Aggro Implementation+Char Request

[Shivoc]

I hope to see a WoW type aggro mechanic implemented into Diablo 3. I hated fighting one of the Prime Evils as a sorc or something and just by getting close you get attacked. They should take in the distance as a dynamic of the aggro but also have damage and aggro attacks. Make the barbarian a tank, the paladin a type of healer, and and the rest damage classes.

They say they want to make the game more cooperative and lets be honest, in Diablo 2 you prayed or played a zon or sorc for fast clearing. A barb's WW can only go so far and hit so many. Give him a more important role.

I hate to say it and I'll admit. I played WoW for a good 4 years. Very strong. I was a hardcore end game raider, but I finally got away, and for good. But I would love to see this game steer a lot in that direction. There's nothing wrong with it. WoW is a groundbreaking revolutionary game. If you deny that, you've never played it to the extent I have or you haven't played it at all. I hope they take all they can from WoW, but they can leave the Orcs.

[Nimbostratus]

Would you mind explaining the "aggro" thing a little better? I've never played WoW, and thus have no idea what you're talking about.

As for the characters, no way. Cooperation is nice. Being forced into specific roles is definitely not. Besides, keep in mind that single player exists, so you can't focus everything on having a party.

[Shivoc]

Aggro stands for aggression. As in aggression towards an opposing force.

In WoW, a tank has special abilities to gain a bosses primary aggro or aggression towards so the monster focuses mainly on him. The tank must be strong and members must work to keep him alive. Damage plays a parts, as well as heals and buffs. So if a tank has a hypothetical aggro rating of 17 on a monster, and a mage or something deals a ton of damage and surpasses the tank with maybe 20 or more for a long period of time, the boss would change his aggression and go for the mage. Now, there is by no means numbers on the screen on WoW that say 17 and 20, I'm making an example, but there is insane forumlae that blizzard came up with to determine how much aggro is stacked up. I feel that would be a big help in this game.


Although, I was hoping for D3 to be a MMO that is basicly a replica of WoW, but with Diablo lore, environment, and characters.

[Arkansaw]

wtf...replica WoW????? we don't need wow fanboys to hijack diablo gameplay. that's was probably why we rejected wow in the first place

[Shivoc]

Wow fanboy? Yes. I am a fan of WoW. And you'd be stupid to make fun of such. WoW is by far the most successful game ever created. Its gameplay, dynamics, and features are flawless. Remember, to the base, Diablo and WoW are the same creators. Dont forget that. To think they wont and shouldnt take ideas from WoW is preposterous.

Oh and "Why we rejected wow in the first place"? I bet 80% of people on these forums plays WoW at one time or another and would not regret the time they played.

I'm not defending WoW in anyway, numbnut. I am stating the obvious.

[Arkansaw]

Numbnut? The fact that you are pushing for a LOLWAT replica already render your views a non-event

[Shivoc]

Again, your rebuttal is pointless. Just leave my thread.

[cbr]

Lol aggro, go back to WoW and stop trying to rape our game mechanics. Next thing you'll make a thread for a healer class.

[Sein Schatten]

Can we discuss this more friendly? If you do not like his proposals, just say so calmly.
There already is a rudimentary aggro mechanic in D2. At least for player and merc.
I, personally, do not like the holy trinity. It is unimaginative and boring. You can make games without the need of it. SG:W or, for a better interpretation of it, WAR. There, at least the healer have to be in the midst of battle.
But D3 is not this kind of game and won't need the holy trinity. In fact, I think it would be detrimental to it.

[lidon]

I hope to see a WoW type aggro mechanic implemented into Diablo 3.

I do hope that they add more depth to the combat, but I don't think that this is the answer. MMOs do this already, and there are plenty of MMOs to play.

WoW is by far the most successful game ever created. Its gameplay, dynamics, and features are flawless.

I'm sorry, but it's hard to take you seriously when you state stuff like this as if it's fact.

I, personally, do not like the holy trinity. It is unimaginative and boring.
...
But D3 is not this kind of game and won't need the holy trinity. In fact, I think it would be detrimental to it.

I disagree that it is "unimaginative and boring", but I do think it has been done to death (if that is what you meant, then we are in agreement).

