View Full Version : Opinions on off-class skills
boshekinthunder
09-05-2004, 14:08
Ever since 1.10 came out, there's been two sides arguing over the usage of off-class skills and aura stacking. It seems that it has become commonplace in pubbies (though anything that is powerful always does) and even many dueling leagues, clans etc. But there are also a lot of people that oppose it because of the inherent balance issues, such as CH and possibly the open duelers.
Im sure we've all heard the argument of unbalancing PvP vs. the argument of "it's in the game so deal with it," but I think it would be interesting to see just how many people here side with each argument, which is why Im making this poll.
When 1.10 first came out, I was against the off-class skills, particularily teleport. Then I gave in to it and have dueled quite a bit using these skills. Right now I am undecided on it all. With these skills, necros seem to be the top class, at least as much as zons were in 1.09. Though from what Ive seen of non-teleporting duels, it seems pallys would take this crown from the necro were these items abolished, and Im not entirely sure this would make things more balanced, especially with charge upgraded so much
Soepgroente
09-05-2004, 15:36
I'd add more; you can always -not- use them. It's just more options.
Los Sin Nombre
09-05-2004, 15:48
I would add more off char skills. Some makes some builds way too powerful (mainly tele and BO), but they also make some builds able to compete and adds more builds. For example, ZealBarb, no one thinks that's overpowered. Variety is what makes PvP fun.
Getting rid of Tele and BO would be fine. Those are the worst ones. Or should I say those are worst because of some BM-people.
I'd add more; you can always -not- use them. It's just more options.
Not true. If you don't use oskills, you're frequently at a disadvantage when faced with people who do. It's like saying that you don't have to wear equipment or use charms when dueling.
I would add more off char skills. Some makes some builds way too powerful (mainly tele and BO), but they also make some builds able to compete and adds more builds. For example, ZealBarb, no one thinks that's overpowered. Variety is what makes PvP fun.
Getting rid of Tele and BO would be fine. Those are the worst ones. Or should I say those are worst because of some BM-people.
The problem is, oskills do not increase variety. Instead, they decrease it.
The problem is, oskills come mostly in two packages: those that are useless in PvP, and those that are too good. For example, Wolfhowl allows a Barbarian to turn into a wolf and use Feral Rage, but who uses it? Likewise, who would want to build a ZealBarb with Whirlwind available and without access to the Sacrifice synergy? In contrast, skills like Teleport and BO are so good that almost everyone dueling is using them. That decreases variety; all of a sudden, all characters are using mostly the same skills and strategies. That's not good.
Here is my argument against off-class skills:
sirlin.net (a site on game design) states:
"A multiplayer game is balanced if a reasonably large number of options available to the player are viable—especially, but not limited to, during high-level play by expert players.
That was quite a mouthful. It basically means that game doesn’t degenerate down to a very small number of real options. This is a pretty broad definition since it encompasses the concept of “brokenness” as well. If, in chess, only pawns were used in tournament play (if pawns were so good as to be “broken”), I would say the game lacks balance, even though both players start with the same pieces. Another point of contention might be my use of the phrase “large number” rather than “large percentage” of viable options."
Most Off-class Skills violate that in the following ways:
1) Skills are frequently mainstays of the class (Teleport for sorcs, BO for barbs). By giving the skill to everyone, the class with that skill gets a significant nerf, as it is no longer the sole beneficiary of what the skill can provide.
2) Off-class skills stifle the viability of many classes. For example, playing a melee character would be near impossible if a ranged character plays extremely defensively with teleport, frequently keeping the melee character off of the screen. In the same token, the teleport could be used to force a shoot-out, killing anything that cannot tank or deal great deals of damage quickly. Battle Orders requires a character to use only one of the weapon switch slots, which destroys characters that use both weapon switches (hybrid caster/fighter, for example, that has both caster weapons/shield and fighter weapons/shield) and characters that don't have near-1-hit kill attacks (as a 1 hit kill attack will still kill someone with BO).
