Find evidence Tyrael = new boss [Archive] - Diablo 3 & Diablo 2 Forums

Wirt

03-07-2008, 21:10

Hi all,

even when D2 was still a fresh game (after re-installing it AGAIN I think it still is), rumours were that Tyrael had some hidden agenda.
Now my idea is: Tyrael is the end boss in D3 as a fallen angel and I want as much proof as we can find. Please number them so we can refer to them.
Here we go:
1. Tyrael is on the front of D3 pictures everywhere, as were the end bosses Daiblo in D1 and D2, and Baal in LOD.
2. The logo, 3 vertical slices, are coloured from white in the top (Tyrael in heaven) to red in the bottom (Tyrael fallen from heaven to hell).

EDIT:
Forgot 3. Tyrael in the artwork seems to fall from heaven: http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/media/artwork.xml#41
also check the name above the one where Tyrael is drawn in pencil. Why is the name "...blizzard.com/Diablo"?

Wirt

Jaklax

03-07-2008, 21:16

good point.
aslo would like to add my own thoughts.. Being that Tyrael is an angel, could he possibly have resurrected diablo/evil power back to life?
Another things is.. when he destroyed the worldstone, perhaps he absorbed the power or was possessed by it.

kontankarite

03-07-2008, 21:46

No. The display of the sketch, right above it is the "file name".. try highlighting it..

Here's the full address of it.

http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/media/artwork.xml#42

Of course, in the sketch, all you see is htp:/www.blizzard.com/diablo

But if you highlight it, it gives you the full addy.

benf

04-07-2008, 00:03

the worldstone corrupting him is an interesting idea, also, what happened to Baal's soulstone when we destroyed him?

stillman

04-07-2008, 02:29

kontankarite

04-07-2008, 03:58

Tyrael's face is no darker than it always was....

Felix

04-07-2008, 04:03

Tyrael wanted the Worldstone destroyed, he played man and made pacts with the devils for this to be. he betrayed all of them as they died as pawns for his bidding. That black inside his hood, that is an angel no longer holy. We haven't seen heaven yet, we've seen Diablo.

Who ate who?

Iceglow

04-07-2008, 08:15

Could Tyrael be the new character to be corrupted by a soulstone? In that case we may be looking for multible fights with Tyrael. Midway through the game we might encounter him as an "possessed" angel. When setting him free, by defeating him, the "spirit" of big D himself could escape and forcing us to track him down further for the end battle!

What you think?

/Ice

lionheart

04-07-2008, 08:19

The black inside the hood is no proof, if you read the books you know that they are made by pure energy, so he doesn't have a real face so to speak

Tsumaru

04-07-2008, 08:27

1. Tyrael is on the front of D3 pictures everywhere, as were the end bosses Daiblo in D1 and D2, and Baal in LOD.
Tyrael is a big main character who looks cool and we all know. Right now they haven't told us anything about what has happened to the Prime Evils (that is, if they aren't just dead), but they need SOMEONE to stand up front for the game. They chose Tyrael. It makes sense - it doesn't make him evil.

2. The logo, 3 vertical slices, are coloured from white in the top (Tyrael in heaven) to red in the bottom (Tyrael fallen from heaven to hell).
Good VS Evil, Heaven VS Hell. Nothing about Tyrael in some coloured lines.

Forgot 3. Tyrael in the artwork seems to fall from heaven: http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/media/artwork.xml#41
Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see Tyrael falling from Heaven anywhere?

lionheart

04-07-2008, 08:41

kontankarite

04-07-2008, 08:54

The only motivation that I can think of that would make Tyrael even misguided is if he desired to destroy the world stone so that heaven could have a final battle with hell in a very official sense. Since the borders would apparently be demolished now.

Tsumaru

04-07-2008, 15:20

I don't get it why some of you guys want Tyrael to be the bad guy so bad. Did he tick you off that badly in the previous game? lol Or is it just the fact that sooner or later you prefer to kill every single character that has been present in this game...

My friend linked me to a whole bunch of "Tyrael as bad guy" threads on Blizzard forums and stuff. At first he was like "it sounds like a good idea, and it could be right!" Then I promptly pointed out that Tyrael is the most badass character in Diablo II and most people acknowledge his awesomeness, and if Blizzard screwed him up like that they would have a whole bunch of angry fans on their hands, and I would probably plunge into a WoW-style depression due to my disillusionment. My over-the-top dramatic Shakespearean monologue managed to bring him to his senses. Perhaps one day, the posters of these silly topics will come to their senses too.

Alzitar

04-07-2008, 16:01

OKay this is really silly.. Check other peoples posts before posting something like this.. for example:
http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=669195
or a more and improved version:
http://www.diablofans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10603

DWS

04-07-2008, 16:23

I think all this speculation is silly but fun. If you think about it, it's almost too obvious at this point to make Tyreal the villian. It would make the game fun but it would have to be done correctly. Maybe sort of like a reverse Severus Snape where you spend the whole game getting help from him and thinking he's a good guy and then blammo he turns on you.

