View Full Version : Save&Exit discussion
coldsong
02-07-2008, 18:34
Personally I think Save/Exit system is idiotic. During duels people just exit at low life. In tight spot all you need to do is click esc+enter to save yourself. But worse of all..... is the chicken hack, which is basically a macro and thus unpreventable by blizzard NO MATTER WHAT.
As such I would love to have the save/exit system undone, like in WoW (you cannot log out while in combat, logging out takes 20 seconds). Same thing should go for creating town portals.
This would make hardcore sooo much tougher and get rid of all the little scrub kiddies who put on chicken hack.
ZappaFan
02-07-2008, 18:45
Hmmmm, this is a tough one, because I can see both sides. Maybe make the 20 sec wait PVP only?
coldsong
02-07-2008, 18:49
knowing blizzard they would never make such distinction. if they set a rule, there are no soft exceptions.
If Health globes play a major role in how you heal yourself then the Save & Exit might be crucial, or else we might end up with a Hardcore mode with ultra-safe gaming, instead of a possibly ruthless adrenaline fueled nightmare.
And besides, noone wants to watch their character about to die for 10 seconds as the timer counts down before they exit. :)
MoUsE_WiZ
02-07-2008, 19:02
As such I would love to have the save/exit system undone, like in WoW (you cannot log out while in combat, logging out takes 20 seconds). Same thing should go for creating town portals.
I agree with the sentiment, not the implementation.
First of all "in and out of combat" is silly.
I'm in a dungeon fighting monsters, I'm in combat even if there isn't one pestering me ><
Secondly it creates extra issues, mobs evading and keeping you in combat for no good reason forcing you to run away randomly to accomplish things. Basically it just generally slows the game down.
Same with waiting 20 seconds to log out? WTF do I want to do nothing for 20 seconds for? It's lame and boring. It's like an entire meph run. D1&2 are action games and slowing things down that much to log out is silly.
Here's what I'd like to see:
1) Only allow log out in town. Someone alt+f4s outside of town, they time out as slowly as if their PC had crashed.
2) Take away portals so that you can't accidentally run out at the bottom of a very long dungeon, replace with an inherent skill.
3) Said skill should take ~7 seconds to cast. It should be castable with things beating on you (so long as they don't put you into recovery or whatever... cast times and push back are for slow paced games, this would be the only exception). Seven seconds is long enough in both previous diablo games that you either would have died or been in no danger, no need to artificially inflate the time to 20 seconds just because that's what it's like in WoW.
That's my opinion anyways.
Also - I'd have voted "aye" in the poll, except I'm getting the error that said poll is closed.
Also #2 - You stole my thread. But I guess that's ok.
coldsong
02-07-2008, 19:10
I agree with the sentiment, not the implementation.
First of all "in and out of combat" is silly.
I'm in a dungeon fighting monsters, I'm in combat even if there isn't one pestering me ><
Secondly it creates extra issues, mobs evading and keeping you in combat for no good reason forcing you to run away randomly to accomplish things. Basically it just generally slows the game down.
Same with waiting 20 seconds to log out? WTF do I want to do nothing for 20 seconds for? It's lame and boring. It's like an entire meph run. D1&2 are action games and slowing things down that much to log out is silly.
Here's what I'd like to see:
1) Only allow log out in town. Someone alt+f4s outside of town, they time out as slowly as if their PC had crashed.
2) Take away portals so that you can't accidentally run out at the bottom of a very long dungeon, replace with an inherent skill.
3) Said skill should take ~7 seconds to cast. It should be castable with things beating on you (so long as they don't put you into recovery or whatever... cast times and push back are for slow paced games, this would be the only exception). Seven seconds is long enough in both previous diablo games that you either would have died or been in no danger, no need to artificially inflate the time to 20 seconds just because that's what it's like in WoW.
That's my opinion anyways.
Also - I'd have voted "aye" in the poll, except I'm getting the error that said poll is closed.
Also #2 - You stole my thread. But I guess that's ok.
I agree on this variation :]
I agree with the sentiment, not the implementation.
Yeah I was going to post this thread too. And I think mouse' implementation was pretty good.
Obviously from my other post my answer to this would be aye as well.
In addition, having the "instant save & exit" opens the game up to scripters and chickenhack.
My solution was this, though.
5 second cast Town Portal that is not modified by FCR first. This will take away the in game mechanic of portaling whenever you see something dangerous. (I agree it should be made a skill too, like a tome skill from D1)
Second, I dont like the idea that you can only logout in town. I do like the WoW implementation also.
So, that being said, if you logout in a dungeon, have it take 10 seconds (with a "logout now" button that will exit the game client side, but leave your character in game for 10 more seconds.) If you log out in town, make the logout instant.
That way if people need to log out in the dungeon for an emergency they can log out instantly, it's just at a risk of their character.
This would solve a lot of my gripes with D2 being too easy and I think it would make it a lot more tactical than it is currently.
this would basically make it so that adults can't play hardcore because if someone is banging on your door or your kid is bothering your or the dishwasher explodes you need to be able to leave the game or portal to town immediately
this would basically make it so that adults can't play hardcore because if someone is banging on your door or your kid is bothering your or the dishwasher explodes you need to be able to leave the game or portal to town immediately
Because you cant wait 4 seconds to answer the door? or the dishwasher is going to blow up more if you wait 4 seconds to get up?
MoUsE_WiZ
03-07-2008, 12:58
Because you cant wait 4 seconds to answer the door? or the dishwasher is going to blow up more if you wait 4 seconds to get up?
That was about my reaction upon reading his post, but then I thought a little further.
If you're in a duel or a crowded area something it's not just the x second to log out, it's the time to finish what you're doing so you can wait the x seconds without dying, and to that he has a point.
Would, say, an instant portal (not logout, as you don't want to lose your place on the map) spell on an hour long cooldown or something be a reasonable way of solving that issue? Or would people just be silly and wait until it was back up before every duel they got, or before going to do anything dangerous? And if they were being silly like that, would it really matter... 1 hour (or maybe longer, up to 4 I think would be reasonable) seems like a fairly decent penalty to be doing nothing if you're going to wait for it every time.
That was about my reaction upon reading his post, but then I thought a little further.
If you're in a duel or a crowded area something it's not just the x second to log out, it's the time to finish what you're doing so you can wait the x seconds without dying, and to that he has a point.
Would, say, an instant portal (not logout, as you don't want to lose your place on the map) spell on an hour long cooldown or something be a reasonable way of solving that issue? Or would people just be silly and wait until it was back up before every duel they got, or before going to do anything dangerous? And if they were being silly like that, would it really matter... 1 hour (or maybe longer, up to 4 I think would be reasonable) seems like a fairly decent penalty to be doing nothing if you're going to wait for it every time.
Well, that is a good point, but say we add a "hearthstone" to the game that worked as an instant portal once every hour. You still end up with the exact same script abuse problems.
When you play, how often do you think you run into a 'close call' certainly less than once an hour, so the chickenhack that automatically uses your hearthstone every time you're in a close call situation would still be intact and still compromise the integrity and purity of hardcore mode.
What about this: What if instead of a 4 or 5 second cast time, your town portal took 5 seconds to activate. So you cast it, and 5 seconds later it's open, but that leaves you free to evade enemies and generally try to stay alive for 5 seconds, solving the duel + emergency problem without enabling super easy scripting your way out of any deaths.
I'm tempted to say problem solved, but there might be something I'm overlooking like in my initial response.
coldsong
03-07-2008, 14:05
well by that logic adults shouldnt be playing lots of multiplayer games - but they do. dishwasher exploding in the middle of illidan kill is not a good way to earn your DKP either ;]
Regardless, i think more or less all of HC people understand that S/E system should be changed. I guess we will see what Blizzard does about it.
coldsong
03-07-2008, 14:06
p.s. i dont know why the poll is closed. sigh
ZappaFan
03-07-2008, 15:04
There's something buggy going on with polls in the forums right now...
generatedname
03-07-2008, 17:26
LAG SPIKE.
just ran into a group of dolls or ghouls or whatever your nemesis is and suddenly everything stops moving.
Options: Pray for the best, run back and forth to try to get the server caught up with you. Save & Exit and GTFO of that impossible trap.
So, its this simple. Hardcore + latency = need for an instant exit.
coldsong
03-07-2008, 18:34
s/e will not save you from a lag spike. There will be delay regardless, during which you will be standing still.
Because you cant wait 4 seconds to answer the door? or the dishwasher is going to blow up more if you wait 4 seconds to get up?
Evidently, you don't have kids. There are some things that require 110% of your attention RIGHT NOW! :wink:
coldsong
03-07-2008, 19:35
well by that logic a game should be least of your priorities.
reaction speed, and ability to assess the danger of a situation, is a valid skill (of course, so is avoiding the situation in the first place). How about a penalty for s+eing outside of town, such as a significent experience reduction, rather than an outright ban?
/joke
MoUsE_WiZ
03-07-2008, 21:09
LAG SPIKE.
1) As mentioned, if you're going to drop you're still stuck there timing out.
2) Hopefully D2 will have much better servers... remember a LOT of the lag right now is caused by people trying to dupe... we'd better not have to deal with that again.
When you play, how often do you think you run into a 'close call' certainly less than once an hour
I was thinking about that as I posted it.
