Health System = Potionfest again or not?

[Kiroptus]

Hack and slashes always adopted the potionfest approach to the health system, which means that once you are in danger you would madly tap the potion button to restore your health.

It certainly worked in Diablo1 and 2. But since Diablo3 has a chance to once again redefine Hack and Slash maybe its also time to rethink the health system? One quick example I would say was when FPS stoped from using health spread around the levels and used a "recovery time" that once you got cover your health would regenerate. I dont think that would work with a hack and slash but...

I dont know. I just feel that "potionfest" is a mechanic that should be looked at, maybe every one could have a heal skill (like Diablo1, where you could learn skills from books) or potions would be limited or you would need to stop for a while to drink it and if you took damage you would be interrupted.

Or more monsters with the fabled *Thief* mod, an ancient ability that "Lord De Seis" had that could make your potions drop. Unfortunately it was removed due to a bug.

I know we all love Diablo for its mindless fun but when this mindless fun can be refined, its always the better option, and somehow, mashing the potion button got old already. What you guys think?

[Mythic]

Lord de Seis was ****ing feared when he could do that.

[Kiroptus]

It was so fun! But it was removed because it could sometimes crash the game you were in and it seemed that it a bug deep built in the engine, so there was no fix so it was removed :(

[Lyrs]

reduce the number of potion rows to 1 or 2. partial takes up 1 slot, full takes up 2.

[Kiroptus]

But then everyone would just fill the inventory with potions anyway :/ it would be the same potionfest of always except that its now more annoying.

[Lyrs]

sure, but if they do that, they won't have room for charms or other items . potions are great for keeping the action going and letting the player have some breathing room, but it's also nice to control how much healing they can take with them. a smaller belt is one way to handle this situation.

[tuxor]

I think class-specific healing abilities would be nice. For instance a Barbarian, or it's Diablo 3 equivalent, could have a skill/ability that boosted Life Leech for a certain amount of time, and had a bit of a cooldown, or a mana cost large enough that you couldn't just spam it. I think it's something that was kind of tried in Diablo II, but wasn't quite there. The Druid has a Spirit to increase his life, as well as summons that regain health and mana for him, not to mention Hunger, whereas the Necromancer has Blood Golems and Life Tap and all that jazz, Sorceresses have Energy Shield and Warmth, Assassins have Cobra Strike, Paladins have Cleansing/Prayer/Holy Bolt. The thing was, as the game became more refined, those skills fell out of use, and people just potted like always. I think it would be very interesting to see the way Blizzard looks at potions v. skills in Diablo III, if it is coming.

[stillman]

I brought this issue up in another thread and people shot down my ideas for getting rid of potions. I suggested some of the ideas above, like healing spells/skills for each chr class. People said it was dumb to have a healing skill tree becasue it would make the chr do less damage, there would be a healer/tank party exploit, etc. The thing is though, there likely won't BE ANY skill trees in D3. As for exploits, the programmers will know how to design the game appropriately so things don't get exploited (i.e. they likely learned from D2). People also said potions are a vital part of RPGs and the Diablo world. I would argue, however, that D3 should be all new ideas and change the landscape of RPGs.

Potions need to go away forever. It is very unrealistic for a chr to unstopper and drink a potion while carrying a heavy shield and weapon while being swarmed by demons. Since the situation of drinking a potion in battle is impossible, we can expect that it will never be annimated. We players have made our chr's drink tens of thousands of potions, yet we haven't seen a single potion being consumed on the screen. I would like the animation of D3 to be superb, where you even see chr's reaching for drops on the ground, etc. In D2, the potions cheaply dissapear, and the empty bottle doesnt ever get shown. Wouldn't the bottles break with some hits?
Potions have been around in RPGs forever and they are indeed very old. They seem to make the game less frightening, since we know that it is Ok to get burned, poisoned, stabbed, etc with no concequence thanks to potions. Furthermore, the potion guzzling, having to pick up potions, go into your inventory, click the potions, move them to belt, check belt, all gets very repetitive and boring. Think of how many dozens of hours of gameplay you have spent managing the potions.

In addition to healing spells/skills, I would suggest a design where armor (def points) works the same as damage reduction. So a def of 10 means that when you get hit with physical damage, 10 points gets subtracted from the total damage you take. A percentage of the damage is taken away from the armor's durability. In other words, armor has more of a role in preventing damage. The current armor sytem is too similar to the old D&D rules--hit or miss; you take all damge or zero damage. That means, if you are wearing a full suit of armor and only your face is showing through an open visor, then every time you are hit, it is in the face and your face takes all the damage every time. The way it SHOULD work imo is like this: a throwing axe hits your chest for 20 damage, your breastplate gives you 15 def so the axe only does 5 damage to your body and you loose a bit of dur on the armor. If the axe was thrown less hard by a low leveler for only 6 damage, then it simply bounces off the armor for no damage at all--the attack has to match the 15 def to do damage. The D2 armor system implies that the axe can never hit the armor AND damage you--it only hits your exposed body parts or it hits your armor and bounces off for no damage. There are a few items that have damage reduction, but these tend to be rare magical properties.

