If Necros can't melee or ranged, game will suck

[PontifulGC]

(the title can also read: witchdoctors if necro is gone)

All I can say is that when I play other games, like age of conan (boring void) or WoW (beautiful until 60th) there is this tendency for class specific.

In D2, I had 3-4 necro's that did not use casting damage and instead were melee. Earlier before major patches, I had a bowmancer dood. Then a CBlow Bowmancer. THen more patches then just an axe based necro (messer's reaver) . He had a huge golem, nice curses, and killed hell baal in 43 seconds solo. That was on the clock 43 seconds. First try.

Most of rpgs are just that, playing someone elses role. NO openended character design. Oh sure, you see in WoW fighters using bows/guns, but they suck at it compared to "hunters"

Then there was my mage. I had a melee girl, she was ok, not as fun as I hoped, but she worked. Then I had a bow elemental sorc-chick. She was quite strong. Hell in the later patches was a bit difficult for her to get around but she got far in it.

I have also had a druid that used Kuko's and lots of maxed pets. That and the axe/golem necro were my favorite characters! EVER!

I am an expert at seeing trends. It is my business and the way my mind is set up. I figure out stuff that others think is a secret. What they are possibly thinking, how they will react, etc. I am not always right but I rely on probability to guess the most likely outcome.

So, with that I can say that the PATCHES that made melee and ranged Necro's and Sorc's and Druids start to suck happened in succession. It is obvious that the patch team was very year 2000+ and kiddie like. They made the classes more pigeon-holed. A necro was OVERPOWERED if they did casting necro stuff. A sorc was SUPER strong if she did only pure cast cast cast stuff. A druid could have pets, but had issues if they didnt shapeshift. All of this was due to the "designers" (I laugh using that word) making the game more class specific and therefore more retarded.

I see the witchdoctor as kiddie, and more retarded. I did notice he had a dagger on him. Poison dagger? I guess? It should be noted that in latest patches of a few years that Necro's poison dagger was trumped by poison explosion which was trumped by poison misty crap. It wasnt like that ever. The harder to land skills did more damage than the easier spam skills. I had a poison dagger necro that was level 95 back when level 95 was insanity. He had a sick iron golem, some decent curses, and stacked poison sc's that were all legit and all kinda immense. His poison gear would kill anyone in a few seconds. Yes, I pvp'd with him vs bow girls and barbs and won 1 out of 2 vs people. No teleport either.

then he was nerfed. He still could kill, but it was nerfed a lot. enigma wearing morons and generic builds were the only ones that could kill effectively after patch after patch. Tendency. That is just the tendency, the sign of the times.

So that is why wd exists. the lack of creativity in builds causes for designers to try and force a character to look creatively built. What makes creativity is full latitude for users who are mature and have played for decades to make their own choices. yes, those choices should be more difficult, but they should also work if pushed to the Nth degree.

I have been playing for years, stopped playind d2 now for about 2 years. My clan is the oldest in the game that I ever found, going back to the first month of diablo 1. I have tried a lot of builds and they worked until the kiddie era of mmorpg's started to come into play, which is about 5 years now.

[Teleportation]

I agree, making original characters that are still good were the best thing in D2.

[PontifulGC]

I am amazed that anyone actually knows what I am talking about. jeez. nice. I would buy you a candy bar if this convo wasnt electronic.

[Nebulus]

There's no reason the witch doctor shouldn't be able to melee or use ranged weapons.

http://www.linkmesh.com/imagenes/temas/street_fighter/dhalsim_fuego.jpg+http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Rafiki_TheLionKing.JPG=http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/_images/artwork/ss8.jpg
The witch doctor's two biggest inspirations are obviously:
Rafiki from the Lion King, whose great at melee. Proof here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JCOA9GiagU&NR=1

And Dhalsim from Street Fighter whose great at ranged attacks (I consider his stretch technique a form of ranged attack):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrB7AlQHcMc

[PontifulGC]

Jeez. I hated that movie with a strong passion (refused to watch but mere seconds of it) and my least favorite character in Street fighter was that guy!

looks like a winning combo! I wonder if he is going to sing disney tunes with a bad voice as a bonus?

