Resurrections?

[MoUsE_WiZ]

Let's imagine, for a moment, that D3 ends up pay to play.
I really doubt it will, but just imagine it does.
That would mean we'd have a fairly significant support staff of GMs.

Do you think they'd start giving special case resurrections? Cases such as death by hacker, for example. If it were pay to play they'd have the resources. They frequently give gold or crafting mats back to scam victims on WoW. They've resed HC characters in the past to the most devestating of exploits (account theft via creating same account on other realms, for example), so there's a bit of a precedent, both for the resurrection of HC characters, and for the investigation of individual incidents...

So, let's say they randomly have hostility be a client side action again, for the sake of arguement - if you died to such a hack, do you think in D3, if Blizzard were given the resources, you might get your character back? Would you want it back?

It's not really something I've ever thought of before, and I'm not entirely sure where I stand. The stubborn elitist in me says "HC is HC, death is death", and that's the way I'm leaning, but I'd be interested in hearing other opinions.
Maybe the SPHC folks have more insight on the matter because they actually have the ability to do it when freak accidents occur?

[Motaro]

You mention alot about death by hacks. Blizzard in this day and age better be able to make D3 more highly secure from those type of things.......

[MoUsE_WiZ]

You mention alot about death by hacks. Blizzard in this day and age better be able to make D3 more highly secure from those type of things.......
They'd better have fewer pop up, and they'd better be a lot better about fixing/banning people using them, but I still expect hacks or nasty exploits (eg angelic bug from D2, more recently, in AoC it was momentarily possible to exploit an ability to create an AoE attack that had the area covering an entire zone, speed hacks are very tough to eliminate, WoW has had server crash exploits in recent memory, etc) to pop up.

I don't expect a situation like we've got with TPPK right now. But I expect that there will be the occaisional one that pops up, results in multiple people dead, the users banned, the exploit/hack fixed shortly, but the question is, will the players stay dead?

[Mirdo]

I can't see it happening, not least because as soon as people realise there is possibly a way back, the support staff would get endless 'I died, can you just..' calls.

[5zigen]

If there is non consentual pvp in D3 I honestly worry a lot about speedhack. Because it's fairly easy to catch after the fact but I've never seen a game that has been able to prevent it completely.

PK + Maphack + speedhack would essentially be the new tppk.

[Baranor]

whats speedhack?

[5zigen]

whats speedhack?

Basically it has many incarnations. Theres different teleport hacks and speedhacks in most 3d online games.

I'm not exactly sure how they work but they essentially tell the server you are in a different place than you actually are. In D2 that would cause massive desynch, but in most other games it works.

Every once in a while you see it in WoW pvp games, someone gets out of the gates before the game starts and caps things, and then proceeds to essentially teleport around the map.

Same thing happens in certain FPS's that I've played, the ones that people wanted to cheat in I guess (mostly counterstrike). Someone with speedhack basically just moves at 10x the speed and you cant always see where they are.

From what I understand they're fairly hard to stop, but I'm not sure why.

[Flux]

There was talk about enabling a special dueling mode for HC in the pre-d2 days, in which the HC function would have been disabled. So you could basically join a special arena/dueling game in which you'd be non-hardcore, able to die all you wanted, like a regular character.

That obviously didn't happen, nor did any type of arena game, but it would have added an interesting wrinkle. I'm against that idea, in retrospect. I think it cheapens the HC experience if any deaths don't count. It's incumbent on the game makers to prevent cheats and hacks from ruining the experience; trying to ameliorate that by allowing some forms of resurrection is problematic and at best a dirty bandaid on a wound.

[5zigen]

That obviously didn't happen, nor did any type of arena game, but it would have added an interesting wrinkle. I'm against that idea, in retrospect. I think it cheapens the HC experience if any deaths don't count. It's incumbent on the game makers to prevent cheats and hacks from ruining the experience; trying to ameliorate that by allowing some forms of resurrection is problematic and at best a dirty bandaid on a wound.

I agree, mostly, but you have to then make a decision which sacrifice needs to be made.

Either you make the sacrifice that cheapens HC (allowing ressurections when the death was due to a hack / cheat) or that sacrifices the game mechanic (non-consentual PvP) that enables the hack to cause the loss.

Or the third option I guess which is to not remove either, and just take the negatives that come with that.

[IhatePindle]

Mouse there's a very small chance it would be pay to play. Pretty much none.

But if there was, I don't think being resurrected would be what I'd want, but to have the cd key of the hacker banned... and if DMs can do that, then great.

My guess is, either games are going to have an option allow hostility or not. Or to be hostile both sides have to agree... but that's just a WAG.

[Baranor]

HC should be HC, and death in duelling is just like death to monsters... you die, end of story.

[Lothae]

I think that having immortality in HC for dueling would cheapen the experience. The whole reason most players (I like to make assumptions) duel in HC is for the rush. I can't remember the specific duels I had six or seven years ago, but I sure remember my frantic heart beat and the butterflies that zapped my CNS.

In fact, thats one of the major reasons I plan on buying D3. I can't wait to play in HC mode and then hopefully start dueling again. If Blizz drastically changes the pvp system, I guess I will still play, but I won't be consumed or fully enamored with the game. There was no greater joy for me than spending countless hours perfecting my pvp machine and then finally testing it out. Win or lose, the rush came, I just don't think it would be the same with a temporary SC arena.

On a side note: Does anyone remember how long it took for hacks to become plentiful on D2C when it first came out? I hope Blizz has strong protection against hacks if they upgrade Bnet. It would be awesome to get a decent stretch of time out of the game before it gets polluted.

PS: I don't see a spellchecker, so hopefully I wrote this decently.