And you're kind of right in that the chances of it being used that often are kind of low, but it's my opinion that if someone is relying on that ability to save themself they aren't going to be playing while it's down on the chance that 2 close calls came up at once.
Perhaps force the time out?
What if instead of a 4 or 5 second cast time, your town portal took 5 seconds to activate. So you cast it, and 5 seconds later it's open, but that leaves you free to evade enemies and generally try to stay alive for 5 seconds, solving the duel + emergency problem without enabling super easy scripting your way out of any deaths.
It occurs to me that with either of our systems people can cast their portal before hand and run into danger with it up.
For that reason I'd like some sort of 1 way portal to get players down to you (or yourself back to where you were) and just a hearth sort of thing to get yourself back to town. But now I wonder if the system isn't getting over complicated.
reaction speed, and ability to assess the danger of a situation, is a valid skill. How about a penalty for s+eing outside of town, such as an experience reduction?
Duelers don't want exp.
LLDs might even want to get rid of it.
This might be an ok way to set it up in PvM, but PvP it would do nothing.
Also, you edited I think. Or at least I didn't see the line about either the ban or the /joke before.
I hate writing /joke, /sarcasm, etc, but the joke was almost certainly too subtle otherwise.
I think tping and entering a tp fast is the real valid skill incidentally, but if
chicken hack, which is basically a macro and thus unpreventable by blizzard NO MATTER WHAT.
is true, then the same applies for automatic tp scripts I assume.
I'm personally of the opinion that there should be no requirements of "Out of combat". Why? Because I played a Warrior on WoW for 2 years. One of their skills is called Charge. Charge requires you to be "Out of combat" as defined by Blizzard's servers. Most buggy feature EVER. It doesn't work properly at all! You often have to wait 5-10 seconds just to get out of combat in a PvP encounter. Plus, I don't want WoW in my Diablo.
It occurs to me that with either of our systems people can cast their portal before hand and run into danger with it up.
For that reason I'd like some sort of 1 way portal to get players down to you (or yourself back to where you were) and just a hearth sort of thing to get yourself back to town. But now I wonder if the system isn't getting over complicated.
Well I dont think preportaling is that much of a problem. I mean, in that case you cast a portal, run into enemies, then decide you cant do it so you retreat into your portal. Thats not quite the same as the instant safety net of S&E or TP macros and in that way I think it would solve the problem.
I think having multiple types of TP would be overly complicated personally. Keeping it simple and then working to make those simple things unabusable is going to be much less cumbersome than having multiple types of portal.
I do think it's sad that people think if you have Kids, a Husband/Wife, or some other "life" that you're not deserving to game with them...
Since when did this happen? Someday, you'll grow up and have kids and a possible marriage... You plan to drop everything you know and love just b/c of this?
Seriously people. There are things that are more important than games, but there's also time to play games as an.... "Adult" O.o...
In the end... I prefer the old D2 system. Something pops up, and I need to go.. I can do so. Just my thoughts on this anyway.
I do think it's sad that people think if you have Kids, a Husband/Wife, or some other "life" that you're not deserving to game with them...
Since when did this happen? Someday, you'll grow up and have kids and a possible marriage... You plan to drop everything you know and love just b/c of this?
Seriously people. There are things that are more important than games, but there's also time to play games as an.... "Adult" O.o...
In the end... I prefer the old D2 system. Something pops up, and I need to go.. I can do so. Just my thoughts on this anyway.
No one is saying that you arent deserving to play with them. In fact the systems that have been proposed are much more "adult / family friendly" than WoW raiding which is populated largely by adults.
The thing is this, The game shouldnt be tailored to your extrordinary circumstances. The game shouldnt be dumbed down just because some emergency might come up for anyone.
And thats what it comes down to, an emergency can arise for ANYONE, not just adults. How we handle that emergency is the only question.
Further, playing with multiple people would be the best bet for someone in D2 or 3 if they had kids and couldnt instantly save and exit. They could just say to their friend "exiting, protect me" then their friend makes sure they dont die in the exit sequence, problem solved.
Opening up the game to huge game breaking exploits (chicken) just because of potential emergencies is a terrible move imo.
P.S. I think you should notice when most of the people here joined the forum. The HC community is generally pretty old school so I would be careful talking about who is / isn't an 'adult'.
etslayer
04-07-2008, 00:51
I'm surprised that nobody here has mentioned anything conserning how this rule would affect character builds in HC.
Right now, characters make builds designed to kill people in one hit because otherwise the opponent can save n exit in the middle of battle.
By not allowing people to save and exit during a duel, people are likely to make more defensive builds for because they know that it's no longer necessary to concentrate so much on damage, cuz the opponent can't get away.
I don't know if this is good or bad, just an observation.
Also, the only way for this rule to work is if they eliminate non-concentual hostilities (aka PK). It would be unfair if someone could force you into battle (the way it is in D2) and you couldn't save and exit.
So if the save n exit rule is put into play, it means PK would have to be gone, which means that HC would totally suck, which means that D3 would be only a mediocre game.
coldsong
04-07-2008, 02:10
no instant S/E = pking gone??? ehhh.... actually pking just got very interesting
Also, the only way for this rule to work is if they eliminate non-concentual hostilities (aka PK). It would be unfair if someone could force you into battle (the way it is in D2) and you couldn't save and exit.
So if the save n exit rule is put into play, it means PK would have to be gone, which means that HC would totally suck, which means that D3 would be only a mediocre game.
Just going to point out that this isnt good logic.
Currently in D2 there is an intended 10 second delay on waypoint use. If it took 10 seconds to log out out of town, or 5 seconds to open a town portal, you still have a severe time advantage over the person who is pking.
If anything, instant S&E does more to discourage pking than anything else. It takes literally all the skill out of avoiding a pk because you can just S&E.
Additionally, if you play much HC you would know that a large number of PK's themselves run chickenhack, just in case you catch them off guard as a well setup twink they dont want to risk dying removing the instant S&E not only adds risk to the hunted but also the hunter.
PK wouldn't have to be taken out in the least.
MoUsE_WiZ
04-07-2008, 06:03
Well I dont think preportaling is that much of a problem. I mean, in that case you cast a portal, run into enemies, then decide you cant do it so you retreat into your portal.
In PvM I agree, if anything it's a tactical choice... wait x seconds for your portal to appear for added safety, or skip it for increased speed?
In PvP, I'd forsee a lot of people making their portals and proceeding to camp them.
In PvP, I'd forsee a lot of people making their portals and proceeding to camp them.
Is that really worse than the current state of affairs in D2? It's a step up imo. People can not only already camp their TP they can instantly cast and use it.
MoUsE_WiZ
04-07-2008, 07:03
Is that really worse than the current state of affairs in D2? It's a step up imo. People can not only already camp their TP they can instantly cast and use it.
Of course it's a step up, I'm just not sure it's that large of one.
What if the portal casts instantly, and using the portal is what takes the time?
Of course it's a step up, I'm just not sure it's that large of one.
What if the portal casts instantly, and using the portal is what takes the time?
Don't think that would work so well. Either you take damage while using the portal and we're back to a long casting time, or you dont take damage and we're back to an instant town portal.
I think the best idea is to not remove control of the character as a penalty for using a Town portal.
Taking control of the character away from the player is generally cruise control for bitterness.
I still maintain that having the potal take 5 seconds to activate (example you cast the spell instantly, then have 5 seconds to run around until it opens up), and possibly it taking 5 seconds to logout outside of town, while leaving control of the character in the players hands for those 5 seconds solves the problem of giving an instant escape to every character, and makes a nice compromise between people who have an emergency and people who feel it's too easy when you can S&E instantly.
MoUsE_WiZ
04-07-2008, 08:40
It doesn't necessarily have to be a nice controlled portal that you have to walk into. It could be an angry portal that sucks people who've come in contact with it through it and needs a few seconds to build up enough strength to accomplish that.
I think the 'portal taking time to use' would probably be the best 'solution' for this 'problem'.
But I think Blizzard will sooner make the game easier, rather than more difficult. So why are we discussing this?
ExtraStrongFireEnchanted
04-07-2008, 12:29
I think it would be a nice addition to D3 hardcore mode, compared to D2. Now that PK'ing is out I don't see why there shouldn't be more strict rules of exiting combat. As always I try to think of cool situations in D2 which would have been very different had 20-second rule was in place. Hell ancients with unlucky characteristic anyone?
coldsong
04-07-2008, 14:30
I think it would be a nice addition to D3 hardcore mode, compared to D2. Now that PK'ing is out I don't see why there shouldn't be more strict rules of exiting combat. As always I try to think of cool situations in D2 which would have been very different had 20-second rule was in place. Hell ancients with unlucky characteristic anyone?
PKing is out, what the hell do you mean?
PKing is out, what the hell do you mean?
He is referring to this I assume:
http://www.diii.net/n/669431/pking-played-down
Seperating PVP and PVM does create a possibility for having 2 standards for TPs and S&E.
