Single play versus group play

[Torvaldr]

I have been a Diablo player all through Diablo I and II with the expansions and have enjoyed myself thoroughly. But I have always been a single player. I do not like group play, nor having parts of a game set up specifically to not only encourage group play, but to nearly make it mandatory. A lot of the posts by the head of the new design team emphasize group play and party play to the extent that it looks like they are all but ignoring the single player side of things.

One of the old issues I had in Diablo II was set items. If playing in single player mode, you essentially NEVER had an opportunity to get a complete set. It seemed the only possible way to get a complete set of anything was to go on line and trade for it. Otherwise if you ever did manage to get a full set it was after you were high enough level and had better items than the set could ever compete with. In all the years I have played I never once got a complete set of anything. But gee I sure found the same item of a set over and over and over. Even when I already had that item!

It also seemed like certain character types had a much more difficult time taking out the Prime Evils, like they were never meant to operate alone, but only in a group. On their own they can handle most of the rest of the game, but when it came time to take on Duriel, Diablo, Mephisto, and Baal it was all they could do to win without being killed several dozen times.

One other issue I had was the way you could always find tons of class specific items for any class but your own. Recently I have been playing an amazon and now at 33rd level I have only found a total of 9 amazon items, compared to 23 paladin items, 21 barbarian items, 16 sorceress items, 19 druid items, 21 necromancer items, and 16 assassin items. I find this same issue all the time no mater what character I play. You will find tons of class specific items for any class but your own. And in a lot of cases you can BUY class specific items for some classes. Paladins can buy scepters and crowns, sorceress' can buy staffs and circlets, necromancers can buy wands. Yes Amazons can buy javelins, spears, and bows. But those are not class specific with Amazon bonuses and skills built in.

So as much fun as Diablo II is there are serious imbalance issues. I have been trying to be hopefull about Diablo III but reading some of the comments, I have started to have doubts as well. Heavy emphasis on group or party play, makes me think they are not giving single play mode enough consideration. It is hard to speculate on characters when they are keeping the other 3 under wraps. I agree there needs to be a high/holy warrior type. Not all of us warrior types are barbarians. There needs to be a mage/wizard class, not just the witch doctor. Again, not all of use are barbarians or tribal.

But whatever classes they settle on I really hope they pay attention to the single player option as much as they do the multi player. Otherwise I may end up feeling like I wasted my money in the purchase.

[TopHatCat64]

From the official D3 site on blizzard:

Will there be a single-player component in addition to multiplayer?

Yes. In addition to battling the hordes of the Burning Hells cooperatively with friends over Battle.net, players will be able to adventure through the world of Diablo III solo. More details on both the single-player and multiplayer experience will be revealed at a later date.

So they at least acknowledged there will be a singleplayer mode.

Also I'm not sure if you still currently play but check out the Single Player forum. ATMA is a muling application that all of us use that solves that "amazon items found by a barb" problem.

[pantherus]

One of the old issues I had in Diablo II was set items. If playing in single player mode, you essentially NEVER had an opportunity to get a complete set. It seemed the only possible way to get a complete set of anything was to go on line and trade for it. Otherwise if you ever did manage to get a full set it was after you were high enough level and had better items than the set could ever compete with. In all the years I have played I never once got a complete set of anything. But gee I sure found the same item of a set over and over and over. Even when I already had that item!


With you there mate - I do not doubt I will be getting D3 when it comes out, bit I will be primarily playing single player as I simply do not have the time to properly place online.

I would love to have (as I have seem at times) special quests/subquests/etc where the prize is a WHOLE set. Naturally it wouldn't be an uber-powered one, but getting a full item set as a reward would be fantastic. Imagine in D2 meeting Iratha and getting the full Iratha's Finery (a pretty darn decent set) as a reward? Awesome!

[BAMFSpecialOps]

To go along with the post above mine. What about if you are fighting through a forest when you find an NPC being held in an encampment, when you rescue said NPC they tell you they were going after X boss just as you are but they were too weak blah blah blah and they lost most of their gear trying to escape. Think about going on a side quest for a set(obviously leveled with the difficulty you are playing in) fighting through mini-bosses using those set pieces against you.

[Leugi]

BAMFSpecialOps idea is good actually, it would be like 'Hunting the Set' quests, so you could be some kind of set collector weee.

