View Full Version : Should pvm requirement remain for pvp?
Wondering on opinions of this - in D3 should you be able to create max level (or set level, for lld/mld) characters with accompanying character specific or more generally pvp-only gear, to be allowed access exclusively to pvp-only (no chests or enemies, presumably altered npcs) games.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who detests the entry barrier for pvp currently present in D2, demanding excessive pvm grind to be competitive, or the advantage given the richer players (particularly with pp items). On the one hand builds in pvp-only areas would be even more cookie-cutter, right down to the rare rings if given total customisation. On the other hand, there would be no excuse for ducking call outs and more people pvping.
There's no reason why pvp-only games and pvp in in pvm games couldn't co-exist, I actually don't support the idea of a 'no hostile' toggle on game creation.
Thoughts?
:coffee:
Diablo III will be ruined if your type of mentality is in the majority. That's all I have to say. This isn't Guild Wars II, but Diablo III. What's next, Capture the Flag? *cringe*
By my mentality, you mean wanting to be able to pvp without grinding excessively in pvm? Care to clarify that?
GW'd initial emphasis on skill>time, the foundation for any game that aspires to provide serious competition, is what attracted me to it and playing it til Nightfall. Still, much as I used to love GW pvp, I don't consider it comparable to D2 pvp, completely different player skillset being tested. And the item system is, perhaps by necessity, frankly boring in comparison.
By my mentality, you mean wanting to be able to pvp without grinding excessively in pvm?
That's more or less correct (don't feel like disbunking the strawman), and there's no need for me to waste my time clarifying. I just don't like your taste in gameplay, and I hope Blizzard doesn't either.
I personally hope that nothing of the ilk ever gets instituted.
While I'm interested in opinions, if I simply wanted to see where people stood on this and not why they stood there I would have done a poll. I have given one reason why I wouldn't like this implemented, the fully cookie-cutter setups being used en masse, if you have others I'd like to hear them. In all competitive games resistance to removing artificial and uninteresting pvp barriers is common, e.g. Sirlin's philosophy against over-complicated comboes in 2d fighters, so I'm not at all surprised to see disagreement. I can't understand it though; more people pvping means more opposition at all levels of play, and who wants to be required to grind hours of unskilled, repetitive play just to be able to compete with an unskilled kid with top gear fresh off ebay.
MoUsE_WiZ
30-06-2008, 03:31
I am 110% for that sort of system in WoW.
I am 110% against that system in D3.
Why am I against it for D3? Because hopefully D3 will have HC. But if you can rebuild instantly after death, what would the point of HC PvP be? The rush comes from having a fairly significant stake in the outcome of the fight, if there's no time investment, then who cares?
Why am I for it in WoW? WoW wants to be a competitive game. The rush there comes from being the best, not from earing someone on a lucky crit or avoiding death on a lucky block, and being the best shouldn't involve time spent.
Why do I want the two to not overlap? Because if I still wanted to play that sort of PvP I'd still be playing WoW or GW. Both are fun, my main b.net account has ~200 days/played, most of which is D2, my 3 warlocks combine for close ~150 days I think, maybe a bit more. If every game tries to be like WoW or GW in PvP, where would the rush of death come from?
so why not have all options available?
MoUsE_WiZ
30-06-2008, 03:50
Because it further divides the player base and hurts the community.
some of us aren't doing pvp at all.......some new options would give us a chance
Honestly, the gear requirements aren't particularly high for LLD. I know of a few people (Barry certainly comes to mind) who have made a killing - no pun intended - hunting during the ladder runs. Find a high damage weapon, carve a few ears, rinse and repeat.
Do a few Normal Mephisto runs and you can easily find Crushflange and some Sigon's parts. That's a solid low level kicker right there, meaning you can be PKKing within a day or two of the new ladder.
High level dueling is gear dependent, which has its ups and downs. It's hard to get into the high level PvP scene, as you have to risk so much gear (speaking HC here, never dueled in SC and don't ever plan to) and if it goes wrong you might get only one duel out the character. If we look at D2's past we see times when dupes were so rampant that every high level Barbarian was using almost identical gear (Ith weapons, CCBoQ, 3/20/20s and 40/15s have all been staples of PvP at times) and the scene became a joke. You would take the time, stat your barb out perfectly to get a bit of an edge and there was no reward. You could kill 20 Ith users and 20 more with identical gear would be right behind you, causing you to lose everything you worked for that one time someone got lucky crit rolls on consecutive hits.
This could theoretically be solved by having people create and design their own PvP characters with no time investment, but what's the point of PvP then? You make a Barbarian using your ideal gear (Str/AR/ED/Leech/IAS etc.) and you face another Barb with the same gear and the two of you whirl at each other until one dies - then you take 10 minutes rebuild and have a rematch. Yawn.
It's nice to be inclusive in PvP but by its nature I feel PvP should be exclusive. If you decide to risk your character by dueling another character you should do so with the understanding that you are risking your time and items for the thrill of the fight. If you spend 10 minutes creating a character and fight them to the death, sure you can get your feet wet in PvP, but you won't learn the correct whirl patterns as you won't have anything at risk and thus no reason to perfect your art.
PvP is a great game feature, and something I suggest everyone try at least once. I think that on the whole it should be a challenge above and beyond PvM and if you can custom create your character in a couple minutes it won't be that.
Take a brief example with Baranor and myself as combatants. Barry and I face off 50 times, he has skills I do not and a handle on PvP beyond my own, so he kills me the first 49 times. Each time I rebuild with the 'best' gear and one of two things happens: either I continue to throw the same tactics and approaches at him in which case I die the 50th time as well, or I change my approach and try some new tricks to give myself an edge. Option two is clearly the superior choice for me, as eventually I should stumble upon a new trick or tactic in my 'infinite' attempts. This moves the PvP scene forward and soon this tactic becomes the norm. Now someone improves on the Barb vs Barb matchup a bit more by adding an additional trick and so on and so on. At every juncture there arises a 'correct' way to fight that matchup and we have people facing off using the same approaches and the same gear. I personally wouldn't find it interesting to face another character with the exact same tactics, gear, life, blocking as me all day long.
Maybe there could be some sort of organized PvP scene on D3 that would be item restrictive or something. We run tournaments (used to be frequently) over in the HC world where no jewels or charms are allowed and everyone gets loot back. This allows people to PvP with no real loss except the time spent on the character and still leaves a degree of distinction between gear. I would wholeheartedly support some sort of LLD guild that you could join that would set down rules for its games and leave open the option of gear variance and honestly hope we see something like that in D3.
Wow, I feel like I've rambled to an insane degree here so I'll briefly sum up. In PvP you need a risk in order to create a distinction between duelers. This does not mean a hierarchy, but rather variance within the PvP arena. If everyone has the option of using the best gear at the highest level with no time commitment you get endless do-overs and no reason to treasure your creations. With an infinite amount of time spent dueling I fear we would reach a point that many games have (Age of Kings for example) where only one option is truly viable as it has been repeatedly tested and determined to be the 'best'. I don't want one dimensional PvP, I want PvP where people treasure their builds and think everything through because there is a real risk.
MoUsE_WiZ
30-06-2008, 09:09
some of us aren't doing pvp at all.......some new options would give us a chance
Question: How many people do you see doing dueling tournies on open b.net?
The feature you are asking for is already essentially in D2, and nobody uses it, least nobody from HC does... in my time on SC I never saw it being taken advantage of either, though it's possible that's changed in the last number of years.
