1.10 skill synergy going to make a return?

[nSin]

Everyone who played d2 1.10+ knows that the entire system got overhauled. What I'm wondering mostly is, was this a move by a single person in the blizzard company or was this a design choice that most of the team stood behind? No need for definitive answers here, but it's interesting. Mostly because I felt like forced synergies changed the game for the better in D2. Being very powerful and specialized vs being a jack of all trades

[Merick]

It's my understanding that 1.10 was all done by one or two guys. I like them too, but I doubt we'll see them in D3.

[phool]

I'm confident synergies will make it into D3, synergies improved D2's replay value massively.

[Cdnexpat]

I'm not so sure I like synergies. I sort of like the idea that you can build a character that can handle all situations. IMHO D2 hybrids tended to be weak without really good gear and pure builds often ended up with large area's they couldn't do anything with. I guess I like the jack of all trades idea better.

Edit maybe the way to go would be no immunes (hard immunes) in single player but start allowing more and more in multiplayer.

[Nimbostratus]

I think that synergies should exist, but be massively toned down. I hate how very few skills can stand by themselves and be able to kill things in 1.10+. If they were changed to like 1% per point, that would be nice. Optional power boost, but not really that important.

[jamesisbest]

I don't like how synergies nerfed some builds and made other builds amazing. I definately felt the barbarian was the most nerfed because he got no useful synergies. I think if they implement it better be there from the beginning. I don't think synergies will really be necessary with their current design though. Besides Blizzard wanted this to be more than a 1 skill wonder so I'm sure they are going to try to force people into using a variety of skills this time around.

[Arakhine]

I really hate what synergies did to the game: they removed a lot of flexibility/character customizeability. Before, you had a lot of skills to choose from and could pick 4-5 to max. This obviously left you with a decent selection of choices. Nowadays, you pick at most 2 skills, and the synergies and mandatory 1-point-wonders eat all your skill points. Build variety consists merely of whether you have skill A's or skill B's synergies maxed.

That said, there's nothing wrong with synergies per se, if they are less skill-point-intensive. Of if several weak skills versus one strong skill is something you actually _decide_.

[5zigen]

Synergies were a double edged sword in D2.

They made more skills overall viable endgame, but you traded that viability for a decrease in character variability.

Let me explain.

In Pre-1.10 it took 20 points to max almost any skill, let's take for example frozen arrow. Post 1.10 it took 40 points to max frozen arrow from a damage point of view. There are skills that virtually could not be maxed, like any of the bone damage skills.

What this resulted in is characters that were much more focused, because going without synergies for many skills was difficult if not impossible, It really lead to characters that were literally 1 (or sometimes two) trick ponies.

While there were slightly more usable skills, almost every build saw it's usable skills decreased with the advent of synergies.

Thus, I think synergies aren't really a good thing and I sort of doubt we'll see them. Another reason I doubt we'll see synergies is because they arent going with the 20 points per skill model this time.

I know some people loved synergies, but in reality they killed off almost as many builds as they created, and good skill design could have eliminated the necessity for synergies entirely.

I know it's cool to hate on HGL right now (hell, I do it a lot), but one of the things I think would be excellent would be to borrow one aspect of their skill system. The low level skills gain in power as your character levels and gain in effect (and power, potentially) as you invest in the skill.

Something like this could easily solve the problem of synergies, and it would be fairly easy to balance.

Just make the higher level skills only nominally better than the low level skills, when both skills are maxed out for a given character level, and make the lower level skill take slightly more points to max, to make up for the (presumed) lack of prerequisite skills to get the low level skill.

Then just add in the normal D2 skills, focus on having lot's of skills that all play and feel different, give people enough points to max between 5 and 7 skills, and just go from there.

[Leohappy]

i think synergies are a useful addition, because it made low level skills actually useful this time around. pre-1.10, people were saving points only to boost their level 30 skills. which made 3/4s of the skill tree useless. nobody wants to invest into skills that are going to be obsolete as soon as they hit 30.

now you can have a lightning sorc which will use charged bolts, lightning, chain lightning and nova. now that's a lot of variety right there. skills from levels 1-30, which are all being useful.

