View Full Version : Anyone else think the Barb is over the top?
I mean while watching the gameplay trailer I got the impression I was watching a demo for an arcade game or a Gods of War expansion. One of the things I always liked about Diablo was its ability to find a believable median between realism and fantasy. D3's barb seems to lean too heavily towards fantasy and over-the-top. I'm hoping they tone it down a bit in the final release.
Widukind
03-07-2008, 00:47
Yeah, it's a bit over the top, but I don't see it as a bad thing. I allways thought Diablo II's skills were a little underwhelming. A skill like 'Fist of the Heavens' didn't quite live up to it's name if you ask me...
How is your combat engine being compared to a game universally praised for it's awesome combat like God of War a bad thing? As for the realism part, Diablo II had a lot of ludicrous looking skills, but no one seems to care. I think it's just a matter of getting used to.
I remember Sorc skill: "Thunderstorm". It was a single weird "BOING!" sound and a lone sprite going down on a monster avery 10 seconds or so. THUNDERSTORM! ^_^
Apocalypse
03-07-2008, 03:19
i think the barb looked over the top cause he was overpowered for the demo. it was clear that the vid was entirely scripted and they were just trying to show some things off. i would not really look too much into it yet
Yes, of course. I agree with Apocalypse. You will notice that their exp bar hardly, if at all, moves during the course of the gameplay trailer. The barbarian was obviously pretty tripped out for the area he was in, and all they wanted to do was showcase his array of skills.
In all, I believe you are mistaking newer, more fantasy-like special effects and graphics as over the top, when compared to the oldschool style of D2...mistakenly taken as more "realistic". The element of fantasy between D2 and D3 remains unchanged.
i think the barb looked over the top cause he was overpowered for the demo. it was clear that the vid was entirely scripted and they were just trying to show some things off. i would not really look too much into it yet
Indeed. I watched the video fully expecting either the chars to be decked out in above average gear, or the monsters to be toned down to below average stats. In the final release the monsters should hopefully be alot tougher.
StreetShark
03-07-2008, 05:18
The barb will be overpowered when the game releases. Why you might ask? Because he's the flagship of Diablo now, he's the main man of the series. Their making him the focal point. He's easy to play, powerful, and a huge draw for newbie players and teens who want to bash things. He will be stronger than people want him to be, but thats to us barbarian lovers benefit.
smartdot
03-07-2008, 05:22
d3 is based around barb? Source?
What makes you say that the Barb is the focal point? I mean the Witch Doctor had just as much face time in the gameplay video as the Barb did. I personally liked that they showed that the Barb would have more of a crowd killing focus in D3. The one thing that drove me nuts in D2 when it comes to the Barb is that he couldn't kill as quickly as basically every other class.
Nope, not over the top. He's a bashing-crashing-smashing class; his skills better intimidate and show lots of activity.
Also, we haven't seen the other classes yet. I'll put him at middle until I see the Archer/Rogue or Sorceress.
havedeath
03-07-2008, 05:56
Are you kidding me?? Over the top?? Do you want the boring Diablo II Generic swing animations and clunky isometric movement as you see the same animation over and over again? I love how brutal the new combat is for the barbarian and the new skills look so much more fun and useful and we've only seen a handful of them..
i think monster damage was toned down. when the evil buffalo charged the WD it didn't hurt him much.
ExtraStrongFireEnchanted
03-07-2008, 10:23
Bring your 30+ level barb to D2 act1 normal and report your findings on balance.
ESFE - exactly. Blizzard aren't going to show their character getting whipped in the gameplay demo. :D
PontifulGC
03-07-2008, 18:28
I remember Sorc skill: "Thunderstorm". It was a single weird "BOING!" sound and a lone sprite going down on a monster avery 10 seconds or so. THUNDERSTORM! ^_^
LOL yes!
I thought the same thing. zip. zip.... zip.. Wtf is that? Oh thats my thunderstorm spell. Uh. ok. zip. zip. It's um great! :whistling:
It hurt stuff and was super useful, it just was pathetic looking.
Yeah, I do agree that barbarian is very console looking and kiddie in his super skills. Looks like asian 1990's game designers who cant get enough of street fighter got frustrated by realism and amped the barbs skills. I do think he looks good though. just kiddie like. and we all know that kids play diablo1 and 2! right? i am sure 14 year olds were playing it a lot when they were being bottle fed and couldnt talk! We must appeal to them! :thumbup:
I still think it looks heaps better than retardo-mundo WDoctor. Notice how small this forum is?? People are pleased! I think barb overall looks like a win.
the necro nullification shows a lack of business sense and poor designers. It is like forgetting that the independent party exists and has millions of voters during a voting year, thats what removing necro and keeping barbs is like.
overall, this will be a small forum due to decently pleased veterans.
Apocalypse
03-07-2008, 19:40
the necro nullification shows a lack of business sense and poor designers. It is like forgetting that the independent party exists and has millions of voters during a voting year, thats what removing necro and keeping barbs is like.
you are right they probably should have just made 5 all new characters so people would not cry.
Funkopotamus
03-07-2008, 19:54
I think the over the top part was smashing the ground with his fists and making shock waves across half the screen. But yeah, guessing/hoping it was a ranked up skill, and I know those were some weak monsters.
Zarniwoop
03-07-2008, 20:30
One of the things I like least about D2, is it doesn't really express how powerful you are graphically. My javazon (last ladder) would kill baal in seconds. But, it just looked like "poke, poke, poke,..."....