Why does nobody use it? Because D2's PvP really isn't very good at all, it's the fact that you're putting your time investment up against someone else's that makes it fun. As mentioned in the endgame balance thread, I really don't want to see that change. Some improvements would be nice, but I'd really hate to see it become as friendly as you'd like. There are other games that have fun PvP for the sake of fun PvP, there aren't other games that have PvP for the sake of having the other guy lose his time/you not lose yours, not outside of gambling anyways.
Now, would I be incredibly opposed to the addition of that sort of PvP feature? No. Not any more than I dislike SC, NL, or open, anyways... it takes away from my player pool, but D3's player pool should be pretty huge at release anyways, so whatever.
I would, however, be incredibly opposed to blizzard trying to turn D3's PvP into a borderline esport such as GW or WoW, because that just generates pointless whining from the community "BUFF ME! NERF THEM!" etc, and the only way a free pvp character feature would be any fun for anyone would be if they did start to focus on the balance aspects significantly more.
By my mentality, you mean wanting to be able to pvp without grinding excessively in pvm? Care to clarify that?
GW'd initial emphasis on skill>time, the foundation for any game that aspires to provide serious competition, is what attracted me to it and playing it til Nightfall. Still, much as I used to love GW pvp, I don't consider it comparable to D2 pvp, completely different player skillset being tested. And the item system is, perhaps by necessity, frankly boring in comparison.
DII PvP is a place to show off and call the guy with all the gear names alongside the rest of us hiding in town. It's a place to go after hard days work of Baal running. Not an arena that makes you scream and shout. It's all about getting the loot, not having it handed over. Frankly I'm right alongside the guy you responded to.
DII PvP is a place to show off and call the guy with all the gear names alongside the rest of us hiding in town.
I don't want to remove that, just add an arena suited for people who want to actually match their skills against like-minded players. And if choosing to pvp exclusively against people with **** equipment instead of similar equipment, when that's actually an option, made you look like you an ebay kiddy? I wouldn't want to remove that either.
Honestly, the gear requirements aren't particularly high for LLD. I know of a few people (Barry certainly comes to mind) who have made a killing - no pun intended - hunting during the ladder runs. Find a high damage weapon, carve a few ears, rinse and repeat.
Except in classic lld, where you can be functional on a budget even to the point of competing with people with fairly expensive gear, lld is even more wealth dependent than hld, especially vlld where player skill takes back seat to build matchup and wealth. Naturally someone with a cheap, sensible setup (death's, angelics, twitch, pruby hat, random spare charms, 15 maxers... you know the drill) can slap around pvmers, but if they want to actually duel, not pk unprepared and unequipped chars (50 levels higher or otherwise... taking out a sorceress holding a maul is not something I would be proud of. though i admit it is rather satisfying.), in lod the difference between a fully jeweled and charmed lld and one made on a couple of ums or ists is astronomical.
Pretty much your entire post is about pking rather than duelling, which are completely different topics entirely for me. Pking would be unaffected by adding a pvp arena.
This could theoretically be solved by having people create and design their own PvP characters with no time investment, but what's the point of PvP then? You make a Barbarian using your ideal gear (Str/AR/ED/Leech/IAS etc.) and you face another Barb with the same gear and the two of you whirl at each other until one dies - then you take 10 minutes rebuild and have a rematch. Yawn.
aka bvb in classic, imo utterly retarded due to being exclusively a test of luck and equipment (unless you want to play a lancer vs a bh barb and exploit range at least, but that's generally going to be pretty suicidal). Nevertheless one of the most popular forms of classic pvp... for me it's all about the svs in classic.
I would, however, be incredibly opposed to blizzard trying to turn D3's PvP into a borderline esport such as GW or WoW, because that just generates pointless whining from the community "BUFF ME! NERF THEM!" etc, and the only way a free pvp character feature would be any fun for anyone would be if they did start to focus on the balance aspects significantly more.
Pretty much. Blizz certainly should not be trying to balance classes so they're all equally viable against each other, attempting to move build matchup RPS etc. It's basically impossible and loads of people would be antagonised trying. As people do in D2 however people could always match middle tier builds vs other middle tier builds, or really show off by being successful with middle tier vs higher tier builds - at least part of the D2 community is quite capable of regulating itself as necessary to increase their enjoyment. If Blizz did want to highlight pvp in some manner in D3, where everyone is a click away from finding out who the #1 bvb really is, or watch pvp ladder matches/tournaments, I don't see that as harmful, but only suited to team pk and same build matchups.
D2's PvP really isn't very good at all, it's the fact that you're putting your time investment up against someone else's that makes it fun.
I personally find the pvp - in terms of gameplay - in D2 to be really rich and unique. Naturally wagering many hours on the outcome of a match adds a lot to the adrenaline factor, but I and I imagine most players who would consider themselves pvpers do not require high stakes to be able to get a lot out of duelling.
DeathByCactus
01-07-2008, 03:21
Wondering on opinions of this - in D3 should you be able to create max level (or set level, for lld/mld) characters with accompanying character specific or more generally pvp-only gear, to be allowed access exclusively to pvp-only (no chests or enemies, presumably altered npcs) games.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who detests the entry barrier for pvp currently present in D2, demanding excessive pvm grind to be competitive, or the advantage given the richer players (particularly with pp items). On the one hand builds in pvp-only areas would be even more cookie-cutter, right down to the rare rings if given total customisation. On the other hand, there would be no excuse for ducking call outs and more people pvping.
There's no reason why pvp-only games and pvp in in pvm games couldn't co-exist, I actually don't support the idea of a 'no hostile' toggle on game creation.
Thoughts?
:coffee:
What a great way to water down an action RPG where one of the biggest purposes is to level up to be badass, and collect incredible gear to be more badass, then use that badassness on other NPC's and people.
I believe the game you are thinking of is called CounterStrike, where everyone has body armor, a high powered rifle, grenades, and are on an equal playing field to start with.
You know...people make servers on d2 that are exactly what you are talking about....
For a short time i was part a private server called D2Pk, I'm sure there at least a few people that know of it. Many of the best duelers on east played it, and it was kinda cool, it's actually probably still running, i'm not sure. Anyway, monsters on this server would drop nothing but 45 life skiller gcs, high runes, useful uniques such as CoAs, Shakos, arachs etc., torches, annis, awsome scs, and perhaps the coolest feature of d2pk was colored socketed items like 3os mage plates and all that. This meant making red, or white, or black, or whatever color runewords. You also leveled to 99 rediculously fast by the way. It was kind of badass.
However, within the time i played on that server, it never felt that rewarding when i dueled people. It just wasn't nearly as fun as having to use (slightly) imperfect gear setups against other people's. And constantly needing to upgrade something when you could, along with deciding whether or not i want to rip one of my characters apart just to get another one closer to perfection. It seemed like it would be endless, effortless fun when i heard about it but it just wasn't that fun for very long. I'm sure others who have played would agree with me.
So believe me, there are servers like this on d2, they're just usually very private. But it's not nearly as rewarding as building a PvP character the legitamate way. It sounds great in theory but you'd be dissapointed if it were actually implemented.
Hack'n'Slash RPG is about building the strongest character you can. PvP should reflect that, not be separate from that. Your ability to win duels relies as much on your skill build and gear choices as it does on actual dueling ability. Having free cherry-pick-your-everything PvP would remove much of that skill. And yes, getting good gear is a skill. Statistically, even in D2, you will get good drops that trade well. If Diablo 3 improves many aspects of loot finding, it should be even easier in that game to make a character you want.
