V/t vs WW asn

[oncrack]

Is there anyway a V/T could beat a WW Asn?

[World Breaker]

dont u mean is there anyway a ww assasin can beat a v/t. the v/t jsut needs to stand still and shift smite and the assasin will be down in no time. Huge defense and max block make the ww sin useless

[oncrack]

If they go angelic though they have massive AR. They hit you, oW and Venom bam bam you're dead!

[evild2player]

If they go angelic though they have massive AR. They hit you, oW and Venom bam bam you're dead!
when they dragon flight to u, just walk away and they might ww and at that time u can hit them with foh then keep doing that till they dead :D. thats wat i do with my nec.

[Phyrexial]

when they dragon flight to u, just walk away and they might ww and at that time u can hit them with foh then keep doing that till they dead :D. thats wat i do with my nec.
A WW sin probably shouldn't be DFing to a v/t in the first place.

Most of the v/t pallies I've seen do just fine against even angelic/enchanted WW sins due to the insane Def they can achieve especially with Exile combined with max block. If the v/t is trying FoH the sin, that might be the problem since most WW sins will be using Fade anyway.

[World Breaker]

thats entirely my point , good v/t's r gonna be atleast 15k-30k defense even with angelic assasin r still not gonna be hitting much and as for venom , lol have u only got 500 life and -50 res or something, open wounds is your killer. This is one of ww sins hardest matchups in my opinion i cant see anyway a ww sin can beat a proper melee such as pala/barb

[Joe_smith]

thats entirely my point , good v/t's r gonna be atleast 15k-30k defense even with angelic assasin r still not gonna be hitting much and as for venom , lol have u only got 500 life and -50 res or something, open wounds is your killer. This is one of ww sins hardest matchups in my opinion i cant see anyway a ww sin can beat a proper melee such as pala/barb

don't undestimate ww sins with high lvl venom and bramble n stuff. it can do massive damage over very short periods of time.

[oncrack]

Hundreds of damage in .4 seconds with Venom, and open wounds based on character level.

So shift+smite should be able to beat an assassin?

[dkay]

they can block smite and FoH ( i think)
if they stun lock u THEN go in for wwing.. u can be in toruble -.-;;

[mrJ]

Hundreds of damage in .4 seconds with Venom, and open wounds based on character level.

So shift+smite should be able to beat an assassin?Most decent Smiters have open wounds as well, ahem.

[AndyChrono]

No WW-sin will ever take out a good barb. A Smiter however, is not as far-fetched as it may seem. 20-30k defense isn't a big deal. With Angelics and Enchant my WW-sin packs 30k AR. If I had an inventory of 3/20/20's it would be even higher. Unlike other classes, the WW-sin can block smite with claw block. Shift+smite alone doesn't cut it against a really good WW-sin.

[angl2k]

i have a pure smiter and ww assassins can give me a hard time if they play smart. but then i slap on my holy freeze and when they whirl they give me enough time to land a few (hard-hitting :P) hits.
unless the assassin has open wounds i can win most of them with holy freeze/shift-smite

[One_Line_Drawing]

You guys seem to forget that smite has Open Wounds and Crushing blow as well.

all the V/T has to do is just walk away from the WW, and then smite the assassin when she's WW him. cast FoH when she's running around....

It's a challenge, but not what you guys make it out to be.

[oRteP`AzN]

sorry but what is a WW ? :scratch:

[Newest Newb]

whirlwind.
And for your next questions answer (how does an assassin have whirlwind?)
It is granted by the runeword chaos (3 socket claws, FalOhmUM).

[dkay]

newest newb aint sucha newb after all :)

[World Breaker]

i still dont get how you achieve 30k ar on a ww sin. Their ww is such a low lvl the bonus to ar is really bad and i think they only have claw mastery that adds to ar(i may be wrong i dont have a ww sin) as for getting 30 k ar using enchant and 2 angelics you must have somehting else cos im sure my barb doesnt even get anyway near that using enchant, beast and 1 angelic 1 perf raven(he has enough dex for max block ss).This is with max ww and max wep mastery. Or are you counting in -%defense mods and adding it as a bonus to your ar.

[AndyChrono]

i still dont get how you achieve 30k ar on a ww sin. Their ww is such a low lvl the bonus to ar is really bad and i think they only have claw mastery that adds to ar(i may be wrong i dont have a ww sin) as for getting 30 k ar using enchant and 2 angelics you must have somehting else cos im sure my barb doesnt even get anyway near that using enchant, beast and 1 angelic 1 perf raven(he has enough dex for max block ss).This is with max ww and max wep mastery. Or are you counting in -%defense mods and adding it as a bonus to your ar.

Easy. First, you need a claw that has the "Fool's" Mod on it, which gives damage and HUGE AR per level. Then you put on the angelic items, enchant. Its best if you switch an armor to something that has cannot be frozen so you don't need to use 2 ravens because a second angelic ring adds MUCH more effective AR then the first one does. I can achieve max DR with just Shako, Fade, and Verdungos, so armor isn't a big deal for me. Add in a couple of charms that have AR on them (Fine/steel charms) and 30k is easy.

The reason your barb can't reach that AR is because I'm guessing BotD? The stat bonus gives negligable AR. Dex isn't really big on giving AR as each point only adds 5 points to your base AR. The fact that you have probably upwards of 200 dex or so means little. My assassin only has 95 base dex and about 150'ish without ravens. The difference between you and I is the second angelic ring and the weapon AR.