Barbarian was simply outstanding. I won't say the same for WD, but I'm sure hopeful that the barbarian level is what they are shooting for with all characters.
lionheart
03-07-2008, 20:39
I thought he was good. He is supposed to be a power house type of character. Plus considering the fact that it took 4 players to kill the siege monster ( dont remember the exact name ) and they said he was not even a boss of sorts, i better hope they make him strong
lukefojut
03-07-2008, 21:27
I thought he looked absoloutely great - there is no point whatsoever in toning down a game as full of fantasy violence and malevolence as Diablo x!
Cast_Raider
04-07-2008, 00:55
He looked great, much better than the goofy looking witch doctor.
I would make one change though. When he pounds the ground, blood goes gushing out of zombies. Uhh, no. Axes do that. Swords and hammers do too. But a shockwave? Come on, it just stuns them.
I guess I don't want to see so much gore flying around that it becomes mundane and unremarkable. Admittedly, I'm being nitpicky.
I see I'm definitely in the minority here lol. I dunno, I was referring to the whole smashing the ground and schtuff. But I suppose you're right, I'm too used to D2's graphics and they used a beefed up character in the trailer.
PontifulGC
04-07-2008, 07:15
I really like d2's graphics. just sharpen them up for 1920x1200, actually have a company patch the game and not allow its employees to make cash off of duping/hacks, and bam, diii wouldnt be so much needed.
No such Thing.
d3 is based around barb? Source?
D1
Bring in more over the top.The game should be fun to play not just about item hunting.Im not sure just how much pure physics in the game will allow you to kill but I like the Idea(especially if the power of your skills influences it).
Everybody says the barb was outlevelling the demo and that it was done on purpose, but then why is the end demo monster killing him?
Everybody says the barb was outlevelling the demo and that it was done on purpose, but then why is the end demo monster killing him?
Because they said they wanted to end the demo with a real fight?
ExtraStrongFireEnchanted
04-07-2008, 18:36
I think they wanted to show the death fatality. The loot chest-trap was rigged to give better loot than one could expect, so last mob could have been scripted to kill someone near the end of the fight.
There are plenty of arguments supporting "he was out leveling the place" case. A few of them.
1) his exp bar was barely moving.
2) he got way to many skills for the first act.
3) Those berserkers (?) were said to deal massive damage, while the barb took maybe 1/4 health hit. Massive in my book is taking more than 1/2 of health. Not sure about the values on this one, but I didn't had the "oh **** careful man you are about to die" when a few of them were smashing the barb.
4) His WW hit were 1 shotting most of the mobs.
Psycroptic
05-07-2008, 00:48
WW is a high level skill and didn't look over the top at all. Leap attack is also a high skill, and looked great. Only the magic hammer thing and ground stomp looked a bit....warcrafty/over the top.
AlmostInfinity
05-07-2008, 01:45
The Barb does seem more flashy than before. Than again the barb had a whole bunch of plain animations in dii. When I first saw the demo, I thought to myself: Kratos? How did you get out of my PS2? I am excited that the barb gets more lovin in the visual department and some crowd control skills.
Frank_the_tank
05-07-2008, 13:52
The Barb in Diablo 3 seems to be more effective than his 20 years younger self. Which is good news since melee in Diablo 2 was way too weak. I think the "over the top barb" is what it takes to match crazy spell casting fellows and guys in shiny plates throwing hammers around. The Barb so far seems great.
fanharijo
05-07-2008, 16:28
I just don't see the reason why the barb skills can't be so flashy as some of the other classes skills like for example; the sorceress frozen orb (imo the best looking skill in action rpg's to this date and I pray it makes a comeback
As for him being old, as somebody probably have pointed out already, it feels like it is the same character from d2 since blizzard likes to continue the story from before with them either as npc's (the wanderer) or bosses (the summoner, Bloodraven)
Beside, warrior gods from ancient times usually have been portrayed as old men
Odin : http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z71/jose_galaviz/Odin01.jpg
Zeus : http://danielfuentes.iespana.es/danielfuentes/images/mitologia/zeus.jpg
Perun : http://www.petshark.com/images/perun.jpg
Ammareddo_Fritter
05-07-2008, 20:14
I think what the OP is talking about is the stuff like the shock wave. What in D2 did that Barbarian do that was physically impossible? I think only the leap attack. Now we have a huge mace from nowhere, hitting the ground to create an earthquake, and a faster than light charge. As for me, I've always enjoyed low fantasy much more than "deep" fantasy. S'why I dislike WoW so much.:smug:
snugglson
05-07-2008, 22:00
I just hope every class has awesome aoe skills, and that nobody is left killing one mob at a time. so boring.
I think what the OP is talking about is the stuff like the shock wave. What in D2 did that Barbarian do that was physically impossible? I think only the leap attack. Now we have a huge mace from nowhere, hitting the ground to create an earthquake, and a faster than light charge. As for me, I've always enjoyed low fantasy much more than "deep" fantasy. S'why I dislike WoW so much.:smug:
Finally somebody understands me.:thumbup:
where do people keep gettin ze idea.. that diablo is realistic (even mildly)?.. Its totally pure fantasy!! has and always will be.. wonder what these fellas think about.. the exorcist? rofl
where do people keep gettin ze idea.. that diablo is realistic (even mildly)?.. Its totally pure fantasy!! has and always will be.. wonder what these fellas think about.. the exorcist? rofl
I wonder who said anything about absolutes?