Basically, I'm saying that ARMOR points should become a new life points cushion. It's just like a manashield except instead of mana, the armor loses durability points, so you lose both life and armor points when hit. Then, when you go to town you "heal" your armor by getting it repaired, and you rely on spells (with drawbacks) or improved life regeneration to regain life. Of course, godly armor can make you invincible in early parts of the game since all attacks bounce off, but there will always be magic thrown at you and no armor would make you immune to all magic.

Please do not argue "there is already a system like that--it's called mana shield". I want this sytem to be available for all playes, not just a caster. Would the game be less challenging because your armor is subtracting so much of the damage? Well, yes, but they could make the game chalenging by having the repair costs very high, and making good armor hard to come by. With the way the system works in D2, it feels like our chr's are nearly dying a thousand deaths and simply have an IV bag of potions so PvM damage doesn't matter. What I'm suggesting is that you don't lose so much life points in the first place, but you struggle with being in the poorhouse from armor repairs and have to play carefully putting up with slow regeneration being the only means of life recovery sometimes.

[Kiroptus]

I agree with every single word you posted stillman. Great Post.

[Dirkw]

I brought this issue up in another thread and people shot down my ideas for getting rid of potions. I suggested some of the ideas above, like healing spells/skills for each chr class. People said it was dumb to have a healing skill tree becasue it would make the chr do less damage, there would be a healer/tank party exploit, etc. The thing is though, there likely won't BE ANY skill trees in D3. As for exploits, the programmers will know how to design the game appropriately so things don't get exploited (i.e. they likely learned from D2). People also said potions are a vital part of RPGs and the Diablo world. I would argue, however, that D3 should be all new ideas and change the landscape of RPGs.

Potions need to go away forever. It is very unrealistic for a chr to unstopper and drink a potion while carrying a heavy shield and weapon while being swarmed by demons. Since the situation of drinking a potion in battle is impossible, we can expect that it will never be annimated. We players have made our chr's drink tens of thousands of potions, yet we haven't seen a single potion being consumed on the screen. I would like the animation of D3 to be superb, where you even see chr's reaching for drops on the ground, etc. In D2, the potions cheaply dissapear, and the empty bottle doesnt ever get shown. Wouldn't the bottles break with some hits?
Potions have been around in RPGs forever and they are indeed very old. They seem to make the game less frightening, since we know that it is Ok to get burned, poisoned, stabbed, etc with no concequence thanks to potions. Furthermore, the potion guzzling, having to pick up potions, go into your inventory, click the potions, move them to belt, check belt, all gets very repetitive and boring. Think of how many dozens of hours of gameplay you have spent managing the potions.

In addition to healing spells/skills, I would suggest a design where armor (def points) works the same as damage reduction. So a def of 10 means that when you get hit with physical damage, 10 points gets subtracted from the total damage you take. A percentage of the damage is taken away from the armor's durability. In other words, armor has more of a role in preventing damage. The current armor sytem is too similar to the old D&D rules--hit or miss; you take all damge or zero damage. That means, if you are wearing a full suit of armor and only your face is showing through an open visor, then every time you are hit, it is in the face and your face takes all the damage every time. The way it SHOULD work imo is like this: a throwing axe hits your chest for 20 damage, your breastplate gives you 15 def so the axe only does 5 damage to your body and you loose a bit of dur on the armor. If the axe was thrown less hard by a low leveler for only 6 damage, then it simply bounces off the armor for no damage at all--the attack has to match the 15 def to do damage. The D2 armor system implies that the axe can never hit the armor AND damage you--it only hits your exposed body parts or it hits your armor and bounces off for no damage. There are a few items that have damage reduction, but these tend to be rare magical properties.

Basically, I'm saying that ARMOR points should become a new life points cushion. It's just like a manashield except instead of mana, the armor loses durability points, so you lose both life and armor points when hit. Then, when you go to town you "heal" your armor by getting it repaired, and you rely on spells (with drawbacks) or improved life regeneration to regain life. Of course, godly armor can make you invincible in early parts of the game since all attacks bounce off, but there will always be magic thrown at you and no armor would make you immune to all magic.