1 for PVM, and 1 for PVP. The PVP one would come with heavy penalties (maybe dissallow it altogether, for truly hardcore PVP), the PVM one could be "easier".
coldsong
04-07-2008, 17:09
that quote doesnt mean much. They may put in safety measures like level restriction on hostiling, tp disappearing, wp duration, etc, i reeeeeeeally doubt they will remove hostile option all together
that quote doesnt mean much. They may put in safety measures like level restriction on hostiling, tp disappearing, wp duration, etc, i reeeeeeeally doubt they will remove hostile option all together
That quote is the only "official" info we have on the subject. And it says they directly oppose griefing and
"We have a large focus on cooperative play for Diablo III, and the mechanics and design decisions related to multiplayer are likely going to be based on supporting and encouraging it as much as possible, and not breaking it down. "
Hostiling D1 & D2 style is breaking down co-operation. It isn't specifically saying PK-ing and Diablo 1 & 2 type hostiling will be out, but it does go a long way towards that.
coldsong
04-07-2008, 18:59
time will tell
I think the 'portal taking time to use' would probably be the best 'solution' for this 'problem'.
But I think Blizzard will sooner make the game easier, rather than more difficult. So why are we discussing this?
Because it's not just about making the game "easier". It's about closing an exploit loop through ingame mechanics rather than trying to have some out of game big brother watching.
Not only that, the instant portal/S&E runs into degenerative gameplay and decreased usefulness of certain defensive skills, and ultimately it leads to extreme gameplay imbalances in the form of the only monsters being dangerous being the ones that can one shot you, which is the situation that resulted in D2.
Blizzard knows the importance of the death penalty, I doubt they are soon to make it easier to completely avoid death with a simple macro or script.
Lockinvar
07-07-2008, 11:09
I usually play games in a manner which satisfies my own sense of honor, which can involve dying rather than taking the easy way out with a quick exit. If others want to chicken out, that's their choice, it doesn't affect me (however it might affect *you* depending on what you care about..). What does affect me is TPPK: that's something which is not my choice - therefore for the last few years I have chosen to play alone rather than with scum.
So I'd like to see the save and exit kept, as I can't see the alternatives making griefing less prevalent, and I'd hate to see D3 slowed down to boring WoW standards. Whatever they end up with, if griefing isn't fixed I'll be playing by myself, or not at all.
Nilaripper
07-07-2008, 14:56
I think the 'portal taking time to use' would probably be the best 'solution' for this 'problem'.
A couple of months ago there was a thread about the town portal concept, i mentioned this as a problem but noone really cared about the topic. I am not surprised to see it again.When i play HC Mf runs, especially in early ladder, i make a tp before i begin the fight at andy or mephisto.The time to use system will not work.
The "best solution" has already been implemented by blizzard in their latest quest, Uber Tristram:
The impossibility to make Tps there has made this place the only TPPK safe area in the game.
RattleHead
07-07-2008, 16:02
Couple of things here, the timed "logout" is an MMO mechanic. Diablo has always been a single player game that could also be played on Bnet, but playing online was not required. The fact that most people did play online doesn't change the single player game mechanics that were/are in place. It would make no sense to have a timed save and exit in a single player game. Nor do I see Blizzard having different coding for a timed save and exit if you're playing online.
I've never had a problem with the system as it is, can't think of an instance where I had to use it. The hacks are a bigger problem, and that's something that Blizzard will need to handle aggressively and continuously.
coldsong
07-07-2008, 20:59
the problem is chicken hack isnt a hack per se. It is a macro that can be made by a five year old using an automator editor.
it is 100% undetectable. As a matter of fact, blizzard openly allows macros of this sort in WoW.
of course D3 is a different game and chickenhack downright ruins Hc.
The point of S/E change is to disallow the end(instant exit) rather than the mean(clicking 2 buttons really quick, which is what chickenhack does, essentially)
MoUsE_WiZ
08-07-2008, 11:49
The impossibility to make Tps
That works in ubertrist for 2 reasons:
1) it takes next to no time to get out of ubertrist the same way you went in
2) you can still flux in ubertrist
In D3, hopefully you will not be able to flux as chicken ruins PvP rather thoroughly, and there really isn't a good way to prevent chicken through software.
In D3, hopefully dungeon crawls won't be quite as short as ubertrist... what happens if you're down on maggot level 3? Are you going to have to run all the way back to the WP in the oasis to answer the phone or the door?
Edit: random thought that I *KNOW* will never be implemented but would make me giggle: Put a captcha on exit/portals, no leaving unless you can type the code XD
ZappaFan
08-07-2008, 21:12
After much careful thought and consideration I have decided that I like the S/E exactly the way it is right now for PvM but want them to fix it so it can't be exploited by the cheaters. I have no opinion in regards to PvP because I don't do dat.
Tough one, since when you die you DIE, i think we should be able to save and exit like in diablo 2.
After much careful thought and consideration I have decided that I like the S/E exactly the way it is right now for PvM but want them to fix it so it can't be exploited by the cheaters. I have no opinion in regards to PvP because I don't do dat.
How do you define "cheating" though?
Certainly a chickenhack is questionable because it automates the act.
What about binding a key to save and exit? That's going to be undetectable, is it cheating?
MoUsE_WiZ
09-07-2008, 06:27
How do you define "cheating" though?
Certainly a chickenhack is questionable because it automates the act.
What about binding a key to save and exit? That's going to be undetectable, is it cheating?
Indeed.
I'm using a G15 and a G9, I haven't bound any buttons into an S&E macro (or any D2 related macro) because it would feel too much like cheating in an old game like D2 that wasn't written with such hardware in mind, but it'd be easy enough for me to do it if I wanted to.
I'm fairly sure D3 will be taking such hardware into account as it's being designed, so if the S&E mechanic remains the same, it's safe to say macroing it on one easily accessible button will be rather common, and NOT considered cheating in the eyes of Blizz... they don't consider most of what you can do with macroable hardware cheating in WoW, drawing the line at macros that are essentially just simple bots.
I guess I should note:
FSS had speedy exiting in both Mythos and HG:L when I last played either game (they both also have HC modes, for those unaware).
So the original Diablo teams didn't feel it was something that warranted changing... who knows what the current team will decide though.
Edit: I think it really depends exactly how far back on the priority list HC PvP is, as HC PvP is where it hurts the most, followed by HC PvE... the softies likely don't even care, and it might be left as it is to not piss them off as there's more of them than us, and I'd be shocked if they had 2 seperate systems for the seperate modes.
Edit: I think it really depends exactly how far back on the priority list HC PvP is, as HC PvP is where it hurts the most, followed by HC PvE... the softies likely don't even care, and it might be left as it is to not piss them off as there's more of them than us, and I'd be shocked if they had 2 seperate systems for the seperate modes.
Well I think the crux of a healthy economy is a death penalty, and I think they know that.
I think the wow implementation is a good sign that they wont allow instant exits.
The most disturbing thing for me is that it isn't even a play mechanic, yet it is the most potent survival technique in all of Diablo.
I wonder if it would be possible to make instant S&E an option during game creation?
Hardcore PvP'ers and those that prefer could then select that mode when creating a game. It could be flagged on the game select screen such that people looking for a pickup can decide if they want to enter a game like that.
When creating FPS game servers there are generally a lot of options that can be changed for that specific game or match. There's nothing to really stop Blizz adding more options at the game creation stage in addition to the DII max players and level range.
Having read the arguments here, I understand how some people feel instant S&E takes away someting from the true hardcore mode. However, I personally I like the option to instant save and exit or instant TP. I use it more for convenience that actually saving my skin but, yes, I have save exited a nasty situation or two in the years I've played HC (PvM only)
It's convenient at times and is useful when you see a game starting to lag in a nasty area. I'm for keeping it as is (if exploiting the mechanic can be prevented).
Regarding the comment
"Well I think the crux of a healthy economy is a death penalty, and I think they know that."
I'm not sure what that has to do with instant S&E. Healthy economy is usually handled by the prevention of mudflation and I'm not sure preventing HC players instant exit will slow it down much. Bind on equip, no-trade and lore items (only one of each may be owned) are more effective ways to control a game economy.
Provided DIII is pretty deadly, instant S&E will save your behind sometimes, but not all the time. Therefore, I see no objection against it.
I'm not sure what that has to do with instant S&E. Healthy economy is usually handled by the prevention of mudflation and I'm not sure preventing HC players instant exit will slow it down much. Bind on equip, no-trade and lore items (only one of each may be owned) are more effective ways to control a game economy.
Well, one of the only ways to lose gold in D3 was death in SC. And the only way to actually lose items in HC was death.
By allowing instant exits you're essentially saying that your death penalty doesn't matter, in SC or HC, which really undermines the economy.
Well, one of the only ways to lose gold in D3 was death in SC. And the only way to actually lose items in HC was death.
By allowing instant exits you're essentially saying that your death penalty doesn't matter, in SC or HC, which really undermines the economy.
Do you think the removal of instant exits would play that big a role in economy inflation with a player base potentially numbering in the 10's of thousands?
Now the economy might be handled completely differently in DIII (MMO economy discussions are worthy of mutiple threads of their own) but it wasn't very hard in either SC or HC DII to amass large quantities of gold. The XP loss at high level in SC hurt a lot more than the loss of some gold that could be farmed back in 30 minutes or so.
As for HC deaths and their affects on a large market, a single death doesn't really slow down a competent/well connected or high time player for long. A percentage of the time the items will be salvaged and used in a rebuild anyway. Many players are rushed & levelled to a state they can re-equip those items in a few hours.
It could be argued that removing instant TP's and game exit would harm the slower, walk type players more. Power players will recover quicker from a loss and be farming and trading back in the economy much quicker than 'average' players.