[Monger]

Any smiter will usually kill a ww assassin!

Not to say this is always the case, but it's tough for a ww sin to get the upper hand here. Unless the asn has very high AR she wont stand any chance...even if she does I think the matchup favors the pally.

[World Breaker]

finally someone that agrees with me

[D34D]

Easy. First, you need a claw that has the "Fool's" Mod on it, which gives damage and HUGE AR per level. Then you put on the angelic items, enchant. Its best if you switch an armor to something that has cannot be frozen so you don't need to use 2 ravens because a second angelic ring adds MUCH more effective AR then the first one does. I can achieve max DR with just Shako, Fade, and Verdungos, so armor isn't a big deal for me. Add in a couple of charms that have AR on them (Fine/steel charms) and 30k is easy.

My wwsin with full angelics and enchant from demon limb only hits about 18.5k ww ar. Am I reading this correctly, your 30kar gear is 1xchaos claw, 1xfools mod claw, shako, verdungo and some armor that has cbf on it ? I'm doubtfull you hit 30k even if you do, whats the point when you've sacrificed half of your best gear, i.e fury claw, 15/-15 nats or bramble :scratch:
I've taken out several smiters and I'm no dueling expert, if they are shift/smite and you keep ww through them you'll die, stand back wof/mb them pick your moment to ww. If the aren't shift/smiting then most of the time they die. I normally get killed by pallys because they've casted lifetap etc >.<
Ive had alot of smiters saying the thorns from bramble hurts them alot too, I didnt think thorns was any good now ?

[Module88]

Nope, if you've ever dueled an experienced one, foh or smite won't nail them before they kill you with OW and venom. Course, she did have BO and I didn't, but still =/ They do pose a challenge, and certainly aren't easy pickings for a V/t. /w *F1_Deathelement. US West NL,

[Krazy_Solo]

V/T is an Anti Melee build... Barbs are really the only Melee that can stand toe to toe with V/T (I should know I duel V/T all the time in 1.09)... Not much changes except FoH is used as a Stunning tool to lure a melee into smite range....

[Module88]

V/T is an Anti Melee build... Barbs are really the only Melee that can stand toe to toe with V/T (I should know I duel V/T all the time in 1.09)... Not much changes except FoH is used as a Stunning tool to lure a melee into smite range....

09 never had WW assassins. They are quite potent and pose a serious threat to v/ts, if the player is experienced.

[Mr.Glasscock]

Haha, well in the case of my .09 v/t with only 17k defense, I just predict where she's gonna hit, and stun her with foh.

If it's one of those usual pubbie WWsins then all they do is go around in the same pattern; its really easy to figure it out within 10 seconds. Smite when they get close, move outa the way quickly, WALK dont run, and try to lock her with conv and hit her w/ foh as much as possible.

The good ones usually tear u apart in the first 20 seconds; i think if you last longer than that you have a big chance of winning. That happens to me, at least.

I usually win with like 20 life left... but what a rush :surprise:

[AndyChrono]

My wwsin with full angelics and enchant from demon limb only hits about 18.5k ww ar. Am I reading this correctly, your 30kar gear is 1xchaos claw, 1xfools mod claw, shako, verdungo and some armor that has cbf on it ? I'm doubtfull you hit 30k even if you do, whats the point when you've sacrificed half of your best gear, i.e fury claw, 15/-15 nats or bramble :scratch:
I've taken out several smiters and I'm no dueling expert, if they are shift/smite and you keep ww through them you'll die, stand back wof/mb them pick your moment to ww. If the aren't shift/smiting then most of the time they die. I normally get killed by pallys because they've casted lifetap etc >.<
Ive had alot of smiters saying the thorns from bramble hurts them alot too, I didnt think thorns was any good now ?

First off. You MUST have the Fool's Claw as your first claw. WW AR only takes into account the AR from the first claw. Your 18.5k AR is only slightly lower than what I would have if Chaos was my first claw. Switch Chaos to second claw and your AR will skyrocket, and you can still WW. The only disadvantage is no magic damage. Open wounds you can make up for with an UM rune in the fool's claw.

Bramble is simply useless against a smiter. The only smiters you will have serious problems with are the exile ones, and those have such high chance to cast lifetap that thorns won't even scratch them.

[Dr4kan]

a good ww asn can kill a v/t,
one of the better combos are to use chaos/jade talon for res, or chaos/fury,
get 60% block, to block smite/foh, and stack lightning res, get a decent lvl fade(use shadow skillers to boost blocking/fade res/dr and venom dam,) use 2 x angelic rings/ammy, gore riders would be ok, otherwise rares with res.
basically try get high ar, good res and have decent enough life to survive the smites. CoH is a good armor for this, as is CoA with 2 x um runes for ex.

get decent amount of critical/open wounds/chrushing blow, and use DoD to sort of cut them of from walking out of ur ww.
the worst are exile palas tho, lame shield if u ask me, u will win or not, its actually jus decided by whether or not the pala triggers life tap. a good tactic tho is to use 4-5 traps+mb and dflight to him and start whirling, he will get stunned pretty good, and u can have good trap dam to kill him eventually, they wont do as high dam as most pure trappers, but it will keep him at bay.

