The Worldstone, Diablo's Soulstone, and the permanent outpost of Hell

[mjharper]

This is all highly speculative. :wink:

Things we know:

Baal used his Soulstone to corrupt the Worldstone; his aim, according to Tyreal, was to turn the world into a permanent outpost of Hell.
Baal 'failed', although Tyreal had to destroy the corrupted Worldstone.


Things we don't know:

What happened to Diablo's Soulstone (thread I started here (http://forums.diabloii.net/showthread.php?p=6575569))

So how about this:
The Worldstone was like a kind of firewall, protecting the world from invasion from Hell. Diablo managed to slip through because he possessed a mortal already in the world. Corrupting the Worldstone would begin turning the world into an outpost of Hell, so the Worldstone had to be destroyed. Nobody knows quite what effect that will have, as the people of Harrogath tell us at the end. But the world itself is now vulnerable, although there seems to be little threat because, after all, we've just defeated the three Prime Evils. Not having a firewall is not a problem if there's no-one trying to hack your computer.

Except…

Except no-one really knows what happened to Diablo's Soulstone. Everyone assumed—like Marius—that it too had been destroyed, but instead it lay hidden, festering, corrupting the earth itself. We know that the Soulstones can corrupt physical objects (the Worldstone) as well as sentient beings (the Wanderer). The monsters spreading out over Sanctuary do not follow in the wake of a Wanderer; instead they emanate outwards from a centre of corruption (much like the Undead bases in WarCraft III), gradually encroaching on the untainted lands, which begin to fall to the sword and to the corrupting influence of the Soulstone. The Soulstone will become the very heart of Diablo, moulded out of the earth itself, a molten chaos forced into demonic form (like the boss at the end of the gameplay video). The world will be turned into a permanent outpost of Hell…

Baal's actions thus acquire another dimension. If he succeeded in corrupting the Worldstone, the world would be conquered by Hell. But if he only succeeded in having the Worldstone destroyed, the world would still fall because his brother's Soulstone was left behind, turning an unprotected earth against itself. A win-win scenario.

Sure, it's all speculation, but it sounds good to me :wave:

[ThulRasha]

That is not quite how I see it. The worldstone was a device with multiple purposes. One was to keep the powers of the mortals in check. The other purpose was to hide the world from both heaven and hell.
By corrupting the worldstone, Sanctuary would be no longer hidden from hell. Tyreal had to destroy it to level the playing field, making it accessable to his peers as well as the denizens from hell.

The soulstones were just one way for the prime evils to enter Sanctuary. They could use the stones to posess a mortal. Now that Sanctuary is no longer hidden, they don't need the soulstones anymore. Instead they will use a different way to regain a corporeal form. We don't know yet what, but the cultists probably have found a way.

[Reanimator]

If Tyreal has (as has been suggested elsewhere) been corrupted by the soulstone, then could it mean that not only is Diablo able to corrupt the world but also access heaven for the same purpose? After all, that is part of the point of the soulstones: to allow the Prime Evils to enter the world by corrupting a host.

[mjharper]

Yeah, I know the idea depends on Diablo's Soulstone being left behind; and a particular interpretation of the Soulstones and their function; and, well, every other theory about the 'resurrection' of Diablo being wrong. But it's fun to speculate.

What this theory and the possession of Tyreal have going for them is the idea of Diablo's increasing power. In D1, he possessed a child; in D2 he possessed the hero who slew him. Possessing an Angel, or corrupting the earth itself, should lead to a Diablo of terrifying proportions.

Which is just what we need ;-)

[Reanimator]

Possessing an Angel, or corrupting the earth itself, should lead to a Diablo of terrifying proportions.


Like a massive, three-headed, version made of molten lava? ;)

[Thirty-Thirty]

The corruption of Tyrael is consistent with the story of the games, and Blizzard could choose an appropriate point and mechanism for that corruption to take place. On the other hand, it's still plausible that Tyrael has not been corrupted, but, as you say, wanted to destroy the Worldstone to keep the playing field even. It's looking a bit further ahead, but the triple Prime-Evil beastie might be the villain of D3, and Tyrael the villain of the inevitable expansion pack.

There are two important things that I try to keep within my speculations about the various stones.

Firstly, the destruction of the Worldstone might very well remove the need for soulstones at all. They were created to contain the spirits of the Prime Evils in the mortal realm, but wouldn't be necessary if the boundary no longer exists. The soulstone might still be around, but it might not contain Diablo's spirit any more. By the same token, any reduction in Tyrael's power cause by his tenuous links to Sanctuary (he refers to his weakening when you find him in Tal Rasha's tomb - end of D2, Act II) is probably gone too. I can see all out war between Heaven and Hell breaking out across Sanctuary.