I just don't see the reason why the barb skills can't be so flashy as some of the other classes skills like for example; the sorceress frozen orb (imo the best looking skill in action rpg's to this date and I pray it makes a comeback
Yeah... just hope they change that sound :)
FO sorc = No sound
-Ellok
i personally dont think his skills are over the top
even though it appears so because of the high animation, it is still the same skill, look at leap attack for instance, what the barb does with leap attack is leap to a location and slams the ground causing mass damage, which is the same thing as the original one, except i think in the original leap attack only hits 1target, im not too sure since its been awhile since i've played
like if the sorc were to be in diablo3, and lets assume thunderstorm is a skill that doesn't need to be changed and that its already perfect, in d3 they will probably make the lightning bolt bigger, brighter, and leave some sparks behind once it hits the target, but it'll still hit only one target per 5secs
so to sum it all up, its just the animation that MAKES the skill look different, but its still almost the same
Simon Grim
09-07-2008, 04:57
I mean while watching the gameplay trailer I got the impression I was watching a demo for an arcade game or a Gods of War expansion. One of the things I always liked about Diablo was its ability to find a believable median between realism and fantasy. D3's barb seems to lean too heavily towards fantasy and over-the-top. I'm hoping they tone it down a bit in the final release.
Yeah I think he appeared a bit over the top because he has more distance attacks than he did. While Barbarian in some people's minds screams up close melee type skills. Compared to all other classes he is the king of in your face slash and smash. While from the video you see some distance abilities that for some odd reason he needs to balance out with everyone else I suppose is their reasoning behind it. I guess being the hardest hitting physical combat machine doesn't add up to everyone's need for half god like powers and being able to shake the ground with their fists.
On some of the other posts about people who want realism in their games and those who laugh at these people. I think its funny for some reason they think realism in a fantasy game is a joke. I know. How about we have god like powers and destroy entire buildings with the flick of our fingers, and with one exhale wipe entire worlds away that would be pretty boring. Oh too much fantasy for you? Realism is the balance that keeps us planted into accepting that our character can only do so much. Without limits like realistic physics and natural looking settings that the characters move around in. Oh I know lets have guns cause hell its fantasy. No reason they can't have them its not realistic its just fantasy. I know how bout a space ship ending where aliens save the day and not the heroes. Everyone still laughing at realism in fantasy games?
I just think its funny that so many people are willing to accept anything shoved at them with the excuse its fantasy. Well some of us like immersion into our games. Thats where the realism comes in. We like to feel like we could live there. If we didn't have it those zombies you see the barb smacking around could just be over sized Barney dinosaurs. While the last boss could be Ronald McDonald and you wouldn't care cause its just fantasy you just want to have a good time. You might could play it and have a laugh, but without a structure based in some realism how long would it keep your attention?
Not a gripe just tired of seeing people who like realism getting slammed by people living in pure fantasy delusions of "Its all fantasy". So when do we see guns in the game Blizzard I'm chomping at the bit for that expansion. -__-
AxlStrife
09-07-2008, 06:22
I'll have to agree with Simon, the skills of the barbarian look like they can really get out of hand with the physics engine.
I agree with some of the previous posters, the barb probably had uber gear and/or the demo was rigged, basically every single mob died in 1 hit.
On a sidenote, the witch doctor had the same thing. Have you seen that part where he puts up 2-3 insects swarms on like 30 zombies and they all die within a few seconds? Insane.
well they dont want the demo to take forever. It just supposed to be an intro into the character... the realism of it isnt their priority in the demos, its more on showing the new features of diablo 3 compared to daiblo 2. It might seem unrealistic and people might get mad at that, but when u play the game i really think its gonna be much different. The torrent of ghouls at the beginning? man, at level 1-10 your probably gonna have some huge trouble.
Ammareddo_Fritter
10-07-2008, 05:06
where do people keep gettin ze idea.. that diablo is realistic (even mildly)?.. Its totally pure fantasy!! has and always will be.. wonder what these fellas think about.. the exorcist? rofl
People want realism (not saying D2 was realistic) because people will always identify more with a regular person than a fantastic being. A regular, everyday joe is someone will all know & can root for, while a fantastic being is always drawing attention to the fact it's a game.
While this isn't a problem per se, the one thing Blizzard keeps throwing at us is "Total immersion; That's what we're aiming for."
I just hope every class has awesome aoe skills, and that nobody is left killing one mob at a time. so boring.
I don't think there's any fear for that.I mean out of all the skills we saw used in the gameplay video only three didn't hit more than one enemy.And two fo those were a summon and a buff.Hell,i'm not even sure if Hammer of the Titans won't hit a small aoe as well.
The torrent of ghouls at the beginning? man, at level 1-10 your probably gonna have some huge trouble.
In D2, in the Cold Plains(?) I haven't played in ages. Anyway the first time I played I was like "Oh cripes there are about 20 scary women with swords I'm screwed". Nothing much. You're about what, level 4 then? Diablo is all about tanking through insane amounts of enemies. The sewers of Lut Gholein is another good example. Oh so many choke points.
Simon Grim
11-07-2008, 03:05
I'll have to agree with Simon, the skills of the barbarian look like they can really get out of hand with the physics engine.
Thank you.
My main concern really isn't them getting wild. Its mainly the idea that now the barb has that distance attack shock wave thing? I'm sorry, but isn't the distance attacks the point of being a spell caster? I thought that was the key to their role in a game. To be able to do damage at range. Well if the barb has these abilities now what's the point in playing a caster who has lower hitpoints?
AxlStrife
11-07-2008, 03:28
Thank you.
My main concern really isn't them getting wild. Its mainly the idea that now the barb has that distance attack shock wave thing? I'm sorry, but isn't the distance attacks the point of being a spell caster? I thought that was the key to their role in a game. To be able to do damage at range. Well if the barb has these abilities now what's the point in playing a caster who has lower hitpoints?
Immune to physical might come back, as well as the others. I'm guessing Seismic Slam's distance won't be too much of a problem, nothing more than about 15 feet *forgets what the range was on the gameplay video*, but the flavor of it justifies its inclusion. My guess is it will act a little like Shockwave, of course that might be wrong. I personally can't wait to see some Arcana damage
Arbedark
13-07-2008, 19:10
Thank you.