20 claw mastery
20 light sentry
20 death sentry
20 claw mastery
rest into other light sentry synergies or venom

this should give u pretty decent trap dam, tho i mostly go for high venom dam, but vs barbs and other powerful melee, u might want to have high dam traps in order to kill em(going toe to toe vs a 20k+ barb with 6k+ life and 5k+ dam is a bad idea)

also dunno how many of u ppl use it, but cloak of shadows has helped me alot, reducing the palas defense is real good.

[Weltkriegpally]

I am not of the opinion that a ww sin is the perfect build to kill a properly played v/t. I have played one for 2 years now, both 1.10 and 1.09. I have dueled several ww sins without a single loss. I applied a lesson I learned in 1.09...don't let them outrange you. If the smiter shift+smites and uses a range 3 weapon vs. a claw (pretty sure it is range 1), he will get a hit in before the assassin can quite get to him and as the assassin whirls away he will get at least another free hit. If they use the barbarian dod, then shift charge out and make the assassin come to you. A smiter is a fool to let a whirler start that and keep it up. Remember that both attacks are very uninterruptible. That is to say, the assassin will keep whirling, but the pally can get out. If you want to beat one, then make sure you keep on moving out. Other things to remember, keep walk on, charging right after the whirl is a good way to land a free hit in, foh+conviction isn't bad, but make sure you have 30 faster cast or more to get the foh off before getting attacked, some fhr is needed, but you can use either smite or charge to break stun lock. Most of the other things you have to remember you will learn by experience.

--welt

[Module88]

I wouldn't exactly follow D's route of traps. Traps come to nothing with proper resistance and a bit of absorb. Welt, just duel F1_Deathelement, if you are on west. He's one, but I'm sure there are at least a couple good ones lying around. No, most WW sins aren't all that competent. Most.

[Weltkriegpally]

Welt, just duel F1_Deathelement, if you are on west. He's one, but I'm sure there are at least a couple good ones lying around. No, most WW sins aren't all that competent. Most.

Well, module88, I am on east. Supposedly, KodachiYsanne has or had a good dual claw sin for whirling. I did see him duel some of my friends before I got back into the game, and I will admit he seemed competent at the time. I am thinking about trying to come to west; I replied to the thread in the paladin forum about it. However, I am not sure if that idea is still going through or not. If I do end up making a transistion to west, then I will happily duel the guy you suggested. I always like a good multiclass duel.

--welt

[Module88]

Well, module88, I am on east. Supposedly, KodachiYsanne has or had a good dual claw sin for whirling. I did see him duel some of my friends before I got back into the game, and I will admit he seemed competent at the time. I am thinking about trying to come to west; I replied to the thread in the paladin forum about it. However, I am not sure if that idea is still going through or not. If I do end up making a transistion to west, then I will happily duel the guy you suggested. I always like a good multiclass duel.

--welt

Well I don't really know many easties left, but gear and build is incredibly important for the WW assassin, probably more than most other classes.

[Kodachi_ysaane]

Well, module88, I am on east. Supposedly, KodachiYsanne has or had a good dual claw sin for whirling. I did see him duel some of my friends before I got back into the game, and I will admit he seemed competent at the time. I am thinking about trying to come to west; I replied to the thread in the paladin forum about it. However, I am not sure if that idea is still going through or not. If I do end up making a transistion to west, then I will happily duel the guy you suggested. I always like a good multiclass duel.

--welt

yea my ww sin is equipped again, at least partially =p

[Weltkriegpally]

yea my ww sin is equipped again, at least partially =p

well, that much is good news. Unfortunately, my 1.09 v/t is down until I rebuild to use my new acquisitions. When I do get him rebuilt, I will be happy to duel.

--welt

[ReallFugitive]

well, that much is good news. Unfortunately, my 1.09 v/t is down until I rebuild to use my new acquisitions. When I do get him rebuilt, I will be happy to duel.

--welt

Claw is range 2. From experience quite possibly the most annoying thing that you could ever do to beat a good assassin would stay in 1 place and not move at all. Exile is a must because it allows you to lower the chance of being hit significantly. Shift+Smite. Don't move at all, that is the most annoying thing ever in my opinion. Usually in these duels I end up having only 1000-2000 life left.

On the other end, the pally is likely to have really bad fire resistances so it is possible to chop him up with a low level wake of fire/mindblast stun while he tries to charge out.

[Weltkriegpally]

[QUOTE=ReallFugitive}On the other end, the pally is likely to have really bad fire resistances so it is possible to chop him up with a low level wake of fire/mindblast stun while he tries to charge out.[/QUOTE]
thanks for clearing up my mistake on the range 2. At any rate, my paladins still outrange them. I can't understand why any paladin would have bad fire resistance. Even in 1.09 gear, mine always has 80 fire resist.

--welt

[strength_honor]

easy to beat WWsin or Trapsin

-_-

hit the asn twice with OW smite in 8 sec intervals and turn on meditation and charge for 15min then you win. If using exile it will be like eating salad.



WW Range for Asn is 3...

[evo]

easy to beat WWsin or Trapsin

-_-

hit the asn twice with OW smite in 8 sec intervals and turn on meditation and charge for 15min then you win. If using exile it will be like eating salad.