You know...people make servers on d2 that are exactly what you are talking about....
For a short time i was part a private server called D2Pk, I'm sure there at least a few people that know of it. Many of the best duelers on east played it, and it was kinda cool, it's actually probably still running, i'm not sure. Anyway, monsters on this server would drop nothing but 45 life skiller gcs, high runes, useful uniques such as CoAs, Shakos, arachs etc., torches, annis, awsome scs, and perhaps the coolest feature of d2pk was colored socketed items like 3os mage plates and all that. This meant making red, or white, or black, or whatever color runewords. You also leveled to 99 rediculously fast by the way. It was kind of badass.
However, within the time i played on that server, it never felt that rewarding when i dueled people. It just wasn't nearly as fun as having to use (slightly) imperfect gear setups against other people's. And constantly needing to upgrade something when you could, along with deciding whether or not i want to rip one of my characters apart just to get another one closer to perfection. It seemed like it would be endless, effortless fun when i heard about it but it just wasn't that fun for very long. I'm sure others who have played would agree with me.
So believe me, there are servers like this on d2, they're just usually very private. But it's not nearly as rewarding as building a PvP character the legitamate way. It sounds great in theory but you'd be dissapointed if it were actually implemented.
Yeah I know about d2pk though personally I've never taken advantage of it. Perhaps you're right, at least for casual pvp, for those of us who can put together an adequately high end setup some charm is lost. But what about the multitude of Diablo players who never even reach the level of wealth of being able to afford a staple enigma (on a new EuSCL that's far from trivial, in the region of 9 ists)? These people are pretty much barred from properly experiencing any worthwhile pvp altogether.
Hack'n'Slash RPG is about building the strongest character you can. PvP should reflect that, not be separate from that. Your ability to win duels relies as much on your skill build and gear choices as it does on actual dueling ability. Having free cherry-pick-your-everything PvP would remove much of that skill.
I don't see why it would effect it, at all. In fact I believe the opposite is true; you're still picking your equip, but instead of picking merely from what you can find and trade for, you are picking from everything that can legitly spawn, giving you the ultimate control over minutae of gear selection. Either way, reverse-engineering builds is trivial so the skill of build creation shouldn't be considered a major factor - most people will just copy them.
And yes, getting good gear is a skill. Statistically, even in D2, you will get good drops that trade well. If Diablo 3 improves many aspects of loot finding, it should be even easier in that game to make a character you want.
While these are valid player skills, they are certainly not PvP player skills, and as such should not be tested in a PvP environment.
HappyAssassin
10-07-2008, 05:36
You're right high level PvP is for the wealthy elite (though players can do reasonably well with mediocre gear). It should stay that way. If you want a great character, you should need to put in the effort to get one. This doesn't necessarily mean endless Baal runs, you can be a skilled trader and become wealthy. The simple reality is that if you give people access to ALL the gear, they will find a few particular setups setups that achieve the best results and those will become standard. D2pk is great for a pure "test of skill," but the characters people make there feel soulless and identical.
As an example, I took the assassin class in D2 apart from the ground up to find the best possible PvP setup. Was it more difficult because I had to find gear as I went along? Yes, it was, it would have been very easy to test setups if I could conjure up gear at will. I even did that a little, on B.net open. It was much more rewarding having to work for it though. My setup was eventually used as a cookie-cutter template for a lot of duelers, but their gear was all different. Nobody ever had exactly my assassin, and that was also rewarding.
If anything, I think that in a dupe-free world where there is more emphasis on rares and/or fewer/no runewords (which were all the same), we will see more varied setups and more interesting duels. Making all the gear available would actually reduce the diversity of cool PvP builds, since people would have have to make due with what they've got. Hammerdins on classic were often better desyncers than those on expansion, because they had to be. Gear limitations encourage originality and skill.
don't see why it would effect it, at all. In fact I believe the opposite is true; you're still picking your equip, but instead of picking merely from what you can find and trade for, you are picking from everything that can legitly spawn, giving you the ultimate control over minutae of gear selection.
And that entirely defeats the point of the genre. Hack'n'Slash was never about skill in PvP. If everyone can just pick up and start PvPing off the bat with any equip and build they desire, this game's PvP will die very fast unless there is an entirely separate game and tier system for getting better items for doing well in PvP. Most players in Diablo 2 used PvP as a way to show off their character's awesome power, not show off their 1337 skillz (despite what they like to say). The tournament and the PvP between actual players who know their stuff is very rare.
This game's combat system isn't nearly complex enough to have long lasting and popular PvP based purely on the player's combat skills. Now, I am speculating on that complexity part, but D3 is probably going to end up this way.
Removing the PvM requirement for PvP is basically asking to reinvent Diablo 3 the game into Diablo 3: Arena. I can see why you find that appealing, but Diablo was never primarily a PvP game. It's PvM. Blizzard, in all probabilty, will not waste resources trying to develop 2 games in one. They will make Diablo 3, and then they will figure out how to add PvP that fits with the game's already existing mechanics. Why try to develop and balance a completely new system when you can just adapt the existing one?
Wow...I entered the thread agreeing with the OP, but after reading some extremely good arguments I realized I may mistaken.
However, I have some points to add too. konfeta, you state that Diablo 2 is a PvM game. Looking at the amount of effort put into the game (as well as a sort of neglect towards pvp), I'd have to agree with you. But consider this: I'm sure when we all started we played Diablo 2 for PvM, skipping over PvP guides and looking for some fun PvM builds. But as you know, the game itself is limited, and pretty soon we all get sick of pvm and enter the realm of pvp.
Diablo's pvm doesn't have enough replayability, so many turn to pvp after getting bored of the killing the same monsters over and over again. This is the reason that I stopped playing D2, and I'm currently on the search for a good, "dedicated" pvp Diablo-type game. (If someone could recommend me a few titles that would be very nice :grin:)
If the core part of the game is broken, then it needs to be fixed before appeasing the, though hardcore, but minority, PvP crowd. Plus, I think Blizzard is rich enough now to make better Expansion Packs and maybe add more content to the game as it gets patches.
Beyond that, they are not neglecting the idea of PvP. They are likely to implement a PvP system in tandem with what is core to the game, PvM. I think we can fully expect an arena system, a PvP ranking ladder, and so on. In fact, I would be surprised if certain elements from WoW PvP system are introduced - such as items you gain from PvP. However, what I do not expect to see is complete separation of the two modes of play.
I can't say that I would be surprised, however, if they decided to make a pair of expansion packs - one to progress PvM and another to progress PvP. Diablo 3: Arena!
BTW, you are looking for Guild Wars. It's the closest to PvP centered Hack'N'Slash you will find. Most Diablo clone games have crappy PvP systems, if they have them at all.
Phyrexial
10-07-2008, 20:54
I think the OP's main problem is due to dupes.
If you remove dupes from the game then the vast majority of bnet will have about the same access to gear and thus everyone should be on roughly the same playing field but maintaining individual uniqueness since everyone will still be building their own characters the old fashioned way. In D2 currently, you practically need an Enigma, CtA, and a number of other ridiculously expensive runewords that you simply cannot find in the game on your own. If dupes weren't around then you'd only really have to worry about the 4-5 guys on the entire realm that had the luck and perseverance to actually get a legit Enigma. And honestly, they deserve to rape it up if they actually managed to do that legit.
smartdot
11-07-2008, 03:57
You know...people make servers on d2 that are exactly what you are talking about....