The aggro mechanic was designed around the idea that some content required a group effort to complete. Keep in mind that unlike MMOs, the Diablo series was just as much for single-players as it was for multi-players. Every class should be able to solo its way through the entire game. As such, there isn't really a place for the aggro mechanic in Diablo, since there should not be any content that requires a group.

[jakotaco]

Eww... I certainly hope they do not under any circumstances add MMO-like aggro effects. Seriously why would a dozen carvers stand about doing nothing while you poind down them one at a time? Diablo is about fighting hordes of enemies at once, not static tank/dps/healing. There are plenty of those games already.. and in my personal opinion the combat in those games is way to linear and slow-paced.

I want diablo3, not "WoW2: Realms of Diablo"

[sicilian]

The problem with having tank/healer/dps in Diablo is, as others have mentioned, is that you're meant to be able to complete the game on your own with any class. If you make a healer class, how will they kill enemies? In WoW, you could do that because it was primarily a group game, and people didn't mind that the healer classes killed slower because they had less downtime between fights (due to healing).

In Diablo, having one class kill noticably slower solo would mean that class doesn't get played unless it's grouped.

D2 already has the tank/damage dynamic to some degree, except it's possible to fulfill either role with any class. If I really wanted to, I could load up a Sorceress with Energy Shield and stand close enough to draw the enemy attention, while a Barbarian throws stuff at them. It's generally not the most efficient way to kill groups, but on certain bosses might work.

The strategies are more open-ended that way. If you pidgeon-hole classes into roles like tank, healer, dps, utility, etc, you eliminate the diversity of player created group tactics.

[phool]

Actually I way prefer GW's aggro system. Aggro management in GW is far less about the skills you give your toons and far more about your skills as a player and your team's skills. Tank's don't get an explicit 'attack me' skill... instead they get a cancelable self heal that doubles incoming damage, wasd and knockdowns. Cloths rely on snares, caution and kiting. I'd hate to see GW dumbed down in the manner of WoW.

D2 doesn't handle aggro very simplistically... except for act bosses who have a peculiar tendency to pick one party member to rage on, everything just basically heads for its nearest enemy after aggro checks (which will happen mostly if stunned/fhrd etc). Enemy AI is trivial to exploit as a result but tbh that's ok. Changing the default behaviour and then adding directly AI altering pvm-only skills like confuse and attract doesn't improve the game, even ignoring the fact Diablo is a solo-centric game.

WoW is by far the most successful game ever created. Its gameplay, dynamics, and features are flawless.

Lol'd...

[konfeta]

To think they wont and shouldnt take ideas from WoW is preposterous.

You will find people like me who are all for taking good ideas from WoW, but aggro and class roles is, by far and large, not one of them.

Diablo isn't a group based MMO. Shoving mechanics that would force it into being one is the number one way to alienate a large number of people. I am not sure if you noticed, but there is a crapload of people (including Blizzard fans), who absolutely despise World of Warcraft and the MMORPG genre in general.

Although, I was hoping for D3 to be a MMO that is basicly a replica of WoW, but with Diablo lore, environment, and characters.

There is a very large number of people who want Diablo 3 to be Diablo 3, not a WoW-clone. You have WoW, you have the next-gen MMORPG that Blizzard is developing as their third project. Let us have the game we have been waiting for 7 years. Action RPG genre has been plagued by failed experiments such as Hellgate London and hordes of unimaginative Diablo clones. There have been very few games in this genre worth playing, and most of those had almost non-existent on-line play.

[5zigen]

I hope to see a WoW type aggro mechanic implemented into Diablo 3. I hated fighting one of the Prime Evils as a sorc or something and just by getting close you get attacked. They should take in the distance as a dynamic of the aggro but also have damage and aggro attacks. Make the barbarian a tank, the paladin a type of healer, and and the rest damage classes.

They say they want to make the game more cooperative and lets be honest, in Diablo 2 you prayed or played a zon or sorc for fast clearing. A barb's WW can only go so far and hit so many. Give him a more important role.

I hate to say it and I'll admit. I played WoW for a good 4 years. Very strong. I was a hardcore end game raider, but I finally got away, and for good. But I would love to see this game steer a lot in that direction. There's nothing wrong with it. WoW is a groundbreaking revolutionary game. If you deny that, you've never played it to the extent I have or you haven't played it at all. I hope they take all they can from WoW, but they can leave the Orcs.