WW Range for Asn is 3...

lifetap is the probably the only thing saving smiters

i should know i have one

not to talk crap but if lifetap doesn't cast then the wwsin will more than likely win if rightly equip'd

[mrJ]

My v/t had at the very most, marginal trouble with competent ww sins, and not once did I ever have to rely on what I consider bm gear, ie. exile, cta, DOOM..(oh what a pos this thing is)

Granted, I haven't dueled even a fraction of the sins out there. However, I still do think that a properly built/played Smiter, v/t, or what have you, would still have the advantage against such an Assassin build, trap hybrids not withstanding.

[D1ce]

My v/t had at the very most, marginal trouble with competent ww sins, and not once did I ever have to rely on what I consider bm gear, ie. exile, cta, DOOM..(oh what a pos this thing is)

Granted, I haven't dueled even a fraction of the sins out there. However, I still do think that a properly built/played Smiter, v/t, or what have you, would still have the advantage against such an Assassin build, trap hybrids not withstanding.

what realm? ladder or non? if your on useast ladder i'll duel u with my sin.

[mrJ]

I'm sorry, I was on USWest, non ladder with my v/t, but he is no more. (Again...)

[Kodachi_ysaane]

lifetap is not a problem for ww asns. notice fade? lifetap disapears in a few seconds... just outwait the tap, if they go offensive, juts ww away until tap is gone. The hardest challenge I have ever faught was a V/t with 75% open wounds and like level 98. His open wounds brought me down to insanely small life, and finished with foh. Attacked in a very similar manner to a MB/ww sin.

[evo]

lifetap is not a problem for ww asns. notice fade? lifetap disapears in a few seconds... just outwait the tap, if they go offensive, juts ww away until tap is gone. The hardest challenge I have ever faught was a V/t with 75% open wounds and like level 98. His open wounds brought me down to insanely small life, and finished with foh. Attacked in a very similar manner to a MB/ww sin.

that is an excellent point but healing is healing

i can get them to about 10% life and two smites later they're at full.. they can have lifetap casted and get to full life in 1ww from my sin

b/m

[Module88]

From a good WW sin, one hit and you are out. Venom and OW will knock your life down to almost nothing (least it did for me). He did have bo, so I haven't seen a duel without it. Maybe it was the bo that killed me. Maybe. =/ Still, one hit, and I was at or near one health, and a DF would kill me.

[agmr2]

whirlwind.
And for your next questions answer (how does an assassin have whirlwind?)
It is granted by the runeword chaos (3 socket claws, FalOhmUM).

that is correct

[strength_honor]

I never use LifeTap in V/T vs WW duel...

WW/Trap/MB is really mana consuming. So if the WWsin dont drink Mana Potion, a V/T with meditation just using Vigor/Meditation Charge circling + just keep FOH will kill him if the V/T has good patience. sure the dmg can be reduced by T-God/90%LR setup(single adsorb for PvP rule) but still 40-50 dmg FOH will kill you in 70 hits give or take if Life Replenish on Angelic Ring is considered. Also using T-God would mean lower DR%, Dual Claw will mean low Defence against Charge... I even hotkey Zeal when vs WWsin too. My 3000AR Silence PhaseBlade Zeal seems to hit w/o any trouble at all.

If they do drink mana potion, you can drink antidote potion too. ( Which I have never done...)

[Joe_smith]

From a good WW sin, one hit and you are out. Venom and OW will knock your life down to almost nothing (least it did for me). He did have bo, so I haven't seen a duel without it. Maybe it was the bo that killed me. Maybe. =/ Still, one hit, and I was at or near one health, and a DF would kill me.

get some + max pr, pdlr, and maybe a cta. poison shouldn't hurt u too much then the only problem is ow. but you have high def, block, and decent life(assuming decent gear) 1 ww should drain ur whole life bar.

[Module88]

get some + max pr, pdlr, and maybe a cta. poison shouldn't hurt u too much then the only problem is ow. but you have high def, block, and decent life(assuming decent gear) 1 ww should drain ur whole life bar.

CTA doesn't come cheap, and my old pally has around 2100 life, without CTA. Still, one WW knocks down my life with max resistances.

[Joe_smith]

CTA doesn't come cheap, and my old pally has around 2100 life, without CTA. Still, one WW knocks down my life with max resistances.

try prebuffing with antidote potions if they are allowed lol. and a +1 +2 cta cost like nothing but still help tremendously. also i'm guessing ur a 1.09 vt build try remaking a 1.10 vt. also maybe a few points in defiance would help your defense. (synergy to holy shield) but i'm guessing as a v/t u u'll problaby spend ur points on foh related skills. death's gloves might be good if u dont' need gloves for ias or ow that badly.

[Module88]

try prebuffing with antidote potions if they are allowed lol. and a +1 +2 cta cost like nothing but still help tremendously. also i'm guessing ur a 1.09 vt build try remaking a 1.10 vt. also maybe a few points in defiance would help your defense. (synergy to holy shield) but i'm guessing as a v/t u u'll problaby spend ur points on foh related skills. death's gloves might be good if u dont' need gloves for ias or ow that badly.

Actually, I'm an 08 v/t. Defiance doesn't help all that much. Don't need death's gloves, and I don't use potions in duels.

[Joe_smith]

Actually, I'm an 08 v/t. Defiance doesn't help all that much. Don't need death's gloves, and I don't use potions in duels.

you can use them before duels lol works well in pubbies where you have to face multiple opponents and if u can't get enough cold and or poison res it's a good idea to drink a bunch before duel.