For a short time i was part a private server called D2Pk, I'm sure there at least a few people that know of it. Many of the best duelers on east played it, and it was kinda cool, it's actually probably still running, i'm not sure. Anyway, monsters on this server would drop nothing but 45 life skiller gcs, high runes, useful uniques such as CoAs, Shakos, arachs etc., torches, annis, awsome scs, and perhaps the coolest feature of d2pk was colored socketed items like 3os mage plates and all that. This meant making red, or white, or black, or whatever color runewords. You also leveled to 99 rediculously fast by the way. It was kind of badass.
However, within the time i played on that server, it never felt that rewarding when i dueled people. It just wasn't nearly as fun as having to use (slightly) imperfect gear setups against other people's. And constantly needing to upgrade something when you could, along with deciding whether or not i want to rip one of my characters apart just to get another one closer to perfection. It seemed like it would be endless, effortless fun when i heard about it but it just wasn't that fun for very long. I'm sure others who have played would agree with me.
So believe me, there are servers like this on d2, they're just usually very private. But it's not nearly as rewarding as building a PvP character the legitamate way. It sounds great in theory but you'd be dissapointed if it were actually implemented.
im of the same opinion. I used to play a private WoW server that had exactly the same kinda setup youre describing. Instant 70, free skills and gear. to be frank, i had some of the best gear possible, and it was boring as ****. so what, i killed someone. whoop-ee. there was no sense of accomlishment because it didnt feel like i did any thing. it felt like it was just a bunch of gear with me pushing the buttons. i really did not care for it, and would not like to see something similar in D3.
Hey, anecdotal evidence of my point!
Weeeee!
I think the OP's main problem is due to dupes.
If you remove dupes from the game then the vast majority of bnet will have about the same access to gear and thus everyone should be on roughly the same playing field but maintaining individual uniqueness since everyone will still be building their own characters the old fashioned way. In D2 currently, you practically need an Enigma, CtA, and a number of other ridiculously expensive runewords that you simply cannot find in the game on your own. If dupes weren't around then you'd only really have to worry about the 4-5 guys on the entire realm that had the luck and perseverance to actually get a legit Enigma. And honestly, they deserve to rape it up if they actually managed to do that legit.
Or you can keep the game as it is right now with the dupes, it's possible to get the high-end Enigma stuff but it's still not a cakewalk.
Anathema
11-07-2008, 08:42
What's next, Capture the Flag? *cringe*
Capture the flag would be cool. Maybe I'm nuts :wink2:
To be honest, I disagree with the OP on this. In Diablo 2 there was a way to just create a custom character instantly. I'll not discuss that though. While certainly this sounds good on paper, it does not go well in real life. I'll present my points.
1. The biggest challenge in dueling was getting ahold of my gear- Grinding might be boring to you, but D2 is "an item finding game." Since running andariel or Trav or whatever is done these days is boring to you, switch it up. Make yourself some imbue/hellforge mules, and save up what you get for trade. You don't need enigma to beat 75% of these kids. It helps though.
2. As Smartdot said, such a system removes some/most of the feeling of accomplishment. You have to work for your gear, and work hard (usually). Theres no better feeling than finally finding that one piece of gear you need.. besides killing the enemy with it. And kill you will.
3. Not to bash the newbies- we were all newbies at one point. But whats to stop every tom dick and harry from having all the best stuff? those duels would be ridiculous.
Just a few thoughts.
If PvM wasn't a requirement for PvP you're doing a few things:
1) you're dividing the community more. Essentially saying this group of people doesn't need to level for their gear and doesn't need to participate in the economy.
2) you've got to decide how you're going to gear the auto high lvl characters. Are you just going to give them the best gear? If you do that you have to then be very careful balancing the items, which can lead to homogeneity (see GW system).
3) You've got to decide what level the free characters will be. Will they be 99? If so you're eliminating the point of the soft cap. If you want to have lower level you have to worry about lower level balance more, between all the classes which can skew things.
Ultimately, if people aren't required to PvE for PvP the game will ultimately suffer and the gains for the PvP community will be minimal.
I am opposed to any change that will only benefit the PvP community but will hurt the PvM game. They should not sacrifice PvM for limited PvP improvements when the game is largely centered and balanced around PvM.
Actually, now that I think about, Nox (Westwood's diablo clone; a surprisingly well done one) did what the OP is looking for right. It even had Capture the Flag, and was some of the funnest PvP I played.
But the game was even more hack'n'slash and less RPG than Diablo was, so that is the reason it worked. It was not about building the strongest character, it was about selecting the right combination of spells/gear for the job; as well as actual player combat skill. The action was also more fast paced and liquid, twitch skills mattered a lot in that game.
*Uber, if you want a Diablo like PvP game, try Nox. I think they still have servers and a small on-line playing community around. You don't even need a CD-Key to play on-line I think.
Nox is quite fun. I never did play online, nor did I play PvP, but the PvM is funny, and the humor is... westwoodish ;)
CONGRATULATIONS COMRADE GENERAL! OR SHOULD I SAY.... COSMONAUT GENERAL!
It's a shame Westwood got gobbled up. I would very much love to see a sequel to Nox.
HappyAssassin
11-07-2008, 20:11
You don't need enigma to beat 75% of these kids. It helps though.
But as things stand, you need enigma (not only enigma, but a lot of other nigh-impossible to find gear) to compete at a high level. The high level pvp builds that don't use enigma still use gear that's way above anything one might find in a few months of playing D2. I dare you to kill 75% of what you meet in Non-ladder pubs with a char geared by a few weeks of MFing and public trading. It will. not. happen. I agree with the rest of your points though.
Uncle_Mike
11-07-2008, 20:46
I think it would be best if crafts/rares and perhaps some newly introduced gear features (or old ones like jewels) made builds unique. What I don't like about the current system is that it seems to be based completely on high-end duped stuff effectively limiting chances of casual players to enter the PvP scene since perfect stuff is still rather expensive.
They should try to find balance between PvM being rewarding (more than currently) and yet challenging and serving as an incentive to play more.
Seriously, how many of you have found/rolled 45 skillers, 20/5 scs etc. NL PvP seems to be driven by old duped items while ladder (at least last one) seemed to have been flooded with shopped duped stuff.
Dedication to the game should pay off more in D3 in terms of a "decent" PvP kit while high-end top-tier items should still be difficult to obtain, but possible to obtain in a legit way.
Enigma should be a high-end item and yet, in the current system it's merely a basic pre-req for many builds being in fact one of the cheapest pieces of gear.
And that entirely defeats the point of the genre. Hack'n'Slash was never about skill in PvP. If everyone can just pick up and start PvPing off the bat with any equip and build they desire, this game's PvP will die very fast unless there is an entirely separate game and tier system for getting better items for doing well in PvP. Most players in Diablo 2 used PvP as a way to show off their character's awesome power, not show off their 1337 skillz (despite what they like to say). The tournament and the PvP between actual players who know their stuff is very rare.
This game's combat system isn't nearly complex enough to have long lasting and popular PvP based purely on the player's combat skills. Now, I am speculating on that complexity part, but D3 is probably going to end up this way.
Removing the PvM requirement for PvP is basically asking to reinvent Diablo 3 the game into Diablo 3: Arena. I can see why you find that appealing, but Diablo was never primarily a PvP game. It's PvM. Blizzard, in all probabilty, will not waste resources trying to develop 2 games in one. They will make Diablo 3, and then they will figure out how to add PvP that fits with the game's already existing mechanics. Why try to develop and balance a completely new system when you can just adapt the existing one?