Please do not argue "there is already a system like that--it's called mana shield". I want this sytem to be available for all playes, not just a caster. Would the game be less challenging because your armor is subtracting so much of the damage? Well, yes, but they could make the game chalenging by having the repair costs very high, and making good armor hard to come by. With the way the system works in D2, it feels like our chr's are nearly dying a thousand deaths and simply have an IV bag of potions so PvM damage doesn't matter. What I'm suggesting is that you don't lose so much life points in the first place, but you struggle with being in the poorhouse from armor repairs and have to play carefully putting up with slow regeneration being the only means of life recovery sometimes.

What about mana replenish?

[aishilee]

D2 is an old game.. give it a break..

looking at characters reaching into their bag packs to grab a potion would be realistic and nice..
but i think after sometime it would be very much time consuming and redundant.

[Planktonboy]

Perhaps they could just eliminate rejuv potions. They were the magic elixer that made bots so viable.

[tuxor]

For some reason I just got an intense desire for a futuristic ARPG that isn't horrible. Hellgate London.

But seriously, I don't think there needs to be a complete healing skill tree, but definitely a spell or two for every character, that is viable for solo characters. Of course, if you know you're going to be partied with a healer or something of that sort, you can not put points in it, but if you plan on doing a lot of solo stuff, perhaps MFing, you could put points into it to be decent.

On the issue of mana replenishment, they could do another thing, like Warmth for casters, and then also a skill that replenishes mana, either at a steady rate or a leech-type thing, which would have a negative affect on another aspect of your character. So, mana replenishment, but you lose health every time you hit a monster, or something similar to that.

I just realized how futile these threads are, as if Diablo III is going to be released next year, most of this stuff will have been flushed out. Of course, D3 may never come, so I suppose I'd be grateful even if the potion system sucked.

[leetserv]

"Potions need to go away forever. It is very unrealistic for a chr to unstopper and drink a potion while carrying a heavy shield and weapon while being swarmed by demons. Since the situation of drinking a potion in battle is impossible, we can expect that it will never be annimated. We players have made our chr's drink tens of thousands of potions, yet we haven't seen a single potion being consumed on the screen."

I stopped reading there. If you worked with game development i would kick you off the team. Games do not have to be realistic to be fun! This is the fundemental flaw that has spawned so many horrid games as the industry evolves. Some games, of course, like realistic shooters, car games, etc. but Diablo? Give me a break. It's arcadeish fun, and the fun lies in gameplay. What part of this game is realistic to you? And why should it need to be?

*ends nerd rage*

Sorry if i offended you, i just hate games being ruined because the developers had to make them more realistic.

[stillman]

Leetserv, that was just one complaint of mine about the cosmetic issues. The rest of my post explains a design to save us from spending so many accumulated hours dealing with potions.
Potions are such an old idea; I think way back when, we used to play games where once in a while you get a wonderful rare potion that grants your chr some power. Over the decades, this old thrill of getting a potion has been watered down so to speak. In Alice in Wonderland, Alice finds a potion that turns her into a giant--that's what potions sort of used to do. Now, they just crunch numbers.
I see your point about making games too realistic. Diablo is special though, and they should go the distance imo. I would not animate the potions, rather I'd get rid of them. But if the chrs were animated to drink, maybe it would be like shield block which interupts gameplay and is annoying. Maybe there should be a penalty for cheating death.

Dirkw, as for mana regenration, mana potions might not be as bad since you won't die for running out of mana. Just getting rid of life potions would remove about half of the potions and make the game twice as good imo.

[Mestre Crjspim]

Potions need to go away forever. It is very unrealistic for a chr to unstopper and drink a potion while carrying a heavy shield and weapon while being swarmed by demons. Since the situation of drinking a potion in battle is impossible, we can expect that it will never be annimated. We players have made our chr's drink tens of thousands of potions, yet we haven't seen a single potion being consumed on the screen. I would like the animation of D3 to be superb, where you even see chr's reaching for drops on the ground, etc. In D2, the potions cheaply dissapear, and the empty bottle doesnt ever get shown. Wouldn't the bottles break with some hits?

Try this game: Severance: Blade of Darkness, then tell something about fighting monsters and drinking potions in the midst of the battle.

Realism, uh? OMG... Diablo is defined as "a FANTASY role-playing game". In the world I live in, Fantasy is the complete opposite of realism... or maybe my dictionary isn't upgraded...

Furthermore Stillman, I honestly don't know every RPGs ou MMORPGs that are around, but now and again I see people complaining about the lack of pace of the great majority of these games. One of the most important features of the Diablo games was the fast paced action, jump in the game and fight zilions of monsters coming from everywhere. On this matter, potion use like in Diablo is the best form of keep fighting and fighting and fighting some more healing our wounds now and again. If I want a low paced action-adventure where I have time to watch TV and navigate "wiki" while I'm in combat, I have Guild Wars right here to do that. Diablo has it's core, has it's identity, has it's rythm and features. And till this day, millions of fans, including me, still play it, still eager for a game as envolving and satisfying as Diablo and more importantly still see in Diablo the model for comparison when a new RPG comes to the market. Maybe so many games are a disappointment, is due to the high standards and great expectations that Diablo created.