Dear god. If this suggestion was implemented I would not buy D3.

However I give this a 0% chance of occouring as all the classes are dps classes, as it's been confirmed.

[Arkansaw]

WoW2: World of Diablo sounds like a better name :D

[andreasdr]

I want diablo3, not "WoW2: Realms of Diablo"The name "World of Warcraft 2: Realms of Diablo" doesn't seem right though :)
Let us have the game we have been waiting for 7 years. Action RPG genre has been plagued by failed experiments such as Hellgate London and hordes of unimaginative Diablo clones. There have been very few games in this genre worth playing, and most of those had almost non-existent on-line play.I agree, Diablo 3 obviously has potential to be the best action-rpg since Diablo 2, and I believe Blizzard feels a huge sense of responsibility to create the best sequel to the phenomenal Diablo 2 as they can. I think Blizzard takes pride in the quality of their games and the diversity of their different game series. They have, bay far, enough integrity to avoid the temptation of making another MMORPG cash-cow out of the Diablo universe.

[RyTEK]

Why has this turned into another Warcraft v. Diablo rant? Suggesting a game mechanic that could be shared in each game should not necessitate mindless garbage such as "I hate game X and will not play game Y if it shares anything at all with game X".

Since all classes are DPS in Diablo, you can't have aggro calculated in a WoW fashion (i.e. much more aggro for the Barbarian over the Witch Doctor). What I did notice in the gameplay video posted on the official D3 site - the part with the big boss fight at the end is that the Barbarian was chased around slightly more often than the Witch Doctor. This tells me that an aggro system is already in place, and will probably be balanced now and in upcoming patches.

The Witch Doctor's minions were also targeted as threats over the WD himself *most* of the time.

[ThulRasha]

I hate to say it and I'll admit. I played WoW for a good 4 years. Very strong. I was a hardcore end game raider, but I finally got away, and for good. But I would love to see this game steer a lot in that direction. There's nothing wrong with it. WoW is a groundbreaking revolutionary game. If you deny that, you've never played it to the extent I have or you haven't played it at all. I hope they take all they can from WoW, but they can leave the Orcs.

WoW groundbreaking revolutionary?
You obviously only played WoW and have never even heard of the older mmorpgs wich WoW borrowed from and put together in a very nice way.
There is nothing wrong with that, WoW turned out to be very sucessful. But groundbreaking and revolutionary it was not.

That said, I hope they do not steer D3 into the direction of WoW. Why not? Because I already have WoW. If D3 turns out to be the same, then I will simply stick to WoW for a while longer.

[Funkopotamus]

I was kind of hoping the game would be too fast for such an implementation.

[Sein Schatten]

I was kind of hoping the game would be too fast for such an implementation.

With summons, you need some aggro mechanic. Summons are not only damage tools but also meatshields and they should have a higher threat then the summoner. Same for Mercs.
Of course, D3 don't need the stuff like in MMORPGs with TPS skills and taunts and whatever. That is overkill.

[Funkopotamus]

Thanks for the tidbit?

[Lyrs]

Aggro: Just another form of AI

You guys need to let your WoW hate cool down. It makes sense for the monsters to switch targets to the player that draws its attention, especially those ones that are doing the most dmg to them. It's incredibly stupid for monsters to just hit whatever is closest.

Aggro or threat handling is something that needs implementation if you're going to have monsters that can adjust strategies, flank, and keep the players on their toes. Also, this game is going to be mostly coop and as such it's going to be to the benefit of the game and the players to THINK about how they should approach a certain situation.

Sanctuary is a dangerous place and with the events of D2:LoD, I would that it gets even more dangerous. The addition of BETTER AI in D3 would definitely go a long ways towards making D3 a better game. So again, don't let your WoW hate clutter the fact that games should improve their AI.

[Sein Schatten]

Thanks for the tidbit?

No problem. Glad I could help. :thumbup:

@Lyrs: True, as long as you are not forced to "have a tank" and other stuff. Better AI is always nice. :)

[konfeta]

There is vast a difference between improving AI and having it clearly built around having "tank chars", "healings chars", and "dps chars".