[smartdot]

because of the fact that there's a hotbar in the game, im inclined to believe that there will not be synergies, or at none that eat 60+ skill points. I think blizzard is trying to get people to combine skills in interesting waysas opposed to just focusing on one. For instance using a barb you could charge, use the warcray stun, cleave abit, then ww, then leap out. or in the wd case, you could zombie wall, raise dog things on other side, firebomb/locust swarm, dog explosion.

[ThulRasha]

With a low maximum rank on skills, I doubt there will be synergies this time.

[phool]

i think synergies are a useful addition, because it made low level skills actually useful this time around. pre-1.10, people were saving points only to boost their level 30 skills. which made 3/4s of the skill tree useless. nobody wants to invest into skills that are going to be obsolete as soon as they hit 30.

now you can have a lightning sorc which will use charged bolts, lightning, chain lightning and nova. now that's a lot of variety right there. skills from levels 1-30, which are all being useful.

I agree. I think the way to sort this out is by scaling skill stats with player level as well as skill level, which allows more early accessed skills to be end game viable beyond 1 point wonder utilities. Along with this, synergies should continue to exist, but be toned down considerably to a scale along the lines of Lightning Fury (dedicating your char to that 1 skill would make for around doubling your damage with that skill).

[Thunderchild]

While synergies were really cool they had a side effect- you -needed- them in order to have a decent skill working for you.
Prior to synergies, some skills were powerful enough without the need to max out their synergies- but post v 1.10...
Basically, you needed to spend a hell of a lot more skill points in order to make a single branch work decently- and that was extremely limiting- because all the immunities made sure you needed a hell of alot more diversity in your arsenal.

Synergies are cool, but it would be refreshing to see lv 1 skills being used in endgame for instance- the fact that you put points into say... bone teeth for the synergies doesn't mean it's a useful skill, you just put points there for the synergies. They turned it into a passive bonus, that's all.

[Jaydm]

I do not think that synergies will make a return in D3. They seemed like an attempt to spice up D2 when it was going down, and it did for a while, until everyone realized it pretty much made original builds obsolete.

[lothars]

I do not think that synergies will make a return in D3. They seemed like an attempt to spice up D2 when it was going down, and it did for a while, until everyone realized it pretty much made original builds obsolete.

I disagree I actually think that Synergies make original builds much better because it gives you more options of increasing damage for them as well as it doesn't have to make each build so one dimensional

I really hope that there's some type of Synergies in D3 because i think that it adds alot to the game.

[5zigen]

I disagree I actually think that Synergies make original builds much better because it gives you more options of increasing damage for them as well as it doesn't have to make each build so one dimensional

I really hope that there's some type of Synergies in D3 because i think that it adds alot to the game.

It generally made builds much more 1 dimensional actually.

[kavlor]

More passives could give the same effect as Synergies except unlike D2 passives might have several bonuses and by not needing to have 20 in every skill it wont eat up all your points.

[nSin]

It generally made builds much more 1 dimensional actually.

The amount of viable builds for each class went up by a lot because of synergies.

[5zigen]

The amount of viable builds for each class went up by a lot because of synergies.

I dont know about that.

Take the Sorceress for example, the synergies essentially completely destroyed any archmage build (build using all 3 trees).

I think what you mean is that it made more skills viable, but it didn't increase the variety of builds significantly or at all necessarily. And in the case of the amazon it didnt really make any new builds viable at all, but it did remove the mageazon type almost completely.

The idea of synergies was cool, that you could invest in early skills and not have those points be wasted. The problem was though, that the points you invested in early skills werent ever used necessarily past the first 30 levels, they were just there to buff your later skills. This left you with 1 or 2 uberskills and that was it.

[konfeta]

"Archmage" builds were about as varied as armadillos. Face it, pre-synergies variety was crap because most of the skills were crap. You either got the good skills or you sucked. The synergy addition increase the actual amount of good builds for every class.

[AxlStrife]

I always thought synergies were added as a result of increased monster health/difficulty.

For 1.00 I don't think synergies will be in D3 (Mighty Ducks) simply because of the focus on using skills to get out of situations. With that, you will be forced to use multiple skill sets depending on the situation instead of "Hammer, hammer, hammer, loot."

EDIT: First post in about 2 months.

[RedawgTS]

If synergies make it into D3, they will be markedly different from those in D2. D2's synergies were a hack, something tacked on afterwards. Besides, since we know next to nothing about the D3's skill system we don't know whether synergies will help make or break the system.