My main concern really isn't them getting wild. Its mainly the idea that now the barb has that distance attack shock wave thing? I'm sorry, but isn't the distance attacks the point of being a spell caster? I thought that was the key to their role in a game. To be able to do damage at range. Well if the barb has these abilities now what's the point in playing a caster who has lower hitpoints?
I'd guess that the damage of the Barb's ranged skills isn't really going to be all that uber. More likely minor Crown Control skills, like when the Barb uses WC to stun the Shield Skeletons in the Demo.
about that guns comment...
...how is a gun(i'm thinking a blunderbuss type deal here, think the dwarves in sacred, not a 50 cal held one handed and fired from the hip) that much different from a MS zon with knockback/freezes target/slows target/critical strike/cb/fanat/might?
heck, the gun can only fire one bullet at a time, the zon fires one arrow that splits into like what, 23?
they're two equally over-powered things that have the same in-game effect
but yeah...diablo is realistic, right?
i actually wouldn't mind seeing some type of dwarf class that uses pistols or blunderbuss's; it worked pretty well for sacred.
AxlStrife
13-07-2008, 22:17
about that guns comment...
...how is a gun(i'm thinking a blunderbuss type deal here, think the dwarves in sacred, not a 50 cal held one handed and fired from the hip) that much different from a MS zon with knockback/freezes target/slows target/critical strike/cb/fanat/might?
heck, the gun can only fire one bullet at a time, the zon fires one arrow that splits into like what, 23?
they're two equally over-powered things that have the same in-game effect
but yeah...diablo is realistic, right?
i actually wouldn't mind seeing some type of dwarf class that uses pistols or blunderbuss's; it worked pretty well for sacred.
The difference is flavor. No mention of any form of gun powder has been made yet, and the archaic feel of a bow fits the fantasy theme better. How do you explain the long reloading times of early gun technology?
Multi-strike is an ability, so to compare an ability to a weapon is foolish.
Arbedark
14-07-2008, 02:04
The difference is flavor. No mention of any form of gun powder has been made yet, and the archaic feel of a bow fits the fantasy theme better. How do you explain the long reloading times of early gun technology?
Multi-strike is an ability, so to compare an ability to a weapon is foolish.
Yes, because over 2 shots a second with a crossbow is realistic...
No mention of any form of gun powder has been made yet,
Assassin's Fireblast bombs.
popodomo
14-07-2008, 16:37
Assassin's Fireblast bombs.
Indeed, maybe you could make a ranged weapon using alchemic-derived ammunition.
I would just like to point out that you don't need to have gunpowder for guns. Remember those little orange potions that drop all over D2 that no one EVER picks up? I would say its believable that in 20 years, some kid in the world of diablo found one of those useless potions, a hollow reed, and a potato & became the first person to ever shoot a fallen with a potato gun.
Although, honestly I'm against guns in diablo as it introduces a technology flair to a strictly (so far anyway) swords-n-sorcery type setting.
Actually Larzuk talks about creating guns (or some other npc talks about Larzuk talking about making guns) in Diablo 2. I hope they don't put guns in though. Guns are just... lame... for fantasy; sry.
On topic: the barb looks awesome. Much better gameplay mechanics, and all the attacks shown had AoE (albeit sometimes very limited) which is a vast improvement over D2. Melee will actually be able to compete with ranged characters in PvM. Woot!
I could definitely see the influence of God of War on the barb too. Another good thing. Kratos rox. Just as long as it doesn't turn into a juvenile testosterone battle... but I think Bliz will strike a good balance.
Ammareddo_Fritter
15-07-2008, 23:31
Pleasepleasepleasepleasepleaseplease do not mention dwarfs or elves in Diablo. Ever.
Tao Jones
16-07-2008, 00:16
My humble prediction:
The skills granted the barbarian will be uber when the game first starts. Then blizzard will release a nerf patch. Anyone remember the lance barb days?
When all the barb people get pissed and begin cloning hammerdin builds by the millions, blizzard will ok with that.
History repeats.
History repeats.
I think that shockwave skill he has is overdoing it. He's a master of melee combat. So much for that philosophy when he's killing everything from a distance.
I mean comeon! What is this, Gauntlet Legends!? He's a magicless barbarian, how is he shooting mystical shockwaves at people?
What is so mystical about smashing face so hard, everything behind that face gets smashed along with it?
Now take that concept, and exaggerate it. Smash the monster, everything behind that monster gets smashed along with it!
Besides, the barbarians were always supernatural. Leap attack, Iron Skin, Natural Resistance, Frenzy, Berzerk, etc.
Tao Jones
16-07-2008, 19:19
What is so mystical about smashing face so hard, everything behind that face gets smashed along with it?
Now take that concept, and exaggerate it. Smash the monster, everything behind that monster gets smashed along with it!
Besides, the barbarians were always supernatural. Leap attack, Iron Skin, Natural Resistance, Frenzy, Berzerk, etc.
I agree 100%. The shockwave effect is at least a logical exaggeration of reality, much like when a barbarian leaps the full length of the screen, and far less preternatural than other skills, like when the big oaf digs health potions out of rotting corpses.
If people want an injection of hyper-realism in their fantasy game, they should turn their computers off and go join the SCA.
I agree with some of the previous posters, the barb probably had uber gear and/or the demo was rigged, basically every single mob died in 1 hit.
On a sidenote, the witch doctor had the same thing. Have you seen that part where he puts up 2-3 insects swarms on like 30 zombies and they all die within a few seconds? Insane.
I wouldn't really be surprised if you will be able to 1-hit-kill monsters even in the final release. In D2 you get a eBOTD and WW through anything (not immune) in Hell and kill them all.
