View Full Version : Worse PvP system?
The health globes are actually, in my opinion, really cool. Playing the game and actually seeing what types of strategy they encourage, you can start to see what they add and how they make the combat more interesting.
I'll set the scene. You're a barbarian, you're in the wilderness and after fighting wave after wave of ghouls, skeletons, demons, what have you, you're low on health. You're out of potions, and after using a strategic leap out of the fray you turn around and seismic slam the skeletons charging you. Two of them drop health globes, but the globes dropped behind the skeletons that are still advancing. If they reach you, you're not going to survive. Are you able to leap safely to snag the globes before they can tear into you? Can you throw out another slam and try to remove the remaining enemies? How can you survive? You have a fraction of a second to decide.
The health globes help to create situations just like this, where you're not just sitting there spamming potions, you're using your abilities and strategy to stay alive. Possibly most importantly, you're encouraged to keep fighting, and not just run away.
With random spawns, random drops, and of course the randomness of combat, the health globes add to creating situations that are just more... interesting, and in my opinion, fun.
On the side of potions, they still exist, but they're likely to be on a cooldown of some type. They'll also likely restore health based on a percentage that's relative to your character. They may heal an instant amount, they may be the old over time type system. They're probably going to be filling an emergency-heal role more than anything though.
This is a post by Bashiok on Blizzard forums about health globes. From what he says it seems pots will be on cooldown. Now my question regards HC PvP. If you can't spam rejuvs anymore, how exactly will anyone PvP? Without rejuv spam it's mostly a throw of the dice who wins a duel, the one that makes first hit will probably always win.
Is this the great new PvP system that's supposed to fix everything the others on this forum are waiting for?
This is a post by Bashiok on Blizzard forums about health globes. From what he says it seems pots will be on cooldown. Now my question regards mostly HC PvP, but I guess it can apply on SC also. If you can't spam rejuvs anymore, how exactly will anyone PvP? Without rejuv spam it's mostly a throw of the dice who wins a duel, the one that makes first hit will probably always win.
Is this the great new PvP system that's supposed to fix everything the others on this forum are waiting for?
I don't play much in Hardcore, so I might have a different perspective, but rejuvs werent allowed in dueling...
So...according to you, who wins the PvP battle is whoever has more rejuvs? Whatever happened to skill and equipment?
I don't play much in Hardcore, so I might have a different perspective, but rejuvs werent allowed in dueling...
So...according to you, who wins the PvP battle is whoever has more rejuvs? Whatever happened to skill and equipment?
Clearly you haven't been playing HC. Only SC would have those crazy rules like no slow or no rej, in the real world there were no such rules. To make the other guy dead you used everything you had.
You probably didn't see people have that hammer with amp charges on swap either.
Clearly you haven't been playing HC. Only SC would have those crazy rules like no slow or no rej, in the real world there were no such rules. To make the other guy dead you used everything you had.
You probably didn't see people have that hammer with amp charges on swap either.
Ummm, did you not even read what I wrote...please re-read my first 13 words so you can see i prefaced it with exactly what you managed to conclude. Congrats on that achievement.
Ummm, did you not even read what I wrote...please re-read my first 13 words so you can see i prefaced it with exactly what you managed to conclude. Congrats on that achievement.
I did read your post, but you just used that to take a shot at me free of charge, as if those words protected you from replies. If you have no clue about HC dueling how can you assume you know anything about "skill or equipment"?
Besides I made this thread mostly for HC, the reason I said SC could be here also is because I forgot of all your silly no rej rule. What were the other rules? No slow and no poison right? I might be wrong on that one.
I did read your post, but you just used that to take a shot at me free of charge, as if those words protected you from replies. If you have no clue about HC dueling how can you assume you know anything about "skill or equipment"?
Besides I made this thread mostly for HC, the reason I said SC could be here also is because I forgot of all your silly no rej rule. What were the other rules? No slow and no poison right? I might be wrong on that one.
Ha, yeah I did take a shot at you, but what am I suppose to do when I write a 2 sentence answer, and you ignore 1 of those sentences and act like your "conclusions" invalidate my opinion.
Im sorry, because I didnt play hardcore, I didnt realize I didnt know anything about skills or equipment. Those clearly are not present in softcore. I'll leave this thread now.