Finally, if you think bottles should break with "few hits", then I can say "wouldn't I die if an arrow stuck me right in the head"? Maybe you'll be satisfied with Darkfall, that will surely be a great game. In this one you'll get the "realism" you so desperatly need, leaving the fantasy to Diablo once again.

[Mythic]

Realism, uh? OMG... Diablo is defined as "a FANTASY role-playing game". In the world I live in, Fantasy is the complete opposite of realism... or maybe my dictionary isn't upgraded...


Worst argument ever for keeping stupid **** in games.

You can run around casting spells and slaying dragons all you want, and quaffing potions in the heat of battle is still unrealistic. It's about internal logic.

Now, whether that bothers you or not is a completely different question.

[Kiroptus]

Its not even about realism, its just an outdated and overused mechanic that could have some overhaul. Its just an extra refinement that could benefit ARPGs.

[Mestre Crjspim]

Worst argument ever for keeping stupid **** in games.

You can run around casting spells and slaying dragons all you want, and quaffing potions in the heat of battle is still unrealistic. It's about internal logic.

Now, whether that bothers you or not is a completely different question.

So you say: "It's obvious that a hit should break the bottles. It's obvious that in the heat of the battle you can't drink a potion... and no animation is just an abomination". But, hey, a good looking Crystal Sword is just the right choice for a rock solid weapon. And of course that when you are fighting you have all the necessary concentration to cast a spell with no worries at all. Oh, and don't forget, your stamina should only drop when you are running, because when you're trusting your weapon you just can't get tired... Is this "internal logic"?

And of corse it doesn't bother me, because I can have a simple debate with anyone, anytime... I respect other peoples opinions and I can very well live with different PoV from my own and with new argument challenges. Fortunetly, I am very found of diversity and opinion exchange.

[robzombiesslave]

I like potions because it adds that extra skill factor in the game. Could they do it differently of courseee. But I like the fact that I keep a nice line of rejuvies in slots 1 and 2. Mana in 3 and healing pots in 4. Just and to be able to press #1 when your bulb drops down 7/8ths of the way to save your life. Adds that skill imo.

Realism and action"rpg" dont usually mix together to well. If it were realistic you would run back to town get treated and wait for your wound to heal. :whistling: maybe you can sharpen your axe while waiting for days to heal? idk. :P sorry.... But comon, realism in diablo III? Is it realistic for meteors to fall from the skys and crash into the den of evil? Is it realistic to have an amazon shoot 600 APM? (Arrows per minute lol) Sins with blade fury, the list can go on..

Anyways enough about realism.. Yes it is true that potions are used very often in fantasy type games. Imo thats because it is an attractive feature.

[Mythic]

So you say: "It's obvious that a hit should break the bottles. It's obvious that in the heat of the battle you can't drink a potion... and no animation is just an abomination". But, hey, a good looking Crystal Sword is just the right choice for a rock solid weapon. And of course that when you are fighting you have all the necessary concentration to cast a spell with no worries at all. Oh, and don't forget, your stamina should only drop when you are running, because when you're trusting your weapon you just can't get tired... Is this "internal logic"?

And of corse it doesn't bother me, because I can have a simple debate with anyone, anytime... I respect other peoples opinions and I can very well live with different PoV from my own and with new argument challenges. Fortunetly, I am very found of diversity and opinion exchange.

If you actually read what I wrote, you would notice I was criticizing the argument itself, and I never gave any opinion on whether or not potions should be in the game.

[Kiroptus]

Anyways enough about realism.. Yes it is true that potions are used very often in fantasy type games. Imo thats because it is an attractive feature.

Not really an attractive feature but more like lazy game design. Having players mash the potion button to heal is the easy way out isntead of creating a reliable damage/heal system.

[stillman]

No one is saying the game needs to be completely realistic. The superhuman skills, the magic, the fantastic monsters all belong. The magic items belong too. I'm saying the game game can be improved with better animations.

Yes, I would certainly get rid of the crystal swords. There are enough swords in the game that it would not be missed. So getting rid of crystal swords would prevent us from being able to ask why they don't break--a slight advancement. An even better move would be to remove the potion idea, and put in healing scrolls which work exactly the same as potions, but just look like scrolls instead of potions. So your chrs speak the magic words while fighting (without even touching or reading the scroll) and the scroll goes poof because it has "heard" the spell words even while on the belt. In a backpack (i.e. inventory) the scroll can't hear the words so it must be on belt like potions. Then, no one like me can complain. No one would miss their healing items either, so we would all be very happy. Changing the graphics from potions to scrolls is not so hard to do, is it? The fact that Blizzard used the easy idea of potions instead shows they were a bit sloppy and unoriginal.