To address the issue that characters already have these skills:
a) One class having these skills is a lot better than all classes getting these skills.
b) The class that has the skill may be unable to use them in the most beneficial way. Sorceresses' spells have only a little more than 1 screen's range, and forcing a shoot-out at point blank range is generally not a good idea for them. Additionally, Barbarians tend to have a great deal of life already, and their other skills are not good enough to make that extra life and mana unfair (Whirlwind still requires careful timing AND aiming, unlike Charge, Bone Spirit, etc).
3) Usage of off-class skills makes many classes inferior versions of other classes. For example, if off-class skills are allowed, a Bowazon basically becomes a Necromancer without the mana to teleport. A Barbarian becomes a Paladin that requires more skill to play.
4) Usage of off-class skills decreases the effect of play skill. It is much harder to avoid an incoming Barbarian by running than it is by Teleporting.
5) Usage of off-class skills reduces diversity. Skills make the character, and using the same skills on different characters makes them more similar to each other.
6) Usage of off-class skills frequently requires no trade-off. Enigma comes with +2 skills, 45% run/walk, and a sick amount of Strength. Call to Arms uses a weapon switch. For many characters, these are not harsh at all.
There is, however, a rare third type of oskills: the balanced kind. These oskills manage to preserve class identity, and are often used as an oskill in ways differing from the way the skill is used. I only have one example: Whirlwind. Due to its class restrictions (Assassin only) and the low skill level, oskill Whirlwind is used in a dramatically different way than Whirlwind. Barbarians use Whirlwind to deal massive physical damage. In contrast, Assassins use Whirlwind to activate poison and Open Wounds. This, in effect, means that Chaos gives Assassins a whole different skill than what Barbarians get, increasing (rather than decreasing) variety and not upsetting balance.
Soepgroente
09-05-2004, 23:45
It's like saying that you don't have to wear equipment or use charms when dueling..
You could also agree on that. But there's no point in that. You can just agree with your opponent to take off the o-class skill things? :scratch:
-Infinite-
10-05-2004, 00:21
if its there...use it. if someone chooses not to, his problem, not yours.
SprChrgdCRX
10-05-2004, 00:21
You could also agree on that. But there's no point in that. You can just agree with your opponent to take off the o-class skill things? :scratch:
True, most honorable and respectable duelers will do that. But in pubby games, most of them are not. If you go into a public dueling game and ask everyone whos using enigma and cta to take them off, will they listen? Most of them won't, but some will. If 4 out of the other 7 people take off the oskill items, 3 still have them on. Therefore, 3 characters may have superior to the others. Or some may take them off, but as soon as you get outside, they might put them back on. You always get the ignorant people that interrupt a duel by attacking either party or both. Oskill items aide them in that because they can easily tele to you after they use their bo and just start wailing/casting on the dueler(s). Then if they feel threatened, they'll tele away. If you two had agreed to not wear your oskill items, then you two are at a disadvantage unless you're smart enough to leave it in your inventory.
Los Sin Nombre
10-05-2004, 00:43
The problem is, oskills do not increase variety. Instead, they decrease it.
The problem is, oskills come mostly in two packages: those that are useless in PvP, and those that are too good. For example, Wolfhowl allows a Barbarian to turn into a wolf and use Feral Rage, but who uses it? Likewise, who would want to build a ZealBarb with Whirlwind available and without access to the Sacrifice synergy? In contrast, skills like Teleport and BO are so good that almost everyone dueling is using them. That decreases variety; all of a sudden, all characters are using mostly the same skills and strategies. That's not good.
Why anyone would make Zealot Pala when Hammerdin is more powerful?
I have Zealbarb, why? Because I like to try weirder builds in PvP. And there is lot of Wolfbarbs out there. You'd be amazed how powerful it is.
Like I said; Tele and BO could be get rid off.
Granted I only duel in private games and we have good people there who follows rules and are fair.
I stay in my orginal statement; off char skills increases variety.
For example, Wolfhowl allows a Barbarian to turn into a wolf and use Feral Rage, but who uses it?
Many do and that build is a very nice pvp build, u should try it.
Must agree with los here bo and tele is the bad ones, most of the rest is funny:)
rgds svin
Mr.Glasscock
10-05-2004, 02:02
What annoys me the most out of all of this is that the people that use BO, tele, stack auras (and to a lesser extent amp and lifetap), is when they cry when they lose.