I am betting on him staying a good guy as he's pretty much the only other good guy alive in Diablo lore other than Deck's himself.

I see that they are using D3 to set up the stroyline and background for WoD. Heaven vs Hell as the 2 factions. Diablo vs a now risen to god-like status Tyreal.

Heck, maybe Tyreal performs the ultimate evil act and overthrows the current heaven leadership and takes it for himself. Maybe they even humanize Diablo and hell so that it's not so cut and dry good/evil.

lionheart

04-07-2008, 16:32

My friend linked me to a whole bunch of "Tyrael as bad guy" threads on Blizzard forums and stuff. At first he was like "it sounds like a good idea, and it could be right!" Then I promptly pointed out that Tyrael is the most badass character in Diablo II and most people acknowledge his awesomeness, and if Blizzard screwed him up like that they would have a whole bunch of angry fans on their hands, and I would probably plunge into a WoW-style depression due to my disillusionment. My over-the-top dramatic Shakespearean monologue managed to bring him to his senses. Perhaps one day, the posters of these silly topics will come to their senses too.

Lol good job in turning at least one into his senses :thumbup: Hopefully others will do too. Don't want the diablo story to turn into a badly written soap opera here...

Alzitar

04-07-2008, 16:49

lionheart

04-07-2008, 22:06

The thing is that so far it is only speculations. Nobody can give any irrefutable fact that he might turn evil right? Im just saying that i find it stupid that most of the speculations are going in this direction. Anyway if it goes like that in the game at the end then i guess you guys with this idea will be happy and i wont, plain and simple lol im not attacking anybody just dont like the prospect of it cause i find it a stupid move from blizzard if they do it :)

Angel_of_Wrath

04-07-2008, 22:45

I think that it is too obvious for Blizzard to implement.. seems too easy of a storyline and cliche. However, because of all the talk about it, they would do well to lead the player to question Tyrael's alignment as the story is revealed.. perhaps you are trying to track him down and you are following his actions, questioning his motives when you see what he has left in his wake.

ELox

04-07-2008, 23:21

One thing I found interesting is on the main diablo3.com page the text beneath "and the heavens shall tremble" ends with some interesting wording.

"The comet carries a dark omen in its fiery being and it calls the heroes of Sanctuary to defend the mortal world against the rising powers of the Burning Hells – and even the failing luminaries of the High Heavens itself."

Could the failing luminaries you need to defend against be referring to Tyrael perhaps?

Tsumaru

05-07-2008, 05:39

Your all talking about what you WANT thats so childish imho.. what you want? Sure I want Tyrael to be good and some might want him to be bad.. but thats totally irrelevant to any true debate, you should only look at the facts at hand and do some research if your truly intrested into wheter or not he will be corrupted.. Check the link I posted above and then judge for yourself

I have read the link and found it to be filled with faulty logic and speculation. There is little actual support for the corrupted Tyrael contention and the whole "This is undeniable, I am clearly right" attitude is far worse and more childish then us talking about how we think it would suck for Tyrael to be bad. We are expressing our personal tastes and opinion, you are stating your beliefs as fact. I have posted responses to all "researched evidence" given in this topic so far, and as soon as I find time I'm sure it won't be too difficult to repeat the same stuff again in your own threads which you keep advertising everywhere.

Thirty-Thirty

05-07-2008, 18:01

Could the failing luminaries you need to defend against be referring to Tyrael perhaps?Of course, but we know with no certainty. We have absolutely no idea what new angels might be introduced, or what this "failure" consists of. Maybe they've decided mankind is a corrupted liability that needs to be purged and Tyrael is at odds in our defense.

Who knows. But real discussions should stick to the more rigorous evidence we have. For example, it's basically sure as sunrise that Belial and Azmodan will feature prominently at least at the beginning of D3, based on the interview with a Blizzard employee. Forgot which, though.

Cyborgasm

05-07-2008, 18:14

The black inside the hood is no proof, if you read the books you know that they are made by pure energy, so he doesn't have a real face so to speak

http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/_images/artwork/ss42-hires.jpg

^Face^

lionheart

06-07-2008, 00:29

http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/_images/artwork/ss42-hires.jpg

^Face^

Then they are just screwing around with what they said has be taken as canon (the books) in regards to the diablo universe...

Meimu

06-07-2008, 00:41

I equate these threads to other people seeing the Virgin Mary in a grilled cheese sandwich. =P You see what you want to see, to make it (what you believe) fit.

Tyrael being corrupt, or having his own hidden agenda has been proposed long before the announcement of D3, and it is as possible then as it is now. All of this is pointless speculation that holds no weight.

KiLLJOi

06-07-2008, 01:43

but the possibility is still there, and we can still enjoy the suspense of it all until we know for sure:alright:

Cyborgasm

06-07-2008, 02:23

I've been thinking maybe Tyrael has been thrown out of heaven and is now mortal for interfering in Sanctuarys affairs. Not weak but his powers may be limited and he is bound to the Mortal plane until(obviously) death. Mainly there as an advise/quest giver but might help side by side in some battles, angel on angel action anyone? Possible explaination for his "wing inconsistancies" as of late and seeing his face there.