[TheSakari]

I'd be willing to bet that synergies are the last thing on the developers minds right now...

[nSin]

I dont know about that.

Take the Sorceress for example, the synergies essentially completely destroyed any archmage build (build using all 3 trees).

I think what you mean is that it made more skills viable, but it didn't increase the variety of builds significantly or at all necessarily. And in the case of the amazon it didnt really make any new builds viable at all, but it did remove the mageazon type almost completely.

The idea of synergies was cool, that you could invest in early skills and not have those points be wasted. The problem was though, that the points you invested in early skills werent ever used necessarily past the first 30 levels, they were just there to buff your later skills. This left you with 1 or 2 uberskills and that was it.

It was entirely senseless to do anything else then using an archmage build. Pick one good skill from each tree and just max those.

Take the necromancer, Bone Spear, Bone Spirit, Teeth, Bone Prison and Bone Wall, all synergized, all were awesome skills with synergies. Charged Strike/Lightnight Strike and Lightning Fury were all awesome together as well. The Firebolt/Fireball/Meteor synergy gave you 3 viable skills that each had its use in different situations.

That's what synergies did, they made low level skills viable later on.

Without synergies you def. had "best" builds, after synergy you had builds that excelled at one thing but had weaknesses elsewhere.

Why would you ever not play an amazon with Multishot, Lightning Fury and Guided Arrow pre-1.10? Why would you not go Orb Nova pre-1.10? Just to be different, not to be effective.

[Hamslice]

It was entirely senseless to do anything else then using an archmage build. Pick one good skill from each tree and just max those.

Take the necromancer, Bone Spear, Bone Spirit, Teeth, Bone Prison and Bone Wall, all synergized, all were awesome skills with synergies. Charged Strike/Lightnight Strike and Lightning Fury were all awesome together as well. The Firebolt/Fireball/Meteor synergy gave you 3 viable skills that each had its use in different situations.

That's what synergies did, they made low level skills viable later on.

Without synergies you def. had "best" builds, after synergy you had builds that excelled at one thing but had weaknesses elsewhere.

Why would you ever not play an amazon with Multishot, Lightning Fury and Guided Arrow pre-1.10? Why would you not go Orb Nova pre-1.10? Just to be different, not to be effective.

Exactly. Essentially, synergies made it possible for people to bother maxing skills other than the 30pt talent in each tree. Christ, the necromancer went from being essentially nothing but iron maiden + blood golem to having an extremely viable skeleton army, several poisonmancer builds, and an extremely viable bone-caster alternative in which one could focus on many different spells.

Synergies allowed for many more niche builds, rather than everyone maxing the exact same skills. Granted, there are still cookie-cutter builds abound, but at least now you have other options that won't completely gimp your character. There are several viable builds for every class where there essentially used to be only one.

[Brother Laz]

synergies improved D2's replay value massively.

The amount of viable builds for each class went up by a lot because of synergies.

Yeah, because there are now a lot more skills that do huge damage. This has nothing to do with synergies because they could just increase their damage instead.

Synergies were a band-aid to a poor system where lower level skills strictly sucked. If they, I dunno, make low level skills actually better at something than higher level skills, synergies would be obsolete.

I know, you can't do that when people max them at character level 21. So I'd suggest a scaling skill level cap that grows as your character goes up in level, like in Hellgate (and Median).

......

Synergies also kill build variety because you need to spend so much points to make your attack skill good that you don't have any left. Instead of a skeleton army with Bone Spirit support and some curses, you now need 80 points for Bone Spirit alone. Lol.

[phool]

When you have, say, an orb-nova hybrid, gameplay is a lot shallower than, say, a pure lightning sorc. The former one is pretty simple; nova for everything except highly LR monsters and solitary monsters. The latter is making a choice between 3 equally powerful, but situational, skills - charged bolt, lightning, chain lightning - that require more indepth and frequent reassessment of the situation, and makes for more frantic gameplay. It's beneficial for gameplay for it to be worthwhile investing points in more than simply the 1 overall best skill per element.

Yeah, because there are now a lot more skills that do huge damage. This has nothing to do with synergies because they could just increase their damage instead.