PvP is a big part of D2 for a lot of people, whether that was initially intended by Blizzard or not. With some really quite basic pvp facilitation features, that appeal could be extended to a lot more people; I'm sure Blizzard wants as many people getting as much out of their game as possible, whether that fits into people's preconceived conception of the genre or not. I'm slightly surprised you say "The tournament and the PvP between actual players who know their stuff is very rare" as if this was a reason not to bother with taking pvp seriously in D3, as opposed to a result of pvp being so implemented so half-heartedly into D2 and having such a extreme barrier to entrance.
BTW, you are looking for Guild Wars. It's the closest to PvP centered Hack'N'Slash you will find. Most Diablo clone games have crappy PvP systems, if they have them at all.
D2's pvp gameplay is about as similar to GW as it is to CounterStrike. GW's at its peak was better for me (and completely different... neither makes the other redundant), but luckily I'm not forced to commit to a single game if I want to pvp. Wait...
I think the OP's main problem is due to dupes.
If you remove dupes from the game then the vast majority of bnet will have about the same access to gear and thus everyone should be on roughly the same playing field but maintaining individual uniqueness since everyone will still be building their own characters the old fashioned way. In D2 currently, you practically need an Enigma, CtA, and a number of other ridiculously expensive runewords that you simply cannot find in the game on your own. If dupes weren't around then you'd only really have to worry about the 4-5 guys on the entire realm that had the luck and perseverance to actually get a legit Enigma. And honestly, they deserve to rape it up if they actually managed to do that legit.
On the contrary. You could more reasonably say my main problem is how overpowered many items are (enigma, grief...) which creates such a massive gap between rich players and casual players, a gap almost no amount of skill can fill. Letting someone rape other players because they spent a gazillion hours farming mephisto or bought half of diiiitemz.com is in direct contradiction to my principles for competitive gaming. At least duping of a minority of items levels the playing field
1) you're dividing the community more. Essentially saying this group of people doesn't need to level for their gear and doesn't need to participate in the economy.
The people who buy D3 with no intention of doing any pvm whatsoever, I imagine, absolutely miniscule. Nevertheless I think the opposite is equally true; no only does people's ability to make pvp exclusive characters detract from their pvm play but in fact, because these pvxers don't have as much incentive to grind the requisite wealth in solo, they will be more integrated with the non-pvp community.
2) you've got to decide how you're going to gear the auto high lvl characters. Are you just going to give them the best gear? If you do that you have to then be very careful balancing the items, which can lead to homogeneity (see GW system).
Yeah, the best gear. Hopefully most matchups are deep enough that there are rarely entirely mathematically demonstrable bests, and playstyle preferences play some part. But I'd expect most builds, given the same fcr bp targets etc, ending up very similarly equipped.
So what's new? I really hope in D3 items with exclusive domain over powerful properties like 'fanaticism while equipped' and '+1 teleport' don't exist so picking your optimum gear isn't as completely trivial as it currently is in D2.
3) You've got to decide what level the free characters will be. Will they be 99? If so you're eliminating the point of the soft cap. If you want to have lower level you have to worry about lower level balance more, between all the classes which can skew things.
I don't want Blizzard to worry about pvp balance any more than they have in D2. If someone wants to make a level 85 so when they defeat the level 99s it's more impressive, sure. If they want to play a lower tier build to defeat the higher tier builds, that's great. The lack of material rewards for pvp encourages a lot of people to run stuff other than optimal fotms setups and I hope that remains the case in D3. Blizzard doesn't need to consider too heavily balance for the pvp community, many of us can restrict ourselves as necessary to get more out of the game.
Ultimately, if people aren't required to PvE for PvP the game will ultimately suffer and the gains for the PvP community will be minimal.
I am opposed to any change that will only benefit the PvP community but will hurt the PvM game. They should not sacrifice PvM for limited PvP improvements when the game is largely centered and balanced around PvM.
It sounds like your concluding argument against is essentially 'any dev time spent on pvp could have been spent on pvm', unless you have in mind some other way the pvm game is 'hurt'?
edit:If the core part of the game is broken, then it needs to be fixed before appeasing the, though hardcore, but minority, PvP crowd.
Being able to get the very best gear via a normal playthrough of the game would fix this... that, on the other hand, really would make pvm suffer.
The people who buy D3 with no intention of doing any pvm whatsoever, I imagine, absolutely miniscule. Nevertheless I think the opposite is equally true; no only does people's ability to make pvp exclusive characters detract from their pvm play but in fact, because these pvxers don't have as much incentive to grind the requisite wealth in solo, they will be more integrated with the non-pvp community.
That's not necessarily true. See, some people play through the game in PvM and are basically done with it, they MF enough to get their PvP gear setup and they're essentially done with PvM (for a while). This isn't super rare (and there are tons of people who play with no intention of ever doing any high level PvP, I know in hardcore, the PvP community is a minority, for example, with the exception being LLD groups)
Now what that means though, is that when the PvP player who has finished building his character wants to build a new character, he basically has to trade off his old gear for new pvp gear, level a new character and he's got a new character. What that means is that his items are always in the economy, and he still will periodically be playing (to give the game life).
If you give him the ability to instantly make a fully geared / leveled character, they would essentially never have to worry about trading again, which would take a lot of life out of the economy, because on a large scale a lot of people would be this way.
Yeah, the best gear. Hopefully most matchups are deep enough that there are rarely entirely mathematically demonstrable bests, and playstyle preferences play some part. But I'd expect most builds, given the same fcr bp targets etc, ending up very similarly equipped.
So what's new? I really hope in D3 items with exclusive domain over powerful properties like 'fanaticism while equipped' and '+1 teleport' don't exist so picking your optimum gear isn't as completely trivial as it currently is in D2.
Ultimately this type of system would demand much much more attention to pvp balance than pve balance. Or else what would the situation run into, every class basically using the exact same gear set. However discouraging that encourages homogeneity.
Further, having all the best gear for your pvp characters at the snap of a finger will extremely devalue finding it on your own. I'm not sure if you are just refusing to see this or think that because the community will be separated it wont affect it. But that would undermine your first point that the separation wouldn't be an effect.
I don't want Blizzard to worry about pvp balance any more than they have in D2. If someone wants to make a level 85 so when they defeat the level 99s it's more impressive, sure. If they want to play a lower tier build to defeat the higher tier builds, that's great. The lack of material rewards for pvp encourages a lot of people to run stuff other than optimal fotms setups and I hope that remains the case in D3. Blizzard doesn't need to consider too heavily balance for the pvp community, many of us can restrict ourselves as necessary to get more out of the game.
But if you're putting such effort into the system without balancing it, what's the point?
It sounds like your concluding argument against is essentially 'any dev time spent on pvp could have been spent on pvm', unless you have in mind some other way the pvm game is 'hurt'?
edit:
Being able to get the very best gear via a normal playthrough of the game would fix this... that, on the other hand, really would make pvm suffer.
I've explained why I am sure the PvM game will be hurt. It simply devalues the PvM experience if you can just have the best items from the getgo, it implies more balancing consideration to PvP than PvM, it segregates the community and removes people from the item poll and economy.
Those are all negative effects to the PvM game.
PvP is a big part of D2 for a lot of people, whether that was initially intended by Blizzard or not. With some really quite basic pvp facilitation features, that appeal could be extended to a lot more people; I'm sure Blizzard wants as many people getting as much out of their game as possible, whether that fits into people's preconceived conception of the genre or not. I'm slightly surprised you say "The tournament and the PvP between actual players who know their stuff is very rare" as if this was a reason not to bother with taking pvp seriously in D3, as opposed to a result of pvp being so implemented so half-heartedly into D2 and having such a extreme barrier to entrance.