After all this is what most of the players want: overpowered characters so they can kill anything easily. In D2 you needed dupe-words, in D3 Blizzard might just as well give this power by default.
If hacking won't be easy in D3, not many people will play it if they don't kill everything easily, and if they have to use pots!
A bit of challenge is nice for some players, but don't forget most of them want POWER over anything else!
The barbarian in D2 is pretty boring to play with the exception of a few skills (my personal favourites are leap attack and whirlwind, even though they aren't necessarily the most effective). Probably because they had the same idea of a melee class then as some of the people in this thread. That they shouldn't be able to harm anything that isn't stood directly in front of them. Which also creates the problem that the barbarian has no answer for monsters that are simply too strong for him to stand next to, making progression through the entire game rely on high end equipment.
In diablo 2 I never consider a barbarian for an untwinked or first time through character. With that in mind I'm happy that blizzard are reworking the barb with some mid distance attacks, both of which that I've seen are pretty cool. Seismic slam looks awesome, and the way it makes bits of the enviroment fly around the screen is great. It just looks like a really satisfying skill to use, to me. I liked the Tauren Chieftan's Shockwave in WC III as well though, so its not suprising I'm taken with it.
I personally feel sesmic wave is pretty normal for a physical build character. The ancient Chinese, Japanese and Korean history has record of famous warriors releasing internal energy, we call 'chi'. If you all can't fathom what I'm trying to say, then maybe you can take Naruto as an example, crashing on the ground with such a huge force than it radiates out. That's my rationale, rather than some western sorcerer conjuring spells from their mana reservior.
Ammareddo_Fritter
23-07-2008, 20:49
Besides, the barbarians were always supernatural. Leap attack, Iron Skin, Natural Resistance, Frenzy, Berzerk, etc.
Well, certain people can develop natural resistances. Some Buddhist monks can maintain a normal body temp in freezing conditions, while fakirs can walk on burning coals.
Some martial artists made their skin on their hands so strong it could piece rhino hide (they couldn't pick up anything though :whistling: )
And of course, there is the salmon jump.
Obviously, the Barbarian is an exaggeration of these things, but shock-waves & magical hammers are a complete detachment from reality.
Can these people perform these feats in heavy combat conditions? Can they jump in distances that can be measured in dozens of yards? Can they develop skin strong enough to withstand temperature that effectively kills people in seconds? Can they toughen their skin to turn strikes by 500+ pound monstrosities into glancing blows? Can they consistently accelerate their speed to superhuman levels while maintaining absolute control over their motion?
Even if you write these away as more or less "realistic"...
Can they scream hard enough to literally stun and kill their enemies while shattering constructs? Can they convert an attack that is based on physical impact into magical energy that harms the target irrelevant of it's physical toughness? Can they turn people around them superhumanly strong, tough, and skilled in areas of expertise completely unfamiliar to the them by simply shouting?
The Barbarian always was a major detachment from reality, both in subtle ways (really, a physical fighter gaining comparable destructive power to those who channel energy of their Gods, elements, and death is grounded in reality?) and flashy-spectacular ways. I don't see how this game is any different.
The shockwaves are likely going to be weak. Stop being naive and thinking everything every character can do is a 1-hit K.O. Sheesh, so much for an intelligent discussion.
you are right they probably should have just made 5 all new characters so people would not cry.
sorry but how do you propose to do this?? there is a 99% chance that 5 new char classes will mean 5 new names and different names for skills... everything exactly the same as before lol...
Just a waste of time..
andreasdr
25-07-2008, 23:42
Can these people perform these feats in heavy combat conditions? Can they jump in distances that can be measured in dozens of yards? Can they develop skin strong enough to withstand temperature that effectively kills people in seconds? Can they toughen their skin to turn strikes by 500+ pound monstrosities into glancing blows? Can they consistently accelerate their speed to superhuman levels while maintaining absolute control over their motion?
Can they scream hard enough to literally stun and kill their enemies while shattering constructs? Can they convert an attack that is based on physical impact into magical energy that harms the target irrelevant of it's physical toughness? Can they turn people around them superhumanly strong, tough, and skilled in areas of expertise completely unfamiliar to the them by simply shouting?Taking this part of your post out of context makes it seem as though you are a die-hard barb fan responding to a post in which someone has written something like: "I've watched some awesome martial arts clips on youtube and suddenly don't think the diablo barbarian has much to offer in comparison" :).
Taking this part of your post out of context makes it seem as though you are a die-hard barb fan responding to a post in which someone has written something like: "I've watched some awesome martial arts clips on youtube and suddenly don't think the diablo barbarian has much to offer in comparison" :).
rofl, brilliant.
Blood_And_Iron
31-07-2008, 23:38
i think that shockwave skill he has is overdoing it. He's a master of melee combat. So much for that philosophy when he's killing everything from a distance.
I mean comeon! What is this, gauntlet legends!? He's a magicless barbarian, how is he shooting mystical shockwaves at people?
Hulk! SMAAASH!
the animation seen to have been over done is because the barb looks more like a "god" than a "hero" imo... making it feels like *why the hell am i in a dungeon wen i can jst leap over and hulk smash diablo in the head?*
any way, thats base on the current gameplay vid and ss, so until further information is released (eg size of bosses, etc) it's wat it feels like atm
You play a character that is a direct threat, in physical combat, to a personification of evil, essentially the universe's bad gods.
I am not seeing the problem with your character looking like he is up to the challenge.
Ammareddo_Fritter
04-08-2008, 19:04
Can these people perform these feats in heavy combat conditions? Can they jump in distances that can be measured in dozens of yards? Can they develop skin strong enough to withstand temperature that effectively kills people in seconds? Can they toughen their skin to turn strikes by 500+ pound monstrosities into glancing blows? Can they consistently accelerate their speed to superhuman levels while maintaining absolute control over their motion?