And i notice you say.... "There's no reason the witch doctor shouldn't be able to melee or use ranged weapons."

ahhhhh.... no reason in a smart person's mind .... we arent dealing with those types anymore friend!

[smartdot]

ok, so now we know your life story. I dont mean to be rude, but what was the point of this post. you told us what you like, and what you dont like, the made assumptions on something you havent tried. are you just looking for people to agree or are you looking for feed back.

also, who's to say your idea of fun is the same as everyone else's. i dont have anything against out of the box ideas, but i enjoy playing a character that does one thing really well. does that mean im "Kiddy" or less mature? Back in the 40's and 50's if you wore jeans, that meant you wear of a lower social class, but peoples perception evolved, and now they are the most popular type of clothing in the world. if people are moving towards "kiddy" focused classes, whats the problem with that? no ones saying you have to play a game you dont like.

[Animation]

I agree with the OP as well. Some people say hell is too easy, but only for the overpowered, obvious, direct power builds that conform precisely to what the developers decided was appropriate. They made sure Hell was doable with the cookie cutter power builds and called it a day.

They should have brought back the direct power builds back in line with the others. EVERY skill that has 20 ranks in it should be able to be the core basis of a build. I remember FONDLY back in the day when, while it was a challenge, you could make Hell-capable Blaze/Thunderstorm Sorceresses. It wasnt easy but you could. You could make Bone Wall + Iron Maiden necros. You could make all-curse necros with IM and Attract.

Like many I have been going back to Diablo 2 to play to whet my appetite while I wait on the new game. I'm re-living the sadness a bit, while still having fun, because I'm remembering now that only certain builds can make it.

I'm hoping the devs now show more wisdom in allowing odd skill combos to survive through the hardest difficulties, IF you commit to them and play with intelligence. I'm hoping to heck that it wont be all *whirl* *whirl* *whirl* and *zeal* *zeal* *zeal* and *zap* *zap* *zap*. I'm hoping odd builds like a Daggerzon or the equivalent, or a melee Witchdoctor, etc, remain possible throughout hell IF you are skilled and commit whole-heartedly to the build.

I'm hoping all those bizarre but effective (pre synergy days) builds and equipment/skill interactions were intentional and not just a miraculous oversight that happened to work until the synergy days and hell nerf days sent them the way of the Dodo.

Lewis

[Animation]

also, who's to say your idea of fun is the same as everyone else's. i dont have anything against out of the box ideas, but i enjoy playing a character that does one thing really well.

He is saying that they need to design it so that the obvious "Hulk Smash" type of Barbarian is viable if you want to do one thing; but a "Leaping ONLY to Kill My Foes" Barbarian who doesnt use weapon but commits to being a stomper should be totally viable. Especially if you can put 20 points in Leap/Stomp attacks, there is NO REASON that shouldnt be as viable as someone who puts 20 points in Whirlwind. A Barbarian who figures out ways to use Bows in conjunction with some unknown power might be possible.

He is saying that YOUR build and HIS build idea should both fit in the game. He isnt saying that Barbarians swinging a sword should suck. He is saying the game needs to support out of the box ideas too. Look at Blaze on the D2 Sorceress tree. The only thing that prevented that skill from remaining Hell Viable when they nerfed everything and added synergies is either that the developers didnt want to, or didnt think about, making sure the damage remained adequate for Hell.

Lewis.

[tetracycloide]

EVERY skill that has 20 ranks in it should be able to be the core basis of a build.

There's no reason to suspect this won't be true given the already obvious fact that every skill won't have 20 ranks as it did in D2.

Still, when it gets right down to it, if you prefer a specific playstyle and a specific class but the class you prefer can't play the way you like to play then perhaps you should roll a class you enjoy playing. The game designers are, after all, designing a role playing game. Designing classes with a specific playstyle archtype isn't wrong, it's actually the definition of a class.