Tsumaru

06-07-2008, 11:53

My monitor must be dark or the contrast down or something, because I don't see a face in that picture. =(

EDIT: Alright, threw it into photoshop. Now I see the face! Crazy... Tyrael just doesn't seem right with a face. I dunno... any possibility that this isn't Tyrael? >_> I'm gonna have to ensure I don't fix my monitor. I don't want to see a face ever again! I HAVE BEEN DISILLUSIONED!

Thirty-Thirty

06-07-2008, 12:45

http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/_images/artwork/ss42-hires.jpg

^Face^
Okay, I also brightened it to see the "face", and I acknowledge that there is something that can reasonably be regarded as a face.

I'm going to put out a crazy solution to this: the artist isn't aware of the canon. The face, I'd say, is an outline, rather than shaded. He's probably seen many images of Tyrael (or another angel), and presented a new shiny concept drawing for the modellers etc. Uncertain of the face status (since he's only ever seen the darkened hood), he's outlined one in the event that angels have faces. Apparently, the books say they don't, but the artist might not know that.

I know this sounds like I just don't want to believe any evidence of a corrupted Tyrael, but I'm just giving another slant on when people start making claims based on these things. (There's a lot of speculation based on the artwork.)

Brother Laz

06-07-2008, 19:09

Not to be annoying, but Tyrael has nothing to do with evil, and neither does the Worldstone.

If you're thinking evil angel, try Imperius or Malthael, who would have Sanctuary destroyed without remorse because humanity are abominations. Heaven isn't as nice as people think. Tyrael (who isn't 'rebellious' for no reason) did not just shatter the Worldstone because Baal got to it first, but also to free humanity from the mind lock that kept them out of the eternal war as active participants (though not as victims) because humanity had fought like lions against the Hells and it was, in fact, Heaven's fault that they had to struggle so badly.

Okay, maybe Tyrael got hit by a flying piece of Baal or corrupted Worldstone or whatever. That would make no sense, and then the kids could have their Tyrael boss.

I suspect things may run more like the Sin War trilogy: humanity trying to liberate itself from all external influence, whether it be hell or heaven. First the Three, then the Angiris Council. Good riddance, I say.

lionheart

06-07-2008, 19:18

I would love it if it goes sin war trilogy style, that would be a good plot indeed :)

Thirty-Thirty

06-07-2008, 19:46

If you're thinking evil angel, try Imperius or Malthael, who would have Sanctuary destroyed without remorse because humanity are abominations.I haven't read the books, but I was imagining Blizzard inventing some faction of Heaven that sees humanity and Sanctuary as a complication to the war, rather than a potential ally. Sounds like there are already some angels to choose from who aren't to fond of we mortals.

jakotaco

06-07-2008, 20:52

I used to see Tyrael as a person that might very well have some hidden agenda...

I didn't know Tyrael was supposed to destroy the Worldstone...

Quotes like these made me think he'd played us as pawns as Baal blocked his presence in the Worldstone Chamber. Tricking him to get access to it.

However, now I don't think of him as a potential villain anymore, more like a rogue angel. Sort of like most of the characters in the original starcraft campaign (Jim Raynor, Edmund Duke, and even more so the Protoss Tassadar and Zeratul.)

We all know how Blizzard likes the story of the rogue good guys that goes against their superiors in order to save the world from the powerhungry. cold-blooded or simply corrupted in the higher ranks.

Thirty-Thirty

06-07-2008, 21:03

Nevermind the Queen of Blades overthrowing the Overmind, and many of the Warcraft heroes.

GUFF

07-07-2008, 04:01

My guesses are:

Tyrael is still a good guy.

He "fell" from Heaven during it's fall, injured yet carring something special. Baal's soulstone.

Frail and weak he looks again to mortal men to help him...

He crashes into Tristam with Hell on his heels, meeting once again with Deckard Cain and his new "friend".

Heaven's most guarded secrets were already given to the three by the fallen angel Izual. Diablo who somehow survived and created a large army found the way into heaven and ransacked it, gaining unimagineable power. With this power he gained the ability to once again reunite the prime evil's. The victory is gained by ripping baal's soulstone from Tyreal's limp hand...

These are all guesses but I think a few of them have some merit.

Paladuck

07-07-2008, 12:12

Is there a single character in the game that's multi-dimensional other than Tyreal?

Everyone is either GOOD, EVIL, or EVIL (but-I-used-to-be-good).

I like the fact that Tyreal is an angel, a supreme being that seems to be a little too invested in mortal affairs. I hope they flesh him out some more.

WraithCaller

08-07-2008, 01:45

I think the most-likely scenario is that comet is Tyreal being cast out of heaven for his meddling in mortal realm, considering he is the only angel that seems to actually care about humanity.

The 'failing luminares' line makes me think that the leadership of Heaven has become ineffectual and unconcerned with the fate of mortals. I don't know whether that means we'll be facing angels as well as demons, but it does give the heroes a reason to fight and protect their world, since the Heavens won't defend them anymore.