Even if you write these away as more or less "realistic"...
Can they scream hard enough to literally stun and kill their enemies while shattering constructs? Can they convert an attack that is based on physical impact into magical energy that harms the target irrelevant of it's physical toughness? Can they turn people around them superhumanly strong, tough, and skilled in areas of expertise completely unfamiliar to the them by simply shouting?
The Barbarian always was a major detachment from reality, both in subtle ways (really, a physical fighter gaining comparable destructive power to those who channel energy of their Gods, elements, and death is grounded in reality?) and flashy-spectacular ways. I don't see how this game is any different.
That's why I used the word "exaggeration." Those were based on weird physical feats humans can actually do, but were "exaggerated" to be useful in a game. Now, where in real life has anyone been able to make even a tiny hammer appear from thin air? Cause even a little earthquake with their foot? I never said the d2 barb was realistic, just that some of his skills were based on actually things that were exaggerated
I've had this debate with my friend for awhile now and like him I see there is a few people here that can not understand a median between realism and fantasy. There is people and a broad range at that. Just because a story has fantasy elements in it does not mean it is pure fantasy with no governing laws of realism. Best example is the old movie of King Arthur named "Excalibur" (No, not the latest Roman movie, or any of the remakes, the old classic one) You had Merlin and his magic, a magical sword that was pulled from a stone and a few other elements. Now because you had those "unrealistic" parts does that mean it would make sense if Arthur suddenly started flying around with Excalibur on fire, Orcs and Goblins came out, Merlin started casting insane novas and infernos? No, your reaction would prob be somewhere along the lines of "Wtf?" Why? Because the story while originally had light fantasy elements had a very realistic world governing it.
Some people feel the same is true about the Diablo series. Compare Diablo to Warcraft and you can tell that the original games while still having magic items, spells had a defined line that made it a much more realistic world then anything you will see in any of the WarCraft games. Compare items and armor to that of WoW. Items and armor had a more realistic look while still stylized look. Something practical and easilly believible that could be used. With WoW well my warr has spikes (and blades) as big as my arm all over his body, with a sword twice my size with some cosmic pulsing fog (executioner enchant) coming off it, and can stomp on the ground making a electric wave pluse that makes 10ft cracks. That is because WoW is far far deeper into the fantasy spectrum then Diablo ever was.
It was a stretch to see the Barb fly across the screen, its even more to see him create fissures under his feet when he lands. Full plate, and no matter how high, that isn't going to happen. So I think people are just worried about losing the realistic governing laws Diablo had to more of a full range "any thing goes" such as Warcraft. Does it personally bother me that much? No, but my favorite was Diablo for that very reason. With minor visual effect spells (other then the very high end ones) and the concept of demons and angles the game was very much set in a realistic world. There is a point where it can just be to much, and WoW I feel passed that line a long time ago.
Blood_And_Iron
05-08-2008, 06:39
I've had this debate with my friend for awhile now and like him I see there is a few people here that can not understand a median between realism and fantasy. There is people and a broad range at that. Just because a story has fantasy elements in it does not mean it is pure fantasy with no governing laws of realism. Best example is the old movie of King Arthur named "Excalibur" (No, not the latest Roman movie, or any of the remakes, the old classic one) You had Merlin and his magic, a magical sword that was pulled from a stone and a few other elements. Now because you had those "unrealistic" parts does that mean it would make sense if Arthur suddenly started flying around with Excalibur on fire, Orcs and Goblins came out, Merlin started casting insane novas and infernos? No, your reaction would prob be somewhere along the lines of "Wtf?" Why? Because the story while originally had light fantasy elements had a very realistic world governing it.
Some people feel the same is true about the Diablo series. Compare Diablo to Warcraft and you can tell that the original games while still having magic items, spells had a defined line that made it a much more realistic world then anything you will see in any of the WarCraft games. Compare items and armor to that of WoW. Items and armor had a more realistic look while still stylized look. Something practical and easilly believible that could be used. With WoW well my warr has spikes (and blades) as big as my arm all over his body, with a sword twice my size with some cosmic pulsing fog (executioner enchant) coming off it, and can stomp on the ground making a electric wave pluse that makes 10ft cracks. That is because WoW is far far deeper into the fantasy spectrum then Diablo ever was.
It was a stretch to see the Barb fly across the screen, its even more to see him create fissures under his feet when he lands. Full plate, and no matter how high, that isn't going to happen. So I think people are just worried about losing the realistic governing laws Diablo had to more of a full range "any thing goes" such as Warcraft. Does it personally bother me that much? No, but my favorite was Diablo for that very reason. With minor visual effect spells (other then the very high end ones) and the concept of demons and angles the game was very much set in a realistic world. There is a point where it can just be to much, and WoW I feel passed that line a long time ago.
So agree or disagree notwithstanding, what's the point you and your friend try to make? Do you guys like the Barbarian in D3 right now? What would you like to see?
stillman
05-08-2008, 11:55
I think it doesn't bother him that much, but he is making a point about immersion. Simply put, it's OK for a barb to have fantastic barb abilities, but it crosses the line if "anything goes" and barbs can do overboard magic tricks like creating energies and earthquakes.
The d2 barb was mostly based on an actual barbarian. He had almost no real magic at all. His abilities like war cries were beefed up interpretations of historical heros trying to raly the crowd (for ex: what we see in the movie Braveheart where Wallace yells a speach about freedom to his army and they get hyped for battle). Obviously, in d2, such skills had to be exagerated for better effect and fun. Don't underestimate the power of the placebo. In medicine, studies have shown that a sugar pill can cure 30% of some symptoms if the person taking the pill "believes" that it "may" be an actual drug. 30% is substantial. So a barbarian won't actually give another person more physical strength, but with words, he can inspire another person to hit harder or fight longer, etc.