Should stamina get drained while attacking to make the game more real? Absolutely. Why not? It would make stamina less obsolete. I would just make str a part of it so vitality doesn't get too overpowered. And arrows killing you with one hit in the head? Well, how about instead monsters have a tiny percent chance for a critical strike. That would make the game a bit more thrilling when you get hurt really bad once in a while unexpectantly. Gosh, Mestre Crjspim, your very examples provide only more support for my argument about how easy it is to make the game more real AND fun without putting the vice grips on gamplay.

As for the fantasy world part of your debate, I would say casting a fireball counts as a good fantasy element, but having the potions dissapear from the screen is just progammer laziness. Are we to believe that the chrs drink at an insanely fast speed so that no one can even see it happening? Or maybe we should just presume the chrs run away, drink up, then go back to their exact possition and the monsters are all nice enough not to move in the mean time.

Is using potions really a skill? I would argue that it enables us to play with less skill since we can just get hit all the time. Just my opinion. Some one mentioned that going back to town to naturally heal for weeks is the basic argument, but this is not the case. There could be heal magic, faster regeneration, leech, etc. Again, I'm not asking for complete reality. And, mages COULD cast spells in the heat of battle, with intense concentration, training, experience, blocking out distractions, etc. We could just say that only magic words are needed without any arcane hand waving/gestures.

People like the game for it's dark and real content. For instance, all I hear about WoW is that it is cartoony, with no blood, and not realistic looking like D2.
I figgure if they make D3 more real, people would like it even more.

[Mestre Crjspim]

If you actually read what I wrote, you would notice I was criticizing the argument itself, and I never gave any opinion on whether or not potions should be in the game.


Worst argument ever(...)

Yes, you were really criticizing the argument...


(...) for keeping stupid **** in games.

(...)quaffing potions in the heat of battle is still unrealistic. It's about internal logic.

... nevertheless, this is an opinion about potions and their use... 'nough said?


Stillman, my arguments can go hand to hand with yours, because it's all about the same "internal logic" (as it is called around here) of the game. The reason why I wanted some more argument "fight" (not literally) is that a great amount of people in this thread/forum have pinpointed potion use as an unrealistic and uncompreesive feature, but that same people don't speak about other features that wouldn't really make sense nowadays. So, let's put all the cards in the table and see how many of them should really got out of the deck.

Potions, crystal swords, stamina, attack/movement speed variation depending on the type of armor you are wearing, critical hits, the list goes on...

Again on potion use... you said that scrolls would be a good alternative. However, scrolls have been implemented in the past... in Diablo I. And players didn't give it much use and some criticism came along. So they just sticked with the potions. What we are discussing now has been discussed in the past, but the other way around. I remember in my noob days at Diablo I... people laughed at me for using Healing Scrolls. It was our choice, our "demand" to keep potion use as it is. It was not all about programmers laziness...

I must underline that I would be delighted if a new, more coerent healing system got implemented, but I don't really care if they stick to potion use and keep the same fast paced action with multiple deaths and drops everywhere.

[ProfessionalBerg]

I brought this issue up in another thread and people shot down my ideas for getting rid of potions. I suggested some of the ideas above, like healing spells/skills for each chr class. People said it was dumb to have a healing skill tree becasue it would make the chr do less damage, there would be a healer/tank party exploit, etc. The thing is though, there likely won't BE ANY skill trees in D3. As for exploits, the programmers will know how to design the game appropriately so things don't get exploited (i.e. they likely learned from D2). People also said potions are a vital part of RPGs and the Diablo world. I would argue, however, that D3 should be all new ideas and change the landscape of RPGs.

Potions need to go away forever. It is very unrealistic for a chr to unstopper and drink a potion while carrying a heavy shield and weapon while being swarmed by demons. Since the situation of drinking a potion in battle is impossible, we can expect that it will never be annimated. We players have made our chr's drink tens of thousands of potions, yet we haven't seen a single potion being consumed on the screen. I would like the animation of D3 to be superb, where you even see chr's reaching for drops on the ground, etc. In D2, the potions cheaply dissapear, and the empty bottle doesnt ever get shown. Wouldn't the bottles break with some hits?
Potions have been around in RPGs forever and they are indeed very old. They seem to make the game less frightening, since we know that it is Ok to get burned, poisoned, stabbed, etc with no concequence thanks to potions. Furthermore, the potion guzzling, having to pick up potions, go into your inventory, click the potions, move them to belt, check belt, all gets very repetitive and boring. Think of how many dozens of hours of gameplay you have spent managing the potions.