Naturally some form of aggro has to be there - pets, mercs, whatever. But not in WoW form where you have a third of a class designed around holding it.

[Funkopotamus]

It makes sense for the monsters to switch targets to the player that draws its attention, especially those ones that are doing the most dmg to them.
I'm half sure they do that now. But it could be my imagination highlighting the "Why me?" moments.

[nicro tower]

I'm half sure they do that now. But it could be my imagination highlighting the "Why me?" moments.

Agree... Baal seems to love hating on my sorc.

[Phranx]

I really want to contribute something to this thread but I'm not sure how to go about it while getting my message across clearly, here goes:

I am sure there is and will be some sort of "Agro mechanic" in place (I think I would feel more confortable calling it Monster AI for this discussion).

Someone mentioned having a Barbarian stand there beside the monsters getting hit while a Wizard is free to fire on them safely from afar. I would call this "Bad Monster AI", having the same scenario but the Barbarian doing more damage than the Wizard would constitute "Good Monster AI". I am hoping the later is the way that Diablo 3 will work.

It would be nice to be able to save a friend from certain death by having them stop attacking and you try to pick the enemies up. I would also like to have the option to try character builds with friends where someone can try having a class with high resistances and vitality gear trying to hold the attention of many enemies while his friends can pick off monsters safely.

The one thing that will absolutely make me NOT want to play Diablo 3 is if they design some classes to be tanks and healers. I don't want to have to tell a friend they cannot play Diablo with me tonight because they are a Wizard and we need a healer so we can do a Meph run.

[Rashiminos]

Eww... I certainly hope they do not under any circumstances add MMO-like aggro effects. Seriously why would a dozen carvers stand about doing nothing while you poind down them one at a time? Diablo is about fighting hordes of enemies at once, not static tank/dps/healing. There are plenty of those games already.. and in my personal opinion the combat in those games is way to linear and slow-paced.

I want diablo3, not "WoW2: Realms of Diablo"

Fun-fact: Fallen (and their kin) had a tendency to run away when a player killed a nearby monster.

Let us have the game we have been waiting for 7 years. Action RPG genre has been plagued by failed experiments such as Hellgate London and hordes of unimaginative Diablo clones.

You had that game, then you banished it away. (HGL) Diablo 3 isn't going to do much better for you.

In response to the OP: Why shouldn't monsters attack nearby characters?

[Rashiminos]

(double-postery)

[Grug]

I don't understand the hate, Rashiminos.

And yeah, "All classes are DPS" says Jay Wilson.

[teh_Thrasher]

yup yup, not to worry all classes will be DPS classes.
and i would like to see some sort of AI for the monsters... focus fire... false retreat... target close to dead characters... circle groups/ cut off escape. stuff like that.

[Synchrotron]

I disagree with the idea of making tank/support/DPS classes on D3. All classes must be self-sufficient IMO.

I only agree that D3 needs a good aggro system, in RTS game for example, in most battles you always focus on the strongest unit of the enemy army. The same idea could be implemented in D3, bosses would focus on the player that dishes the most damage per second.

[Knight_Wolf]

Sigh, and the WoW hate ensues ... whatever ... while i don't share the OP's blind love to WoW i do understand his point .. his only problem is that he wants D3 Aggro to be exactly like WoW .. but that won't work cause all classed in D3 are DPS classes .. Diablo 3 does need an Aggro system but not one identical to WoW's ... instead of saying Aggro system what diablo needs IMO is better or special enemy AI, just like the Fallen did in D2 .. when they realized one of their mates was taken down they scatter around randomly in fear making it hard to target them ... there could be countless other similar implementations of advanced monster AI in D3 .. there has to be.


As for the Aggro system suitable to Diablo ... it first has to put in mind that all classes are DPS .. but also some are more melee based than others (i.e Barbarian) .. so how to do that without flagging every class with some Aggro value that monsters react too ... hmmmm ... how about making them differentiate between melee attacks and ranged attacks in general .. so if they get attacked by both they engage the enemy causing them melee damage first ... but if that enemy stops attacking for a certain period (i.e tries to run or something) and the monsters kept getting attacked by the ranged attacker they would ignore the melee enemy who is fleeing (even if closer to them) and chase after the ranged attacker who is damaging them ... or something like that (like some said .. monsters focus on the player causing the highest DPS) .. or somehow a complex mix of both ... i just want to feel like i'm fighting clever monsters not some dumbwits ... it makes defeating them even more fun (i recon the enemy behaviors in "Halo" were very remarkable .. the enemies were very aware of your presence and different actions and also aware of all their surroundings and team mates .. i'd like to see organized enemy AI like that in D3).