My paladin has only 1 aura active like normal, except for the short manual aura stack that one gets by switching auras quickly, I don't use BO or tele, and I go out and duel with all those paladins that use all of the above.
When they lose, they start screaming, literally :
"Dude wtf stop running." If i run more than a screenlength away from them (not to town).
"GOd noob stand still" : If i ever choose to move within the same screen to attack.
"Smite is so cheap" Coming from the Doom winddruid with BO, oaksage, mercenary, and teleport.
If anyone here uses these items, do not complain and be hypocritical of whoever beats you without them. It is so annoying that they come up with the most ******** excuses just because I have a better strategy than sitting there and teleporting here and there and casting 10k hammers or 5k spear/bs...
Just makes users of those items look that much more pathetic.
Ever since 1.10 came out, there's been two sides arguing over the usage of off-class skills and aura stacking. It seems that it has become commonplace in pubbies (though anything that is powerful always does) and even many dueling leagues, clans etc. But there are also a lot of people that oppose it because of the inherent balance issues, such as CH and possibly the open duelers.
Im sure we've all heard the argument of unbalancing PvP vs. the argument of "it's in the game so deal with it," but I think it would be interesting to see just how many people here side with each argument, which is why Im making this poll.
When 1.10 first came out, I was against the off-class skills, particularily teleport. Then I gave in to it and have dueled quite a bit using these skills. Right now I am undecided on it all. With these skills, necros seem to be the top class, at least as much as zons were in 1.09. Though from what Ive seen of non-teleporting duels, it seems pallys would take this crown from the necro were these items abolished, and Im not entirely sure this would make things more balanced, especially with charge upgraded so much
The addition of teleport had made dueling among several mainstream builds (namely hammerdin vs bone nec vs wind druid) alot more interesting. If you don't have the quick reflects or fast connection to compete in fast teleporting duels, then don't spoil the fun or discourage new players from experiencing it.
Fun dueling in d2, even more so in 1.10, is not about strategies; it's all about quick reflects and common sense. If you want strategies, then go play wc3.
How about this for those who like to get rid of off-class skills that they can't benefit from: "Ban one, then ban all, go play your d2 classic, and stop crying".
Mr.Glasscock
10-05-2004, 06:51
How are the people opposed to off-class skills ruining it for "new people"?
New people are not going to have CtA, enigma, exile, etc...
Teleport is making every single dueling game have the exact same builds and exact same strategy. It's pretty much just a race to see who has the better ping, and who has the most damage. There used to be skill and strategy in dueling, don't deny that, and now it's virtually gone.
Many time's in a game there are literally carbon copy's of the same characters. I've played with friend's characters such as a trapsin with oak, bo, and ls. I had very little trouble competing with all those pubbie duelers, even though it was my first time extensively using teleport, traps, and an assasin overall.
I think it's sad that dueling now can be picked up by any kid (not me, specifically :lol: ) and kill whatever little dignity dueling in d2 had left.
There are very little socketing choices, with everyone using runewords and such. In .09 it was very possible to use decent (not top-of-the line) legit gear and with skill and patience kill some of the better duelers. Now it's quite hopeless unless you've played for an extremely long time (like me) to win even 50% of the time in pubs.
How are the people opposed to off-class skills ruining it for "new people"?
New people are not going to have CtA, enigma, exile, etc...
Teleport is making every single dueling game have the exact same builds and exact same strategy. It's pretty much just a race to see who has the better ping, and who has the most damage. There used to be skill and strategy in dueling, don't deny that, and now it's virtually gone.
Many time's in a game there are literally carbon copy's of the same characters. I've played with friend's characters such as a trapsin with oak, bo, and ls. I had very little trouble competing with all those pubbie duelers, even though it was my first time extensively using teleport, traps, and an assasin overall.
I think it's sad that dueling now can be picked up by any kid (not me, specifically :lol: ) and kill whatever little dignity dueling in d2 had left.
There are very little socketing choices, with everyone using runewords and such. In .09 it was very possible to use decent (not top-of-the line) legit gear and with skill and patience kill some of the better duelers. Now it's quite hopeless unless you've played for an extremely long time (like me) to win even 50% of the time in pubs.
