts because you said you were an experienced tele hammerdin.
Module88
15-05-2004, 08:11
Try tele on top of your target by namelocking, quickly switch to conc/hammer. If you need target practice and you can do tele/conc/hammer really fast and accurate with namelock, go to public game; when your tele hammerdin is on the same screen, any necro who cast 2 bonepirits (spears or teeths) or more b4 tele away is a dead necro. With timing, you can get the good necro once or twice in many tries even when they only cast once then tele away. If you are fast with tele/hammer, it is just as hard for the necro to hit you with their teeths/spears.
I did not go into details about tele/hammer in other posts because you said you were an experienced tele hammerdin.
I am experienced, but when you say things like "tele hammer" will hit your target right when you cast it, it makes me doubt your experience. It's not all that difficult to dodge, since, if you use your brain, count the fact that you only have to click once while he has to click twice. Considering equal skill, one click is much faster than two. Oh, and if you ever have the opportunity to keep on teleporting right on top of the guy with namelock, you obviously aren't dueling good people. As if you will be able to click their name often to teleport on them if they are teleporting also.
I am experienced, but when you say things like "tele hammer" will hit your target right when you cast it, it makes me doubt your experience. It's not all that difficult to dodge, since, if you use your brain, count the fact that you only have to click once while he has to click twice. Considering equal skill, one click is much faster than two. Oh, and if you ever have the opportunity to keep on teleporting right on top of the guy with namelock, you obviously aren't dueling good people. As if you will be able to click their name often to teleport on them if they are teleporting also.
I don't know what you mean clicking once vs twice; hammerdin has to cast tele and hammer (2 casts), and necro has to cast bs/spear/teeth and tele away (2 casts). If you are fast, switching to conc aura takes less than 1/5 the casting cooldown of necro or paladin at 9fpc.
If you didn't know about tele/hammer b4, it's ok. You don't have to be defensive and bring in the "dogde idea and such". All I was saying b4 was that tele/hammer is a pin-point attack, and that by doing tele/hammer, the hammer will hit the target as you cast it. Now if the target is dodge you before you cast the hammer then, you will miss.
About dueling good people or not, get the best necro on uswest/ladder and I'll duel him. Or let me borrow any hammerdin (hoto/cta/enigma and 125%fcr) and I'll duel any necro on any realm (preferably West for low-ping reason).
Module88
15-05-2004, 22:32
I don't know what you mean clicking once vs twice; hammerdin has to cast tele and hammer (2 casts), and necro has to cast bs/spear/teeth and tele away (2 casts).
What I mean by that is the necro should only fire once or twice before the hammerdin is withing one screen away (depending on initial position). By the time the hammerdin is close enough to teleport him, the necro should be gone.
If you are fast, switching to conc aura takes less than 1/5 the casting cooldown of necro or paladin at 9fpc.
Casting cooldown?
If you didn't know about tele/hammer b4, it's ok. You don't have to be defensive and bring in the "dogde idea and such". All I was saying b4 was that tele/hammer is a pin-point attack, and that by doing tele/hammer, the hammer will hit the target as you cast it. Now if the target is dodge you before you cast the hammer then, you will miss.
Pin point attack is what I'm trying to disprove here. That refers to a near 100% chance to hit, regardless of where the opponent moves. You can't possibly use your last sentence to defend yourself. If you dodge any missile attack before it is cast you will miss with everything. Hammers are not pin point weapons, and unless you can somehow miraculously click on your opponent every single time to cast a hammer (and that assumes he doesn't dodge as you teleport) then you will miss a good percentage of the time. If hammers truly are pin point weapons, then why is the hit/hammer ratio very low?
SwordOfJusticeX
15-05-2004, 22:47
god...... how did a thread called "barb who can beat a smiter" become a discussion for hammerdins vs necros?? :scratch:
-sword
Module88
15-05-2004, 22:51
god...... how did a thread called "barb who can beat a smiter" become a discussion for hammerdins vs necros?? :scratch:
-sword
It's two pages, you can look for it somewhere. :) I think it came from another thread in the paladin forum. =/
What I mean by that is the necro should only fire once or twice before the hammerdin is withing one screen away (depending on initial position). By the time the hammerdin is close enough to teleport him, the necro should be gone.
Casting cooldown?
Pin point attack is what I'm trying to disprove here. That refers to a near 100% chance to hit, regardless of where the opponent moves. You can't possibly use your last sentence to defend yourself. If you dodge any missile attack before it is cast you will miss with everything. Hammers are not pin point weapons, and unless you can somehow miraculously click on your opponent every single time to cast a hammer (and that assumes he doesn't dodge as you teleport) then you will miss a good percentage of the time. If hammers truly are pin point weapons, then why is the hit/hammer ratio very low?
If there is no cooldown or startup, why does it take 9 frames for each cast.