Edit: Now that you do remember some of our crazy rules, maybe you should edit your original thread saying that SC opinions were wanted too.
HappyAssassin
09-07-2008, 01:44
There were a lot of different rules that people followed. No one every really agreed on them. If potions are on a cool down then yes, you won't be able to duel by spamming full juvs. In Diablo 2 HC Pkers are built with the biggest damage possible to overcome juv spam. You're just going to have to build your characters differently. There will still be glass cannons of course, but I expect that people will design some chars that sacrifice damage in order to tank a few hits. Remember, synergies might not be in the game, and giant 1-hit kill attacks might be very rare. Honestly, SC pkers have been dueling without health pots for years, HC will just have to get used to a new system. You might even like it.
You're right. I did edit it.
You're hilarious, I start a thread and you take what you think is a free shot at me and when I reply you get all emo. Please have something to add to the thread next time. Thanks.
There were a lot of different rules that people followed. No one every really agreed on them. If potions are on a cool down then yes, you won't be able to duel by spamming full juvs. In Diablo 2 HC Pkers are built with the biggest damage possible to overcome juv spam. You're just going to have to build your characters differently. There will still be glass cannons of course, but I expect that people will design some chars that sacrifice damage in order to tank a few hits. Remember, synergies might not be in the game, and giant 1-hit kill attacks might be very rare. Honestly, SC pkers have been dueling without health pots for years, HC will just have to get used to a new system. You might even like it.
SC duelers also get their bodies back, I won't.
I fully expect some full vita duel strats to pop up, but if you take for example bvb all you need is a lucky WW zerk zerk, you might pop a rej after the first zerk but the second one will take your around 1/3rd life. Unless you have a high LL build you'll be pretty much dead on the next hit.
HappyAssassin
09-07-2008, 06:06
Yeah, duels will be short in HC provided the damage scale is the same. You never know, stats like leach, HP, AC and blocking might play a bigger role in PvP. Then again, given what blizzard has hinted about griefing, it's entirely possible that there will be no Hardcore PK in the first place, just voluntary softcore PvP.
Uncle_Mike
09-07-2008, 07:49
You're right. I did edit it.
You're hilarious, I start a thread and you take what you think is a free shot at me and when I reply you get all emo. Please have something to add to the thread next time. Thanks.
you on the other hand are far from hilarious.
3 day temp ban for flaming and personal attacks. It would also be nice if you read the forum rules by the time you come back. As usual, if you decide to create another account during the 3 day ban period you will be banned permanently.
I'm interested to see what kind of system will evolve for HC duelling. If pots are indeed on a timed basis, we might see a differentiation in combat tactics. Depends on the HP/damage ratios of course, but HC duelling might well be messier than it is, or be more focussed on defense and less on damage dealing. After all, if you deal enough damage to merely injure the opponent whilst he dishes out less, but more than what you can rejuv, he will win. Big bruisers with no capacity to take the punishment might evolve out. Then again, bigger bruisers who cause a LOT of damage might also be interesting. We'll just have to wait and see :)
Within DII it is essential to use the rejuvs at the right time in order to survive longer than your opponent. As for that difference between HC and SC... just imagine you have about ten times as many hitpoints as in SC (16 fulls, usually potted at about 1/4th depending on the damage done by the opponent, averages out at about 10 times as much hp). Oh, and you are dead permanently. ;)
@HappyAssassin
Lets hope we do get a HC PvP system. PK and PvP are not the same, after all (and lets NOT open up that can of worms again ;) ) Duelling is a lot of fun. Armed to the teeth, with some insane build, plenty of amusement.
Skilgannon
09-07-2008, 11:01
I've only ever PvM'd in HC, so this "spam rejuvs" comes as a suprise to me. I always thought using potions in a duel is lame. I mean sure, if someones trying PK you then spam away, but if youre challenging someone, or being challenged and you accept, youre basically saying "yer, i can whoop your ***", not "yer, i have more rejuvs than you"
I used to PvP alot in SC, and it irked me with the so called bad manners rules. eg. no poison, no slow, no knockback, no absorb etc. Rules i hasten to add, which no doubt would have been decided on by someone who thought they were invincible, who then lost an ear to a poison/slow/knockback/lightning bowa :p
The potion "rules" in softcore, as far as i'm aware, say that mana pots are ok, but no healing or rejuvs. This i cant comprehend. Surely thats like saying, an assa cant use Claw Block skill, but everyone can use a shield. But then theres alot of things in PvP now that i dont comprehend. I mean, whats so fun about spamming tele/blessed hammer trying to catch someone else spamming tele?