Ampersand

08-07-2008, 03:10

DON'T turn him evil... we have enough fallen angels already. Not only is it extremely cliché but it would also make it seem like all angels are weak if more "converts".

Tyrael should stay good, let them make some other twists to the story that are a little less predictable imo.

ThulRasha

08-07-2008, 15:33

Jay Wilson more or less already told us :s

http://kotaku.com/5020721/the-man-behind-diablo-iii-talks-plot-lore-and-battlenet

Jay Wilson: In the previous two games, Diablo and his two brothers, Mephisto and Baal, were the three Prime Evils of a world called Sanctuary. Where we start off in Diablo III, it’s twenty years later (after Diablo II: Lord of Destruction) and the brothers are gone, they’ve been vanquished. Essentially everyone was kind of geared for Hell to actually invade. At the end of Lord of Destruction, the Worldstone was destroyed, it left a giant crater and everyone was expecting the hordes to come pouring out of it and nothing happened. So, Deckard Cain is one of our main characters from the first two games, he’s spent the last two decades trying to find out where the last two Evils are, what they’re doing and why the invasion didn’t happen. A lot of the rest of the story focuses on Tyrael, the Angel of Justice, and what’s happened to him since that event as he was actually the angel who destroyed the world.

So, a lot of the story about Tyrael, and the name of the game is Diablo, hmmmm......

Tsumaru

08-07-2008, 15:54

I have to tell you - that means absolutely nothing to me. They can easily make a story involving Tyrael as a main character without making him corrupted by flying shards of worldstone and becoming evil and/or Diablo incarnate. "A lot of the rest" is really not a whole lot at all. Maybe it just sounds like I'm pulling at straws here, but I'm really just not convinced. I mean, I can take the same paragraph and bold here...

Jay Wilson: In the previous two games, Diablo and his two brothers, Mephisto and Baal, were the three Prime Evils of a world called Sanctuary. Where we start off in Diablo III, it’s twenty years later (after Diablo II: Lord of Destruction) and the brothers are gone, they’ve been vanquished. Essentially everyone was kind of geared for Hell to actually invade. At the end of Lord of Destruction, the Worldstone was destroyed, it left a giant crater and everyone was expecting the hordes to come pouring out of it and nothing happened. So, Deckard Cain is one of our main characters from the first two games, he’s spent the last two decades trying to find out where the last two Evils are, what they’re doing and why the invasion didn’t happen. A lot of the rest of the story focuses on Tyrael, the Angel of Justice, and what’s happened to him since that event as he was actually the angel who destroyed the world.

And voila! Suddenly it's ACTUALLY about Deckard Cain, Azmodan and Belial!

ThulRasha

08-07-2008, 15:58

I have to tell you - that means absolutely nothing to me. They can easily make a story involving Tyrael as a main character without making him corrupted by flying shards of worldstone and becoming evil and/or Diablo incarnate. "A lot of the rest" is really not a whole lot at all. Maybe it just sounds like I'm pulling at straws here, but I'm really just not convinced. I mean, I can take the same paragraph and bold here...

And voila! Suddenly it's ACTUALLY about Deckard Cain, Azmodan and Belial!

That is a bit weak, since it doesn't say that a lot of the story is about it.
For Tyrael, he did say exactly that.

I didn't make that part bold to somehow try and make it more true, I made it bold so that other people can more easily see what I was talking about.

Edit: In fact, the part that you made bold indicates what Diablo3 will not be about. Since it already happened, those last 2 decades are already history now. That said, I'm positive that Azmodan and Belial will play a big role in D3.

Evoknox

08-07-2008, 16:00

Yesterday, I went through act 5 and read some interesting stuff the NPC's said.

Anya for example said something along the lines of this:

"Hmm, he destroyed the worldstone? The prophecys don't mention anything like that..."

Tsumaru

08-07-2008, 16:22

I didn't make that part bold to somehow try and make it more true, I made it bold so that other people can more easily see what I was talking about.
Didn't mean to suggest you did it intentionally, but it's one of those "Jesus toast" type things people have been bringing up a lot lately. If you *want* to see it, you will see it. A lot of the 'evidence' given for the Tyrael evil theory is confirmation bias. I've read posts which say "if we take it for true that Tyrael is corrupted, then X ALSO makes sense" and they use it as evidence. But for it to be used as evidence, you already have to take the theory for truth in the first place. Any other number of theories could have X make sense within them, but they make it sound as if it's real evidence. But as I said, most of the time it's just confirmation bias.

That is a bit weak, since it doesn't say that a lot of the story is about it.
For Tyrael, he did say exactly that.
Depends how you want to read it. If you look again, what he says the storyline is about is the following:
"So, Deckard Cain is one of our main characters from the first two games, he’s spent the last two decades trying to find out where the last two Evils are, what they’re doing and why the invasion didn’t happen. A lot of the rest of the story focuses on Tyrael, the Angel of Justice, and what’s happened to him since that event as he was actually the angel who destroyed the world."
If I choose to focus on that bolded part, all we have is the following:
1. A certain portion of it is based on Belial and Azmodan, and Cain's search
2. A certain portion of it is based on something else yet unnamed
3. The remainder of it is based on Tyrael and what he's been doing
Without really having any idea on what those portions are, we can't actually say that *a lot* of the story revolves around Tyrael.