I never said that PvP shouldn't be taken seriously by Blizzard. I said that shouldn't take precedence over PvM or go over it at all. They are taking it seriously. Arenas, etc. will be part of this game.
D2's pvp gameplay is about as similar to GW as it is to CounterStrike. GW's at its peak was better for me (and completely different... neither makes the other redundant), but luckily I'm not forced to commit to a single game if I want to pvp. Wait...
And that is restatement to the lacking of PvP hack'n'slash out there. When game from a brother genre is the closest you can get to Diablo. Unless you count Nox, of course.
Being able to get the very best gear via a normal playthrough of the game would fix this... that, on the other hand, really would make pvm suffer.
Here is the big problem. And this game is PvM, first and foremost. PvP doesn't get broken with the current itemization system. PvM gets broken if you force itemization system that some PvPers want. The only way to allow PvP get full-and-at-will customization of their characters is to either break PvM or separate it from PvM.
Blizzard will do neither. Yes, I am speculating, but I have a hunch that I am 150% correct on this. They are making an item hunting game. Chances are, they will build PvP on the core aspect of Diablo 3, not separate from that core aspect.
And honestly, I had as much fun building the character for PvP as I did using it, if not more. Having the ability to cheat my PvP character in will get boring very fast. In an item hunting and a character building game, getting any items you want and any character/build you want is essentially cheating. Nothing kills the joy in such a game faster than cheating.
Homogenity is the direct result of poor balance. Imagine a street fighter game with just 3 tournament viable characters... sucks, right? Rather than rebalancing the characters, capcom decides to make these 3 characters locked until you've defeated a cpu cammy 3000 times...
Creating major arbitrary hurdles (even worse, they're dependent on other forms of gameplay - pvpers cannot gain equipment by pvping.) to stop players being able to use the builds and gear they want to... I'm not sure I can even call this a band aid solution. If PvP homogenity is the direct result of letting people pvp with what they actually want to then so be it. It's not like the current situation is any different.
The fact is, a large part of communities are capable of restricting themselves as appropriate where it leads to deeper gameplay. Akuma overpowered? So he gets banned from tournaments. Where no rewards and major recognition are involved, players are even more capable of imposing limitations. Potting is very widely disregarded in duelling, for example, because players recognise farming full rejs is an uninteresting barrier to pvp. Perhaps if you could still fill a belt with rejs at a vendor, they wouldn't be exclusively the domain of HC. Teleport > SS? Find some melee duels. Smite/ww overpowered in the melee duels? They're popularly excluded.
Of course, when there's a tangible reward, the gloves come off and it's PTW time. D2 lacks this but even if there were tournaments or similar added to D3 there would be a wealth of extra-tournament play with suboptimum builds.
With many people pvping with pvp-only chars, there would certainly be a decreased demand for many of the more pvp-orientated high end items. I actually think that's a good thing... altering the supply:demand in favour of builds that perform more weakly in pvm (e.g. non trapsin sins) gives an incentive to play less cookie-cutter builds... decreasing pvm homogenity. Maybe you'd see a couple more death's web-using wolves instead of death's fathom-using blizz sorcs.
I doubt a seperate pvp-only mode would massively impact pvm gameplay, but if it was popular enough to do so? That would representative be the choice of the playerbase at large, and not Blizzard's, and would as such demonstrate its addition was the 'right' thing to do.
I didn't make this thread because I intend or expect Blizzard to be persuaded (or even notice) it. It's more of a hypothetical and perhaps ideological discussion I was interested in... I won't be boycotting Blizzard games on the basis they haven't 'improved' the pvp system from D2.
johnchristian
17-07-2008, 07:58
Spending time to go out and find good items makes building your pvp character more rewarding. If you did start out with your choice of good gear, or could trade stuff for it right off the bat would really detract from the experience. People play and build their characters to be able to show how much work they have done and the time they have spent doing it. It really is more rewarding to show off something you spent time and hard work on, rather than something you just threw together in a matter of days. Thats what makes the pvm factor so important. It provides item finding and time to spend making your pvp character. Without a good pvm in D3, you probably wouldn't have a great pvp.
HeroQuest
17-07-2008, 17:25
I can't understand it though; more people pvping means more opposition at all levels of play, and who wants to be required to grind hours of unskilled, repetitive play just to be able to compete with an unskilled kid with top gear fresh off ebay.
Thats the trouble with the majority of D2 players i see playing the game now. They want everything and they want it now. No hard work to get there, no time used to get there, just given to them here and now.
This is why D2 shops came about, for people like you who dont wish to spend time playing the game. Spend $50 on ebay and have yourself a nice set of lvl 90+chars, tooled up to the max.
I really hope your way of thinking isnt implimented into D3. Theres a saying, "if its not broke, dont fix it"
Uncle_Mike
17-07-2008, 17:50
This is why D2 shops came about, for people like you who dont wish to spend time playing the game.
Please don't jump to conclusions and keep it on topic rather than personal :yes:
Characters in Diablo games always required plenty of work before being PvP ready and well geared, somehow I doubt that they would change that.
HeroQuest
17-07-2008, 20:20
I was referring to his statement of not wanting to play the game and endlessly hack at monsters, it wasnt meant as a personal attack.
And i do hope characters require more work, and offer an element of uniqueness and individuality to chars, to encourage people to work through the game. I guess they tried that in D2 with the "personalise" reward, but lets be honest, the quirkiness of that lasted about as long as a bucking bronco ride.
Thats the trouble with the majority of D2 players i see playing the game now. They want everything and they want it now. No hard work to get there, no time used to get there, just given to them here and now.
This is why D2 shops came about, for people like you who dont wish to spend time playing the game. Spend $50 on ebay and have yourself a nice set of lvl 90+chars, tooled up to the max.
I really hope your way of thinking isnt implimented into D3. Theres a saying, "if its not broke, dont fix it"
The system is broken... D2's pvp is not taken seriously by anyone except a small number of extremely dedicated players and I dare say almost no-one in their right mind will buy D3 because they want to pvp exclusively, should no major change be implemented.
Blizz's current system does indeed provide an incentive for pvpers to ebay, hence supporting duping and botting, yes, not that that is among my reasons for adding a pvp-only realm. Surely this isn't supposed to be a counter argument?
I find the interchangable use of "work" and "play" ("No hard work to get there... for people like you who dont wish to spend time playing the game") telling. I want people to get good at pvp by 'playing', i.e. improving their player skills primarily by duelling other players and finetuning builds based on their experiences; you want them to become good at pvp by 'working', i.e. being forced to play a seperate mode of play extensively in a repetitive fashion.
I'll repeat; pvming -> pvm advantages = good, pvming -> pvp advantages = bad.
fwiw as a matter of principle I refuse to pay for games using models of paying for in game advantages popular with browser-based mrpgs, and would never ebay items on a similar basis. Although even I can't deny that, in terms of hours spent for ingame material reward, ebuy+IRL work certainly beats in game grinding with money to spare (and that's coming from an undergrad no less, i.e. my jobs tend to pay between £5.75-£7.50ph)...
HeroQuest
21-07-2008, 14:10
The system is broken... D2's pvp is not taken seriously by anyone except a small number of extremely dedicated players and I dare say almost no-one in their right mind will buy D3 because they want to pvp exclusively, should no major change be implemented.