To me, PvP has always been about who's char was built better, and what items you chose to use. no pots, and no town running/save & exit when you know youre beat. Basically a test of your skills. Not a test of how many rejuvs youre carrying. (16 in a belt, 40 in an invent. Damn but that would be boring!)
Anyway, i digress. . .
I like the idea of PKing (legit of course) in HC, but the current "exit when critical" mentality makes it seem a fruitless activity. If there was a way of ensuring you cant tp or save and exit, or at least there was a substantial delay (so people who dont want to duel dont have to) i'd love it. You could actually hunt people properly. There would be a point in the duel where your opponent would know that they cant win, or in turn, YOU realise you cant win. No save & exit to help you, youre doomed! Do you fight on? or try to run? Ah but i'd like that :p
Well, the same goes for HC duelling. As I said, essentially you duel with more HP', so the effects of better gear and /or skilling are more pronounced, but you also must learn to time juvies. Someone who carries an inventory full of juves is dead meat, by the way. Charms >>>> juvies. You must realize that whilst the penalty for death in SC in a duel is merely a few insults, in HC you loose your character. Therefore, everything goes, and everything is full rejuvs. But the HC vs SC duelling differences is another debate, and neither way is better or worse than the other.
Townrunning is frowned upon in HC. In all fairness though, if someone expends all his 16 juvs and then tries to make it to town alive if he still cannot win, I don't blame him. Save/exit is rude, but also not uncommon. If the difference is so large it is obvious who is going to win the fight and items are hard to come by, save& exit is not really bad either. Its bad form, yes, but one can hardly be blamed for saving life and limb, especially whe one is out of juves and obviously outmatched. Both townrunning and save/exit are signs of a defeat and are clearly recognized in HC duelling as such. I prefer to fight to the death though, as that's the way I like it. There is no honor in running away , I'd rather fight untill the ear drops.
It gets ridiculous when you fight chickenhackers who have their hack set at 50% health. Once they drop beow 50% they automaticall S&E, and then re-enter, insult you, heal up, and try again. Those people are just.. impossible. No fun.
mince pies
17-07-2008, 04:30
I think that potions should be removed completely from SC and should be scarce in HC for obvious reasons. I also believe that someone shouldn't be able to hostile you unless both players are in the respective acts' towns. So, for example, if you were doing a Baal run and a high level PKer joined a game, they wouldn't be able to hostile you unless you were in town too.
the one that makes first hit will probably always win.
That will not be the case in Diablo3 because they will normalize dmg/hp. I think pvp for Diablo3 is very promising, in the beginning I doubted it because I thought it will be the same as in D2 which would suck definitely.
I mean in D2 even the rejuvs can't help you, it's way too unbalanced. With necro and assassin you can't do sh*t in pvp. While stupid pala can rape all classes.
Yeah I know you can fool pala with necro if the pala is noob, but in good pvp duel you can't do sh*t against him.
Knight_Wolf
03-02-2009, 17:18
No, cool down on potions will open more options to skill usage and actual tactics, you don't have to stand like an idiot infront of your enemy bashing the attack button and waiting for the potion cool down to spam more potions .. that's just stupid.
Move .. dodge ... whatever ... there will be many escape skills in D3 .. use the time to dodge your enemies attacks and use few ranged skills ( which all classes seem to have ) before engagning in close combat again or using potions ( after the cool down is over ).
To cut it short ... i'm glad .. very glad they did put a cool down on potions ... now PvP in both SC and HC will really be a match of true wits and skills .. not some cheap potion or rejuv spam match.
Kiroptus
03-02-2009, 18:05
With only consensual pvp being in the game (PK is dead) I doubt that you will be able to actually kill someone's character, it will probably be like WOW where you can take down someone's hp to 1 when you win the battle, otherwise noone will want to PVP at all in HC and playing HC will be like playing the game without the PVP options because noone will risk their characters for a stupid duel.
I really doubt that there is a chance to kill someone's character, it made sense for PKing but not in consensual pvp.