However I agree that this argument is fairly weak. But I'm just saying we can all choose to read into his words any way we want. I never denied D3 would be about Tyrael. All I'm saying is that a lot of the arguments to suggest he is corrupted are just as weak as mine to suggest he's not. I mean, seriously:
"A lot of the rest of the story focuses on Tyrael, the Angel of Justice, and what’s happened to him since that event as he was actually the angel who destroyed the world."
I mean, where in that do we actually get that he's evil? That whole negative connotation of "the angel who destroyed the word"? Maybe. But why did he bring to our attention the fact that he is also "the Angel of Justice"? I'm not seeing out in clear attention that Tyrael is evil. Maybe everyone THINKS he is in-game just like you all do on the forums, but in reality he was doing what was best for mankind. Maybe Heaven exiles him for all his interferences, and yes - he is the meteor who crashes. But he crashes due to his banishment for interfering, not due to being a fallen angel who has been corrupted.

I just get this feeling that all along Tyrael has been set up as the rogue - but the good rogue. In another thread, someone drew parallels to characters such as Jim Raynor and Tassadar in the Starcraft series. This makes a lot of sense to me. I just don't see them turning around and saying Tyrael is evil - whether he has just become evil or was evil all along (as have some suggested).

ThulRasha

08-07-2008, 16:57

Depends how you want to read it. If you look again, what he says the storyline is about is the following:
"So, Deckard Cain is one of our main characters from the first two games, he’s spent the last two decades trying to find out where the last two Evils are, what they’re doing and why the invasion didn’t happen. A lot of the rest of the story focuses on Tyrael, the Angel of Justice, and what’s happened to him since that event as he was actually the angel who destroyed the world."
If I choose to focus on that bolded part, all we have is the following:
1. A certain portion of it is based on Belial and Azmodan, and Cain's search
2. A certain portion of it is based on something else yet unnamed
3. The remainder of it is based on Tyrael and what he's been doing
Without really having any idea on what those portions are, we can't actually say that *a lot* of the story revolves around Tyrael.

However I agree that this argument is fairly weak. But I'm just saying we can all choose to read into his words any way we want.

Of course one can choose how to read it, but let me point out the folowing:

Cain's search has been in those 20 years. And that is all that Jay Wilson says about it. He says that in the previous 2 games Cain was a major character and the last 2 decades he spent time researching where those last demons are hiding out.
So that means it already happened before we start out in Diablo3.
Cain already has his information, or at the most requires us to help find the last pieces of information. After that he will sent us out to hunt down Belial and Azmodean.
Now you could asume that a very big part (mor than 50%) of the Diablo3 story is about them, but to me that would be very disapointing, and I doubt it, since we were already told we had to battle more than 2 of the evils.

If Tyrael did not play a very big part, Jay would not have said "and a lot of the rest of the story". Instead he would have said: "and the rest of the story".

I mean, where in that do we actually get that he's evil?

No idea, I for sure never said that.

Thirty-Thirty

08-07-2008, 17:27

I mean, where in that do we actually get that he's evil?I think the idea is fueled by the "failing luminaries" line on the official site, rather than anything in any interview. If Tyrael is corrupt, I'm sure it's something we'll only learn in actually playing the game. Blizzard won't say a word about it.

Tsumaru

08-07-2008, 17:46

If Tyrael is corrupt, I'm sure it's something we'll only learn in actually playing the game. Blizzard won't say a word about it.
I totally agree. Which is why I'm not buying a lot of the evidence people come up with as if it's all so very clear and obvious.

I mean, where in that do we actually get that he's evil?
No idea, I for sure never said that.
Oh, sorry. I just assumed that's what you were indicating. Well, I never denied that Tyrael would be a big part of the game. I assumed that from the start. I figured you thought the interview supported the whole Tyrael = bad guy thing. Whatever.

mouseman

08-07-2008, 18:12

lionheart

08-07-2008, 21:15

Imakegoboom

08-07-2008, 23:06

Nothing special, really.

I'd like to point out that Diablo and Mephisto have been destroyed. If you didn't remember, their essences were bound to the soulstones, shards of the worldstone. All three were killed in their mortal plane manifestations. And if you care to watch the final cinematic of the Classic Diablo 2, Marius remarks on their soulstones being destroyed. There is video to go along with it, of a hammer smashing both into pieces. Verily, I feel pressured to assume that Diablo and Mephisto, at least, are finished, because the remains of their essence were quite smashed.