The opposing argument is that if it is perceived by enough players or prospective players that it's too easy to die, they game could lose a chunk of player-base. That could have an equal or potentially greater effect on the market.
It's an interesting debate.
Do you think the removal of instant exits would play that big a role in economy inflation with a player base potentially numbering in the 10's of thousands?
Well really, it depends. I am hoping D3's economy will be more like WoW's economy. I know that's sacrilege, but in that case the death penalty will have meaning. In SC, particularly at early levels, the death penalty means nothing, which is the same as WoW. As you gain levels though it becomes more and more costly in both time and money.
In WoW they removed instant logout, and actually the game wont let you log out if you're in combat at all. It's debatable whether that was to prevent PvP griefing or avoidance of the PvE death penalty. But I am of the mindset that in WoW where gold means things, if I could have avoided every death penalty by simply logging out I would have, and I think they realize that.
So back to the question, I think that if the death penalty is sufficiently important, then it will have an impact on the economy. If we see a rehash of the D2 economy it certainly wont make any difference.
As for HC deaths and their affects on a large market, a single death doesn't really slow down a competent/well connected or high time player for long. A percentage of the time the items will be salvaged and used in a rebuild anyway. Many players are rushed & levelled to a state they can re-equip those items in a few hours.
It could be argued that removing instant TP's and game exit would harm the slower, walk type players more. Power players will recover quicker from a loss and be farming and trading back in the economy much quicker than 'average' players.
First thing Is that just because players can recoup even from hc deaths in D2 very quickly, we don't know if that will be the case in D3. And even so, just because they get to keep their gear in D2, they still lose their bag/stash loot, and there is still the opportunity cost of leveling a new character versus grinding or whatever else they might be doing.
As for it affecting average players more than experienced players, I don't really think that's the case. I don't feel it will widen the gap between the two and personally I think it will lessen the gap between the power gamer and the cautious player. Reason being, the cautious player is less likely to need the instant save and exit, as they are by definition, more cautious.
The opposing argument is that if it is perceived by enough players or prospective players that it's too easy to die, they game could lose a chunk of player-base. That could have an equal or potentially greater effect on the market.
It's an interesting debate.
Well this is where I think the balance for D2 comes into effect for me. In d2, it was SO easy to not die in "normal" situations. That was for 3 reasons:
1 you are faster than the enemies.
2 you can cast town portals instantly.
3 if you need to you can save and exit instantly.
What this means is that you cant balance the game around normal means because normal enemies beating on you will generally never kill you, because you can just run away, or cast a portal or save and exit. So for the game to actually have a fighting chance at killing you, they need to introduce monsters that can do a whole health bar's worth of damage in less time than the players reaction time + latency.
With the removal of instant save and exit alone, it changes a huge amount of the game. All of the sudden people dont have a 1 button instant invincibility. What that means is they need to worry less on killing people quickly, and more about balancing player / monster movement speeds and overall damage output.
Certainly this is all personal opinion, but I think if blizzard removed the cheese / bugs / instadeed monsters from D2 as is, the game would be far too easy, because most people can save and exit in a normal situation.
Sure you'd still have the exceptional situation, Fana/ES/Cursed frenzytaurs and stuff, but in general it would simply be too easy. With the removal of the instant save and exit, the same 'danger level' could be had in the game, by toning down some of the instant kill monsters, which I personally think would be a win win for everyone.
I just find it silly that the 2 best ways to keep your character alive aren't class skills at all, but macros.
Hmmmm, this is a tough one, because I can see both sides. Maybe make the 20 sec wait PVP only?
Work it exactly like it is in WoW.
Logout in a tavern == instant log out
Logout anywhere else == 20 second wait
What this means is that you cant balance the game around normal means because normal enemies beating on you will generally never kill you, because you can just run away, or cast a portal or save and exit. So for the game to actually have a fighting chance at killing you, they need to introduce monsters that can do a whole health bar's worth of damage in less time than the players reaction time + latency.
I disagree. The best way (particularly without D1 style chokepoints) is to throw more monsters than you could realistically handle. Zerg rushes are effective in SC not because zerglings are strong, but because you can send so many as to overwhelm most bases.
D1 style stunlock was also a great way to ensuring creatures had a chance of killing you :D
coldsong
10-07-2008, 05:27
all i know is, if they allow chickenhack to exist again, i wont be playing beyond last act of normal. no point wasting time in a game that is destroyed completed by a simple macro :( sad but true.
I disagree. The best way (particularly without D1 style chokepoints) is to throw more monsters than you could realistically handle. Zerg rushes are effective in SC not because zerglings are strong, but because you can send so many as to overwhelm most bases.
D1 style stunlock was also a great way to ensuring creatures had a chance of killing you :D
I think maybe you agree with me, becuase what I was saying is that with instant save and exit those tactics dont work because you can S&E out of them. That's why they arent the usual case for people dying in HC.
Shadowknife
10-07-2008, 05:43
I'm a bit torn on this.
In an ideal world, I'd like a delay in place that prevented instant exit from combat. Nothing too extreme, just a couple seconds. It would encourage some tactics and skills normally not seen when it's easy to charge into combat, knowing you can bail out at any second if you need to.
But realistically, I feel that save/exit saves many, many deaths due to lag. Would the gains of a delay overwrite the frustration of a lag death? I don't think so, and I don't see any other good alternate solution.
So all things being equal, I'd like it as is. But who knows, it's still pretty early to speculate.
But realistically, I feel that save/exit saves many, many deaths due to lag. Would the gains of a delay overwrite the frustration of a lag death? I don't think so, and I don't see any other good alternate solution.
So all things being equal, I'd like it as is. But who knows, it's still pretty early to speculate.
S&E doesn't really prevent deaths due to lag. Not many anyway.
I would be for a delay on S&E out of town like 5 seconds or so, iff (if and only if) there was a way to escape when there was excessive lag, maybe an option in game that boots you from a game instantly if your ping gets above a certain amount, IDK if this would work or be practical but lag deaths suck :)
S&E doesn't really prevent deaths due to lag. Not many anyway.
I'm not sure it's possible to quantify this. It depends how soon you detect lag, how far you are from the monsties etc.
I can't catagorically say that it has saved me but I can say that I have successfully exited games and survived where I have seen mob lock up occur.
IIRC its 15.000 ms for SC and 5.000 ms for HC in D2... obviously, with DII's pace, even the 5.000 ms for HC is an insta-death.
I would be for a delay on S&E out of town like 5 seconds or so, iff (if and only if) there was a way to escape when there was excessive lag, maybe an option in game that boots you from a game instantly if your ping gets above a certain amount, IDK if this would work or be practical but lag deaths suck :)
Shadowknife
10-07-2008, 19:06
I'm not sure it's possible to quantify this. It depends how soon you detect lag, how far you are from the monsties etc.
I can't catagorically say that it has saved me but I can say that I have successfully exited games and survived where I have seen mob lock up occur.
I thought pretty much anyone who played hardcore quickly learned to 'sense" when you hit a lag spike. You bail out of the game, rejoin, and half your life bulb is empty. Seemed to be a pretty common experience for me anyways.
I would be for a delay on S&E out of town like 5 seconds or so, iff (if and only if) there was a way to escape when there was excessive lag, maybe an option in game that boots you from a game instantly if your ping gets above a certain amount, IDK if this would work or be practical but lag deaths suck :)
If so people could just be ready to pull out the internet cord to instantly bail.
With that said I vote for instant Save&Exit but the character stays in the game for about 10-30 seconds.
IhatePindle
10-07-2008, 23:58
Save & Exit FTW, chicken on alwayzzzzz.
Yours truly - Uber kiddie haxor!!!
entranced
13-07-2008, 02:33
I'd vote "Aye" for the poll, in the sense that a way to nullify chickenhack needs to be implemented.
However, correct me if i'm wrong, but this seems to be only a HC issue. I doubt Blizz would change the save & exit system of the series just for a HC issue. HC seems to be just an afterthought. The lead designer or some such vip, when asked if there will be HC, said something like "We never discussed it, but i don't see why not". Never discussed HC? Scary thought for us HCers isn't it? It really is an afterthought.
But that's not necessarily a completely bad thing. As ExtraStrongFireEnchanted said (http://forums.diii.net/showpost.php?p=6576816&postcount=7) elsewhere:
So I believe game should be designed with SC in mind, and then provide HC mode, not the other way around. If it is tuned for safety of HC'ers, big part of 'hardcore' is lost.
I'd vote "Aye" for the poll, in the sense that a way to nullify chickenhack needs to be implemented.
However, correct me if i'm wrong, but this seems to be only a HC issue. I doubt Blizz would change the save & exit system of the series just for a HC issue. HC seems to be just an afterthought. The lead designer or some such vip, when asked if there will be HC, said something like "We never discussed it, but i don't see why not". Never discussed HC? Scary thought for us HCers isn't it? It really is an afterthought.
But that's not necessarily a completely bad thing. As ExtraStrongFireEnchanted said (http://forums.diii.net/showpost.php?p=6576816&postcount=7) elsewhere:
So I believe game should be designed with SC in mind, and then provide HC mode, not the other way around. If it is tuned for safety of HC'ers, big part of 'hardcore' is lost.