If the soulstones are now moot, I think there are huge doors open to Blizzard, and our speculation :p . If the brothers are back to being more spiritlike now, it could be made consistent with the three-fold theory proposed for the three-mouthed beastie in the cinematic trailer. Diablo is, after all, strongest of the three brothers, so I'm happy with the Diablo-like physical appearance. And it'd make for a totallysuperawesome climactic fight (even if he does only drop Isenhart's Case).

Secondly, I'm a bit wary of Tyrael's motives, even if still aligned to the light. He may have stepped in to help humanity purely for the sake of keeping the Evils out of Sanctuary. After all, both the Heavens and Hells recognised that humans are the tool to win the war. So he may have chosen to destroy the soulstone to give the High Heavens a fighting chance, well aware that Sanctuary was basically stuffed either way. Again, this is in line with an all-out war scenario.

A whole lot of speculation on a lot of things. At the end of the day, just about every one of Blizzard's games has been a top-selling Editor's Choice galore superhit. I don't doubt for a second that D3 will be no different.

[Thirty-Thirty]

Double-posted. No need to read such a long one twice.

[Reanimator]

Yeah, a beast formed of all the 3 Prime Evils would be pretty awesome - and would make sense to me in many ways...

There is that really impressive shot in the cinematic trailer with what appears to be a huge rift in the earth and masses of soldiers, which would back up the "all out war". Plus, if Tyrael is working for his own interests it would make sense that he has decided to make a play for Sanctuary in the same way Diablo is trying to do so for the Hells.

I agree however, Blizzard are awesome at writing good stories so I'm sure whatever they come up with will rock!

[BlackenedRoseThorn]

oh god, that is all the land needs... first it gets stepped on by the three, then 20 years later, guess what? both sides come to war over the land, and who cares about who gets crushed in between...

[mjharper]

I have to say, I'm not convinced that the Soulstones are now moot. They've been a part of the story for as long as Diablo, Deckard Cain, and Tristram...

[Corkee]

The corruption of Tyrael is consistent with the story of the games, and Blizzard could choose an appropriate point and mechanism for that corruption to take place. On the other hand, it's still plausible that Tyrael has not been corrupted, but, as you say, wanted to destroy the Worldstone to keep the playing field even. It's looking a bit further ahead, but the triple Prime-Evil beastie might be the villain of D3, and Tyrael the villain of the inevitable expansion pack.

There are two important things that I try to keep within my speculations about the various stones.

Firstly, the destruction of the Worldstone might very well remove the need for soulstones at all. They were created to contain the spirits of the Prime Evils in the mortal realm, but wouldn't be necessary if the boundary no longer exists. The soulstone might still be around, but it might not contain Diablo's spirit any more. By the same token, any reduction in Tyrael's power cause by his tenuous links to Sanctuary (he refers to his weakening when you find him in Tal Rasha's tomb - end of D2, Act II) is probably gone too. I can see all out war between Heaven and Hell breaking out across Sanctuary.

If the soulstones are now moot, I think there are huge doors open to Blizzard, and our speculation :p . If the brothers are back to being more spiritlike now, it could be made consistent with the three-fold theory proposed for the three-mouthed beastie in the cinematic trailer. Diablo is, after all, strongest of the three brothers, so I'm happy with the Diablo-like physical appearance. And it'd make for a totallysuperawesome climactic fight (even if he does only drop Isenhart's Case).

Secondly, I'm a bit wary of Tyrael's motives, even if still aligned to the light. He may have stepped in to help humanity purely for the sake of keeping the Evils out of Sanctuary. After all, both the Heavens and Hells recognised that humans are the tool to win the war. So he may have chosen to destroy the soulstone to give the High Heavens a fighting chance, well aware that Sanctuary was basically stuffed either way. Again, this is in line with an all-out war scenario.

A whole lot of speculation on a lot of things. At the end of the day, just about every one of Blizzard's games has been a top-selling Editor's Choice galore superhit. I don't doubt for a second that D3 will be no different.

Again I have to side with Thirty-Thirty, I've speculated along these lines myself as a possible followup to chapter 5 end in D2. The soulstones was IMO simply vehicles to transport the essence of the primal evils to sanctuary and morphing the host bodies to their own image. The primal evils themself was barred from entering Sanctuary due to the worldstone. Without it you don't need soulstones since they can get here themself.