Other examples would be monsters who play dead, or flank the player when in groups, or even better .. ones who can use objects to hide behind and avoid ranged damage, or ones who create decoys, or hide underground, or target players with the lowest health, or monsters who can do team work (heal each other, cover other weaker monsters behind them or cast various buffs and spells to aid their mates in combat ..... of course each one of those behaviors will fit better with a certain monster type of class since of course some monsters are smarter than others or more cunning .... in the end all these different behaviors and AI patterns when mixed and matched with random monster appearances can create a very fun challenge for players that's way better than one hit kills.

So yes, D3 needs an advanced aggro and monster AI system, but not necessarily like the one in WoW .. so could we ease the WoW hate and talk about how they could make the AI better .. it's more productive indeed ^_^

[Grug]

Although I usually agree completely with your thoughts, Knight Wolf, I disagree here. While Diablo 3 is more tactical than D2, it is a different kind of tactics than Halo. Special AI is not needed for monsters to do what you described. Things like playing dead, burrowing underground, and supporting each other already happen through special abilities. Not AI. As for flanking and such, monsters already either Spawn in behind you, or will run up and try to circle around so as many can smash you as possible. They're soldiers, not marines. They use the best tactics for the kind of combat: Swarm Swarm Swarm. and we couldn't be happier smashing/burning/eating their faces.

[Knight_Wolf]

Although I usually agree completely with your thoughts, Knight Wolf, I disagree here. While Diablo 3 is more tactical than D2, it is a different kind of tactics than Halo. Special AI is not needed for monsters to do what you described. Things like playing dead, burrowing underground, and supporting each other already happen through special abilities. Not AI. As for flanking and such, monsters already either Spawn in behind you, or will run up and try to circle around so as many can smash you as possible. They're soldiers, not marines. They use the best tactics for the kind of combat: Swarm Swarm Swarm. and we couldn't be happier smashing/burning/eating their faces.

But all enemies swarming mindlessly gets boring after a while, i do understand that swarming is a major part of Diablo sense of danger but some monsters showing some smart or cunning AI behavior is going to make thing quite exciting.

Since we are fighting demons some of them surely need to be evil and cunning to some degree specially the high demons ... demons are not supposed to be stupid (unlike the undead who just swarm the player and attack mindlessly).

As for AI .. any monster behaviors is AI .. all monsters in D2 had some sort of it .. but most had dump simple AI .. so better AI will surely make the game harder and more fun .. a monster that can realize what kind of buff you have and cast its negative on you to cancel it will be pretty challenging to beat, a demon that can teleport around and revive his fallen minions while also healing the injured ones and removing any negative buffs you cast on them will be very hard to beat, another who can block you path with explosive demonic incarnations while attacking you with ranged attacks will be fun to beat .. and so on .. these varied and unusual challenges will make the game more appealing, fun and harder to beat.

[Bladewind]

There is no need for an aggro class. Just the guy who does the most damage gets to play tag with the boss. After all Diablo 3 is meant to be workable on SP and MP as well.

[Srikandi]

Unlike WoW, every class in D3... and ideally, more than one build per class... has to be able to solo to the end. Which means that skills and mechanics that are relevant only in group play have to be minimized or eliminated.

That's the objection for soloists. Worse, though, The Holy Trinity system really makes it HARDER to play as a group, not easier, since you can't start until you have your healer and your tank. It doesn't help if you spread it out by having a support tree in every class, since you still need the player with the right build and the right gear to support it.