[Torvaldr]

I looked for this ATMA mulling program and am having no luck finding it. Could someone post a link to the thread?

[pantherus]

I looked for this ATMA mulling program and am having no luck finding it. Could someone post a link to the thread?

http://atma.diabloii.net/

[Torvaldr]

Thank you. I found the program and read the information. But it looks like all it is is an unlimited stash. I could not find anything in the description about changing the types of items that drop from kills. The issue is not getting class specific items for the class being played. How does this program fix that?

[5zigen]

It's an interesting dilemma you put forth about item rarity.

If you make thinigs like sets fully attainanble in a single or couple playthroughs, then you basically make it super common in an online environment.

I think blizzard has to consider if they want the game to be primarily meant for online play and to support an online trading / buying / selling economy, or if they want it to be more oriented to single player with online play as an afterthought.

Or I guess they could have separate drop tables for online and offline but I don't know if that would be desirable.

[Thyiad]

Thank you. I found the program and read the information. But it looks like all it is is an unlimited stash. I could not find anything in the description about changing the types of items that drop from kills. The issue is not getting class specific items for the class being played. How does this program fix that?

aTMA is a large stash.

There is no reason you can't get a grail - one of each item in SP. It just requires effort.

Drop editors are not acceptable.

[Gigashadow]

Single Player in DII was screwed up because they did not balance it AT ALL. They basically took all multiplayer mechanics, restricted online, and called it "Single Player". Diablo I did a much better job with this.

Single Player should have totally different balancing - higher drop rates for your class instead of lowest drop late for your class (good for trade, but can't trade in SP), there should be a shared stash because it's basically there in form of mules in DII, and less monsters with immunities because in online you can just make a party of all the different damages and kill everything. In Single Player, it's just you and your henchman.

[pantherus]

Agree with you there Giga

[Torvaldr]

Well I'm back after being banned. I totally misunderstood what someone had said about the Atma program and while trying to get clarification I asked about drop mods not realizing that even asking about it is illegal. So I am sorry that I broke the rules and will try not to do so again. Just as an aside though, all anyone ever had to do was remind me it was against the rules and I would have apologized and not done it anymore.

Back on topic though, the whole point of this post was pretty much what Giga just said. The drop program was designed for group play. Not single play. In fact it really does seem as if the whole game was geared towards group and on line play. My post was a distant hope that someone from the D3 design team might see it and fully realize that single play is as important as group or on line play and needs to be just as balanced.

[Thyiad]

Back on topic though, the whole point of this post was pretty much what Giga just said. The drop program was designed for group play. Not single play. In fact it really does seem as if the whole game was geared towards group and on line play. My post was a distant hope that someone from the D3 design team might see it and fully realize that single play is as important as group or on line play and needs to be just as balanced.

Well no I disagree with part of what you said.

Yes, we all hope the D3 guys create a full game that is equivalent to the online experience. With all the items and experiences available in single player and over TCP/IP (LAN) play.

I don't agree that the drop mechanics are designed for groups. Please look at the SPF FAQ. There are grailers who collect one of each set/unique - something harder to do on bnet than in SP.

Look at the Tourney's. Single characters playing through the game in one pass (no MFing or re-running) in hardcore without any starting equipment and finishing the game.

It's about effort and skill and if you have it, SP is perfectly fine. If you want to just rip through everything then yes groups are easier. Drops mechanics aren't the issue.

And can I ask you to look at the difference between drop mod and drop mechanics. They are very different concepts.

[Sein Schatten]

I don't agree that the drop mechanics are designed for groups. Please look at the SPF FAQ. There are grailers who collect one of each set/unique - something harder to do on bnet than in SP.


But /players 8 and 8 grouped players are different drop percentages as I recently learned. This, I think, is a bit unfair. Especially with the stupid 1:1.000.000.000.000 chance of some drops. And, yes, basically, D2LOD is designed around the fact that you have thousands of players playing the game and trading the loot. Again, evidence is the stupud low drop chance of some stuff. You will never see some of the drops in SP.
tl:dr.: I disagree and say, drops for D2 are designed for MP.

[Torvaldr]

I do not know what a grailer is, but I have been playing now since the day D2 was released and I have yet to ever collect a complete set of any kind. Not even a 4 piece set. And just yesterday, I had found Cleglaws shield. 3 times. Once while I was carrying it. And once while I had it in my stash. Not so unique when you can find the same item 3 times in one game. How anyone is ever able to find a complete set without trading for it with others is beyond me. The only chance I can see it to use the Atma program and save all items I can. Eventually I will find a complete set of something.