Anyway, I wanted to point out that Excalibur was my favorite movie and it was the 18th most watched movie in 1981. It was full of historical inacuaracies. For instance, the knights were shown in full suits of armor, but this technology had not yet been invented in the dark ages where the movie was set. The makers of Excalibur were aware of this, and they wanted to focus on the mythical aspects of the Aurthor legend, not the actual history. But like NJS mentioned, the movie did not go overboard showing Author flying around like a wizard. The concern with d3 is that the barb is flying around like a wizard.
I too have had a problem explaining this sort of thing in other threads. For instance, in d2 we have fire that does not leave a burn mark on the ground. I thought this was cheap, and not too realistic. I made a remark about how things like this could be improved for d3. And of course, people said "Umm...it's a fantasy game? It's not supposed to be realistic. If you want realism, go play a race car game."
Hmmm...well with that logic, why bother animating the barb at all? Wouldn't it be cheaper to just have him appear as a static picture that you slide around on the screen? Or even cheaper, make him appear as a simple square. After all, it's fantasy. It's not supposed to be realistic. We have paly's making floating hammers come out of thin air, so we can throw realism out the window. Lets make the barb be able to cast firewall. Why not? It's fantasy.
So with that line of thinking, the game isn't going to be improved much. There needs to be some realsim in the game so that we get immersed with it. It's a bit harder to get immersed if you have a barb who is a lot like a wizard. I think that the barb having too many not-so-barb-like abilities is reasonable argument.
A "reasonable" barbarian will once again go back to being "let's chip away crowds 1 monster at a time unless we use the slightly less reasonable, but still acceptable, Whirlwind."
No, thank you. Reasonable and realistic fighters suck in hack'n'slash. The most fun fighter skills in Diablo 2, for me, were the likes of Leap Attack, Whirlwind, Zeal, Double Throw, Charge. I play Diablo to see extraordinary feats of badassery that shrugs the laws of physics aside for the rule of cool.
I don't feel the D3 Barbarian is anything like a magic user because he can make exaggerated shockwaves, dash at super-high speed, or jump/slam without any regard for Newtonian physics. He is well within the scopes of how I view a warrior that can physically compete with mages. He isn't summoning, he isn't chucking fireballs, he isn't putting magical shields over himself. All his actions in the gameplay movie are exaggerated and "logical" extensions of his sheer physical power.
Simply put, you can't HAVE reasonable fighters look reasonable in a Diablo a game where you fight alone against hundreds and hundreds of monsters; or humongous creatures like at the end of the gameplay vid. It looks silly and breaks immersion. A realistic fighter has no chance in that kind of situations - he will be overwhelmed by numbers, get by the time he offs the first 100 bad guys, and be hopelessly outclassed by something that is 20 times his mass. The act of a one man army is already far beyond the scope of realism. I find it more logical and internally consistent when a physical fighter that take on odds that crush entire armies looks like he is up for to the task.
Lord_Jaroh
06-08-2008, 14:34
My question is, if I am a sword-wielding barb or an axe-wielding barb, will my "Hammer of the Ancients" become a "Sword of the Ancients"
This is my bigger beef with it.
twaddlefife
07-08-2008, 21:32
Personally, the barb shouldn't have even made it into D3. He was one of the least interesting characters. For me its a little like this "Cool! Look how awesome it is to fight through hordes of monsters with a medieval version of a hells angels member (biker gang)". I wish they would've came up with a class to replace the barb. Actually I wish they weren't bringing any of the olds classes back I would've really liked to see a whole new line up of unique classes to choose from, but since that won't happen I'll just have to deal with it.
Lord_Jaroh
08-08-2008, 05:32
In a way I too would like to see a different pure melee class, and maybe we will still get one. I'm hoping for a "lightly-armored" sword user (think Samurai Jack) with some chi-type abilities if anything, just for something different in the Diablo Universe.
We might still get something else like a "Death Knight" or something, think a cursing, skeleton-raising, evil aura paladin, which would also work (and be a combo of Necro and the Paladin to give us something new).
I am all for magical-like meleers, but the barb as is seems way to flashy. I hope he won't be pigeonholed into hammers, and has the option for other weapons along with attacks that suit those weapons.
ill logic
08-08-2008, 05:54
Lord_Jaroh:
Well we've already seen that if you're using an axe, it doesn't become "Axe of the Ancients." Like Smokey says, only you can prevent bad stuff from happening (to get Blizz to change it...yeah). And kudos to konfeta about the realism thing. When people say "realism" in a fantasy setting, they don't mean realism as would traditionally be understood. They mean that things are explainable within the way the world appears to be. It's a scientific bias perhaps. Blame the zeitgeist.
Anyway, it would seem that Bashiok doesn't mind the ex nihilo Hammer at all, since it still has a visceral or melee feel to it. IMO the Barb is in so Blizz can say look what we can do. I mean, look at how much better he seems to be than in D2. Massive cracks when he stomps. Tons of AoE attacks, not just Frenzy and WW this time around. Pretty graphics on the warcries. Contrast simple attacks to the beautiful, flashy attacks of now and it's just madness...or Sparta. Consider that we had 5 completely new classes, according an old Blizz employee, and yet they brought the barb back to that employee's suprise.
It's no suprise that the barb was the char that was shown first. I think showing the WD was a decision predicated entirely on the desire to show a contrast with the barb.
BTW, this post was brought to you by Corona.