Now, we can't say the same for Baal. From what has been revealed about Diablo 3 so far, we are pointed towards the assumption that he is dead, too. Or, at least, everyone assumes he is dead. Take your pick. Facts are, he was killed. There is nothing to suggest that his soulstone was destroyed. There is little to suggest that it wasn't, either. What was destroyed was the WORLDSTONE, the artifact that protected sanctuary from the scrutiny of the burning hells. This has been confirmed in the novelizations. Now, with the worldstone destroyed, that freedom from scrutiny has been compromised. What does that mean? Hell can see sanctuary. They know where it is.
(I'm setting aside other implications for the moment. Bear with me.)

Now, this Meteor that crashes into Tristram may well be a medium for the denizens of hell to come to Sanctuary.Why it took them two decades to get there is questionable, and Cain was already trying to figure it out. What we know is that Azmodan and/or Belial is likely the one responsible. The have both been confirmed to have a role in the game. Diablo has NOT. My thoughts are that one of the two is having trouble in the war to take over hell, and makes a desperate bid for escape to Sanctuary. Maybe he can find a tool to use against the other. After all, Humanity has a side in this. They are the descendants of the Nephalem, the spawn of heaven and hell, potentially superior to both. If diablo 1 and 2 have told us anything, humanity, even if watered down Nephalem, has been making great impacts on the war between heaven and hell. So perhaps that one Great Evil came to Sanctuary to more directly to convert more of humanity to his side, for use against the other one, still in hell. But the heroes of D3 step in and manage to kill him. With the Great Evil on Sanctuary dead, we breathe a sigh of relief. But not for long. With all other threats out of the way, the other Great Evil is left with control over the whole of hell, and the player characters will have to enter that domain to defeat the last Great Evil. Whether Diablo will play into this remains to be seen. However, it is a slim chance, seeing as he has been utterly destroyed, from what Blizzard has told us. However, it would be a great twist.

That's all I'll say for now, as I am out of time. However, I'll return with more speculation later.

Thirty-Thirty

09-07-2008, 00:02

And if you care to watch the final cinematic of the Classic Diablo 2, Marius remarks on their soulstones being destroyed. There is video to go along with it, of a hammer smashing both into pieces. Verily, I feel pressured to assume that Diablo and Mephisto, at least, are finished, because the remains of their essence were quite smashed.To cut a long story short, have a look around the forums. I - and others - don't think that destroying a soulstone destroys the spirit contained, but rather releases it. Also, Marius says that he heard that Diablo's soulstone was destroyed. That can still be twisted around for Big D to make a comeback, presuming that destroying the soulstone killed him.

Yours in an interesting and new spin, but I don't think it coincides well with what scant evidence is available at the moment. I agree that Belial and Azmodan have a role to play (as implied by that interview I can never find...), but I feel it just wouldn't be Diablo without the last boss being Diablo...

tlim

09-07-2008, 05:54

These are my theories. Once again, they are pure speculation, so unless the game comes out, there is no way I (or anyone else) can come up with concrete proof for anything.

Speculation 1
Ever since the worldstone was destroyed, Heaven and Hell were in battle.
Evidence
1. There has been no attack on Sanctuary for 20 years, which could mean that Hell is engaged in something else.
2. Diablo rose from a comet from the sky, and not from the ground, meaning that he arrived in Sanctuary from Heaven, not Hell.

Speculation 2
Some angels were either corrupted by Hell, or were forced to do the bidding of Hell in attacking Sanctuary.
Evidence
1. Self-explanatory quote: 'Failing luminaries of the High Heavens'.
2. This is not exactly evidence, but from Blizzard's track record, they've always introduced new 'concepts' with sequels (such as the inclusion of undead, nightelves, naga in WC3, and the introduction of Mephisto and Baal in D2). Fighting demons, even with new varieties of them, would be nothing new or drastic. Therefore I think it is likely that fighting angels will be included as their new concept in D3, and what other way would an angel turn against Sanctuary other than a fallen angel?

Speculation 3
The destruction of the Worldstone is what the Prime Evils wanted.
Evidence
According to the barbarian prophecy,
'And so it was foretold that the Three, once reunited, would be shattered again—
Their defeat would be illusory—that the final gambit had yet to be played'
Since the Prime Evil's main plan in D2 isn't to take over Sanctuary directly, but to corrupt the Worldstone (their final gambit), we can infer that the Worldstone is likely to have some new unknown implications towards their battle against Heaven, which had been their ultimate target since eons ago.

Speculation 4
Tyrael does not turn to the dark side.

I have no evidence for this, but in all massively popular stories, there has to be at least one supporting but recurring character who is righteous, wise, and utterly infallible in character. Gandalf, Dumbledore, Yoda are examples. In WC3, there is Cenarius. Taking Tyrael (whom players have looked up to for the first 2 games) away from the side of Light isn't a very good move, story-wise.

So, in conclusion, this is my theory: After the destruction of the Worldstone (which was created by an archangel in the first place), the powers of Heaven were weakened, allowing Hell to have the upper hand during their battles. After 20 years of battle, Heaven loses the fight. Many angels were corrupted by the Prime Evils and turned to the dark side. Therefore Sanctuary is under siege by both Hell and Heaven.

I believe the aims of the game would first be to free Tyrael and help turn the tide in Heaven before finally attacking Hell. Sort of like in war of the ancients in warcraft lore where the dragons and the demigods were enlisted before the fought against the burning legion.