In addition to healing spells/skills, I would suggest a design where armor (def points) works the same as damage reduction. So a def of 10 means that when you get hit with physical damage, 10 points gets subtracted from the total damage you take. A percentage of the damage is taken away from the armor's durability. In other words, armor has more of a role in preventing damage. The current armor sytem is too similar to the old D&D rules--hit or miss; you take all damge or zero damage. That means, if you are wearing a full suit of armor and only your face is showing through an open visor, then every time you are hit, it is in the face and your face takes all the damage every time. The way it SHOULD work imo is like this: a throwing axe hits your chest for 20 damage, your breastplate gives you 15 def so the axe only does 5 damage to your body and you loose a bit of dur on the armor. If the axe was thrown less hard by a low leveler for only 6 damage, then it simply bounces off the armor for no damage at all--the attack has to match the 15 def to do damage. The D2 armor system implies that the axe can never hit the armor AND damage you--it only hits your exposed body parts or it hits your armor and bounces off for no damage. There are a few items that have damage reduction, but these tend to be rare magical properties.

Basically, I'm saying that ARMOR points should become a new life points cushion. It's just like a manashield except instead of mana, the armor loses durability points, so you lose both life and armor points when hit. Then, when you go to town you "heal" your armor by getting it repaired, and you rely on spells (with drawbacks) or improved life regeneration to regain life. Of course, godly armor can make you invincible in early parts of the game since all attacks bounce off, but there will always be magic thrown at you and no armor would make you immune to all magic.

Please do not argue "there is already a system like that--it's called mana shield". I want this sytem to be available for all playes, not just a caster. Would the game be less challenging because your armor is subtracting so much of the damage? Well, yes, but they could make the game chalenging by having the repair costs very high, and making good armor hard to come by. With the way the system works in D2, it feels like our chr's are nearly dying a thousand deaths and simply have an IV bag of potions so PvM damage doesn't matter. What I'm suggesting is that you don't lose so much life points in the first place, but you struggle with being in the poorhouse from armor repairs and have to play carefully putting up with slow regeneration being the only means of life recovery sometimes.

You know, this sounds A LOT like Guild Wars. Not that I imply that it's bad, I love the Guild Wars gameplay. I agree on every point of your post.

[Kiroptus]

I certainly dont want the armor system to be back. Which gave % do make enemies miss instead of reducing your damage taken. It also needs a looked at. As stillman posted, it could be the solution to the potionfest issue.

[TraderScope]

I think Diablo3 could have Mythos-like potion using, meaning that you have your regular potion in your "belt" from where you can use it, but the potions are stacked. So 5-10 potions take up 1 slot.

[Opeeq]

Give me a BREAK :D

Healing scrolls, Potion-drinking animations, Item-picking animations?! lol

WHO NEEDS ANIMATIONS? I have played Neverwinter ALOT (for example), and even if it is a great game, I was irritated with the neverending reapeatness of animations: whenever i want to drink a potion or pickup an item, or cast a spell, give me a break, really!

I, personally have NEVER ever noticed that the potion system in D2 is not good. Unrealistic - yes, bad - no!

Imagine you do some cowruns and you have to wait 2-3 seconds to pick up ANY item on the ground.

Or those drop giveaways? How would that work? ^^

When do you get bored with diablo II? I get bored when I make all the chars I want and equip them, then I make a giveaway and start over, but fighting? Never

The potion system rocks, and the programmers made a great game without the unnecessary bull****. Because of this the game IS so dynamic!

If you want animations and realism, there are TONS of games that do that, but D3 doing it = failure

[Dirkw]

Yes, I would certainly get rid of the crystal swords. There are enough swords in the game that it would not be missed. So getting rid of crystal swords would prevent us from being able to ask why they don't break--a slight advancement.

What kind of advancement would that be? I can accept that 'some magical' sword can not break very easily and I don't see any objections to it. I think the way some weapons are intentionally designed opens up a lot of options. Phase blades, with their low damage though indestructibility, are very interesting in their own right. The underlying principle in this case is reliability/durability in exchange for damage and I find it very effective.


An even better move would be to remove the potion idea, and put in healing scrolls which work exactly the same as potions, but just look like scrolls instead of potions. So your chrs speak the magic words while fighting (without even touching or reading the scroll) and the scroll goes poof because it has "heard" the spell words even while on the belt. In a backpack (i.e. inventory) the scroll can't hear the words so it must be on belt like potions. Then, no one like me can complain. No one would miss their healing items either, so we would all be very happy. Changing the graphics from potions to scrolls is not so hard to do, is it? The fact that Blizzard used the easy idea of potions instead shows they were a bit sloppy and unoriginal.

But if that's all you are after, you're nitpicking. You're not arguing functionality, you're arguing the color and composition of pixels.