Knight_Wolf
03-02-2009, 19:04
With only consensual pvp being in the game (PK is dead) I doubt that you will be able to actually kill someone's character, it will probably be like WOW where you can take down someone's hp to 1 when you win the battle, otherwise noone will want to PVP at all in HC and playing HC will be like playing the game without the PVP options because noone will risk their characters for a stupid duel.
I really doubt that there is a chance to kill someone's character, it made sense for PKing but not in consensual pvp.
Hmmm ... good point ... but there are ways to make people fight consensual duels even in HC, how about giving them an incentive. :yes:
Like something more valuable than "ears", maybe a chance for the victor to pick up one item from the items the defeated is wearing ... sounds like a good motive to fight duels even in HC.
AkumaSlayer
04-02-2009, 19:18
In hc the defeated will be deceased, so you may as well get to collect all their gear.
Maybe there could be trade option for non hc players where each player could decide upon a suitable item as a reward. I guess it could work like a regular trade except after the trade is made you don't get the item until after you kill the opponent.
Kiroptus
04-02-2009, 22:12
You guys are on high if you think anyone will risk their character's life in a duel for an item. Even if its super uber mega item, people wont bother the risk of 50% chance of losing their character in a HC duel, it wont happen no matter how many incentives are thrown to make people do it.
Maybe there could be trade option for non hc players where each player could decide upon a suitable item as a reward. I guess it could work like a regular trade except after the trade is made you don't get the item until after you kill the opponent.
This is insane, no one will care for a sadistic trader that wants the possibility of taking your character's life for a item, I would simply look somewhere else where I would certainly find someone that wants to trade an item for an item and not an item for all the hours I spent on my character.
AkumaSlayer
05-02-2009, 01:44
Hey man, I said non hardcore players for that part, where dying is almost meaningless.
Knight_Wolf
05-02-2009, 01:48
You guys are on high if you think anyone will risk their character's life in a duel for an item. Even if its super uber mega item, people wont bother the risk of 50% chance of losing their character in a HC duel, it wont happen no matter how many incentives are thrown to make people do it.
With this logic we might as well ditch the whole HC concept, people don't play HC to keep their characters safe and away from danger ... they play it to feel the thrill of dying at any moment, a duel to the death in HC will be the epitome of that ... so aside from the thrill and the fact you survived the duel you get all the items the defeated person had ( since his character is deceased anyway ) .. that's a very worth trophy. :yes:
And of course cowards can chicken at the last second and press ESC if they wish. :whistling:
This is insane, no one will care for a sadistic trader that wants the possibility of taking your character's life for a item, I would simply look somewhere else where I would certainly find someone that wants to trade an item for an item and not an item for all the hours I spent on my character.
Sorry ... but you got it all wrong, there is no sadistic trader here, duels between nobles over items or trophies are actually very common in history and lore.
Choosing two preset items as trophies before the duel starts is quite a good idea ( player one chooses 1 item to get from player 2 if he defeats him .. and 2 does the same by choosing an item from player 1 items which he gets if he defeats him ) ..... makes duel even more thrilling .. even if it is not in HC.
Kiroptus
05-02-2009, 02:38
Once again, the "duel until death!" really sounds very beautiful, poetic and manly but no, it wont happen. People who play HC are very familiar with cowardly tatics like save and quiting when in danger or spoting a room filled with black souls and a conviction boss. Or when a PK just declared hostility. Playing as a summon/CE necro, etc...
Lets start saying the truth here: To get to high level HC you must play safe and cowardly. Or do you believe that the 99 top HC are all alpha males who took every hostility like a man and never exited the game when in danger or when death was eminent? Do you think that noone who just goes down the stairs to the Throne of Destruction isnt with their thumb already in the "Esc" key to prepare for an emergency quit if the entrance is filled with dools and souls right away? (happens a lot) Do you believe people just stand there and face all the instant danger?
HC players arent THAT hardcore. I doubt anyone here would risk a high level character in a stupid duel regardless of the reward and specially if the reward can be found by other means (and even if it wasnt, no one would still risk their characters).
HC is about playing safe and coward as the point of HC is to STAY alive by every means possible. Those of you saying that HC players would all agree to duel to death in the blink of an eye are really very naive when it goes exactly against the point of hardcore, which is, again, to stay alive. Dont take the "hardcore" word so literally, the HC mode in D2 is simple a "survival mode" where one has to survive and not be ultra L33T Hardcore and mean. Hardcore mode is about being coward and proceed with caution, intelligence and being prepared for every situation that can lie ahead.