Trapsin is without a doubt the best noob killer if they don't absorb or have 95%resist or both. It takes virtually no effort to use trapsins killing noobs.
Strategies are never the strong point of playing d2 (don't confuse between learning to use a class and strategies).
About the "exact same ultimate race/build", what exactly is it? whatever your response may be, there is always a build to challenge it. Enigma is the main factor (along with skills) that eliminates the so called "supreme" build. It allows the players and their skills determining the outcomes rather than the builds such as in 1.09.
memememe173
10-05-2004, 08:17
letting only "non-godly" non class skills in the game is setting a double standard in a way...
People who complain about a certain skill are most likely the ones who can't use it well. Why would u complain about a skill being unfair when u can also use it?
Specifically, about teleport, if the sorc players are not complaining about it, no one else has a valid argument about it being unfair.
People who complain about a certain skill are most likely the ones who can't use it well. Why would u complain about a skill being unfair when u can also use it?
Specifically, about teleport, if the sorc players are not complaining about it, no one else has a valid argument about it being unfair.
no one ever said it was unfair really, it just detracts from the skills and strategies of duelers
i think the best idea is what zelc pointed out: whirlwind is on claws, and wolf is on a barb hat, so why not make offclass skills on class-specific items? for example, if an amazon-only spear gave +5 to burst of speed, it wouldnt be so unfair, it would just give a slight advantage to amazons using that spear...with enigma, etc it gives extremely useful skills to everyone, making for bland characters (as already stated by others in this thread)
and in response to sbc84s comment about what the 'supreme' build is:
the point wasnt that these super-builds are/arent unbeatable, the point was that due to overpowered items like enigma, everyone can make overpowered builds (hammerdins, bone necros, sorcs w/ warcries etc..) by getting rid of enigma (or at least replacing the teleport with something else amazing -- +5-10% absorb all anyone?), skills and strategy will once again be a part of dueling
no one ever said it was unfair really, it just detracts from the skills and strategies of duelers
and in response to sbc84s comment about what the 'supreme' build is:
the point wasnt that these super-builds are/arent unbeatable, the point was that due to overpowered items like enigma, everyone can make overpowered builds (hammerdins, bone necros, sorcs w/ warcries etc..) by getting rid of enigma (or at least replacing the teleport with something else amazing -- +5-10% absorb all anyone?), skills and strategy will once again be a part of dueling
PvP in D2 is not for anyone who like complicated strategies; it's for those who have some common senses.
I 100% disagree with you about teleport taking away the use of skills. I think that, by allowing everyone to teleport, it makes the duel more skill-dependent rather than item-dependent and class-dependent. Without teleports, the ones with better frw items have a better chance at winning. Without teleport, it is nearly impossible to deal with bone prisons if you don't have a high-damage area-effect attack to destroy it or some kind of jumping skill to get out of it.
Mr.Glasscock
11-05-2004, 06:32
Ok, how is teleport dueling NOT item dependant? You MUST have either enigma or an amulet that gives teleport to even be able to use the skill... it couldnt be more item dependant. I dont see how you came about this conclusion.
If played right, with strategy, good connection ( >< ), and good sportsmanship, (or whatever it's called for an online game, manners i guess) this game is more than mere "common sense."
Wahjot said it better than me; the point wasn't me saying those were unbeatable builds, it was that they were overpowered, with little or no skill required, thus taking away, as I already said, the little dignity, and point to dueling in D2, there was.
I actually find enigma on bone necros/hammerdins to actulaly make them worse at dueling. They get tele happy and dont takethe time to set up hammer/bone spell fields. Without those its much easier to take them out. And BO only gives more life which means more time to make mistakes, if the person is a "noob" or just isn't very talented they will only prolong their death a little longer. Now of course those 2 items in the hands of a skilled dueler makes a already hard duel even harder. Personally I would like to get rid of tele/BO since they promote a singular strategy. Its so much more fun to duel whren everyone hasa different strategy and build. As far as I am concerned dueling is about enjoying the fight, not winning. Any idiot can grab good gear and go kill other people and there is no fun in that for me. I personally choose to not use those items and its fun knowing that I can beat people rather easily despite "inferior" gear. Anyways I think that the items dont make dueling unfair, but makes them dull and boring.
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