But my 8 plus years of playing tell me the drop program was not designed to be balanced in SP mode. Maybe your experience is different. But that is how it works on my machine with all the patches and updates.

[Hrus]

Well as Thyiad said, it's about effort. A lot of people in SPF collected all the set items. Few collected all the unique items too. (Grailer is the player trying to collect the whole collection of set and unique items in the game - which we call a quest for the grail).

Sein Shatten - the difference between 8 partied and unpartied players is in fact very low (because no-drop reduction suffer by SEVERE dimnishing results), and if we are talking about set and unique items, it's completely irrelevant - act bosses can't drop more than six items (maxed at /players5 for Mephi,Diablo and Baal, maxed at /players7 for Andy and Dury), and random unique monsters allways drop 1 item, superuniques allways drop 2 items. Since regular monsters have really low probability of dropping the set/unique, even in areas - MF runs are most effective to do at /players1.

All in all with the Static maps, MFing is much EASIER at Single player (and with Atma - you can actually keep all the items you found and not bother about mule characters). EDIT - And how could I forget temp ban restrictions?

So I don't see these rants about SP drops rellevant at all.
(2 items left to get the grail for myself - only Tyraels Might and Torch of Iro -EDIT and this is completely self-found)

But my 8 plus years of playing tell me the drop program was not designed to be balanced in SP mode. Maybe your experience is different. But that is how it works on my machine with all the patches and updates
Strange, when I was in the MF tournament - when you had to create a new untwinked character and get as much set/uniques possible in one month - I collected almost all normal set items (besides Cow and few TC3 items)
It's about knowledge and effort I guess.

EDIT: Links you might find interesting:
SPF Grail tables (http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=337205)
SPF Elite Runners (http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=444098)

[Torvaldr]

I don't think the discussion is irrelevant. It is perspective and design. If I wanted to become a grailer and just keep playing until I find a complete set of something, then the goal is no longer to complete the game, it is to complete the set. And by the time I collect all 4 pieces of the berzerker set, I will be 100th level or higher, and having the set is the accomplishment. Not wearing it or using it. Because by the time I collected it all I am so powerful and have artifacts much more powerful than anything the set can give me what is the point? For me, I want to be able to find a complete set at a level of the character when wearing the set is useful. Not just to prove I got it all. The closest I ever got was 3 pieces of a 4 piece set, and they sat in my stash because wearing them was pointless. All the items I had were better than the set by that time. So for me, if after playing for 8 plus years I have never once in normal game play been able to collect a complete set, before completing the game, that, to me, is poor design, or a design with a purpose to force people on line to trade or play. And I do not play on line. Ever.

[Torvaldr]

I do not understand your comment though about knowledge and effort. Set items drop randomly as far as I know. There is no way to AIM for a set item. If I do this, and I kill this, while I and wearing this, and doing this. I will get a set item. I have played an entire game through without EVER seeing a set item.

[Hrus]

I am sorry, I might have sound little bit arrogant. I will explain little bit further.
Most of the people in SPF here use Atma - the tool enabling very easy muling and transfering items amount your characters and also providing an infinte stash. Then they just create a character specially designed for effective magic finding - basic example Blizzard sorceress - this build is the most effective Hell Mephisto and Pindleskin killer (and also can do the job in other interesting MF areas). Those are most popular targets to gain basic wealth in SP - Then they just run them several thousands time - voilla, a lot of set and unique items. The knowledge here lies in knowing how to equip and build your MF character to optimize the speed of the runs with MF to get the best reults.
I humbly suggest reading my MF guide (http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=412453) (though it's probable too deep into the game mechanics - but it's knowlege)
Then they equipped their other characters with these items and play just for fun...

But playing without Atma and without friends over tcp/ip it's kind of hard to transfer items from one character to another or complete the set, I get it...
(I only hope they will give us shared stash in D3 - both for BNet and SP, it's kind of standard these days, so I am optimistic)

Other people play only untwinked characters - but they have great knowledge of the game like - when to shop for useful items, what items to keep, what horadric recipes to use and when to use them to have a chance for good magic affixes, when to gamble and gamble what...
Guide to early single-pass MF. (http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=620901)

Aynways it's obvious that when you trade, you get your items faster then when you try to find them yourself. But trading is mostly fun (well supposed to be) and trading communities keep D2 alive... And trading can be done via TCP/IP too (in SP).