And since those two roles are essentially both support roles, they are always in short supply. The special pressure on healers and tanks can make the game a misery for those classes. How many WoW guilds dissolved in bickering and acrimony because the tank that everybody depended on traded up, or because the healers were blamed for every wipe and left en masse? :)

The Diablo series is about having fun in a less structured way than in an MMO... where you can play alone or in an ad hoc group of any size or class composition. Let's keep it that way kthxbai :)

I'm all for fancy, and hopefully highly varied, enemy AI, though. Let this enemy focus on the strongest, and that one focus on the weakest, and another one go for the ranged player, while the fourth heads for the one in a skirt ;) Whatever -- different strats and different roles on a per-enemy basis. Mix it up so that everybody has to be flexible enough to do a little of everything.

[bonertron]

WoW is a groundbreaking revolutionary game. Oh yeah, it broke lots of ground. Soooo much.

I am a fan of WoW. And you'd be stupid to make fun of such. WoW is by far the most successful game ever created. Its gameplay, dynamics, and features are flawless. Ahhh, so that's why people get bored of it.

Oh and "Why we rejected wow in the first place"? I bet 80% of people on these forums plays WoW at one time or another and would not regret the time they played.

I'm not defending WoW in anyway, numbnut. I am stating the obvious. Who could ever come to the conclusion that you are defending WoW?

Again, your rebuttal is pointless. Just leave my thread.

LOL. You're ****ing awesome. Yes you are.

[Grug]

Necromancer is not in D3. Please don't resurrect old, horrible threads.

[Krugar]

Despite the occasional smartarse that is still trying to show their acne filled faces on this thread, I'm glad the thread got quickly on track and the initial poster opinions respected, even if not necessarily agreed upon. I'm also glad it was quickly pointed out that Aggro mechanics is in fact just a quick word for 'Monster AI'(*) and this doesn't translate only to target switching. :)

So, my opinion while we are at it...

I cannot really conceive a straightforward target switching mechanism for Diablo 2. This is in fact very hard to implement because it is easily circumvent by players on 2D plane. Let me explain...

Target switching is an excellent (and I really mean Excellent!) monster AI mechanism for games being played in 1 dimension where players are thought to be all in the same "room" and no one is further or closer to the monster (text-based games, for instance). Here it becomes a very strong strategic element for the inclusion of the notions of tanks, casters, supporters, etc. and for monsters to quickly change targets forcing players to react.

On a 2D plane as in games like WoW or Diablo, this is what I would call Unusable AI. Players can easily circumvent this mechanics by, for instance, having the current targeted player run around in circles, forcing the monster to concentrate on moving itself and allowing for all sort of side attacks from the other players. Fun at first, boring later.

Now this is not to mean a monster shouldn't change targets. But the AI behind this decision should be more concentrated, in my opinion, on factors as line-of-sight, distance, obstacles in between and danger to the monster. But not players roles. This may make monsters less effective in some situations, true. But there are many other things at play, like the monster ability to actually ending up killing a player and the monster own skills and power (a monster can temporarily stun a player, or trap it in a web, etc). On any case, there's also the single most important aspect to keep in mind concerning Diablo gameplay thus far; Combat is secondary. You can flame me now. But think a little before you do ;)

Meanwhile, Blizzard has announced combat in D3 will involve more strategic thinking. Personally, I could wage my mouse hand this means very little in fact. Just a few advances to how monsters behaved in D2, plus some new monster ability concepts absent from D2, like the forced tactical decisions the Shield Skeletons offer to players for instance.

The one thing I would like concerning the 'Aggro' monster concept, was for Act Bosses and SuperUniques type of monsters to be heavily scripted to react to certain player's skills and actions. I'd like to see an Act Boss defend itself, shield itself, raise minions to help itself, go for the kill if the player is weak and tries to run away, etc...

...

(*) it is in fact lost in translation. Aggro used to mean just those monsters that attacked on sight, pre-emptively, as soon as the player(s) made themselves visible. As opposed to non-Aggro monsters that, would only attack if attacked first or otherwise provoked. If indeed 'aggro' is gaining now another meaning, it is unfortunate. Another word being lost.

[teh_Thrasher]

yeah i think there should be some monsters that are smarter and use more tactics in combat. like they encircle the player character and just own his face. kinda like the death lords in a5. those things RAPED! specially unique ones X_X

but uh as for non aggro monsters... not really for diablo if u ask me those seem more mmo type monsters

monsters should go for weaker characters. like if they have almost killed a character they should try to finish that one off because they want blood...