Should stamina get drained while attacking to make the game more real? Absolutely. Why not? It would make stamina less obsolete. I would just make str a part of it so vitality doesn't get too overpowered.

It's probably not wise to bear in mind d2's mechanics when you are considering d3's. Basically, you could consider the whole concept of vita/str/stamina/etc to be subject to chance anyway.


And arrows killing you with one hit in the head? Well, how about instead monsters have a tiny percent chance for a critical strike. That would make the game a bit more thrilling when you get hurt really bad once in a while unexpectantly.

D2 already features this (monsters have an x% chance to deliver a deadly strike, at least in hell, I'm not sure if that's true in norm or nm, although I hardly think it matters).
What you are referring to I think is an amount of special moves assigned to creatures, that can be as devastating as Nihlatak's CE or the Stygian Dolls' explosion. I'm sure there'll be some of that in d3, anyways, the concept of it is pretty basic and nothing new.
Unlike what you suggest it to be; especially because of the way PVM is designed, it will practically end up as matter of a monster dealing x damage vs a monster dealing x times y damage.
In terms of this transferring from d2 to d3, a lot depends on what the environment in d3 will be like in comparison to d2: if the quantity of monsters in d3 is relatively low, their quality will be relatively high, which could imply more of those 'spikey' ('especially noticable', if you will) occasions.

Anyway, too much danger coming from enemies means the player will have to resort to a more thought-out tactical approach, which would steer the game more into the direction of Guild Wars and in turn steer away from the concept of a hack and slash game.

As for the fantasy world part of your debate, I would say casting a fireball counts as a good fantasy element, but having the potions dissapear from the screen is just progammer laziness. Are we to believe that the chrs drink at an insanely fast speed so that no one can even see it happening? Or maybe we should just presume the chrs run away, drink up, then go back to their exact possition and the monsters are all nice enough not to move in the mean time.

Is using potions really a skill? I would argue that it enables us to play with less skill since we can just get hit all the time. Just my opinion. Some one mentioned that going back to town to naturally heal for weeks is the basic argument, but this is not the case. There could be heal magic, faster regeneration, leech, etc. Again, I'm not asking for complete reality. And, mages COULD cast spells in the heat of battle, with intense concentration, training, experience, blocking out distractions, etc. We could just say that only magic words are needed without any arcane hand waving/gestures.

Please, we're not arguing realism. We're arguing logic. Logic versus playability. While the idea of potions can seem pretty rudimentary, it's a very efficient solution to the problem that it (succesfully) tries to solve: how to keep the player in battle for extended periods of time without getting in the way of the actual gameplay?
Potions have been in RPGS and HnS games for ages, all because of the simple reason that nobody has found a good alternative for it that works as intuitively and smooth.

After all, a character's resources have to be limited, but a player can't have his lacking resources continuously demand attention.

The action itself deserves emphasis.
Sustenance of life/mana/whatever comes in very low on the list of things that players like to occupy themselves with, even lower than managing the inventory (read; going back to town to sell junk items, managing teleports, all the known d2 stuff). Just think of the relief that is called 'Insight'...
We don't like feeding ourselves the resources to keep casting spells and keep alive because it is a process that doesn't help us forward (like the action and exploring does) but only helps us 'be there'.

Now, how about helping others be there? Yeah, we all love that and I'm pretty much 100% sure that healing spells (especially aimed at party members and minions) will be much more prominent in d3 than in d2. I would say Holy Bolt is a very typical example of a badly executed skill, in that sense.


People like the game for it's dark and real content. For instance, all I hear about WoW is that it is cartoony, with no blood, and not realistic looking like D2.
I figgure if they make D3 more real, people would like it even more.

Maybe. We'll see, or we won't.

[Flux]

The key issue with potons, or not, is what it does to gameplay. If there are no potions or limited potions, then the game has to be slower paced and less dangerous. If there are lots of potions the game can be very fast paced and frantic. D2 is much faster and has far higher body counts than D1, but it's actually less of a potion fest (standard play style in D1 was to buy your entire inventory full of potions every time you visited town, and you would use up 30 or 40 potions clearing out the dungeon, filling found items in as you cleared space by using potions) largely thanks to leech being so prevalent.

Early verisons of D2 (which i got to play a bit during our visit to bliz north in 1999) were far more methodical and slow-paced. There were no potions for sale, and monsters didn't drop them either. Players had to scavenge monster organs and convert them into potions. Hearts made healing, brains made mana, other organs (spleens?) made stamina, etc. The Barb's find potion was originally called Find Heart, and it was very useful to get healing that was otherwise hard to come by. Check out the converting icon on the cube (http://www.diabloii.net/wiki/Horadric_Cube); ever notice that it's a heart with an arrow leading to a bottle? Now you know why.

