How about steerable minions?

[Cast_Raider]

Hey Blizzard employees, I hope you are browsing, because I would like to tell you about one of the most annoying features of summons in D2: they don't attack where you want them to.

This is why the Enigma runeword is so great. Oh sure, I like to move quickly across the map as much as the next guy. But that's just gravy, and not really that much different than loading up on lots of faster running gear. No, faster movement is not why I like enigma on my necromancer.

The reason is: teleporting is the only real way to command your army. Otherwise, you're just sort of making friendly suggestions to them. Teleporting puts them exactly where you want them.

But teleport as it curently exists in D2 is pretty cheesy. A summoner shouldn't need teleport to begin with. He should have some sort of point and click thing for his minions. Maybe even something where you have several little groups hotkeyed, like in Starcraft or Age of Empires.

Also: in D2, Blizz seems to have had an aversion to making summons too strong. The necro and druid minions were just a sad joke for most of D2's history. I assume there is a reason for this phobia you guys seem to have--having powerful minions makes the game too safe and easy?

Sooo...keeping that in mind, how do we make a summoner powerful, but at the same time, not a lazy risk-free class? The only thing I can think of is, tie his health to summons just like the blood golem, or something. Or have the summons be boosted by whatever armor/weapons you are wearing.

Suggestions?

[TheSakari]

I could see them adding in something like a necro's "attract" type ability

[prion]

that would be the easiest way to do it. Call it 'target' and all the minions head toward where you click

[Mad Mantis]

That would be incredible. I hate it when my skellies decide that they'd rather ignore the Greater Mummy in favor of his minions. Having the WD steer his minions would be great.

[lukefojut]

While steering minions might work out to be a useful idea, the somewhat random nature of the attacks of summons in DII added greatly to the fun and sometime unpredictability of the character. HC Necros will know what I mean!

[Zarniwoop]

I guess you could get an attract like thing that sent your mongrels that way.

[lukefojut]

I guess you could get an attract like thing that sent your mongrels that way.

I think that's already been suggested a few times!

It would be pretty easy to add this into a skill tree (just say something about herbs and roots, or scent marking (for all you Wolfie fans :crazyeyes:) and you have a new skill...)

[Cast_Raider]

Personally I want to have my minions linked to right click in some way. I mean a sorc right clicks and puts lightning exactly where she wants it. I want to do the same. You would just have to group them and bind them to a keyboard number beforehand.

I'm not as fond of the attract idea because I might want different minion types attacking different targets. And it wouldn't work for making them walk towards an empty patch of terrain.

Of course for rookies, the minion AI would default and let them work without guidance. Grouping and guiding would be for more advanced players.

[Sein Schatten]

Personally I want to have my minions linked to right click in some way. I mean a sorc right clicks and puts lightning exactly where she wants it. I want to do the same. You would just have to group them and bind them to a keyboard number beforehand.

I'm not as fond of the attract idea because I might want different minion types attacking different targets. And it wouldn't work for making them walk towards an empty patch of terrain.

Of course for rookies, the minion AI would default and let them work without guidance. Grouping and guiding would be for more advanced players.

Yeah, I can actually see implementing rudimentary behaviours. Like attack everything, attack when player is attacked and the a command to attack a specific target. Seems pretty easy to do and does not derive too much to the click, click, click style of Diablo. :)

[Tsumaru]

Cast_Raider - The only problem I see with this is you're basically creating an RTS, where you can completely "unclick" everything. Which means that every time you want to default back to your normal hero, you have to click him or push a key which you've binded. I dunno about you guys, but this would be a bit annoying for me playing an RPG. It just doesn't feel right.

An attract type system would probably be a bit easier and keep that RPG feel more. It would just be one skill, like, "Direct Minions" (sounds lame, I know, but that's just a conservative name) and although you can't split and choose and create all these hardcore tactics - if you wanted that, you're probably playing the wrong style of game.

[sicilian]

Cast_Raider - The only problem I see with this is you're basically creating an RTS, where you can completely "unclick" everything. Which means that every time you want to default back to your normal hero, you have to click him or push a key which you've binded. I dunno about you guys, but this would be a bit annoying for me playing an RPG. It just doesn't feel right.

An attract type system would probably be a bit easier and keep that RPG feel more. It would just be one skill, like, "Direct Minions" (sounds lame, I know, but that's just a conservative name) and although you can't split and choose and create all these hardcore tactics - if you wanted that, you're probably playing the wrong style of game.

I agree. Not having complete control over your minions was one of the only things that balanced a skelemancer PvM after 1.10. My skellies were level 30 (with 30 mastery) by end game. The only time my guy got touched was with those damn lightning ghosts (burning souls maybe?), or if one Oblivion Knight caused my whole army to 1-shot itself :P

Attract is the right way to do it, because it forced you to choose between targetting a specific monster, or putting a regular curse on them. You couldn't do both, so it added a strategy. Complete control would make them too easy.

[ehertlein]

Complete control would make them too easy.

Sure it would, if everything else were left the same. Personally I would prefer a less powerful minion that I had some control over to insanely powered skeletons that destroyed everything in my path unless I was unlucky enough for them to target the wrong thing.

[raveharu]

This idea is a big nono. It doesn't suit the Diablo style of playing.