[D34D]

If there's someone out there on west ladder with a good v/t (no life tap) who wants to duel my wwsin then /w me or pm me. This is NOT an I'm better than you challenge, I just want some practice against a good one cos they are a pain hehe. :thumbsup:

*d34dlad3

[Joe_smith]

If there's someone out there on west ladder with a good v/t (no life tap) who wants to duel my wwsin then /w me or pm me. This is NOT an I'm better than you challenge, I just want some practice against a good one cos they are a pain hehe. :thumbsup:

*d34dlad3

u don't mind amp? lol

[Module88]

you can use them before duels lol works well in pubbies where you have to face multiple opponents and if u can't get enough cold and or poison res it's a good idea to drink a bunch before duel.

There's no resistance problem. It just does a lot of damage, even with good resistance.

[DoC-Makaveli]

ww sin = throw blades = open wound them to 1 life! then psychic hammer! lolll

[hOOdw1nk]

Assassin actually has an edge against the v/t

Massive Mindblast + Wake of Fire

The v/t becomes stunned even with high fhr levels if you have 3 WoF goin at once. WW when they're stunned. Never WW when they aren't stunned. Watch out for FoH, absorb if needed. Rinse and repeat. GG

[BT-LightDash]

not true at all pally can get out of stun lock easily with fhr and charge plus u have to add in the fact that the ww sin will have sucky traps/mb and fcr

[Kodachi_ysaane]

not true at all pally can get out of stun lock easily with fhr and charge plus u have to add in the fact that the ww sin will have sucky traps/mb and fcr

Many ww sins can have decent traps, GREAT mb, and hit the 65% fcr mark if built for that purpose

[majorB]

Not that Im adding anything really useful to this discussion, but Ive only ever met one ww sin that really gives my v/t problems. On east nl the chars name is xSpace_ghost, or something like that, excellent assn. Otherwise, shift+smite and a couple fohs when they run away seems to work on most pubby ww sins Ive seen.

[mcm]

Deaths hand reduces poison effectiveness by a VAST amount.
Most smiters are weak, but a strong smiter with 3k+ smite, 3k+ life, max block, ~30k def, max psn resist, stacked auras, and chance to cast life tap or amp damage should not be beaten by a top ww assn.

[Module88]

Deaths hand reduces poison effectiveness by a VAST amount.
Most smiters are weak, but a strong smiter with 3k+ smite, 3k+ life, max block, ~30k def, max psn resist, stacked auras, and chance to cast life tap or amp damage should not be beaten by a top ww assn.

Death's only gives you resistance, and since I'd imagine you'd already have max resistance without it, it doesn't do squat. A "strong smiter?" With the gear you mentioned, to have chance to amp, you'd need at least a lacerator and exile/draculs. That being said, to have 30k defense with stacked auras, you are probably going to have to go the exile route. Now, as far as I'm concerned, that's all that you are going to get. I can't imagine a smiter using bramble for the thorns, and really, unless you have doom or beast or the like (if any more I forgot to mention) other auras aren't all that effective. But since you have that lacerator for amp, that's not an option.

Edit: I'm going to save myself the trouble now. I'm sure you are going to mention "but deaths has poison length reduce." .4 seconds gets cut down a percentage (pvp penalty for poison length reduce? Might be...). .4 seconds.

[DistortedRiff]

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about in ww sin vs smiter with the smiter having a high chance to win. If I'm fighting a smiter I just ww away if they're offensive, and circle them if the shift+smite. The only ones that kill me use doom+exile+cta. V/t is different though- unless I can stun them and move in quickly to ww, I don't usually win (unless they have a weak FoH/weak resist)

[BTB_SnakEEyeS]

Please excuse my ignorance. Someone was kind enough to explain ww. Will someone explain V/t for me? and perhaps leave a link to a V/t build guide so I can check it out?

thx.

[mrJ]

v/t = vindicator/templar = smite/foh, as the primary skills on a popular pally dueling build.

http://strategy.diabloii.net/news.php?id=533

[Snak69yeS]

thanks alot for the info.

[mcm]

Death's only gives you resistance, and since I'd imagine you'd already have max resistance without it, it doesn't do squat. A "strong smiter?" With the gear you mentioned, to have chance to amp, you'd need at least a lacerator and exile/draculs. That being said, to have 30k defense with stacked auras, you are probably going to have to go the exile route. Now, as far as I'm concerned, that's all that you are going to get. I can't imagine a smiter using bramble for the thorns, and really, unless you have doom or beast or the like (if any more I forgot to mention) other auras aren't all that effective. But since you have that lacerator for amp, that's not an option.

Edit: I'm going to save myself the trouble now. I'm sure you are going to mention "but deaths has poison length reduce." .4 seconds gets cut down a percentage (pvp penalty for poison length reduce? Might be...). .4 seconds.

Yes, it has 75% poison length reduction, there is not a PVP penalty for this, just like there is no penalty for "Physical Damage reduced by xx%". Turning .4 seconds (10 frames) into 1/4 of that, (2.5 frames = 2 rounded down.) This makes a huge difference. If you don't believe me, try it.

As an aside: This is also why I rate nats armour over bramble. WW assn vs WW assn, if I have deaths hand and nats armour, the opponents poison will last 1 frame. That's 1/10th of the original amount, which is pitiful if you are a poison centric build. Lets not even talk about the fact that nats can get 3 sockets.. (-15% enemy psn resist is FAR more damage than +50% dmg when combating 75% psn resist.)