Well, the death penalty is also nullified in SC with no instant exit.
Aside from that, this is an instance where if you dont think about HC in your design you end up making the game significantly easier, not more of a challenge like it should be.
Hardcore will just be too bloody hard without instant logout through alt+f4. Come on guys, tell me how many of you have made a hardcore char to high levels D2 without (ab)using the save&exit system? Very few, and even those in the Single player tournaments.
I really love playing HC in groups in leveling games where I know that people are going to come in and try to PK me. I am also too cheap to buy a nice PC so I always had a problem with latency. If I can't exit quickly, I can't play this way. I'm not about to spend $1k or something on a new PC, that much money puts me 1/2 way to a new TIG. :thumbup:
When I was playing a lot of DII, I used altF4 often to exit. It would take forever for my computer to display the exit screen and allow me to pick the correct option.
I'm not sure why people want this change. Do you want other people's characters to die? Do you want other people to have more problems trying to play the game? Because if you don't want to exit quickly, you don't have to do it. Why do you care about chickenhack? I really could care less. Those people are just cheating themselves. They aren't cheating me.
Sorry, but I've seen very people in duels who save and exit, and I like the way the system is going now. It works for me. There are times when I need to get off QUICK. Besides, it still takes forever to actually load me back to the main screen because of my crappy comp.
stillman
22-08-2008, 07:18
How to solve the emergency situations for parents and the rest of us:
You use tp and the portal appears instantly. However, it appears in a random radius point of a circle 2 yards away from your chraracter. It could appear to the west, to the northeast, or anywhere 2 yards away from you as long as it's not in a river/tree/wall.
So situation 1: You're in maggot lev 3, no monsters around. The dishwasher is exploding or there is a knock at your door, you got to to stop palying. No problem--you make tp and run over to it in less than half a second. Now you're in town just in time to leave the computer and rescue the dishwasher or talk to the Mormons.
Situation 2: You are surrounded by a mob that is pommeling your poor WD into the earth. You make a tp. It is 2 yards behind you. You try to squirm over to it but alas, you soon find you're dead and lost your movement privaleges. HC is so intense and exciting.
S&E only works in town, which you can get to in half a second with your tp as long as you're not dead and the monsters aren't blocking it's random spot.
How to solve the lag problem without S&E outside of town:
All I can think of is a built in lag detector that either makes you invincible when there is lag, or teleports you back to the nearest safe pre-cleared area that is also out of AI range of all monsters, or boots your HC chr out of the game, or boots your chr to town instantly plus sets up a 100% safe tp in the nearest safe pre-cleared area.
How to fix SOME of the chicken, TPPK, or similar-type programs probelm:
Have a built in program that detects "faster than human button presses" and delete that players entire account.
Actually, Idk about that last one. Idk enough about hacks, programming, etc. But that's what I would do; crucify anyone who attempts. And lure them into it...let them use chicken for a bit then delete their account after they get a lev XX unique, etc.
MoUsE_WiZ
26-08-2008, 06:06
Traveling is again handled by waypoints as in Diablo 2. We thought about mounts, but when we designed the world, we decided there wouldn't be any need for them. The idea of town portals we wanted to reject, since from the viewpoint of being in the middle of a fight, it's very easy to abuse, simply disappearing. It just goes back to being the kind of thing we don't want. Players often go back to town more when they really need to. But if you give players the opportunity every two minutes to town portal, they'll take advantage of that and carry every last piece of loot, even worthless things, back to town effortlessly, which isn't very fun. That's why we wanted to move away from that. We also looked back on the original Diablo to get a feel for dungeons being difficult to escape from, but Diablo 2 never balanced this very well like we have now. We want the player not to be stuck in a dungeon forever, we want to provide intervals where they can go back. We don't want players to have to keep dropping items, but we also don't want them to be able to go back as often as they want like in Diablo 2. There are a lot of pros and cons and we're currently balancing it all. The removal of town portals is beginning to feel bad, because everyone was accustomed to it, but we're trying our best to find the right way to do this so that the game doesn't suffer for it.
An example of this, my favorite Diablo 2 example, Duriel, the boss of Act 2. He dealt massive damage, had huge amounts of health, inflicted freeze effects and is waiting directly at the entrance of an extremely small room. He's very brutal, but the only reason he was so difficult was because the player had to use town portals constantly, was always running away, drinking potions, etc., and it was almost frustrating. This is why we've taken care in how the health system has been changed. We want to avoid situations where a player is repeatedly using town portals and coming back until the boss is killed. This isn't a particularly fascinating way to do it. We want to create a system where the bosses are challenging without frustrating the player.
One thing we're trying with our waypoints is adding a "town portal" like ability to it. Previously in a Diablo 2 game, if a friend wanted to catch up, he'd have to yell "TP! TP!" and wait until someone portals them to where they are. This isn't a very good way to get players together, because it requires the other players to drop what they're doing to summon a portal in a safe spot. That's why we're allowing waypoints to teleport you directly to other players. The player steps on the waypoint, clicks the function "Teleport to friend" (this won't be the final name of the function, it'll certainly change) and immediately a list of other players in the game appears and he can click to teleport to them. This takes the load off the existing players who are already out playing and might be in the middle of a fight, and it also allows everyone to catch up. I know this is a fairly long answer. For all these features, we're just trying to decide whether the advantages of them outweighs any disadvantages, and then try and implement them.
Well, looks like that answers the portal question (to some degree). Not the S&E one, we'll still have to wait and see on that. I'm happy so far though =)
(find the whole interview translated on the diii.net mainpage, lots of info scattered in it, this is definitely the biggest new piece though)
Really, this is very simple.
Right now, save and exit means you press escape, and click "Save and Exit". The save and exit button is very large and right in the middle of the screen.
All that needs to be done is to change the menu. Buttons for s/e, options and other things could go on the side, and maps or stats could take up the center. Also, it could ask "Are you sure?" with a pop-up in the middle of the screen. The yes/no buttons could change their position just slightly, so that macros can't go by pointer position, and have some kind of random effect to make it much harder for macros to find them; say the buttons were orbs filled with smoke, fire, sloshing blood or something else. You could go so far as to have them be yes/no orbs that spawned from a random position on the screen and then fell and bounced around, slow enough to be easily clickable, but could still look interesting. This whole thing would work as a visual captcha, preventing bots and macros, also slowing people down enough that it is slightly harder to get out in the middle of a fight, and doing all of this without it being too hard or requiring hideous delays.
MoUsE_WiZ
29-08-2008, 06:35
visual captcha
Here's the thing, when people say "essentially a macro", they mean right now it COULD be macro'd, but it isn't.
What hacks like chicken do is send the packets that say you've just left the game for you. This is tough for Blizzard to pick up on because said hacks don't actually have to do anything beyond reading D2's memory space in order to work... the ones that are bound to a key rather than your HP total don't even have to do that.
So yeah, that sort of pseudo captcha wouldn't really work.
But here's the more important thing... it doesn't really matter if it's done via hacks or not. Instant S&E still allows for very quick escapes from dangerous situations making characters essentially invinsible unless taking massive damage. From what I'm reading of D3's design, monsters are going to be doing much less damage while making it more difficult to heal yourself. Instant S&E is even more of a god mode when monsters don't kill you instantly.
I'm suspecting we'll not have the ability to do it any more... if we can do it, I'm suspecting hardcore will be relatively pointless and possibly just not implemented.
Starving_Poet
29-08-2008, 20:29
Well, let's do a little hardcore math:
No PVP
+ No Instakill monsters with ridiculous resistances
+ No lag with the vainglorious Battle.net 2.... :crazyeyes:
-----------------------------------------------------
No death
One needs to ask why will you even need to save and exit?
MoUsE_WiZ
30-08-2008, 06:13
No PVP
+ No Instakill monsters with ridiculous resistances
+ No lag with the vainglorious Battle.net 2.... :crazyeyes:
-----------------------------------------------------
No death
One needs to ask why will you even need to save and exit?
1) There will be PvP, just not PK. It's final form has yet to be determined. Being able to S&E in the middle of any PvP in HC is ridiculous.
2) Because despite the lack of instant kill monsters, there will be no/greatly reduced ability to heal yourself infinitely&on demand... attrition is very likely to result in the desire to S&E from time to time.
3) lol. WoW lags, so will D3.
I agree though, it's sounding like the *need* for S&E will be greatly diminished. However the effects of having it in there sound like it'll be even more detrimental to the spirit of HC.
Starving_Poet
02-09-2008, 21:59
No, I agree with you. and, of course, by PVP I meant no non-consensual PVP.
It would be very interesting if they somehow change how S&E actually works in these PVP... arenas... or whatever it is they're making.
My post was more about breaking the diablo 2 hardcore mindset of hardcore as it.
The things that kill us outside of dumb mistakes are basically being removed (lag is of course tongue-in-cheek).
MoUsE_WiZ
12-10-2008, 11:28
So how about this:
Instant S&E whenever you want, but returning you unhealed to the approximate (dungeons *are* random afterall) area you exited from in your next game, complete with brand new monsters? Perhaps with a few seconds of invulnerability, or a few yards of gaurenteed no monsters.
First of all i want to mention that i've never played hardcore...
What is the challenge in hardcore mode when you dont care because whenever you are about to die you can insta save yourself? I always admired you HC players until i realized you didnt risk anything, you just S&E whenever something got tough.