Regarding heaven and hell and their motives. Blizzard never anchored their games in one or the other camp morally or ethically. Orcs where just as capable to do good and evil as humans, and the space faring protoss wheren't exactly benign and enlightened in their actions either - just like the terrans having their own genocidal agenda of spreading the human influence into the universe and protecting it at all costs.

However, when that is said you would have to find some redeeming qualities within the legions of Hell - and that's a hard deal to sell. Most demonology lore is based on the fact that there is a bigger and meaner demon somewhere that outranks the other demons - from the lowest pond scimming ratlike being to the prime evils themselfs. The chance that a champion of hell would revolt against this hierarchy of domination seems rather unlikely. It's easier to see faults with the pristine white morals of heaven being corrupted on the side of compassion and penance for the range of human morals and ethics you would find in a place like Sanctuary(we're all sinners in the end).

One alternative is to paint a bleaker picture of it all. Like the one you can find in the Constantine comic books by Neil Gaiman and the Spawn comics by Todd McFarlane. Where humans are unwilling pawns of both camps, and in the end try to rise up against both to preserve our humanity against their inhuman black or white dogma.

[Swiffer]

Again I have to side with Thirty-Thirty, I've speculated along these lines myself as a possible followup to chapter 5 end in D2. The soulstones was IMO simply vehicles to transport the essence of the primal evils to sanctuary and morphing the host bodies to their own image. The primal evils themself was barred from entering Sanctuary due to the worldstone. Without it you don't need soulstones since they can get here themself.

Not exactly. While flicking through my Diablo 1 manual to see if it had any art of Azmodan and Belial (negative) i re-read "The Nature of the Soulstones" by Jered Cain. A passage(all emphasis is mine):

Tyreal bequested upon our order three of these Stones so we could contain the vile essences of the Three Prime Evils who had been let loose upon our world

The worldstone had to be created after the Prime Evils were captured. Azmodan and Belial overthrew the Prime Evils during the Sin war and banished them to the mortal realm, which would imply that at the time the soulstones were created and used against the Prime Evils, there was no barrier preventing hell invading. IIRC prior to this (i believe some of the texts in you find Diablo 1 discuss this) heaven and hell had agreed that they would not use humans in the war, and that their fighting should remain hidden from mortal eyes. The Prime Evils were bound, and somewhere in-between the worldstone came into existence. The Prime Evils fwiw, were capable of taking over mortal bodies before they were bound.

Another passage:

The Southstones effect only beings that are non-corporeal and thus have no power over living, breathing creatures. When invoked, the Soulstones bring into being a strong "spiritual" vacuum. Any non-physical entities caught within this vacuum are drawn into the burning recesses of the Soulstone and are forever trapped within. These spirits are released only when the Soulstone is deactivated or destroyed

This part may have been retconned for Diablo 2, but if this passage still holds true, then Tyreal knew that destroying the Soulstones would release the spirits of the prime evils back into the world. Following on from this, if the Worldstone was created to ensure the evils could not come back into the world, then its destruction, combined with the actual freeing of the brothers would mean Tyreal has been corrupt from the very moment that we met him, and has been actively working to open the gates of hell.

It certainly makes believing that Tyreal will fall much easier if you think that he has been working against us since the beginning.

[mjharper]

@Swiffer: That also fits in with the containment of Baal by Tal Rasha. The Soulstone was broken, and the only way to prevent the escape of Baal was to contain him within another vessel, the body of the sage. That's how I understood it, anyway.

But, if Tyreal has been working to free the Three from the Soulstones, there are still a couple of questions:

Why did Tyreal give the Horadrim the Soulstones in the first place? The Three were already free, so what did he hope to achieve by entrapping them? Or did he change his mind later?
And why didn't Deckard Cain say anything about the plan to destroy the Soulstones? After all, the passage you quote is supposedly Horadric Lore. (Okay, in the Journal Cain says he wishes he had spent more time reading—maybe he skipped that chapter.)

[Swiffer]

@Swiffer: That also fits in with the containment of Baal by Tal Rasha. The Soulstone was broken, and the only way to prevent the escape of Baal was to contain him within another vessel, the body of the sage. That's how I understood it, anyway.

The last few paragraphs of "The Nature of the Soulstones" actually talks about this. Basically Baals soulstone was broken before they could use it, so Tyreal and the Horadrim theorized that someone with a strong enough will, aided by a fragment of the Soulstone, could contain Baal. Tal Rasha volunteered, they captured him and bound him deep in the desert.