In addition, scoff an antidote potion for +10% max resist poison. Lasts long enough.

BTW, I mentioned one piece of equipment, Deaths Hand. I said nothing about Lacerator. Doom beats it hands down IMHO (slows down WW, lets smite hit WAY more often during a WW pass.) The stacked auras I refer to are of course: Fanat, Holy Freeze, and Defiance. All highly effective for a smiter.

[dkay]

a 30k def v/t will force the wwsin to use angelic combo (or some type of ar provider) and the chances of hitting are still against them.. v/t utilises a skill that gives 100% chance hit.

the wwsin will prolly need a wizpike and liddless on switch if hes gonna mb/WoF lock cuz it can drain ur mana pretty quick and leave no mana for wwing. if the wwsin doesnt stunlock the pally the pally can simply foh from a distance and smite when the sin gets close.. in every scenario the v/t seems to do better than the sin

[Kodachi_ysaane]

Unfortunatly for paladins.. thta is untrue.
Strength_Honor and I went 10-10 when we were dueling.
I think we would both agree they are about even.

[strength_honor]

Unfortunatly for paladins.. thta is untrue.
Strength_Honor and I went 10-10 when we were dueling.
I think we would both agree they are about even.

I must protest !

the V/T I use have 2400 life only and ...

If I am using a lvl 90 1.10 V/T then I will have 2700+ life with 2800FOH/2800smite instead of 2400Smite/1800FoH...

so I would still say V/T vs WWsin is like 55/45 or 60/40...

close but V/T does have a small edge.

[HandofElysium]

Unfortunatly for paladins.. thta is untrue.
Strength_Honor and I went 10-10 when we were dueling.
I think we would both agree they are about even.

I would like to see how this would go vs a pure defiant smiter build
using a malice zerker or war axe. Though I don't seen anyone making this anytime soon. :(

[Blade]

I must protest !

the V/T I use have 2400 life only and ...

If I am using a lvl 90 1.10 V/T then I will have 2700+ life with 2800FOH/2800smite instead of 2400Smite/1800FoH...

so I would still say V/T vs WWsin is like 55/45 or 60/40...

close but V/T does have a small edge.
GG 1.06 V/T! ...we should make a 1.10 V/T sometime or another... my zon is still in the making :cheesy:.

[Module88]

Yes, it has 75% poison length reduction, there is not a PVP penalty for this, just like there is no penalty for "Physical Damage reduced by xx%". Turning .4 seconds (10 frames) into 1/4 of that, (2.5 frames = 2 rounded down.) This makes a huge difference. If you don't believe me, try it.

As an aside: This is also why I rate nats armour over bramble. WW assn vs WW assn, if I have deaths hand and nats armour, the opponents poison will last 1 frame. That's 1/10th of the original amount, which is pitiful if you are a poison centric build. Lets not even talk about the fact that nats can get 3 sockets.. (-15% enemy psn resist is FAR more damage than +50% dmg when combating 75% psn resist.)

In addition, scoff an antidote potion for +10% max resist poison. Lasts long enough.

So, when you have say, 500 poison damage, and reduce it via resistance, you end up with 125. Now, there are rumors of some sort of poison penalty in pvp, but I'm not quite sure. There is, I'm relatively sure, some penalty for poison reduce in different difficulties. Either way, poison isn't really the strong factor in winning the duel, since it doesn't do all that damage and can be easily resisted.

BTW, I mentioned one piece of equipment, Deaths Hand. I said nothing about Lacerator. Doom beats it hands down IMHO (slows down WW, lets smite hit WAY more often during a WW pass.) The stacked auras I refer to are of course: Fanat, Holy Freeze, and Defiance. All highly effective for a smiter.

Most smiters are weak, but a strong smiter with 3k+ smite, 3k+ life, max block, ~30k def, max psn resist, stacked auras, and chance to cast life tap or [B]amp damage[B] should not be beaten by a top ww assn.

So how does the amp come in? Besides Gavel...? I was under the impression WW speed for asns was constant. So if you were forced to use exile for that defiance, then, unless you were using shaftstop, you wouldn't have max damage reduce, correct? I suppose you could use the crown, but that strength requirement is way to high for a good smiter to be using.

[AndyChrono]

I must protest !

the V/T I use have 2400 life only and ...

If I am using a lvl 90 1.10 V/T then I will have 2700+ life with 2800FOH/2800smite instead of 2400Smite/1800FoH...

so I would still say V/T vs WWsin is like 55/45 or 60/40...

close but V/T does have a small edge.

A good V/T has the edge against a pure WW assassin. Poison is a fickle thing to rely on for damage, as a couple equipment switches and it does virtually no damage.

However, a hybrid Trap/WW assassin that doesn't rely on poison and decked out in the right gear can defeat just about any V/T. As a preemptive response: No, the traps aren't meant to do damage, but if they do, its just icing on the cake.

[Module88]

A good V/T has the edge against a pure WW assassin. Poison is a fickle thing to rely on for damage, as a couple equipment switches and it does virtually no damage.

However, a hybrid Trap/WW assassin that doesn't rely on poison and decked out in the right gear can defeat just about any V/T. As a preemptive response: No, the traps aren't meant to do damage, but if they do, its just icing on the cake.

Poison doesn't do the damage, it's the ow and the magic damage (coupled with elemental, claw, mastery, and other forms of damage, like deadly strike) that hurt the most. One hit from a good ww sin knocked my HP from 2000 to about 300 (From the ow and damage from the claw). Granted, my pally is an 08 build, but still, that was only one hit.