Poor design enters in when classes are given skills that do not match their archtype. It was poor design to give necros poison dagger or sorcs enchant as anything other than party buffs in the first place. Synergies were also poor design and were very build limiting when they were implemented in D2. Given the information we currently have synergies are out too. I'm hoping as much as anyone that every skill each class is assigned to it has a use and none of it is crappy filler or one point wonders but that is completely different from the argument that you should be able to beat the game with a class while playing it as if it were a totally different class.

[smartdot]

i agree with the above poster. Like i said before, i have nothing against out of the box ideas, but a class is designed a certain way for a reason. If every class can fill all the roles, whats the point - put a blindfold on and pick one. also, if you can just put points any where nilly-willy, then what does that say about the difficulty level. I hear people complaining about how they think the game will be too easy, then other people saying the want every skill to be uber. There should be rewards for players who play their role and make intelligent skill choices.

[Animation]

I actually DO agree with the above two posters, though they may see it different. I am not asking for the ability to beat the game on the hardest difficulty with a Bow on a Barbarian, because he has no bow skills (referring to D2).

I *am* saying that if they give a class a skill, and give it 20 ranks or levels, then there should be SOME hell-viable combination that lets you max it, actually use it, have it be not just fluff, and compare in overall effectiveness through the end-game.

Lewis

[PontifulGC]

I dont think most of the posters in this thread have made alternative builds from normal-hell in DII. If they had, they would know how incredibly difficult and item/charm dependent it is to make such a build.

a Singer barb
Axe Necro
Titan Sorc
Boxer Necro
Bow Necro
Elemental bow Sorc

All of these are difficult builds

Almost none of these builds kills 1/10 as fast as a regular run of the mill build.
the super necro axe guy i had with Messers had sick gear and sick charms and well, the curses made stuff die 4x the normal speed.

[Psycroptic]

Any char in hell is item and charm dependant if they want any sort of kill speed and survivability.

[PontifulGC]

er well yes to a larger degree. But a specific oddball path needs VERY particular gear to work.

I hope they bring back Crushing blow/CB

That made for some neato builds. Dont break what's fixed and fine. Most game companies love to do that.

[tetracycloide]

CB made for some really OP builds too. Smiters and kick'sin clone and uber killers could achieve absurd kill times on clones and clear times on uber tristram. Any stat that can take a caster build, like a hammerdin, and turn it into a melee build based on a lvl 1/20 melee abilities is an inbalanced stat. If CB comes back it needs some major work.

[diaBECKtic]

I agree with the OP as well. Some people say hell is too easy, but only for the overpowered, obvious, direct power builds that conform precisely to what the developers decided was appropriate. They made sure Hell was doable with the cookie cutter power builds and called it a day.

They should have brought back the direct power builds back in line with the others. EVERY skill that has 20 ranks in it should be able to be the core basis of a build. I remember FONDLY back in the day when, while it was a challenge, you could make Hell-capable Blaze/Thunderstorm Sorceresses. It wasnt easy but you could. You could make Bone Wall + Iron Maiden necros. You could make all-curse necros with IM and Attract.

Like many I have been going back to Diablo 2 to play to whet my appetite while I wait on the new game. I'm re-living the sadness a bit, while still having fun, because I'm remembering now that only certain builds can make it.

I'm hoping the devs now show more wisdom in allowing odd skill combos to survive through the hardest difficulties, IF you commit to them and play with intelligence. I'm hoping to heck that it wont be all *whirl* *whirl* *whirl* and *zeal* *zeal* *zeal* and *zap* *zap* *zap*. I'm hoping odd builds like a Daggerzon or the equivalent, or a melee Witchdoctor, etc, remain possible throughout hell IF you are skilled and commit whole-heartedly to the build.

I'm hoping all those bizarre but effective (pre synergy days) builds and equipment/skill interactions were intentional and not just a miraculous oversight that happened to work until the synergy days and hell nerf days sent them the way of the Dodo.

Lewis

Yeah - I think I mentioned this in another thread (or something to that extent). I'd LOVE to see skills balanced enough so that you can make an effective build with some of the more "odd" skill combinations. In Diablo 2, the only time that odd builds were "fun" was when you had the "wealth" to get the items that were necessary to allow the character to easily kill stuff. I'm not saying the developers should make the game easier, but rather that they should eliminate the tendency for certain skills to be more "favored" than others (and lead to cookie-cutter builds).