In fact, it reminds me of RTS games like Warcraft, summoning minions and having the ability to control them.

[Matora]

Something that springs to mind is the way skeletons ran around a necro when standing still in D2. What if the skeletons moved in the general direction of the character, but slightly ahead of them, moving in close when he's on the move and engaging monsters ahead? Kinda like a fixed formation you summon them into.

[Sein Schatten]

moving in close when he's on the move and engaging monsters ahead? Kinda like a fixed formation you summon them into.

That would work. That is better like the D2 system where the summons always walk behind the necro.

[Matora]

Or the mages standing in front of the skellies, right next to the monstrosities of Hell, seriously.

[sicilian]

Sure it would, if everything else were left the same. Personally I would prefer a less powerful minion that I had some control over to insanely powered skeletons that destroyed everything in my path unless I was unlucky enough for them to target the wrong thing.

But the better solution to that problem is to improve the AI. Have formations like people said, or just make sure that the summons tried their best to work together. It seems like the mobs you fight are going to have better tactics, so it would make sense your summons will be smarter as well.

There should be a chaos to summoning, because you're not controlling their minds, you're just calling them forth to do your bidding.

The only thing about controllable summons I think WOULD be cool, is if the more you chose to give them a specific commands, the greater the chance they would turn on you. That would give you a sense of risk / reward. Push your summons too hard, and your spells won't keep them loyal ;)

[AxlStrife]

"Steering minions" through an RTS-style definitely would kill the feel of Diablo, though the attract-style would be alright if you wanted to focus on one enemy at a time.

Sicilian proposes some good views and ideas and the "turning on you" enemies would definitely add a new dynamic, assuming when this happens Locust Swarm and Firebomb will damage them. Then again you can just blow them up, just don't kill yourself in the process. That would make me laugh.

Go Witch Doctor!

[melianor]

I would be more in favor of the option to click on an enemy and make the group of minions concentrate on that one. Specially good when facing boss packs. Really steering the minions around would be mostly senseless. The game is about "Click target/Spam area spell" -> "kill monsters"

[Zeek]

I would like just a few basic commands for the summons. Something like "engage specific target" (click an enemy and all the minions go after them), "defend me" (call all the summons back to surround you and attack anyone the closest monster nearby), "attack" (sorta the default mode that summons are in during D2)

The thing is I really want something like this for mercs too. How many times have you had to tp back to town to revive your merc cause you couldn't tell him to stand down when he got hit by iron maiden. Is there really a point to that? It just slows down the gameplay. I don't think it's unreasonable to think a character would call out to their mercenary and tell them to stand down or give other types of orders like that. I don't think we should go too far into micromanaging but a few simple commands would be nice.

[Sein Schatten]

The thing is I really want something like this for mercs too. How many times have you had to tp back to town to revive your merc cause you couldn't tell him to stand down when he got hit by iron maiden. Is there really a point to that? It just slows down the gameplay. I don't think it's unreasonable to think a character would call out to their mercenary and tell them to stand down or give other types of orders like that. I don't think we should go too far into micromanaging but a few simple commands would be nice.

I totally agree. That the merc is so dumb really annoys me. One curse and you are back to town. Just tell him to not attack is enough. That way, mobs might still attack him but he won't kill himself with IM.

[imjustsomeguy]

In Titan Quest you can click on a pet portrait and tell them to go anywhere or attack any target. While it seems like a cool feature I hardly ever use it. It's just too much micro management when you have multiple summons and are busy using your spells to attack.

In the game Overlord you command a ton of imp like guys. You can have them attack a single target and return at any time. By holding down both mouse buttons you lose control of your character and your mouse literally steers the mob of summons. It works well for Overlord but I don't see it happening in D3. There's just too action to bother with it.

One thing that bothers me in TQ is how my pets run off and attack targets I don't want them to. They will go all the way off the screen (even with high resolution) and pick a fight with something while I'm waiting for a cooldown or when I'll be trying to go the opposite direction. In D3 I would like to see something similer to what WoW has done with pets: Passive, Defensive, and Agressive settings (similer to the formation option mentioned above).

[ill logic]

I think the inability to focus the attacks of all your summons tends to dramatically reduce a summoner's killing speed. I like the Attract idea but I'd prefer if it weren't a skill in a tree per se, but rather something you always had like the Nec's "Unsummon." If it must be a choosable skill, it should have a secondary effect IMO.

Re-summoning next to the target is cumbersome--too mana consuming and slow.

imjustsomeguy: That sounds cool but do you think WoW's system would be sufficient? We're talking about fighting 12+ monsters at once, or if you're bold, running into the middle of a room with 30-50 monsters!

[imjustsomeguy]

imjustsomeguy: That sounds cool but do you think WoW's system would be sufficient? We're talking about fighting 12+ monsters at once, or if you're bold, running into the middle of a room with 30-50 monsters!

My thinking was that I would be so consumed with casting terror, mass confuse, zombie wall, as well as all the direct damage attacks while dodging demons to worry about managing individual summons. The action from the game video seems to be pretty fast pace. I can see how an option for focus fire amoung summons would be useful though. I personally like self sufficient undead mongrels :propeller: but I suppose with more options comes more forms of gameplay.