[AndyChrono]

Poison doesn't do the damage, it's the ow and the magic damage (coupled with elemental, claw, mastery, and other forms of damage, like deadly strike) that hurt the most. One hit from a good ww sin knocked my HP from 2000 to about 300 (From the ow and damage from the claw). Granted, my pally is an 08 build, but still, that was only one hit.

If that was true, you wouldn't see most WW assassins using Bramble and maxing Venom. Frankly, I think Venom and Bramble are a waste. There are better all around armors and a much better place to use points.

Using an outdated build to test damage is a bit misleading. My WW-sin with just average gear can sometimes kill my friend's 3k life 1.09 barb in 1 WW, no open wounds or venom involved, but that hardly means WW-sins will beat barbs. I've yet to see any decent paladin lose a significant amount of life from just 1 WW. Unless you are using an abusive amount of open wounds (Malice), open wounds won't activate as often as you'd like against a high defense paladin since you don't land as many hits.

[Module88]

If that was true, you wouldn't see most WW assassins using Bramble and maxing Venom. Frankly, I think Venom and Bramble are a waste. There are better all around armors and a much better place to use points.

Using an outdated build to test damage is a bit misleading. My WW-sin with just average gear can sometimes kill my friend's 3k life 1.09 barb in 1 WW, no open wounds or venom involved, but that hardly means WW-sins will beat barbs. I've yet to see any decent paladin lose a significant amount of life from just 1 WW. Unless you are using an abusive amount of open wounds (Malice), open wounds won't activate as often as you'd like against a high defense paladin since you don't land as many hits.

Well don't get me wrong, it does help. But I wouldn't consider it a primary source of damage. Trust me, this asn had plenty of ar to hit me a good chunk of the time. Obviously I was walking, but OW to me is fair game.

[Dr4kan]

to beat a hybrid pala(ie. vindi/templar) the sin can do exactly the same thing, have an elemental attack, u can build a ww sin that has high dam light sentry, by jus leaving the venom out(unless u want 1 point in it and let +skills increase the dam, to buff ur overall ww dam a bit) and go with synergies. this way u will be able to stun pretty well, and deal good damage while wwing him. the thing is, the pala wont be able to foh if hes stunned, and the sin still can have weapon block at a decent %(around 56% with 10 skill charms or so) this will both block foh/smite, and reduce his damage quite a bit longterm. now in order for the smiter to have that high defense he needs exile, and exile has life tap, so imo its unfair that he should be able to use it for leech. if not, then he might have 10k defense(u wont be able to invest many points in defiance for synergy, u will lose foh damage/conv lvls)
only a pure smiter can really gain that high smite dam/defense, the vindi/temp simply doesnt have enough skills to do it.

so the 30k def argument doesnt really hold imo. and sins do have cloak of shadows too :thumbsup:

[Watzit2ya]

Smite cannot be blocked, is there some rule where that doesnt apply against Claw blocking on sins? And it would be more like a Trapper with WW as backup, not a WW with trap's as backup, as Maxing venom is more of the staple to the WW build.

[HandofElysium]

Smite cannot be blocked, is there some rule where that doesnt apply against Claw blocking on sins? And it would be more like a Trapper with WW as backup, not a WW with trap's as backup, as Maxing venom is more of the staple to the WW build.

Smite can't be block with the exception of weapon block that a double claw sin has :D but even then 65% is max on weapon block

[Watzit2ya]

O thats pretty tight, didnt know that! I really dont know sins that well at all.

[strength_honor]

A good V/T has the edge against a pure WW assassin. Poison is a fickle thing to rely on for damage, as a couple equipment switches and it does virtually no damage.

However, a hybrid Trap/WW assassin that doesn't rely on poison and decked out in the right gear can defeat just about any V/T. As a preemptive response: No, the traps aren't meant to do damage, but if they do, its just icing on the cake.


Kodachi can answer you how his hybrid/WW sin do against V/T.

Pure Trappers, be them Light, Fire or Fire/Light, never stand a chance.

only WWsin with max SM + high MB stands good chance.

hybrid WWsin just mean weak SM, Traps which can be easily countered with T-god/Dwarf Star. V/T has much more flexible choice against WWsin. Plus Paladin has the meditation skill to replenish life/mana which allows defensive play.

OW can be used by both side, but judging that paladin can regain life faster, OW vs OW is much in favor of V/T side.

WW splashing for traps just mean low WW dmg and low Trap dmg, I use 2 Lo setup w/ T-God vs Light sin, or 80% FR w/ dwarf-star. which effectively absorb 4709 light dmg.

[AndyChrono]

Kodachi can answer you how his hybrid/WW sin do against V/T.

Pure Trappers, be them Light, Fire or Fire/Light, never stand a chance.

only WWsin with max SM + high MB stands good chance.

hybrid WWsin just mean weak SM, Traps which can be easily countered with T-god/Dwarf Star. V/T has much more flexible choice against WWsin. Plus Paladin has the meditation skill to replenish life/mana which allows defensive play.

OW can be used by both side, but judging that paladin can regain life faster, OW vs OW is much in favor of V/T side.

WW splashing for traps just mean low WW dmg and low Trap dmg, I use 2 Lo setup w/ T-God vs Light sin, or 80% FR w/ dwarf-star. which effectively absorb 4709 light dmg.