Anyone here who is saying that they would engage a duel with someone until one of the characters are dead are just lying in 99,9% of the cases and in other 0,1% are the crazy ones who would actually do it.
AkumaSlayer
05-02-2009, 05:23
People like taking risks, I would do it with a lower level hc character (like lvl 40 or less) if I was friends with the opponent. If I die, then on the brightside at least in was in a duel instead of getting killed by a pack of oblivion knights or something. There's also the chance that I might win and get some awesome items.
I'm willing to bet that there will be loads of people who put in the hundreds of hours specifically to go into the arena to duel. Actually, I think it's kinda similar to people who race their cars for pink slips.
teh_Thrasher
05-02-2009, 07:19
everything said sounded really lame until the HC death loot was brought up.
that should always be the way its done... u die. the winner gets ur gear as reward. def incentive. (not in d2 though where dueling is teh worst ever, "oh hey i just teleported with my paladin and my magic hammer that somehow gets a bonus from this aura whereas any other magic dmg spell doesnt get a boost just did 15k dmg to you. oh gg")
and if they put in the cant exit while in combat (which is a really good idea) u shouldnt have a problem with chicken hackers... just runners. which u can counter with more speed or slow downs. or ranged attacks.
Hey think please before you post.
Nobody knows if the game mechanics will be similar, DIII won't be just DII with better graphics and PvP probably won't be the first guy who gets to score a hit who wins.
We don't even know if there will be hardcore.
Hardcore PvP (as in dueling) never made sense.
Knight_Wolf
06-02-2009, 03:13
We don't even know if there will be hardcore.
They said in one of the interview that there is no reason to remove it .. meaning there will be an HC mode .. we just don't know the details.
Hardcore PvP (as in dueling) never made sense.
It could make a lot of sense if the winner gets all the items the loser had + his gold and maybe even some experience .... winner gets all .. loser bites the dust.
People play HC for the THRILL .. what's more thrilling than that.
If I had the choice, I'd make Hardcore give extra XP/items. The faster progress means each character is less involved. I always saw Hardcore as an arcade mode, where you try and go as far as possible without dying.
Kiroptus
06-02-2009, 06:43
People play HC for the THRILL .. what's more thrilling than that.
Yeah the THRILL in which the ultimate thrill is to survive and not having a 50% chance to die.
Hardcore should be renamed "Survival Mode" as it makes much more sense.
AkumaSlayer
06-02-2009, 10:06
What you're saying is just how you feel. There are other players who will enjoy dueling in hardcore.
Knight_Wolf
06-02-2009, 13:31
If I had the choice, I'd make Hardcore give extra XP/items. The faster progress means each character is less involved. I always saw Hardcore as an arcade mode, where you try and go as far as possible without dying.
Exactly ... i think that the faster progress and arcade feeling could be emphasized by making players gain more XP in HC than normal and even +more XP through duels .. so loss of an HC character is not as severe as it was in D2.
Yeah the THRILL in which the ultimate thrill is to survive and not having a 50% chance to die.
Hardcore should be renamed "Survival Mode" as it makes much more sense.
Surviving cowardly is not thrilling ... what's thrilling for many people is knowing that there is 50% chance you will die ( or even more ) then averting death and coming out victorious with loads of spoils and XP ... that's what a THRILL is .. ALL or NOTHING.
And we aren't suggesting to change HC just because it is called HC ... many people want HC to be different from normal play and also not a copy of D2 HC which has been played to death (pun ... lols :crazyeyes:).
Heh. Nice.
If HardCore was more of an arcade mode, where you play fast and don't get attached to the character and are encouraged to take risks, then it increases the bragging rights by a lot.
Knight_Wolf
16-02-2009, 15:51
We could have something like in some fighting or VS games, like a typical old "Hardcore" mode, and another variation called "Hardcore EX".