But, if Tyreal has been working to free the Three from the Soulstones, there are still a couple of questions:

Why did Tyreal give the Horadrim the Soulstones in the first place? The Three were already free, so what did he hope to achieve by entrapping them? Or did he change his mind later?
And why didn't Deckard Cain say anything about the plan to destroy the Soulstones? After all, the passage you quote is supposedly Horadric Lore. (Okay, in the Journal Cain says he wishes he had spent more time reading—maybe he skipped that chapter.)


Tyrael founded the Horadrim Order and charged them with protecting the world from the Prime Evils, so it is safe to say that at the time he was still firmly on the side of heaven. He saw what the Prime Evils were doing to the world (ie revealing themselves, tearing **** up) and acted to put an end to it (disobeying orders not to interfere).

The only sticky issue is the timeframe we are talking. The article i quoted from was written by Jered Cain, of whom Deckard Cain is a descendent. Perhaps The Sin War trilogy touches on this, so if it does, someone please correct me, but we do not know the span of time between the Prime Evils original capture and the start of the first Diablo game. A hundred years? 200? Is Deckard Cain the son or grandson (or even further down the line) of Jerad? Tal Rasha is described as an 'ancient' mage and hero of the Horadrim, which would imply that time frame is quite substantial.

If this is the case, there would easily be time enough for Diablo to corrupt Tyreal to his side.

[Thirty-Thirty]

I think Swiffer's on a good track. After all, Blizzard can still choose at what point Tyrael became corrupted. For all we know, it may have been somewhere after Diablo's spirit was released from it's soulstone or if Tyrael tried to pick it up or something (at the end of D2). It also may have happened after LoD: the destruction of the Worldstone may have created an opportunity for Diablo (or even the triple-evil-spirit) and Tyrael to meet at full power, with Diablo the victor.

As for the original purpose of the stones, I was under the impression that the Prime Evils - while free to roam without the stones - were more powerful when their essences were contained and placed into a human. This is notably true for the two stones that initially went into very powerful people: Sankekur and Tal Rasha. So while it appeared to the Horadrim (and Tyrael) that containing them therein would halt their influence, Izual and his collaborators knew that they'd only make the brothers more powerful. Once one was released and sought to free the others, the time-bomb they'd set would go off.

I always found the mechanism confusing though. I'm not sure at what point a host stopped being the host and became the relevant Prime Evil, for example. The character that visits Marius in the asylum is Tal Rasha, not Baal, because Marius has the stone. Tal Rasha has presumably been so corrupted that he wants the demon to possess his body.

More OT, this is probably the most sensible thread I've encountered on here (though there's a great deal of sense around generally). I've always been wary of previous suggestions of Tyrael's corruption, but the idea now sits with me much better.

[Swiffer]

As for the original purpose of the stones, I was under the impression that the Prime Evils - while free to roam without the stones - were more powerful when their essences were contained and placed into a human. This is notably true for the two stones that initially went into very powerful people: Sankekur and Tal Rasha. So while it appeared to the Horadrim (and Tyrael) that containing them therein would halt their influence, Izual and his collaborators knew that they'd only make the brothers more powerful. Once one was released and sought to free the others, the time-bomb they'd set would go off.

I think you are mostly right, though it is all tied into the corruption. No doubt the Prime Evils had a corporeal form while in the hells, and as such having their spirits banished to the mortal realm would leave them devoid of much of their power while they are in spirit form (hence why the Horadrim had to hunt down and kill whoever was the current host of the spirits).

However, even with the soulstones corrupted, their spirits are still in one way trapped, and while they can assume their forms and power using a host body, i think if their spirits were totally free from any form of prison they would be much more powerful, if only because they could jump freely from host to host as each one gets cut down.

I always found the mechanism confusing though. I'm not sure at what point a host stopped being the host and became the relevant Prime Evil, for example. The character that visits Marius in the asylum is Tal Rasha, not Baal, because Marius has the stone. Tal Rasha has presumably been so corrupted that he wants the demon to possess his body.

Tal Rasha is a good example since he volunteers to play host. The soulstones themselves (once corrupted) only allowed the Evils to influence and sway mortals to their cause or to do their bidding. To actually regain their forms and their strength, the soulstones had to be implanted in a host.

From the information we have, it seems that the host stops being a host once their will has been beaten by the prime evil. Diablo found King Leoric too hard to overthrow, so used Albrect instead. Mephisto seduced Sankekur into playing host, so he would have been a push over seeing as he voluntarily went through with it.