I think d2 barbarian was over the top already. He was able to do *magical* damage which would kill phisical inmune creature (berseker) and was able to start a death dance with whirling swords that could last as much as it is desired (as long as there are enough enemies), changing directions and what not.
Imho, the new one is not less realistic. It just has better animations.
BTW, the other diablo 2 "martial" character was able to drop meteors with kicks. Talking about realism in d2.
Where is all of this realism nonsense coming from? You kids need to lay off the OpFlash and stop mixing genres. Fantasy Dungeon Crawler != Realistic Combat Sim.
Expect to see even more over-the-top spell effects, because that translates into entertainment for the player; and Gameplay will always be > Realism. Diablo is a simple dungeon crawler at it's core, so anything that can increase the entertainment/enjoyment for the player is going to stay.
PS- Go give a frenzybarb a pair of rifts and then tell me that D2's barb isn't incredibly over the top. Thanks.
Ammareddo_Fritter
09-08-2008, 23:46
Where is all of this realism nonsense coming from? You kids need to lay off the OpFlash and stop mixing genres. Fantasy Dungeon Crawler != Realistic Combat Sim.
Expect to see even more over-the-top spell effects, because that translates into entertainment for the player; and Gameplay will always be > Realism. Diablo is a simple dungeon crawler at it's core, so anything that can increase the entertainment/enjoyment for the player is going to stay.
PS- Go give a frenzybarb a pair of rifts and then tell me that D2's barb isn't incredibly over the top. Thanks.
For you over the top fantasy>realism. People can only speak for themselves and people they know well. I liked Stronghold 10X better than Warcraft 2. I liked Warcraft 2 1000X better than Wc3. Wc2? Fantasy fun. Wc3? Fantasy overdose.
I don't think anyone is really saying D2 was anywhere near realistic, but fantasy (for me) is only fun up to a point. I mean, a bunch of random forms fighting in a way that in no way resembles the physical world isn't as fun as something we can recognize as being two creatures fighting in hand to hand combat, right? People still love Jackie Chan movies 20 years later because he was doing real stunts. One to two months is the general time it takes for people to forget the latest Matrix rip-off.
Funkopotamus
10-08-2008, 09:28
For me, a good base in realism really helps the fantasy really pop. It feels more outrageous even if it's less than so. For instance, I would rather have knock a few monsters 5-10 feet with a well placed skill over all monsters flying 15 feet just from normal skill use. It's more fantastic when I see it less. Like the Xenomorph in the first Aliens movie. Also, I'm not commenting on the monster flight in the demo video.
If we're going to go pure fantasy though, I want to play a robot with a hoverboard and I want to time travel when I hit 88.8mph.
CaptainDingo
12-08-2008, 03:21
I'm attributing much of the easiness to the fact that it was just a demonstration.
The only thing I had an issue with in that demonstration was they went to length to discuss how the skeletons had shields they could absorb massive amounts of damage with, so you had to stun them to make them take their shields down.
So he did that with the first skeleton, then just Whirlwinded through the other, ignoring his "tactic." ...So really, they showed us that using your brain is optional (AKA pointless).
Again, I'll give it the benefit of the doubt because it's a demonstration.
MagisterMan
16-08-2008, 20:14
I hope they tone down some of the animations, like seismic slam (?). Imagine eight players all doing those attacks at the same time.
Alright, I'm excessively confused by people explaining away CarsV's questions by saying the game was easy because it was a demonstration. It seems to me that he wasn't talking about the Barbarian being "overpowered" per se, but rather that he appeared no longer human.
The characters vary greatly in their degrees of realism (I shudder to use that word after reading 9 pages of Realism vs Fantasy diatribes), but the Barbarian has always been the underdog to a degree. Think of Diablo 1 and Hellfire, with Mages tearing through Hell with a bevy of powerful spells. Contrast this with the Barbarian in Hellfire, who was basically magically inept and made up for it through tactics and his hardiness. Moving on to Diablo 2 the Barbarian lost most of it's playability due to the excessive amount of things that were auto-kills to him and negligible to casters. MSLE's back in the day destroyed Barbarians, as did FE explosions and bugged vipers in later iterations of the game, top this off with IM and it becomes an incredible detriment to stand toe-to-toe with your foes - even with additional survivability.
Diablo 3's Barbarian seems to me to have an aspect of the Diablo 2 druid to him. This makes perfect sense to me, as the intervening time between games could easily have resulted in their reconciliation. That being said, if you were to view the Barbarian based solely on his previous incarnations his moveset would not quit fit the preconceived ideas you would have.
Overall, I'm looking forward to playing the Diablo 3 Barbarian. I'm not expecting his skills to be overpowered one-shot kills, but rather to supplement his arsenal of physical attacks and provide him with a tool against masses of ranged attackers or whatever else they throw at him.
Cheers
-Tai
As long as high-level skills scale 'accordingly' in coolness-factor compared to the level 1 skills, I'll be happy. I could see a potential problem with a level 1 "Ground Slam" thing being -- visually -- equally as impressive as a level 30 something-or-other.
It's probably too much to ask for logistically, but I'd love to see some enhanced visual variation as you pump points into a given skill. Level 1 Ground Slam looks like a few cracks in the ground, Level 20 looks like a nuclear bomb went off. Etc.
Tashohnie
21-08-2008, 13:54
I am interested to see what spec you need to play this. My pc should run it fine but I might build a new PC before it comes out :)
Schwalker
23-08-2008, 22:46
As I guess there are a few Barb fans around here, what do you think about the explanation that the barb was brought back because the designers was unhappy with the D2 barb, i.e He simply wasn´t impressive enough and was considered "unfinished" in comparison with "finished" characters like the Necro.
Was the barb that "underwhelming" really?
Funkopotamus
24-08-2008, 15:47
I always thought he was cool.
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