Blizz's current system does indeed provide an incentive for pvpers to ebay, hence supporting duping and botting, yes, not that that is among my reasons for adding a pvp-only realm. Surely this isn't supposed to be a counter argument?
I find the interchangable use of "work" and "play" ("No hard work to get there... for people like you who dont wish to spend time playing the game") telling. I want people to get good at pvp by 'playing', i.e. improving their player skills primarily by duelling other players and finetuning builds based on their experiences; you want them to become good at pvp by 'working', i.e. being forced to play a seperate mode of play extensively in a repetitive fashion.
I'll repeat; pvming -> pvm advantages = good, pvming -> pvp advantages = bad.
fwiw as a matter of principle I refuse to pay for games using models of paying for in game advantages popular with browser-based mrpgs, and would never ebay items on a similar basis. Although even I can't deny that, in terms of hours spent for ingame material reward, ebuy+IRL work certainly beats in game grinding with money to spare (and that's coming from an undergrad no less, i.e. my jobs tend to pay between £5.75-£7.50ph)...
By "working" i meant having to spend time to achieve something. Noone is ever "forced" to play a game. I just dont think its right to allow someone to create a char of any level, with any item. Mostly because, straight off the bat, we'd be able to see what every skill does, know all the items etc, and half the anticipation of the game would be nul and void in an instant.
Nor do i think it feasible to have PvP on a seperate realm, with seperate chars. Before all the OTT hacks and dupes, PvP used to be about testing the limits of your char. By refining your skills etc through PvM, and then pitting them against other like-minded folk in PvP. After several duels, you'd ask to see each other equipment, and part ways amicably.
PvP now is full of racist, ill-mannered kids as far as i can tell, and to be honest, i wouldnt like to encourage them by giving them endless high lvl chars to abuse others with.
Having said that, it would be nice to have these people on a seperate realm so as not to spoil things for the rest of us.
By "working" i meant having to spend time to achieve something. Noone is ever "forced" to play a game.
No-one is ever 'forced' to do anything. The word is entirely meaningless without context... though outside of petty internet arguing, it's generally ok to assume people are capable of reading between the lines. If someone 'has to eat', that translates to, at worst, 'if they don't eat they will die'.
Glad that's out the way.
Here's a FACT for you you should be aware of. In Diablo 2, you are FORCED to pvm IF you want to pvp. Obviously this is unless you ebuy, hack, acc share, etc... none of which Blizz support, incidentally. You are not forced to pvp to pvm of course, and I've never seen anyone suggest you should be.
I just dont think its right to allow someone to create a char of any level, with any item. Mostly because, straight off the bat, we'd be able to see what every skill does, know all the items etc, and half the anticipation of the game would be nul and void in an instant.
With D2 I had seen the stats, even including stats hidden ingame and drop locations, of the vast majority of rarer sets and uniques before ever seeing them in game, thanks to internet databases. Still I think being able to browse though a unique item database from the get go isn't good for the casual player... even if whether the db's ingame or online really doesn't make much difference either way. The alternatives of extensive unlocks or limiting the pvp realm to generating non-unique items are worse. As they couldn't actually use the skills on monsters, any casual players who are vulnerable to ruining their own game experience when using a hero editor are protected. Requiring completing normal isn't too onerous and prevents newbs becoming alienated by being instantly immersed in an excessive number of options. You talk as if you can't already see what all the skills do, vague descriptions aside, from the moment you create a character. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I'm not the only person whose knowledge of CoA's stats and rarity did not inhibit their exhiliration when they found one... in fact, quite the opposite.
Nor do i think it feasible to have PvP on a seperate realm, with seperate chars. Before all the OTT hacks and dupes, PvP used to be about testing the limits of your char. By refining your skills etc through PvM, and then pitting them against other like-minded folk in PvP. After several duels, you'd ask to see each other equipment, and part ways amicably.
PvP now is full of racist, ill-mannered kids as far as i can tell, and to be honest, i wouldnt like to encourage them by giving them endless high lvl chars to abuse others with.
Having said that, it would be nice to have these people on a seperate realm so as not to spoil things for the rest of us.
/ignores unrelated rant
HeroQuest
21-07-2008, 16:43
No-one is ever 'forced' to do anything. The word is entirely meaningless without context... though outside of petty internet arguing, it's generally ok to assume people are capable of reading between the lines. If someone 'has to eat', that translates to, at worst, 'if they don't eat they will die'.
What was it you were saying about unrelated rants?
Glad that's out the way.
Here's a FACT for you you should be aware of. In Diablo 2, you are FORCED to pvm IF you want to pvp. Obviously this is unless you ebuy, hack, acc share, etc... none of which Blizz support, incidentally. You are not forced to pvp to pvm of course, and I've never seen anyone suggest you should be.
I wouldnt be so sickeningly obnoxious if i were you, since it makes you look like your namesake when youre not correct. If you want to PvP without PvMing, use a char editor, and go on open b.net.
With D2 I had seen the stats, even including stats hidden ingame and drop locations, of the vast majority of rarer sets and uniques before ever seeing them in game, thanks to internet databases. Still I think being able to browse though a unique item database from the get go isn't good for the casual player... even if whether the db's ingame or online really doesn't make much difference either way. The alternatives of extensive unlocks or limiting the pvp realm to generating non-unique items are worse. As they couldn't actually use the skills on monsters, any casual players who are vulnerable to ruining their own game experience when using a hero editor are protected. Requiring completing normal isn't too onerous and prevents newbs becoming alienated by being instantly immersed in an excessive number of options. You talk as if you can't already see what all the skills do, vague descriptions aside, from the moment you create a character. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I'm not the only person whose knowledge of CoA's stats and rarity did not inhibit their exhiliration when they found one... in fact, quite the opposite.
/ignores unrelated rant
I fail to understand what point youre trying to put across. . .
Gigashadow
21-07-2008, 17:07
I'm mostly with the OP on here. PvP that depends on items found via PvM, and that is in itself dependent on PvM is bound to be disbalanced, and that makes it useless.
PvP is something any Diablo player should have access to no matter his level, because PvP should depend on skill, not items worn. It would be easier for Blizzard to balance PvP without so many items interfering, too. At the state that Diablo PvP is now, I'd rather go play Nox than spend days grinding through Normal, Nightmare, Hell, and Baal runs to get to level 99 and then farm/trade for Enigma and other rubbish.
HeroQuest
21-07-2008, 17:20
PvP should depend on skill, not items worn.
So by this reasoning, you'd be perfectly happy for every barbarian (just an example) to have the exact same items?
So, we have 2 barbs, with the same items, at the same levels, with the same skills, duelling each other. . .
Sorry, but if thats your idea of fun, youre welcome to it
Uncle_Mike
21-07-2008, 18:32
I've deleted a few posts here, it seems that both of you have decided to flame and insult each other, which is not welcome on these boards.
If you have any concerns PM me. If you find some post to be dumb or insulting, report it.
Gigashadow
21-07-2008, 21:05
So by this reasoning, you'd be perfectly happy for every barbarian (just an example) to have the exact same items?
So, we have 2 barbs, with the same items, at the same levels, with the same skills, duelling each other. . .
Sorry, but if thats your idea of fun, youre welcome to itI was more looking at the NWN like system: you get a number of level ups (100+ or whatever is the number in Diablo II), and you distribute those however you want. I don't see anything wrong with similar characters fighting each other - it depends on their complexity and the options that they have. If options are little, it's probably a bad idea, but a barbarian with better items should not fight a barbarian with worse items if they have exactly the same skills anyway. That's simply disbalanced.