With Baals containment a mere shard, Tal Rasha was doomed to struggle against Baals will for eternity. When the shard was first put in, struggle begain, but Tal Rasha was in control, but mortals can presumably only struggle so long against a Prime Evil before they are eventually defeated.

The interesting contrast to this is the hero of Diablo 1. As can be read in the Diablo 2 manual, from the moment he was losing the battle. Despite being the hero, his mood darkened further and further until the night of the celebration his will was finally beaten and he declared (in Cains prescence) "The time has come to leave this place. My brothers await me in the east. Their chains will bind no longer".

As for Tal Rasha, i would guess that he was so totally dominated by Baal, so totally and utterly beaten, that even after the stone was removed, he either was Baal, at least in mind, or essentially became like Gollum whose only thought was to recover the stone.

[Rev Sysyphus]

This is the best discussion on the nature of the Worldstone & Soulstones I have found! Also I was always confused as to why Baal/Tal Rasha would bother tracking down Marius. But a beaten and broken Tal Rasha searching for his "precious" makes perfect sense.

It could also explain why Marius looks 20 years older. Baal, trapped in the soulstone because Marius didn't cram it into his head, corrupts Marius driving him mad and making his body weaken and age.

But my point of confusion here deals with the Sin War trilogy by Richard Knaak.
I don't want to spoil the books but the worldstone origin and purpose seems different there than what the game lore says.
Can someone list the differences?

[raveharu]

Diablo soulstone has been destroyed, as shown in the video in-game.

[Swiffer]

But my point of confusion here deals with the Sin War trilogy by Richard Knaak.
I don't want to spoil the books but the worldstone origin and purpose seems different there than what the game lore says.
Can someone list the differences?

Could be a retcon between D2 and when the books were written.

I havnt actually read the books though (they are on the way if Amazon would hurry the **** up =x) so i cannot really help there.

[ThulRasha]

I don't want to spoil the books but the worldstone origin and purpose seems different there than what the game lore says.
Can someone list the differences?

The game lore doesn't really say that much about what the purpose of the worldstone is. Actually, in the end cinematics it is said that it is unknown what the destruction of the stone means.
So that would be a very short list with differences. I don't know of a single purpose that the game lore gave.

[lionheart]

Yea they kinda dont give u much explanation in the game, maybe keeping themselves open to many possibilities of continuation in the future... Im afraid they are gonna mess with the two sides of it though ( book and game ) inventing new stuff and contradicting old ones...

[Swiffer]

Yea they kinda dont give u much explanation in the game, maybe keeping themselves open to many possibilities of continuation in the future... Im afraid they are gonna mess with the two sides of it though ( book and game ) inventing new stuff and contradicting old ones...

Well considering that storyboarding is one of the first things in the development process, chances are good the story of Diablo 3 was written in parallel with The Sin War trilogy to keep things consistent, especially since it has been stated that TSW is canon material.

[lionheart]

I hope so very much, for now im gonna keep my faith in them to deliver a good story line and we will see in the end how it goes

[Thirty-Thirty]

Diablo soulstone has been destroyed, as shown in the video in-game.Nooooo! I don't understand where the confusion is! This fact is not certain. Blizzard can say that Marius was mistaken, and keep it around. Even in the cinematic (IIRC), Marius says that he heard that Diablo's soulstone was destroyed.

[Swiffer]

I hope so very much, for now im gonna keep my faith in them to deliver a good story line and we will see in the end how it goes

Keep the faith, Blizzard are pretty good when it comes to telling a story :D

[Idomis]

What are the implications of Cain having a shard of the Worldstone? Is it what's (apparently) corrupting him, considering that it was (potentially) corrupted initially by Baal?

Cain can be seen holding what appears to be a shard here. (http://www.diii.net/gallery/showphoto.php?photo=717&cat=563)

Furthermore, are the Soulstones related in origin to the Worldstone? Might Cain's shard be the continuation of the Soulstone storyline? I've not read the Sin War trilogy (but I intend to), and I'm currently downloading the three Diablo manuals from the Blizzard FTP. They were put online in May. Here are the links for those of us who've lost our manuals.

Diablo (http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/Diablo.PDF)
Diablo II (http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/Diablo%20II%20Manual.pdf)
Diablo II: LoD (http://ftp.blizzard.com/pub/misc/Diablo%20II%20-%20Lord%20of%20Destruction.pdf)

[Alkey]

That does look like a worldstone shard. Good find. It may or may not still contain the corruption of Baal. And we don't know exactly what that corrution was suppose to achieve. But that wouldn't stop cain from finding a piece to study.