Anyway, this is a long post. Thanks if you bothered to read it.

Thirty-Thirty

09-07-2008, 15:57

I disagree with speculation two, purely in that I don't think angels need to be corrupted for us to quarrel with them. They might just think that mankind is a liability rather than an asset, or that some humans are best slain before they are corrupted (like Arthas and that infected village in WC3).

But I do agree that we'll be seeing more angels, and that we may well find ourselves fighting them.

Apocalypse

11-07-2008, 01:14

Tyreal's face is ominously black under the hood. But even if he is a bad guy, there is no way he will be the end boss, imo. They reused some of the same old story ideas: rescuing Cain, evil returning to tristram, etc. It follows that Diablo will be the end boss, just like always.

my one thought has been, if tyreal is indeed bad now we wont even fight him in d3. my thinking is during the events of the game we will slowly(maybe not so much) find out that it was he who brought hell back to our world. we would come to find out that he was behind it all and he has just been sitting and waiting for the right time to bring hell back. i mean people keep saying "why 20 years later" well if you lost a fight would you go right back and try again or would you sit there knowing you are eternal and mortals are not. just wait, let everyone that had power to stop you die off, then when the world believe it only a myth thats when you come back.

to finish my thought on tyreal being bad, if he is indeed bad we will fight him in the xpac while d3 ends again with diablo

Bob_TheMadCow

11-07-2008, 09:19

1) Wow, my login still works :) not posted in a looooooooooooong time.

2) anyone else think Tyreal has hooves in this: http://www.worldofwar.net/n/415272/tyrael-is-fetching-a-good-price

looks like hooves to me.

He wouldn't be the first angel coorupted by hell and as has been pointed out it was never explained what happened to Baal's soulstone. Diablo did play him like a fool getting him to give Marius Baal's soulstone to get it into hell without the heros stomping all over it as they invariably would have otherwise. "You didn't fail Marius. You did exactly as you were supposed to do."

If you thought Baal was powerful with Tal Rasha's body, just imagine what he could do with an Angel's.

I did see other concept art linked in this thread that shows him with normal shoes though, so maybe I'm imagining it.

DoomBoy

11-07-2008, 11:20

maybe Tyrael has a brother.

vendrox

11-07-2008, 12:35

People want Tyrael to be evil because of the pure awesomeness he is as good.

Imagine him evil, RAWRSOME! etc etc.

All I know is that I'm gonna keel the boss over and over, no matter who it is :D

Vazhael

23-07-2008, 11:39

I believe..that everyone talking about Tyrael being "evil" or "good" is ridiculous. you cannot simply make plain statements like that. If D3 is going to be as..well.."deep" as we all think its going to be, then I think you need to ponder more then that...my opinion is that Tyrael is going to become a renegade like one of you mentioned earlier, and he will "appear" as a bad guy for some of the actions he will make, seeing as how neither heaven nor hell have anything good to do for humanity..its my belief that with his help, the player in D3 will try and sever ties with both realms completely..making human beings liable for their own destinies and fates without either side making any mark this way or that. You most likely will fight hellish demons of course, but when heaven realizes you plan on severing their ability to alter or even affect the mortal realm, they will see this as a slight to their divine rights and attempt to stop you, so no, you dont fight "Corrupted" anything in this game. that's been done to death honestly. I believe you fight the demons, you fight the angels, you fight everyone and slowly but surely humanity itself are your only allies, the message of the story being about taking hold of your own fate rather then fighting for the "powers that be" and Tyrael realizes how all sides affect humanity only for the worse, that they are far more ...self-sufficient then even he realized and there you go. I think that is the most probably D3 storyline. forget this "evil" or "corrupt" nonsense.

Grawner

23-07-2008, 14:09

yeah, i think so as well.. i mean, that you have to fight both heaven and hell, therefore no one can really corrupt heaven, when heaven itself corrupts.

Dwovar

23-07-2008, 23:30

Now, I trusted Tyrael right up until that worldstone bit. You know, that whole "thanks for stopping the three, here's your portal to paradise, run along now, daddy has work to do" speech? That seemed shady. I was actually convinced that one of the three had not been destroyed and was pulling a fast one.

Unfounded Theorm 1
Tyrael did not destroy the world stone. It was one of the other demons (isn't the lord of lies still on the lam?). After all, the lesser 4 cast the greater 3 out of hell a long time ago. Duriel and Andariel crossed the line in D2, but I'm guess Belial and Azmodeus were at work, countering and subverting the three.

So, the theory? Tyrael guided us for a long bitter fight through D2 and D2 LoD. Whatever Baal wanted to corrupt the worldstone for would have given him power over the hells. Azmodeus (or Belial, if he's the lord of lies) scammed the D2 LoD Hero and sent him to his oblivion with that last portal. Tyrael get's his wrists slapped for buggering up so badly (not to mention the bad PR of Tyrael destroying the worldstone). Tyrael is exiled and tries to seek out the D2 hero. You spent all of D2 chasing the hero of D1, it would be a nice tradition to follow up on.