PSS: Is there a spellchecker and I am blind?

PSSS: Most likely.

[Baranor]

I see someone performed necromancy on you too Lothae? Excellent! Welcome back.

[Angel_of_Wrath]

Wow, the ancients have returned! Shaping up to be a good HC community again! Now where's that dancing turtle... I liked his moves.

IIRC, the initial hack was the gambling sniffer, no? You could see what was the actual item offered in the gambling window. So if you had nagel and manald in your inventory, you had a good chance of gambling SoJ. I can't remember that far back. I wasn't a cheat user myself, but I think there was a fair bit of duping at the top of the ladder within a few months from the conversations I had with people. The general population was pretty clean for a while, till the rare lances and dual leech rings started showing up... but I don't know the SC situation, it may have been sooner.

[5zigen]

IIRC, the initial hack was the gambling sniffer, no? You could see what was the actual item offered in the gambling window. So if you had nagel and manald in your inventory, you had a good chance of gambling SoJ.

You didn't NEED a gambling sniffer, it was pretty easy just when you had a manald and a nagel in the game and a lvl 26 char (i think), you ended up getting a soj like every 5 rings or something obscenely high like that.

After that people would get an inventory of them, and dupe the whole char's inventory basically.

Not sure what this has to do with resurrections :P

[MoUsE_WiZ]

For those against the resurrections in hack related deaths, I don't disagree, but could you maybe give a reason beyond "cheapening the experience"? Hacks cheapen the experience much more, and have never been completely prevented in any popular game that I'm aware of... is it just because we're so used to having no recourse vs TPPKs, drop hacks, and the previously mentioned hostile anywhere, at this point that we want to continue making everyone suffer? I mean, I'm all for making everyone suffer, but sitting here trying to come up with a reason it's kind of tough to think of any.

I can't see it happening, not least because as soon as people realise there is possibly a way back, the support staff would get endless 'I died, can you just..' calls.
In D2 right now keyloggers are pretty much punishment for people who try to cheat.
In WoW right now, selling gold and accounts is big business. There's all kinds of phishing going on on their forums trying to abuse security holes in browsers.
The difference between the two games is that dupe methods kind of make it impossible for anyone trying to get make serious money any other way to operate.
In D3, hopefully duping won't be an issue, so I'll assume gold farmers will be.
Based on D2&Blizzard's ongoing success, I also assume the game will be big enough business to warrant phishing on the level WoW's got going on.

Blizzard has clearly set the precedent in WoW that they are willing to return items/gold to people who have been a bit careless following links on their forums... I would not be shocked if they started doing the same in D3. I would also not be shocked if they resed dead characters that were killed by someone who should not have been on the account... keep in mind they did it in D2 the (I think) 2 times mass account theft became an issue.

I suspect that customer service will be busy with "I died res me" calls regardless of if they res for death-to-hacker or not.

You didn't NEED a gambling sniffer,
Sniffer likely made it a whole lot easier though, and back then there were public dupes but they weren't like some of the idiot proof ones of .09, more of the desynch your game and time some leaving/joining perfectly type methods.

Also, first hack to hit b.net was hostile anywhere.
Second was speed hack. I think speedhack still works in D2 btw (or would if it were updated), it's just that it'll get you banned and has next to no advantages due to desynch issues (which are NOT a solution, desynchs take away from the fun for everyone).
I think techwarrior had hostile anywhere ready to go before the game was released, I don't recall if he actually did release it on day 1, but it was very early regardless, and I do recall his bragging that the unhackable realm system was going to be hacked from release.

[entranced]

Would you want it back?


My first thought was no way, no rezzing for any reason. But upon further reflection, yes, absolutely, because such resurrections would significantly improve my gameplay experience. When PK hacks become available, i basically never touch coop/MP again. I'd be all for them restoring characters that were killed by hacks before they were fixed.


Maybe the SPHC folks have more insight on the matter because they actually have the ability to do it when freak accidents occur?


I've played a considerable amount of SPHC and have never had a freak occurence. Any death has been legit and i never considered restoring. Examples i can think of though, involve input tools: someone having their keyboard/mouse batteries die, or accidentally unplugging keyboard/mouse, or k/m breaks. I could definitely see an argument for restoring in those situations. But honestly, personally it wouldn't feel right installing a 2 week old backup even for such a situation. I'd just start over.

Wishy washy response innit? :P

[Lothae]

For those against the resurrections in hack related deaths, I don't disagree, but could you maybe give a reason beyond "cheapening the experience"?


If you were quoting me saying "cheapening the experience" I meant during dueling, not hack-related deaths. I fully support some type of res system when hacks are used against another player. Many times have I been in dueling games and someone whips out a drop-hack because they think find it "amusing."

I guess its up to Blizz at this point. I have no idea how they would sort out hack deaths from non-hack deaths unless they were specifically targeting a certain hack.


Hello Barry, long time no chat. How are the rest of the old guard doing? Anyone still around or plan on coming back? I hope to see some familiar faces on D3!

[MoUsE_WiZ]

If you were quoting me saying "cheapening the experience"

Nah, you're not the only one who used the line in this thread... and for the people who didn't use said line, it still seems to be about their sentiment.

[5zigen]

Nah, you're not the only one who used the line in this thread... and for the people who didn't use said line, it still seems to be about their sentiment.

The question is, what is more detrimental to the experience, being able to be killed via hacks or being able to have your character restored under such circumstances.

I think they would go with not allowing ressurections because it's simply less work.

That said, I think it would be more useful to simply subvert the whole issue and remove the non-consentual pvp from the game. But I'm sure some people think that would 'cheapen the experience' as well.