I remember my "Dreamdin." That thing took a LOT of time to deck out, but when it was properly built, it easily destroyed everything through Hell. It could single-handedly take out those Uber-monsters, too, if I recall. Again - it was fun to play but it wouldn't work properly if you didn't acquire the "wealth" to make it efficient...
:whistling:

[diaBECKtic]

Any char in hell is item and charm dependant if they want any sort of kill speed and survivability.

Yeah...they should try and get away from that. It made the game less enjoyable once the patches introduced elements that kind of forced players into that.

[Stafir]

Ok..I don't see the problem.

You picked a class...say..a sorc. Who's ENTIRE set of trees and skills was based almost solely on the idea of attack, at range, with spells. Then she just happened to have a few skills that could be used in other ways..including armors as the sorcs tended to wear crap anyway, the ability to enchant weapons with fire damage, and the fact that for some odd reason the elemental masteries, ment for her spells, also spilled over onto elemental weapon damage, or damage from auras granted by the right runewords. Things that had nothing to do with her class.

And you complain that it was too hard to do this? That's the entire point of an oddball build. You pick something that technically shouldn't be possible, and then you make it work.

I had a barb based solely on leap attack, he did great. My two fav sorc builds, from way back to when the game just started. Was a tweaker charged bolt caster (let me tell you...that got hard when origionally charged bolt had nothing adding damage to it). And a sorc who used inferno (with a ton of warmth) and was otherwise built to withstand any damage the monsters could stack onto her. Both were amazing, both focused on underused builds, both worked.

I knew a guy who played, once again before the big nasty patches. He did an awesome fury axe barb...two axes and fury thats right. And he not only made it work, but it worked swimmingly.

Later on I kept doing odd builds, as did the entire group I played with. It was fun as heck, and all of our builds did great. Even when the newest patches came in.

However, a path that went against the very idea of what the class was about really had a bunch of problems. But was still viable to make it through.

All skills, in one way or another, had a use. And all of them worked, at least until the end of normal. Which is what it takes to beat the game. Nightmare and hell were harder and were ment only for those who truely wanted a challenge. The fact you were able to take subpar classes into hell mode, and survive. Says something about your playing skill.

I honestly don't see the problem...thats part of the fun of an oddball build...you make it work when in all likelyhood it shouldn't.

[diaBECKtic]

Ok..I don't see the problem.

You picked a class...say..a sorc. Who's ENTIRE set of trees and skills was based almost solely on the idea of attack, at range, with spells. Then she just happened to have a few skills that could be used in other ways..including armors as the sorcs tended to wear crap anyway, the ability to enchant weapons with fire damage, and the fact that for some odd reason the elemental masteries, ment for her spells, also spilled over onto elemental weapon damage, or damage from auras granted by the right runewords. Things that had nothing to do with her class.

And you complain that it was too hard to do this? That's the entire point of an oddball build. You pick something that technically shouldn't be possible, and then you make it work.

I had a barb based solely on leap attack, he did great. My two fav sorc builds, from way back to when the game just started. Was a tweaker charged bolt caster (let me tell you...that got hard when origionally charged bolt had nothing adding damage to it). And a sorc who used inferno (with a ton of warmth) and was otherwise built to withstand any damage the monsters could stack onto her. Both were amazing, both focused on underused builds, both worked.

I knew a guy who played, once again before the big nasty patches. He did an awesome fury axe barb...two axes and fury thats right. And he not only made it work, but it worked swimmingly.

Later on I kept doing odd builds, as did the entire group I played with. It was fun as heck, and all of our builds did great. Even when the newest patches came in.

However, a path that went against the very idea of what the class was about really had a bunch of problems. But was still viable to make it through.

All skills, in one way or another, had a use. And all of them worked, at least until the end of normal. Which is what it takes to beat the game. Nightmare and hell were harder and were ment only for those who truely wanted a challenge. The fact you were able to take subpar classes into hell mode, and survive. Says something about your playing skill.