/defensive stance
Nnoodles
14-10-2008, 11:29
I agree with the sentiment, not the implementation.
First of all "in and out of combat" is silly.
I'm in a dungeon fighting monsters, I'm in combat even if there isn't one pestering me ><
Secondly it creates extra issues, mobs evading and keeping you in combat for no good reason forcing you to run away randomly to accomplish things. Basically it just generally slows the game down.
Same with waiting 20 seconds to log out? WTF do I want to do nothing for 20 seconds for? It's lame and boring. It's like an entire meph run. D1&2 are action games and slowing things down that much to log out is silly.
Here's what I'd like to see:
1) Only allow log out in town. Someone alt+f4s outside of town, they time out as slowly as if their PC had crashed.
2) Take away portals so that you can't accidentally run out at the bottom of a very long dungeon, replace with an inherent skill.
3) Said skill should take ~7 seconds to cast. It should be castable with things beating on you (so long as they don't put you into recovery or whatever... cast times and push back are for slow paced games, this would be the only exception). Seven seconds is long enough in both previous diablo games that you either would have died or been in no danger, no need to artificially inflate the time to 20 seconds just because that's what it's like in WoW.
That's my opinion anyways.
Also - I'd have voted "aye" in the poll, except I'm getting the error that said poll is closed.
Also #2 - You stole my thread. But I guess that's ok.
The last thing i would want to see is cast timers on anything to do with diablo.. this is Diablo, not friggin WoW!! The ONLY thing they would need to change here is to limit the save and exit to towns. That would be something id be in favor for. Start puttin in cast timers and next thing u know well have priests following us around, barbarians on mechanostrider looking thingies and friggin withdoctors handing out soulstones to the "hardcore" ugh...
I think if there's a cooldown there may be a cast timer.
MoUsE_WiZ
14-10-2008, 20:36
The ONLY thing they would need to change here is to limit the save and exit to towns.
You realize that TPs are officially out of the game, right?
If S&E is limited to town you get the fun of running all the way back...
fatwisconsinguy
14-10-2008, 22:13
There are also no waypoints, we will have to wait and see how these "checkpoints" work.
Gigashadow
15-10-2008, 00:29
I wouldn't mind seeing S&E out, especially in SP. In SP I'd just leave auto saving... same goes for rapid TPing out of danger.
And, fatwisconscinguy, there are waypoints AND checkpoints and TP are not officially out.
First of all i want to mention that i've never played hardcore...
What is the challenge in hardcore mode when you dont care because whenever you are about to die you can insta save yourself? I always admired you HC players until i realized you didnt risk anything, you just S&E whenever something got tough.
/defensive stance
Probably in SC mode you never even noticed or cared when a lag spike lasted for more than a second. In HC mode you just might feel differently. Try it and find out! :thumbup:
fatwisconsinguy
15-10-2008, 05:18
Giga you have a source for WP being for sure in the game? I thought I read panel saying WPs were out along with TPs.
MoUsE_WiZ
15-10-2008, 06:59
TP are not officially out.
They're officially out in the sense that Blizzard employees have stated on the record in numerous places that they are not in the game for a very specific set of reasons, and nothing I've read/watched from Blizzcon yet has contradicted that. Some of it has reinforced it (eg the fact that TP scrolls did not drop, the discussion that they were considering making players start in the same zone as other players when joining games).
Anything is still obviously subject to change, however at this time, any discussion on S&E should probably take into account that portals are out of the game.
As for checkpoints/waypoints... checkpoints are most definitely in the game. They're not really pertinent to HC at the moment as they're for respawns. They could be used in conjunction with rejoining games where you left I suppose, with an exception being added to send you to the next nearest checkpoint if the last check point was town maybe.
Waypoints, or something like them, are also in the game from what I've gathered. At least it sounds as if you'll be able to travel from town to <random location x> via an instant sort of point and click interface. Possibly with a map, as in GW. And almost definitely to party member locations according to Blizzard. I don't recall seeing information on whether or not a similar system would exist for travel outside of towns, though it seems as if a misclick could be incredibly annoying if not.
Gigashadow
16-10-2008, 02:37
Giga you have a source for WP being for sure in the game?I'm not a news site. diii.net or dfans.com had it somewhere, not sure which, but it was legit, and the guy saying it sounded pretty final regarding waypoints...
I thought I read panel saying WPs were out along with TPs.From what I heard, they never properly and directly said that "WP's and TP's are out FOREVER". They may say that "at this stage of development..." (without saying exactly that) and what not. Things change every time, and you really need to keep track of blizz forums to see up to date info.
TP's are probably out. But still not 100%. WP's are nowhere near out.
GRaFFiKNaTuRE
16-10-2008, 02:45
if your computer couldn't handle diablo 2, you shouldn't be playing video games and you should get a better job
save and exit is for softies
Gigashadow
16-10-2008, 04:52
if your computer couldn't handle diablo 2, you shouldn't be playing video games and you should get a better jobSeems pretty random. I don't remember people here talking about system requirements of DII.
MoUsE_WiZ
16-10-2008, 06:16
Now for some pure speculation/reading perhaps far too much into a statement...
at the end of this (http://diablo3.battlenet.pl/portal/d3/1/99/Wywiad_Battlenetpl_z_Jayem_Wilsonem_i_Rayem_Gresko .html) interview they are discussing the issue of hacks. They admit that not only are they better prepared to deal with potential hacks, but also that they're actively designing their way out of them.
The example in the video is pickit... no more FFA drops = no more pickit issue.
You can see clear examples of this approach in WoW as well with the modability&power of the UI, and possibly the logout system.
Just some more hope that they'll be removing god-mode via chicken/s&e from the game with the same approach ~_~
MoUsE_WiZ
16-10-2008, 19:36
WP's are nowhere near out.
Q: Playing Diablo III you come to a place where it says “Checkpoint Reached”. Is this the same as a Waypoint?
A: This is more of an improvement on the old system, a checkpoint is a way to save progress. A difference is that you can’t teleport away from them, but you can jump TO any checkpoint. It’s easier, and in Diablo II you might run around for ages looking for the waypoint.
I guess I was mistaken about what checkpoints were for.
Gigashadow
16-10-2008, 20:59
DIII is currently going towards the same system as TQ...
Checkpoints - places where you have last been. In TQ, they are represented by rebirth fountains. You die, you get thrown at that checkpoint.
Waypoints are free-form travel points that are independent of where you left the game or whatever. You can't go to a checkpoint and teleport yourself to a different checkpoint. You CAN do that with a waypoint.
And I'm sure they may be toying with words here. Calling WP's checkpoints and the reverse... I guarantee you, DIII will have SOME form of getting back to town, be it WP's, TP's, or anything else, even checkpoints.
if your computer couldn't handle diablo 2, you shouldn't be playing video games and you should get a better job
save and exit is for softies
nohting wrong with save and quit in or out of combat.
you eventually develop a "6th sense" when it comes to playing hardcore mode, u know when its time to get out, or stay that bit longer in the lag spike.
d2 was never a top whack spec game, cus it didnt need to be - the new build doesnt look that demanding either, so lay off the trashing son
teh_Thrasher
04-12-2008, 06:57
actually there is something wrong with the save and exit system.
if u can get out of situations where u would die in .5 seconds with the push of a button and save ur self from having to remake a character (hardcore) then thats taking away the whole being able to survive aspect of hardcore.
with the chicken hack people could just go in all crazy like and if they take some dmg no worries cause their hack would catch them before they die.
timed exit or exiting only while "safe" is what i hope to see in d3.
"the new build doesnt look that demanding either, so lay off the trashing son" um have u seen the new video? it looks quite demanding actually specially if uve got 5 people in one game making a visual lightshow it would no doubt get laggy with a lower end pc.
1) if you hit a lag-spike, there's no reason to punish you further. If your vuris scanner deceides now is the time to start (and yes, you can disable those, but no, that is not a reason to give someone grief over), then you should be able to get out and fix it. If your OS wants to hog memory, then you should be able to get out. If you ran afoul of too many monsters and death is the only other option available, then you should be able to get out.
2) video-specs and such... People... if your idea of a usefull comment is that "if your pc sucks, get a better job" then you should really not be posting on this site. Not everyone is swimming in cash and if your pc cannot handle mroe than one player with a lot of effects, there should be no reason why you cannot retreat from the game. Easy as that. Nobody deserves flak because he lacks the money for something.
Regards,
Barry
MoUsE_WiZ
17-12-2008, 00:05
If you ran afoul of too many monsters and death is the only other option available, then you should be able to get out.
Why? HC (in general) is trivialized by exactly that. I know D3 isn't out yet, but Mythos and HG:L both had instant S&E... HG:L I didn't actually die once. Mythos I died twice before I stopped dying.
As for your list of other things; build better, play better, and those unknowns won't get you killed. All through S1 and most of S2 I was playing on a box that would cause D2 to throw assertion errors about once every 30 minutes or so. They would leave me in the game until I could:
-alt+tab
-click the error
-ctrl+alt+del
-find game.exe in the process list
-end task game.exe
-wait for it to end
I lost exactly 1 character to these frequent crashes that would leave me in games for close to 30 seconds, and that 1 death was avoidable if I had been playing better (eg not running too far ahead of my minions approaching classic hell CS with a 49 necro).
if your idea of a usefull comment is that "if your pc sucks, get a better job" then you should really not be posting on this site.