In "Hardcore EX" the gameplay pacing is quite faster and monsters are slightly harder than normal but players gain a lot more EXP per kill and winners in PVP duels get all the loot, gold and some EXP from their defeated opponents (who of course won't have any use for it after losing their character) .... i'm pretty sure that "Hardcore EX" will be pretty popular in no time.
well...doesnt it destroy the whole concept of "hardcore" if it would be just hyped instead of real hardcore like it is now?
anyway i never really saw the point of PvP in D2..way to fast and way to gear dependent...its not like in WoW were the actual fight will last more then 1 min everytime...in Diablo fight dont really last that long...yes there is some tactic to it...but still seriously hard to balance a game that as so many "POWER" spell
id rather have special pvp stuff like the Siege one i found really interesting...they could...i say could cause its not that awesome imo but do like Knight_Wolf said about Nox and just put pvp in but you have a premade char just for it to make it more fair for everyone...but i still think its alots of time wasted for a game that seriously doesnt do much PvP
personaly im a hardcore pvp fan...but i like game that work well in pvp and Diablo was never one of these
also not taking risk in pvp mean you have nothing to lose which never was really good..people that have nothing to lose in a game can do stupid irrational stuff and it doesnt really make the survival feeling that pvp should always have
like going to snipe the rival faction(horde or alliance depending on who you are playing) on WoW near their main town make you not wanting to die :P and actually get a few good kill that are worthy of bragging about(same lvl and equal gear or better ;) lol)
This is a post by Bashiok on Blizzard forums about health globes. From what he says it seems pots will be on cooldown. Now my question regards HC PvP. If you can't spam rejuvs anymore, how exactly will anyone PvP? Without rejuv spam it's mostly a throw of the dice who wins a duel, the one that makes first hit will probably always win.
Is this the great new PvP system that's supposed to fix everything the others on this forum are waiting for?
We know nothing of the pvp system, the combat or even all of the classes and skill sets and you are complaining about balance? That is flat out ignorant.
They didnt just patch D2 and take out all of the potions, its a whole, entire, new game.
jimmy stew
14-04-2009, 15:56
before anyone reads il be honest and say i didnt read every post >< lol so apologies if this is wasting time.
I think being able to create a game purely for the purposes of pvp with slightly altered rules of play would be a good idea. for example: the use of potions instantly. (although i never dueled like this in d2)
having a safe zone where u spawn in game (like a town) and then perhaps a single room for dueling contest. A "contest room" if u like. ofc it would need to be fairly large if the pvp is anything like d2, but that not a big deal just make it big !
What about practise games ??? i mean for HC how will u know if u char is any good without abit of practise ??? perhaps a toggle on//off death mode for HC pvp games ??
just ideas to mix things up abit. im sure the people who want death or glory will still find each other and join games of their liking.
Also i think perhaps like in d2 where u can put lvl limits on games there should be a pvp toggle on//off ability on games to prevent pkers ruining the play for others. because in my opionion the hardcore community abit shoddy in d2 due to the lack of trust issue. its only when i joined a HC group its started picking up for me.
jim
The AssAssassin
20-07-2009, 00:06
Exactly ... i think that the faster progress and arcade feeling could be emphasized by making players gain more XP in HC than normal and even +more XP through duels .. so loss of an HC character is not as severe as it was in D2.
Surviving cowardly is not thrilling ... what's thrilling for many people is knowing that there is 50% chance you will die ( or even more ) then averting death and coming out victorious with loads of spoils and XP ... that's what a THRILL is .. ALL or NOTHING.
And we aren't suggesting to change HC just because it is called HC ... many people want HC to be different from normal play and also not a copy of D2 HC which has been played to death (pun ... lols :crazyeyes:).
:thumbup:This reminds me of the Diablo clone Beyond Divinity on its hardest setting (forget what the term was). You got double monsters, so you got twice the X.P., got the chance at some better loot because your stats perked up quickly, and got a chance (1/3 IIRC) for an extra skill point when leveling up: but only on the hardest setting.
It wasn't "no resurrection", but it was easy to die. Especially early on. This has possibilities for D3. I remember drooling after the Book of Skill, and Tyrael's reward. Wouldn't it be nice if every 3 or 4 levels *BING* FREEBIE! (But only on the {renamed} hardcore.) That'd make living on the edge worth it alone.
After all, so many have ripped off so much of Blizzard's designs isn't a little turnabout fairplay?
Without rejuv spam it's mostly a throw of the dice who wins a duel.
This statement legitimately offended me....
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