Low WW-damage? I beg to differ. If the assassin relied on Venom to do damage you could do the same thing by putting on some anti-poison gear and drastically reduce their damage. No SM charms? Big deal. Use some Fine Small Charms. With life if possible. Even just plain old life charms help tremendously since with the larger PvP penalty, more life > more damage. SM charms with good life are rather expensive....unless you're off ladder of course. And if you are off ladder, Fine small charms of vita are probably cheaper and better.

Traps in this duel are really just meant to keep you in stunlock. Frankly, I really don't care if my traps tickle you; the whole point is stunnage and some free WW's. It's really too bad you're on East or I'd direct you to someone I know. Any V/T's on West wanna take a shot?

[HandofElysium]

Low WW-damage? I beg to differ. If the assassin relied on Venom to do damage you could do the same thing by putting on some anti-poison gear and drastically reduce their damage. No SM charms? Big deal. Use some Fine Small Charms. With life if possible. Even just plain old life charms help tremendously since with the larger PvP penalty, more life > more damage. SM charms with good life are rather expensive....unless you're off ladder of course. And if you are off ladder, Fine small charms of vita are probably cheaper and better.

Traps in this duel are really just meant to keep you in stunlock. Frankly, I really don't care if my traps tickle you; the whole point is stunnage and some free WW's. It's really too bad you're on East or I'd direct you to someone I know. Any V/T's on West wanna take a shot?

Go to the pally forums to challenge. There are more than enough V/T that can give any sin a run for their money.

[strength_honor]

you speak as if Charging out of stun lock is of non-existence.

OW+Meditation/Charge is what gets WWsin.

Trap+WW+MB causes alot mana it is hard to think how people can continue pressuring with that.

on the other hand, paladin has meditation which regenerate mana 20 times faster(literally).

[Neuroff]

Kodachi can answer you how his hybrid/WW sin do against V/T.

Pure Trappers, be them Light, Fire or Fire/Light, never stand a chance.

only WWsin with max SM + high MB stands good chance.

hybrid WWsin just mean weak SM, Traps which can be easily countered with T-god/Dwarf Star. V/T has much more flexible choice against WWsin. Plus Paladin has the meditation skill to replenish life/mana which allows defensive play.

OW can be used by both side, but judging that paladin can regain life faster, OW vs OW is much in favor of V/T side.

WW splashing for traps just mean low WW dmg and low Trap dmg, I use 2 Lo setup w/ T-God vs Light sin, or 80% FR w/ dwarf-star. which effectively absorb 4709 light dmg.

Of course if you absorb you'll have a much higher chance of winning, but how about if you're not healing?

[FsF.Demon]

since wen has smite even become a skill other ppl accept in duels its so bm. also if theyre a v/t they probaly dont have a lot of ow and concentrate on more lite dmg. gl and hf playin.

[Module88]

you speak as if Charging out of stun lock is of non-existence.

OW+Meditation/Charge is what gets WWsin.

Trap+WW+MB causes alot mana it is hard to think how people can continue pressuring with that.

on the other hand, paladin has meditation which regenerate mana 20 times faster(literally).

And you speak as if Med is going to save you from death. Med doesn't heal all that fast, and certainly won't save you from DF (fixed the bug I imagine) and the ow. Now I suppose if you kept running and healing and running... Maybe. But she'd catch up.

[strength_honor]

Of course if you absorb you'll have a much higher chance of winning, but how about if you're not healing?

single absorb item + 95% resist is allowed in PvP rules.

And you speak as if Med is going to save you from death. Med doesn't heal all that fast, and certainly won't save you from DF (fixed the bug I imagine) and the ow. Now I suppose if you kept running and healing and running... Maybe. But she'd catch up.

I have 100% OW as well.

[mrJ]

since wen has smite even become a skill other ppl accept in duels its so bm.
No

also if theyre a v/t they probaly dont have a lot of ow and concentrate on more lite dmg.
And no again.

[Module88]

I have 100% OW as well.

Ok, so...?

[strength_honor]

Ok, so...?

.................................................. .................

[Module88]

.................................................. .................

Point is, they do more dmg per hit (a lot more I might add) and can block smite. Meditation isn't going to save you from it with its slow healing rate.

[Kodachi_ysaane]

hybrid trap/ww stands much less of a chance against v/t than pure ww sin.
Then again, every good ww sin will have 1 in wof anyway.
SH, I just rebuilt my sin and she now has 3900 life, but unfortunatly my new build cant use angelics... so you won't see her dueling alot of high def palas. (BTW I ened demon limb lol)
my new acct is *Koda-

[Weltkriegpally]

hybrid trap/ww stands much less of a chance against v/t than pure ww sin.
Then again, every good ww sin will have 1 in wof anyway.
SH, I just rebuilt my sin and she now has 3900 life, but unfortunatly my new build cant use angelics... so you won't see her dueling alot of high def palas. (BTW I ened demon limb lol)
my new acct is *Koda-

Hey Kodachi. It looks like I might be online in a week or 2 again. If I am, I will rebuild my 1.09 v/t to 1.10 standards, and we will duel then. Is it a match? We can settle this with an all class v/t vs. an all class ww assassin. I think many useast duelers can vouch for me that I am not an easy dueler(including yourself). we can settle this on the dueling field!

--welt

[Kodachi_ysaane]

I'll be waiting. :)