Indeed, the D2 1.10+ situation is not ideal but it is an improvement on D2 <1.10. My suggestion tries to deal with the same issue alternatively to yours.

I think the way to sort this out is by scaling skill stats with player level as well as skill level, which allows more early accessed skills to be end game viable beyond 1 point wonder utilities. Along with this, synergies should continue to exist, but be toned down considerably to a scale along the lines of Lightning Fury (dedicating your char to that 1 skill would make for around doubling your damage with that skill).

I don't like the HGL system though, there's a high risk of forcing players to stockpile skill points until getting access to desired.

[Brother Laz]

When you have, say, an orb-nova hybrid, gameplay is a lot shallower than, say, a pure lightning sorc. The former one is pretty simple; nova for everything except highly LR monsters and solitary monsters. The latter is making a choice between 3 equally powerful, but situational, skills - charged bolt, lightning, chain lightning - that require more indepth and frequent reassessment of the situation, and makes for more frantic gameplay.

You're talking about classic D2, are you?

I don't see the difference between putting points in three lightning skills and putting points into a fire, lightning and cold skill... other than the fact that you no longer have a choice: if you want to use Bone Spirit, then you must put your points into Bone Spear and not something else like Iron Golem.

You get nicely pigeonholed into a specific skill build. I want to use Bone Spirit and Iron Golem without sucking at the former, dammit!

I don't like the HGL system though, there's a high risk of forcing players to stockpile skill points until getting access to desired.

Stockpiling points is not a problem. Why would it be a problem?

[phool]

In HGL it's not too much of a dealbreaker because you can get by happily for a long time on 1 pt in pre-reqs, partially due to how the first skill point tends to be a lot stronger than the next few. In D2 if you want to make a 1.07 orb sorc gameplay til 30 is painstaking, and I don't believe it should have to be. Either way, having to choose between gimping themselves short term or long term isn't a choice I feel players should be required to make.

I don't see the difference between putting points in three lightning skills and putting points into a fire, lightning and cold skill... other than the fact that you no longer have a choice: if you want to use Bone Spirit, then you must put your points into Bone Spear and not something else like Iron Golem.

A skill using CL's mechanic in one tree and lightning's in another is fine, though I do like that players can make the choice between optimised but situational damage or not. They should just be toned down to make it a more balanced choice.

[yalthar]

Yeah I agree that synergies in D2 were a hack.
As pointed out before having to save your skillpoints for the lvl 30 uber skills really sucked - how many people have not seen their brand new sorceress suck at higher levels just because they invested skillpoints in glacial spike to make it through the game at lower levels? I believe that when you level up there should be a reward, other than just increased hitpoints, mana and attributes...
Synergies the D2 way also kinda sucked;p The most obvious example of course is that it's impossible to make a viable archmage/trielementalist sorceress.

Building your character as you go should never be wrong.
I hope the diverse use of skills in the gameplay video isn't just marketing, but that it's actually the way you will want to play the game - learn as many new skills as you can whenever they become available to you. Wow tries to solve the problem in a nice way with talents - it's not perfect but I believe it would be worth it to steal a few ideas there.

Then again totally open skill development like D1 ... hm.... what do you think? Everybody would just max out any skill they could and all builds would be the same aside from gear.

[Mcwhopper]

If there are no synergies: The following will happen:

We will all save skill points for the latest couple of skills, just as we did in pre 1.10. We just max out those usefull level 30 skills and leave the rest.

Synergies means you can actually use skills that become available before the end game without gimping yourself. It's one of the best ideas they ever thought up. How it should be implemented is another thing, as long as there will be plenty of viable builds its fine by me :)

[Brother Laz]

How about... I dunno... making low level skills actually usable at low level with 1 point?

Also, you know there are staves that add +3 to skills and can easily be bought (level 4 GS is much more tolerable), but no one uses them because LOLOL STAEVS. Sigh.

[Machina]

I quite liked the synergies that were introduced to D2. It added a whole new dimension to the game and introduced a whole new raft of viable builds (as well as removing some of course).

Turning to whether or not they should be in D3 is another question though. I don't really mind either way but if they decided not to put them in initially they would always have the option to do it in the future, and in so doing add more variety to the game as it became a tad stale over the years (just as they did with D2).

Either way I'm sure Blizzard will make a good skill system for D3 and leave their options open for future changes.