I honestly don't see the problem...thats part of the fun of an oddball build...you make it work when in all likelyhood it shouldn't.

Well, the thing is there shouldn't be any skills that inherently "shouldn't" work. I think that's a balance problem. Again, we've noticed throughout the patches that the advent of synergies and nerfing of certain skills seemed to make a lot of cookie-cutter builds too effective. I suppose what I'm getting at is that they should improve the balance of skills, rather than funnel power through a select few.

You're still going to likely respond and say "well that's part of the fun." Yeah, to an extent it is, but when there are cool skills that just don't work too well because it seems the developers didn't care too much about them, then I get a bit irritated.

I also disagree with the point that I made bold. Your ability to do that is more a reflection of your "wealth" - if you can afford the gear for a lot of those odd-ball builds, they work wonderfully. I will acquiesce to the fact that this may be an indirect reflection of your skill; however, it seems that these days you don't even need that if you can find a way to either hack or otherwise obtain powerful items.

[lionheart]

I would prefer them to balance the skills as well. I would like to think that the points that i put into something can be of some playable use rather then just powering up other skills leaving these ones just as something to look at but never use

[diaBECKtic]

I would prefer them to balance the skills as well. I would like to think that the points that i put into something can be of some playable use rather then just powering up other skills leaving these ones just as something to look at but never use

Yeah - I suppose that would be the physical (virtual?) manifestation of what I'm getting at. I not being able to do anything until I make a cookie-cutter type magic find character, amassing wealth and THEN trying to build characters I have a lot of fun playing.
:yes:

[Stafir]

Oh no....most of the skills were viable. Enchant? It's a co-op game, you enchant your buddies. The armors were simple. Charged bolt did work decently on mobs, but it was the single critters that caused it problems.

Everything..except for those stupid low level skills like firebolt and icebolt had a decent use later on. But even those could be used to beat the game. Beating the game meaning to kill Diablo (or Baal) in normal.

The thing is..those oddball builds are just that..oddball builds. As I said before...the exact idea behind an oddball build is to do something that the class isn't designed for, using the best of what you got. Or to just use skills to do things that it shouldn't be able to do by all rights.

Yes I think all skills should be useful..as things besides synergies, but many can easily just be specialized to just deal with a certain situation. You'll have problems doing a normal sorceress build, except you try to beat the game with just Teleport. Using just frost armor won't work as well. But if you use the right armor, with teleport, with some masteries, with enchant..maybe thunderstorm as well...get the right weapons. You've suddenly got a sorc build that kills in the oddest way possible (for a sorc). A necromancer, for instance, wasn't built to go melee, they had a few sneak in and attack options, but even those were poor. But if you were skillful, played your cards right, etc, you could go in with a melee necromancer. It would be hard as balls, but you were doing something the necromancer wasn't designed for from the get go. The Necro wasn't ment to be a main tank.

This is where I take my differing in opinion. Each skill had their uses for classes. The oddball classes just took skills that had more specific uses, and tried their best to extend that use as far as possible. Most of the skills in Dii were decently balanced, they just all were ment to be a main skill.

[patriach owen]

as ive got used to saying... you dont p2p for DII so how can you moan what they so to the game?...

but even though... ^^^ yeah original chars are fun like my immence Dodgeazon... max block, great dodge, BEARZON :D... was only good vs druids and babs tho... lol, oh and zealers

[Arbedark]

If someone can get THIS (http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=480035&page=34) to work, anything's viable...

[Gorema]

/agree with tetracycloide and Animation

[jakotaco]

Well, I agree that much of the fun lies in exploring the many "off" builds. Doing what noone thought was possible. As such I think the forced specialisations might not have been the best ideas, although the option to specialise should always be there. And should have a distinct award in really making you better at that one thing than a generalist.

As for necros/witch doctors meleeing. First scene contains proof that the witchdoctor can indeed swing a sword!
http://www.wegame.com/watch/Diablo_3_Gameplay_6_29_08/

[Darker Realm]

I agree Necros should be able to attack with a weapon. War Necro all the way!