All characters were going to have a healing skill(s) of some kind; the Amazon's tree was originally called passive and healing skills, for instance. Of the early healing skills only a few of the paladin's remained in for the final game.

During game dev the pace got faster and faster, and more potions were added in, and eventually NPCs sold health potions, and then mana potions were sold too. The converting items into potions feature was retained by moving it to the horadric cube.

If you want D3 to be fast paced, similar to D2, then you've got to include potions, or very quick ways for chars to heal, or else go to a full party-dependent RPG style where there are healer classes. If you want a slower, more methodical game where you take on individual monsters with strategy and caution, then you don't want a lot of potions or quick healing skills. Since the Diablo game model is now identified with fast action and individual heroes who are able to slaughter vast hordes of enemies, I can't see them going to a more careful, methodical game style in d3, hence i can't see a lack of potions (or some other fast-healing techniques).

[stillman]

Dirkw, my nitpicking about the potions to scrolls idea was to show how easy it would be to add a bit more reality to the game. Many people wanted to keep potions, so I figgure "what if the mechanics stayed exactly the same as potionfest, but the concept is changed to be more real?". I believe a more realistic game makes us get into it more. For the record, I would like neither potions nor scrolls to be in the game and armor to reduce damage in the first place, plus healing spells.

Opeeq, the animations I suggest would not have to consume annoying amounts of time. For example, on D2 when your chr picks up an item with no inventory space, the item flutters up into the air 10 feet and lands on the ground again. This animation happens very fast and does not interupt our playing. The added animation helps a lot imo. If there was no animation there, we might think we failed to click on it properly (for we who have no computer speakers). Also, the animations I want to see (like picking up things) could be interupted when you click to do something else since they are not essential. So you would get the item FAST and not always see the full animation if you are hurring.

Basically, I agree that gameplay comes first to animations, but animations (i.e. extra effort to boost the gameworld) don't necessarily have to hinder anything. But getting back to the main topic at hand, I think there are plenty of alternatives to potionfest. There's armor, life after each kill, leech, zon's passives, block, weapon blocking, DR, regeneration, spells, vendor heals, and so on. For D3, all they would have to do is make a lot of these more powerful and they could get rid of potions while still keeping the steady hack and slash style.

My best characters are those who's builds are based on not potion guzzling to save time. 100's of hours working on the potionfest problem? It just doesn't seem right.

[opis]

they solved it pretty simple in titan quest, and it got me thinking. you could carry 4 pots in four slots and that was it. imagine you had no beltsize differences, just 4 slots on any belt. then the pots were pretty big, they instantly healed about 30-50% and the rest of your life /mana over alittle time. then there was also a global cooldown on the pots, nothing fancy but like.. 5-10 seconds or so, just so to prevent the spamming.

the sum is that potions get alot less attention in the game, but they are more of a tactical thing, and everybody still has them. they drop alot less ofc, but still often enough so that if you quest at a regular pace you dont have to go buy pots every 5mins but you'd find one here, one there etc.

[Kiroptus]

Yay for no potionfest :D

[stillman]

Ha Ha. Looks like they made the right advancement. In the Q&A transcripts they specifically mention how the old way to handle an overwhelming situation was to run and drink a potion, but now they've made it so skills are to used. Also, gameplay decisions are more of a factor with those globes. Even though I don't know what those globes are, I think the new method is great. Though it reminds me a bit of those space shooter arcade games where your spaceship flies over a globe and it gives you some weapon bonus or w/e.
Oh well, anything is better than potions.

[Evasive]

Having read your large comment above stillman I like the armor idea. However, potions are in all rpg games. I don't think they will be removed completely.

[theseus]

Flux: I understand what you mean, potions are a lifesaver, however I think that in D3 the Developers are tending towards more dynamic use of skills, and picking up the Health Goblets (Whatever they are called) instead of quaffing a potion or Lifeleech.

Hard to tell because the Character on the demo was probably hax, but it seems that Health and Mana regen rate is much higher.

So for example your playing your Witch Doctor when you get ambush, rather than potting and running you use Horrify, kill a couple of mobs for health and then get space between you and the mobs for your minions to tank.

I'l would rather that than run away while potting, spam X spell.

Edit: I still don't mind potions but with a 10 second cooldown to prevent spamming.

[NotAgain]

Awwww. I remember the times when a covey of succubi would swarm me on low Clvl and the belt is gone within a second. Hope the potions are here to stay.

[StevenBrouwer]

Man I just hate healers in rpg. Monks in GW defined the complete outcome, other classes weren't as important. I say NO! to healing spells. I think potions are best for healing and I think this system in d3 is actually the best possible healing system in a rpg.
It fast and easy not annoying not a fest. I like it, could be the best.