By pin-point attack, it means you can attack exactly anywhere on the screen. Again, if you are defensive, it's ok. You don't have to interpret "pin-point attack" as "auto-hit" to make you look like an experienced dueler. One example of pin-point attack is "bone spear"; you can aim and attack exactly any where you see on the screen (actually in a line, so call it "linear accuracy" if u want). Maybe "leap attack" is a better example of pin-point attack (slow but pin-point).
If you want to go further with this, I suggest you make an OT thread and ask for a vote: does "pin-point" mean "auto-hit"?
Module88
16-05-2004, 04:31
If there is no cooldown or startup, why does it take 9 frames for each cast.
That's not a cool down. That's how long it takes to cast. Cooldown would refer to delay time where you can't cast in a certain period after you cast. IE Blizzard.
By pin-point attack, it means you can attack exactly anywhere on the screen. Again, if you are defensive, it's ok. You don't have to interpret "pin-point attack" as "auto-hit" to make you look like an experienced dueler. One example of pin-point attack is "bone spear"; you can aim and attack exactly any where you see on the screen (actually in a line, so call it "linear accuracy" if u want). Maybe "leap attack" is a better example of pin-point attack (slow but pin-point).
So Pin Point does not refer to accuracy? Right, ok, so assuming it doesn't, your statement makes EVERY attack a pin point attack. You can use any attack to hit anywhere on the screen.
If you want to go further with this, I suggest you make an OT thread and ask for a vote: does "pin-point" mean "auto-hit"?
Or rather "That refers to a near 100% chance to hit, regardless of where the opponent moves."
"If hammers truly are pin point weapons, then why is the hit/hammer ratio very low?"
So Pin Point does not refer to accuracy? Right, ok, so assuming it doesn't, your statement makes EVERY attack a pin point attack. You can use any attack to hit anywhere on the screen.
It's my mistake. I should have stated that tele/hammer is a "range" pin-point attack. But then again, an experienced telehammerdin (or just teleporter) should know that.
Now don't dodge my question: does "pin-point" mean "auto-hit"? Make an OT poll about this if u want to clear up your confused brain.
Module88
16-05-2004, 07:36
It's my mistake. I should have stated that tele/hammer is a "range" pin-point attack. But then again, an experienced telehammerdin (or just teleporter) should know that.
Again, it's not. Oh, and don't question my experience with your stupidty. I'll answer with an equally simple response. "That would make every ranged attack a pin point attack." How predictable eh?
Now don't dodge my question: does "pin-point" mean "auto-hit"? Make an OT poll about this if u want to clear up your confused brain.
Now again, don't dodge my answer. Once again:
"Now don't dodge my question: does "pin-point" mean "auto-hit"?
"Or rather "That refers to a near 100% chance to hit, regardless of where the opponent moves. If hammers truly are pin point weapons, then why is the hit/hammer ratio very low?"
Perhaps you don't remember, but some arguement similar to this occured, and I believe it was Gohan who made the thread and was berated for it. Yes, hammers follow the exact same path every single time. The difference is where you cast it from. Regardless of that, this definition definitely is wrong. "By pin-point attack, it means you can attack exactly anywhere on the screen. "
ok.. if u tele to that spot and click hammer... the hammer will hit that spot... is that very difficult to understand, module? go talk about hammerdins on the OT thread hammerdin discussions this used to be barb vs smiter
Module88
16-05-2004, 20:20
ok.. if u tele to that spot and click hammer... the hammer will hit that spot... is that very difficult to understand, module? go talk about hammerdins on the OT thread hammerdin discussions this used to be barb vs smiter
And so will every other attack. Therefore, every attack is a pin point attack?
it is effective, but the minute a good smiter sees it, he shift charges out and sets up a new smite range, making you come to him. it is the only way to take out good barbs with a smiter. There aren't a lot of good smiters or good ww barbs left anymore, but the best vs. the best, it is generally the ww barb that wins, assuming he has enough ar. Smart smiter NEVER follows a ww.
--welt
I'd like to add to this that if using enigma, teleporting INTO the path of the barbs WW is very effective. 30k defense/75% block/50%pdr and >3k life (all attainable for a "godly" smiter) affords this kind of risk. If the smiter is using any chance to cast items I'd like to say if they cast before the smiter is at half life, the smiter should definitely win.
Also, walking back and forth is quite good at disrupting WW aim and getting inside range 3 for smite. I think this is really where the skill of the players comes into the equation. A lot of people here say things like "range 5 ww beats smite all day" (or words to that effect) but the reality is that the application of this theoretical advantage is quite difficult. As an aside, short WW's are not trivial and can very easily result in either undesirable name locking, or no WW at all (swinging attack due to lack of range) both of which spell multiple smite hits to the barb.
Also are we talking about PURE smiter here? smite is pretty cheap as far as skill points go, and max foh/-100% conviction is attainable at level ~85 in addition to smite. This is incredibly effective at whittling barbs down at a distance (annoyance resulting in rash moves like ww straight through a shift-click smite offensive) or at the very least forcing the barb to stack lightning resistance and use sub-optimal melee gear.
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