When a game starts, either the characters can be naked and run around the field in search of special balanced weapons and items, either each character chooses what to wear from a menu of balanced items that do not benefit any build or any class. Both systems were used in various games, they work fine.
I can note that I am not happy with the DII PvP system and I consider it not all that great in most situations. For me to properly duel someone, it has to be some staged PvP game activated via a respecing mod with a friend on LAN, with builds and items we agreed on (since half of them are disbalanced against another build). All else is just stupid teleport battles, hardcore farming, and basically trying to win PvP games by anything but not skill. I guess your idea of fun is when PvP is only about what items you found and the best cookie cutter build of the year, and your playing skill doesn't matter. You are welcome to that opinion. Many Diablo II players love the PvP the way it is but many also don't.
That part may have something to do with the fact that Diablo is an item game, not a PvP Skillzor game. If I wanted an "entirely skill based duel", I wouldn't be playing Diablo for it in the first place.
Gigashadow
21-07-2008, 22:14
Well, if Diablo is not a PvP Skillzor game, it shouldn't have PvP at all. Because all that PvP is basically: "I have better items than you do so I win". Why even duel? What's the point? You can brag about items just as well in PvM.
Just because it's not a PvP Skillzor centered game, doesn't mean skill is automatically excluded from it. All it means is that building an effective character with the available resources at your disposal is just as much part of PvP as the skill itself. That part attracts a lot of people to Diablo PvP. For people like me, for example, having PvP system that cheats your character into existence would ruin it. If I wanted to prove I am better at clicking or tactics I would go play an FPS or RTS respectively. Hell, if I wanted a "Build your character for free and PvP with it," I would go play something like Neverwinter Nights.
Like I said many times, Diablo foremost is an item hunting game. If PvP isn't connected to it, it's not Diablo PvP.
Plus, if Blizzard actually bothers to balance this game, there won't be such a thing as an automatic best build.
HeroQuest
22-07-2008, 11:27
Well, if Diablo is not a PvP Skillzor game, it shouldn't have PvP at all. Because all that PvP is basically: "I have better items than you do so I win". Why even duel? What's the point? You can brag about items just as well in PvM.
I agree that PvP now revolves around Enigma. If you dont have Enigma, you dont have much of a chance.
I used to PvP back in .09 and loved it. I had a PvP barb, with different items set up for duelling different classes.
When i revisited Diablo at v1.11 and PvP'd it was full of people tele'ing around, and spamming tornado's and hammers.
Enigma is the bane of PvP.
However, i digress. In .09 you didnt have to have the most elite gear to win alot of duels. I admit there was a fair amount of char imbalances, but compared to todays PvP, it was fairly even. What mattered was how you used you char. Some barbs didnt know how to WW properly. Some ama's would have no faster r/w and couldnt shoot and run fast enough. Some sorcs would tele too close and die from a well timed WW. My barb lasted even after ITH swords/bows came about. Even though these items were infinately better than what i used, i still won the majority of duels. So items didnt used to be so much of an issue, its only recently that in order to survive, you need godly items. Of course, items will always play an important role, but only to a certain degree.
I hope whoever implimented Enigma runeword got sacked.
And to all the people who would rather PvP without needing to PvM. . . if this isnt implimented in D3, will you reluctantly PvM so you can PvP? I think the vast majority will.
Gigashadow
22-07-2008, 19:36
And to all the people who would rather PvP without needing to PvM. . . if this isnt implimented in D3, will you reluctantly PvM so you can PvP? I think the vast majority will.I never PvP'ed in Diablo II for that very reason - I had to farm for items, and I disrespect that process. I watched some DII PvP's on youtube and they looked very simple and dumb compared to PvP in the game my avatar is from. DII PvP revolves around 2-3 skills that people learn to use... I was pretty disinterested in DII PvP after all that and I hope DIII will make it at least a bit more involving.
With teleport, it became even worse - that's why I said no items... Nothing wrong with Enigma itself but PvP wise it shouldn't be there.
It's good that pvp demands such expensive gear, that keeps alot of players from finding out they lack skill... Sarcasm aside, this demand of taking a roleplaying game and wanting to get the most treasured items given freely is in my eyes nothing but whining to get what one can't legit.
If one wants a pvp game where all start on equal terms then play streetfighter. PvP in Diablo series is a sidekick, and for many a place where they get to use the gear they worked hard and focused on getting. I really can't respect someone showing up in green gear and exceptional uniques and complaining he can't compete. Sure you can, find someone your own level to fight.
In essence, whats the difference of demanding "PvP gear" to compete, and then demanding "PvE gear" (Like that guy with enigma has) to start out in hell? There is no difference.
Gigashadow
23-07-2008, 02:16
PvP demanding gear prevents all those PvP players out there finding out that they suck *** when it comes to skill because they are so hyper-dependent on their items.
I don't remember asking for items. All I was asking for is an FPS style arena. You can be any level, you join that arena, new rules apply. You leave it, you lose everything you got from the arena. I don't see anything wrong with this if a person just wants to PvP.
You just don't respect anyone for anyone who prefers an intelligent, skillful battle to continual item grinding until level 99 with a PvP build and dueling with tons of uber-wow items... There is nothing elite, good, or deserving respect in people who reached level 99. Most of them are asses, in fact, who look down at people who have better things to do.
For me to PvP anyone in Diablo II I had to go ask a friend so that he could let me play with his high-level necro. But teleporting around casting Bone Spirit over and over wasn't fun at all. It's absolutely not worth all the PvM effort you need to put in to get to it. I sometimes think DII PvP'ers don't play anything besides DII.
Also, nobody my level wants to fight. To find someone who'd want to duel who's your exact level is very hard. Half of them are scared. Others say you need to get to level 99 first... and then you have those who think PvP is only possible with Enigma. And I am not even talking about the fact that the "leave town-duel" format is improper.
You're just here and there, one post it's fair rules and battlegrounds, next it is no pvp at all because it is too easy and you cba.
What do you care if they pvp in games you don't go to?
Bottomline is that the problem is duping and players who abuse this exploit. They fix battlenet they fix pvp. So I hope Battlenet 2 wil be much more secure, one wouldn't see the unreachable gear on everyone and his dog.
Gigashadow
23-07-2008, 06:54
Well, I suppose DIII will be more serious in that aspect. And maybe DII PvP would be better if it allowed more players than just those that love to grind. You know, when only a small pool of people get to PvP it's not really going to have a chance to evolve anywhere all that much. PvP and PvM must be separate to be properly balanced and executed.
I disagree, this trend of demanding two separate games in one is an illness. Fighting others with what you got is the very charm of PvP. Guildwars and then WoW turned their PvP into stale boredom.
Again duping is the problem, not the possibility to declare hostility to another player. Just because it's not your way don't tell us that we should not be allowed to pvp.
Gigashadow
23-07-2008, 07:04
If PvP in a certain game is boring it's the fault of the PvP system. Fighting with what you have means playing a disbalanced game. Unless you are just "messing around" I don't see why would you do that? If you want a handicapped game there are usually options for that. Please tell me what's the difference between playing with items you were given and items you were found, except the fact that either you or the other player are going to be handicapped?
Last time I checked, there were actual PvP BUILDS. That means people are serious with this, and so it should be adapted into proper duel form.
And hostility on players generates PK, which is a whole other matter.
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.