Theorm Based on No Facts at All

The Lord of Lies (I'm gonna keep asuming thats azmo) and Belial (the lord of something else) are at odds. Marcus is not the sniveling simpleton we had prior believed. He is Azmo, tagging along with Diablo to wrest secrets and power from him. It stands to reason that no one is as terrifying as diablo, destructive as Baal, or hateful as Mephisto, so I think the lord of lies could pull this off.

Not really a full fledged theorm, but an idea as to how so many things could go so wrong. I mean, where does Tyrael get all of his information in D2? Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarcuuuuuuuuuus!

Telzen

25-07-2008, 06:25

Tyrael is being corrupted by the worldstone same way Diablo 1 hero was corrupted by the soulstone. The reason hell isn't invaded is because Tyrael has been able to fight back and contain the corruptive forces of the worldstone within. But not anymore.. Twenty years is too long a time for even an arch-angel.

And people saying things like this as if they were fact is why these crazy rumors spread. I agree with Tsumaru, I'm glad there are some others who see there is really no evidence that Tyrael is evil.

a brick

27-07-2008, 08:52

I really don't know anything about lore but all of this is very internesting to me.

Here goes,
Heaven doesn't seem like a very nice place, and possibly casts out Tyrael for whatever reason.
Meanwhile tho, the real story develops as Hell begins its battles again...
I think Tyrael might either seek refuge or give warning to humanity about what is coming and offer any help he can. He has a past of helping out humanity even tho all the other angels don't really seem to give a damn.
Tyrael the messanger sounds like a possibility to me.

I have no idea, but i think it could make sense? Maybe?

nSin

27-07-2008, 11:14

The only problem I have with Tyreal being the main evil is the following.

Tyreal would kill himself if he ever got the impression he was the host of the prime evils or was getting corrupted. There's some interesting stuff with this... As everyone has read as well Hell didn't invade the mortal realm in the 20 years - this must somehow be linked to Tyreal so maybe he couldn't kill himself because hell would have... unleashed hell... on the mortal realm.

Either way, it is certain that Tyreal came to the mortal realm to give out a warning, he knows something is going to happen, I seriously doubt he is corrupted though; he wouldn't allow that to happen.

Telzen

28-07-2008, 08:25

Saint Anger

28-07-2008, 10:26

Do we know if angels can even be corrupted? Since humans are angel/demon hybrids it makes since that they can be corrupted. But can an angel? I mean that angel in act 4 wasn't really corrupted right? Wasn't he just placed in a demons body as punishment?

"For his transgressions, Izual's spirit was bound within the form of a terrible creature which was summoned from the Abyss."

You know you've played too much Diablo when you can place that quote right from the bat and fill in the rest of the dialoge yourself :scratchchin: . From that same dialogue:

Tyrael: "He became a corrupt shadow of his former self - a fallen angel trusted neither by Heaven nor Hell. [followed by your quote]"

Izual: "Tyrael was a fool to have trusted me!

You see, it was I who told Diablo and his Brothers about the Soulstones and how to corrupt them. It was I who helped the Prime Evils mastermind their own exile to your world.[...]" Which would imply Izual has been corrupted.

So, it would seem it is indeed possible for angels to become corrupted (don't know about archangels, though). I'm sure Izual would have killed himself if he'd had the chance before being tortured and reduced to a ruined and malevolent state of life, the same goes for Inarius when he was dragged off to the lower hells where he was tortured, placed in a room with mirrors everywhere and his eyelids torn off so he has to look at his twisted and deformed shape for the rest of eternity ... (though he wasn't corrupted in the same way as Izual, but was still 'rogue')

Thirty-Thirty

28-07-2008, 12:28

Goldey

28-07-2008, 13:17

I've been reading all this stuff about Tyrael being evil...
I grew up with this game, and Tyrael was my favorite character. D:
If he turns out to be evil, I am going to be a very very sad panda.
Seriously, there could be tears.

Saint Anger

28-07-2008, 16:17

I think there's a subtle difference between your uses of "corrupted". It's about whether you choose to help the Evils, or whether their spirits twisted you into doing so. It's a weird distinction to make, but it's like saying Izual would've become a bad guy even if the Evils weren't able to twist people's arms.

I aknowledge the nuance, but Izual doesn't seem to regret his 'treachery' much when you talk to him after his demise. It would seem (to me) that the Evils effectively succeeded in corrupting him beyond just physical appearance.

I'm not saying Izual would've been twisted if he hadn't been captured by the Evils - that is indeed very much debatable and I think he wouldn't - but he was captured, and he was twisted (and imo corrupted) because of it.

I will admit it is a subtle nuance, but in the end Izual was still corrupted, even though it wasn't through his own free will. (I see corruption in the broad sense of the word of 'going bad', as something that can be "attained" both through own free will and by being forced on someone from external forces. I'd like to compare this to the LOTR Elves who were captured by Melkor/Morgoth and twisted into the Orcs, a ruined and corrupted form of life).