There has to be a limit somewhere; I'm not going to try to fire up Crysis at max setting on this box. When D3 comes out I'm doubly not going to try to fire it up on my old P3 box. If somebody's computer can't handle a game then they should probably not be playing that particular game, or at least not complaining that they can't play it as effectively as they'd like.
It's up to Blizzard to make sure that "minimum requirements" listed on a box can actually support the game in a playable way. If the listed requirements can't support the game then the error is with Blizzard. Otherwise there isn't really much else to say beyond get a better box.
If somebody *REALLY* wants to play the game with a box that can't support the game, SP is always (allegedly) an option too. No worrying about mass effects/summons. No worrying about the occaisional unavoidable death.
If I wanted a game that I could NOT turn off or leave whenever it tickled my fancy at the click of a button, I'd start carrying around a sword in real life and hacking people to bits.
With that being said, Diablo is a computer game. When I tell it to turn off or leave, I expect it to happen. If I am in the middle of a quest, then I should expect that entire quest to be reset and I have to start it over. That is the only penalty I'm willing to pay. Clicking on save/exit and waiting for some timer to expire before I can leave a game just seems silly and cumbersome to me.
Nimbostratus
17-12-2008, 22:19
I have to agree with Baranor. Never punish the player for things that happen outside of the game. I don't get all these "Oh, build around it" comments- how many builds CAN survive you essentially going AFK mid-battle? (hint: Not everyone starts out with godly gear and a great tanking merc)
How about instead of just forcing some annoying waiting period on players, have the game keep track of how many times the character has Saved and Exited while under x% health? Perhaps there could be some sort of icon or name suffix added for reaching certain levels with no low health S/Es. Or you could do the opposite and have a chicken icon appear next to people who S/E all the time at low health too. Heck, you could even add restrictions when you make a game; "no chickens allowed" :D
Edit: Why does the poll say it's closed when the closing date listed on it is in next year?
If you can't S&E quickly, you have to take fewer risks and/or overbuild your characters. It's just another way for the game to become less exciting, in my opinion.
I can understand that a lot of people who play HC like to set up plodding, careful game play with parties of people they trust. I prefer to be in games with lots of PKs and in dangerous situations where it's possible at any time to quickly become overwhelmed.
I've done 'zon builds with very low elemental resistance - sacrificed to improve shot speed. I've done a pike barb with almost all the points in strength. IMO the game is a lot less exciting when your character can't die quickly.
satheron
13-01-2009, 20:03
Only be allowed to exit outside of combat. Just like most other games out today.
/thread.
If you can't S&E quickly, you have to take fewer risks and/or overbuild your characters. It's just another way for the game to become less exciting, in my opinion.
I can understand that a lot of people who play HC like to set up plodding, careful game play with parties of people they trust. I prefer to be in games with lots of PKs and in dangerous situations where it's possible at any time to quickly become overwhelmed.
I've done 'zon builds with very low elemental resistance - sacrificed to improve shot speed. I've done a pike barb with almost all the points in strength. IMO the game is a lot less exciting when your character can't die quickly.
I don't really understand why people like you come to the HC forums. Don't take this too harsh, but it's as if you want to consider yourself good, and you see a loose correlation with that and hardcore, but you need to try and justify your not playing hardcore in some way to all of us so that you feel better about your not playing it or something.
There is nothing "slower paced" about hardcore. There are a lot of subtleties of hardcore i don't think are understandable until the game is played hardcore for a certain amount of time (I didn't understand them for a long time, actually).
I would say one of the fundamental points of hardcore though, is that unlike softcore you actually have to put some thought into your character, as opposed to softcore where you just use every gear slot for offensive power and then hope that you hit the enemy enough before they touch you.
For hardcore players, part of the fun is actually having to think about how to build a character.
And as for success probabilities, the probability of success in the meta game for sc is 100%. For HC it's much less, even though the probability of success in any given encounter is higher, the chance of death in the aggregate is much higher than the 0% chance of softcore failure.
I think 3-5 seconds until leave game would work OK in Diablo2. It is well balanced, because it isn't too much time if you want to leave a normal game after a run or after a trade, and also it isn't too less time if you want to retreat and also gives you an added risk to die in the middle of the battle.
In D3 no idea, but if it will be similar in survive tendency, 3-5 seconds would work very well covering most undesirable situations (lag, surrounded by dangerous mob of monsters and empty of mana, stomach ache, coughs, mothers or wife or husband, children).
I think it works OK, because it is like flip a coin: death or alive. And it is not just a given transit like in D2 is when the only thing you must do is to save&exit and you will remain free and alive 99% of the times.
If there is not this possibility and extremes come back and I must decide if I prefer to Save and Exit restricted to be out of combat only... I must say "aye". I prefer this.
I don't really understand why people like you come to the HC forums. Don't take this too harsh, but it's as if you want to consider yourself good, and you see a loose correlation with that and hardcore, but you need to try and justify your not playing hardcore in some way to all of us so that you feel better about your not playing it or something.
I don't think you understand. When I played DII, I ONLY played HC. The description above of my gameplay and character build styles was wholly in HC mode. I enjoy taking risks and playing characters that more "risk averse" people might consider only worthwhile building in SC mode.
I spent several years playing only HC. I lost a lot of characters, but I also had characters make it to level 99 and beat the game. Yes HC is more interesting than SC, but it can be even more interesting if you build some characters that aren't totally rock solid.
Get my point now?
Nighthavk
31-03-2009, 19:13
I'm Pro-Save&Exit.
I enjoy HC in diablo because I have to play the game differently when I play in HC. I see it as "Same old ****, but that health bar means something, you know." Currently, apart from FE in NM (bugged as hell, did 3,5k damage; imo NO damage should be able to get you from 100-0) nothing really bugs me. HC Moe currently is perfect.
ChickenHack issue
The argument about whether it will allow chicken hack or not is stupid. I don't care if someone else uses chicken hack!. It doesn't effect the economy of the game in realms and if someone else uses it, why the **** should I care? Linking it with PK is stupid - Game is failed if it allows for hacked PKing like it is today in the first place, and if tppk will still be present, the option of my tppker having chicken hack or not is the least of my concerns.
I shouldn't have to meta-game
I don't play high or drunk, of course. That's calling for a deeds screen. But when I order my dinner, I'd like to sit those 30 minutes playing my favourite game in my favourite mode and know that I can quit easily with a TP or S&E when my dinner comes. I shouldn't have to wait until I have ~1-2 hours uninterrupted just to kill some Mephisto equivalent boss, that is stupid.
To me: I enjoy playing my game in Hardcore mode. This is obviously different from Playing a Hardcore Game where it being Hardcore defines its existence. To me, game precedes its difficulty.
Illidan vs Mephisto
Another lame example. WoW is a MMO. Diablo is an action rpg, point 'n' click. Diablo is a passtime. WoW is an investment. There is a difference of genre. WoW is for people enjoying one, long gaming experience (3-4 hours of raiding, for example). Diablo is enjoying series of short games (3-4 hours of games longing from 5 minutes to an hour).
If I have to wait thirty minutes for my dinner to come, have it eaten, take a piss, get my pack of cigarettes ready, sit in front of computer, take the phone off, switch my cell off and only THEN be able to play hardcore, this isn't the game I enjoy. I did those all for WoW when I was raiding. Then I was unemployed, I had all the time I'd want and I was single. Now I want a game that I can play fast in short intervals. I live with my girlfriend who might just call me from the salon to ask me about the news today. If I were playing WoW, I'd pre-tell her "Darling, I have a raid for two hours, DND". And that also was the reasons why I could raid once or twice a week - you don't always have that time. I'd like to be able to play this game 24/7 between lunch breaks and what give you.
Hardcore Diablo as in difficulty and Hardcore Gaming as in full-devotion should NOT be mixed. First is a casual activity, second one is a full time sport. If you don't want to S&E, fine; don't do it. I've talked to people who willingly died to blood raven because they didn't want to tp or s&e. You can "psychologically" alter your gaming experience. But just because we two don't play the same game doesn't mean you should get to dictate how I should play MINE. How I don't "deserve" to play HC because "You don't get it, HC is not something to play before your dinner comes" then this is arrogance at it's best.
I repeat. You may not enjoy the option. Then don't opt for it. Don't be mad someone else does though.
This is a GAME. I stopped playing WoW and I don't intend to pick it up for this reason - it felt little as a game and more like a second job. I'd much rather play a GAME with upped difficulty for the adrenaline - not for absolute min-max gaming and leveling in blood moor until level 15.
I'm Pro-Save&Exit.
I enjoy HC in diablo because I have to play the game differently when I play in HC. I see it as "Same old ****, but that health bar means something, you know." Currently, apart from FE in NM (bugged as hell, did 3,5k damage; imo NO damage should be able to get you from 100-0) nothing really bugs me. HC Moe currently is perfect.
ChickenHack issue
The argument about whether it will allow chicken hack or not is stupid. I don't care if someone else uses chicken hack!. It doesn't effect the economy of the game in realms and if someone else uses it, why the **** should I care? Linking it with PK is stupid - Game is failed if it allows for hacked PKing like it is today in the first place, and if tppk will still be present, the option of my tppker having chicken hack or not is the least of my concerns.
I shouldn't have to meta-game
I don't play high or drunk, of course. That's calling for a deeds screen. But when I order my dinner, I'd like to sit those 30 minutes playing my favourite game in my favourite mode and know that I can quit easily with a TP or S&E when my dinner comes. I shouldn't have to wait until I have ~1-2 hours uninterrupted just to kill some Mephisto equivalent boss, that is stupid.
To me: I enjoy playing my game in Hardcore mode. This is obviously different from Playing a Hardcore Game where it being Hardcore defines its existence. To me, game precedes its difficulty.
Illidan vs Mephisto
Another lame example. WoW is a MMO. Diablo is an action rpg, point 'n' click. Diablo is a passtime. WoW is an investment. There is a difference of genre. WoW is for people enjoying one, long gaming experience (3-4 hours of raiding, for example). Diablo is enjoying series of short games (3-4 hours of games longing from 5 minutes to an hour).
If I have to wait thirty minutes for my dinner to come, have it eaten, take a piss, get my pack of cigarettes ready, sit in front of computer, take the phone off, switch my cell off and only THEN be able to play hardcore, this isn't the game I enjoy. I did those all for WoW when I was raiding. Then I was unemployed, I had all the time I'd want and I was single. Now I want a game that I can play fast in short intervals. I live with my girlfriend who might just call me from the salon to ask me about the news today. If I were playing WoW, I'd pre-tell her "Darling, I have a raid for two hours, DND". And that also was the reasons why I could raid once or twice a week - you don't always have that time. I'd like to be able to play this game 24/7 between lunch breaks and what give you.
Hardcore Diablo as in difficulty and Hardcore Gaming as in full-devotion should NOT be mixed. First is a casual activity, second one is a full time sport. If you don't want to S&E, fine; don't do it. I've talked to people who willingly died to blood raven because they didn't want to tp or s&e. You can "psychologically" alter your gaming experience. But just because we two don't play the same game doesn't mean you should get to dictate how I should play MINE. How I don't "deserve" to play HC because "You don't get it, HC is not something to play before your dinner comes" then this is arrogance at it's best.
I repeat. You may not enjoy the option. Then don't opt for it. Don't be mad someone else does though.
This is a GAME. I stopped playing WoW and I don't intend to pick it up for this reason - it felt little as a game and more like a second job. I'd much rather play a GAME with upped difficulty for the adrenaline - not for absolute min-max gaming and leveling in blood moor until level 15.
my hero!
Well written and exactly what i think about it
The argument about whether it will allow chicken hack or not is stupid. I don't care if someone else uses chicken hack!. It doesn't effect the economy of the game in realms and if someone else uses it, why the **** should I care? Linking it with PK is stupid - Game is failed if it allows for hacked PKing like it is today in the first place, and if tppk will still be present, the option of my tppker having chicken hack or not is the least of my concerns.
It does affect the economy, everytime someone exits with a hack from the game the items that would have been lost are not.. It is way too hard to die in the game anyways todays, "everyone" have their BO char around to give them double life because they are unable to beat the game without etc. (or the lame runeword)
1. Person that uses tppk cheats? Fail in the first place
2. Person that uses these cheats and have to use another cheat in order not to get beaten.. MULTI FAIL.
I've had some fun with my sorc sometimes when people without hostile come around me and try to do their pathetic frost bolts at me.. I go town and hostile them and those poor guys leave the game cuz they pee'd and had to tell mom to change their diapers.
Nighthavk
02-04-2009, 12:10
It does affect the economy, everytime someone exits with a hack from the game the items that would have been lost are not.It's not really significant to be honest. When we have a soj duped 100 times a day a few more zakarums of people not dying thanks to chicken hack start to look tiny.
Well for ladder it is still significant. The hc ladder doesn't look much hc when there is so few dead. Looking at some old pre-lod ladders.. there was huge amount of dead people.
HegemonKhan
05-04-2009, 06:55
i never liked the death thing (lag and desync being the main cause/reason), instead they should simply keep a record of how many times u die instead. exact same effect, and it doesn't mean all that time u spent playing the character goes to waste.
err this isn't quite the right thread for this...my bad for posting this (as it's a bit off topic).
TheGarden
05-04-2009, 07:49
In my opinion all you guys are reading far too much into this. Just because the option to instant save/exit might be there, doesn't mean you have to use it. Chicken hack, same deal. It's for personal use and it won't be implemented in the actual game, so if any chicken wants to use it, that's THEIR problem.
The D2 version is better than D1. When you killed a monster in D1, you knew you'd never see it again. In D2 they respawn after save/exit. I guess the Burning Hells learnt to refresh their own. Simple enough, they can just stick with that and focus on far more important stuff.
Why should Blizzard waste time looking into something this insignificant instead of getting the game over n done with? They've already wasted far too much time on the stupid Archivist prank (they were actually working on it since February???)
i think d2's system was ok; most experienced players knew what situations/battles could be bad before they even started. also, afk time happens alot :P
In my opinion all you guys are reading far too much into this. Just because the option to instant save/exit might be there, doesn't mean you have to use it. Chicken hack, same deal. It's for personal use and it won't be implemented in the actual game, so if any chicken wants to use it, that's THEIR problem.
No its not, its also my problem. A guy higher than me in ladder uses a chicken hack and doesn't die from certain death is my problem. If he died I would go past him in no time and it would take him a lot of time to get back to those levels. Thats just one example.
On the other hand save & exit saved me yday in D2.. I got huge lag.. the game didn't response to anything and I was surrounded by monsters. I did a save & exit after a couple of seconds and when I entered a new game I had 250 hp out of 2800. But I hope D3 has better servers and such :) Maybe even somekind of rollback system if you die to timeout and lag so you would go back by 30minutes.
Endarire
05-05-2009, 01:12
I'm of the crowd that believes if your reflexes are fast enough and luck is with you, you should be able to alt-F4 to save yourself and portal anytime.
I'm of the crowd that believes if your reflexes are fast enough and luck is with you, you should be able to alt-F4 to save yourself and portal anytime.
I believe in D3 situations where you need to alt+f4 or save&exit are more rare than in D2. D2 have been made hard by creating monsters and abilities that can take your hp down very quickly and only way to prevent death is full rejus or leaving the game.
In D3 we can have skills that give you temporary protection against damage and this way you can deal with tougher abilities every now and then.. But the point is that some players might not realize to use them in situations that they are really needed so they have more chance to die in those situations than the ones that really know when to use what skills.
I have never understood how hardcore is hardcore, don't everyone just use town portals like crazy and save&exit, almost making it exactly like soft-core? What's hardcore about that? I always wanted to know. lol
ZappaFan
10-06-2009, 15:23
I have never understood how hardcore is hardcore, don't everyone just use town portals like crazy and save&exit, almost making it exactly like soft-core? What's hardcore about that? I always wanted to know. lol
Oh goodness there are all kinds of ways to die quickly and unexpectedly in Diablo 2. My last HC death happened in NM Baal's throne room, I was wacking away with my Frenzy Barb at the 2nd wave of Baal's minions and one of them resurrected an Oblivion Knight that I had killed when I cleared the room upon entering (killed him originally safely using Berzerk). There was a very slight lag and I was IM'd before I even knew what happened and BAM I was dead in the blink of an eye. Careless on my part because I know full well that the 2nd wave will resurrect already killed monsters. But that's the way it goes.
Lag alone is responsible for many deaths. Save & Exit or TP doesn't always work when you're lagged.
Not to mention the FE/LE bug, doll explosions, etc.
You can be the most careful and slow playing person in the world, and you may go a long time between deaths, but sooner or later the Deeds screen is going to kick you in the butt when you least expect it.
And that is part of the rush of playing HC. :)
You die in Softcore and it's not really a remarkable experience, more of an annoyance. But when you die in Hardcore, even when you have loot and can save the items you are wearing, you still lose your merc's gear and anything in your stash and inventory. Bye bye torch, anni, etc., and probably some nice charms that you'd collected if the character is very high at all. That's a bit of a sting. Deaths stand out in that instance.
I would like to follow up Zappa's post by pointing out that BECAUSE OF instant TPs / S&E the only real way to die is "instant death" monsters (that Zappa described for the most part.)
While some people like the insta death monsters (presumably because without them hardcore wouldn't be very hard) I tend to think they exemplify the problem presented by instant exiting, that is, if instant exiting is in the game, for blizzard to be able to kill people the only thing they will be able to resort to are monsters that can "1shot" players, which isn't exactly my idea of strategy or tactics.
Removing instant exits also removes the necessity for these bugged / cheap instant death monsters, and would allow for more strategy and skill going into how you plan out an attack and while you are attacking, instead of simply stopping everything every time you see a boss, checking to see if he's one of the nasty mods, and running around like a chicken while your merc kills him, or something similar, because you know 1 shot will kill you.
KingOfKings
24-08-2009, 11:48
If Health globes play a major role in how you heal yourself then the Save & Exit might be crucial, or else we might end up with a Hardcore mode with ultra-safe gaming, instead of a possibly ruthless adrenaline fueled nightmare.
And besides, noone wants to watch their character about to die for 10 seconds as the timer counts down before they exit. :)
you said it all my friend, narc you are aweseom!
vBulletin® v3.8.4, Copyright ©2000-2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.