EDIT: don't think the discussion is irrelevant. It is perspective and design. If I wanted to become a grailer and just keep playing until I find a complete set of something, then the goal is no longer to complete the game, it is to complete the set
The original discussion is not irrelevant. I was just saying that getting items in SP is actually easier. If you more thought about "It's almost impossible to get the set completed until you are already 100 levels higher or completed the game already" - yeah it's true. But I would really hate to have increased drop rates when playing solo (number of drops will be higher anyways overall if I understand their intended drop mechanics well). Because you can play solo to have higher chance to get items, then trade them anyway. That would actually encourage solo plays and that really is not what most people including blizzard want...

[Sein Schatten]

Hrus:
The drop mechanism in D2 is balanced around MP. Why? If you play alone in your home and you have high drop chances, let's say by the time you are lvl 90 you have a formidable set of items, imagine what happens online with thousands of players. The MP market will be flooded with items. ;)

[Hrus]

Hrus:
The drop mechanism in D2 is balanced around MP. Why? If you play alone in your home and you have high drop chances, let's say by the time you are lvl 90 you have a formidable set of items, imagine what happens online with thousands of players. The MP market will be flooded with items. ;)
Your point is?
If I understand what you try to say... If someone plays solo and don't trade at all, it's not easy for him to get the good items compared to player who trade actively...

Well, imagine that the drops were balanced around solo player - well everyone would find good items soon. That would have impact on trading... trading market would be flooded with the good items, and trading alone would become less needed. Everyone will have the best gear available, get bored sooner, because there are no better items to get and stop play the game sooner.

I think the only way around it would be making a new gameplay mod - like hardcore - "STRICTLY SOLO". Character played in that mod could never play or trade with no other chars, but will get better drops. (The stash should be large though, because you wouldn't be able to mule items).


EDIT: Sein Schatten, I reread your post and realized you are saying the exact thing as me.... I don't understand why you directed that at me though, because I defend the "rare good drop" approach and I wouldn't like having better drops solo. The fact is that drops are the same in BNet and SP, but MFing in SP is much more easier - I am comfortable with it and like it as it is.

EDIT2: You can have a very large market pool of items even for SP players, just look at SP Trading Forum...

[Sein Schatten]

My point is: I agree with Gigashadow and disagree with Thyiad. SP (the drops) is not balanced around SP but around MP.

edit:
IMO, you cannot have a SP with dropchances for MP and MP with dropchances for SP. It won't work. In SP you will never, ever see some of the stuff that is cool and for your class whereas in MP you can hoard things and trade them.
I don't know what the solution is and if there is one. The easiest is 2 different mechanics but is that wise to differ SP and MP?

[Hrus]

I agree that the game is balanced for MP regarding drops.

I disagree with what Giga said though
Single Player in DII was screwed up because they did not balance it AT ALL. They basically took all multiplayer mechanics, restricted online, and called it "Single Player". Diablo I did a much better job with this.
-You can still trade even playing SP.
-MFing is actually much easier in SP.
-Muling is much easier in SP.

I don't feel like SP is screwed up. And as I explained, I like that good drops are that rare... Makes you feel really good when you finally find something good...

And as long as SP characters can play and trade with others, there is really no reason to have different drop rates for SP and BNet.

EDIT: I feel like we are getting to the same conclusion from the different sides ;)

[Torvaldr]

yup, you guys are basically saying about the same thing. My Dad and I used to argue like that. Yelling at each other at the top of our lungs until my Mom would come in and say. "You're both saying the same thing, now shut up!" :omg: Then we would look kinda sheepish and grumble about another great argument shot to hell. :whistling:

Hrus, now I do understand what you were saying. Yes, I could do like others. I guess you could say that I have been playing a non-hardcore, hardcore SP character. I do not and will never go on line to play or trade, and until recently had never heard of Atma. So playing just within the game it self on my home PC getting a complete set was nigh on impossible. But within the D2 Community with the availability of trading and such I do not see an easy answer on the drop issue. So I will be getting and using Atma at least. I do not know how many times I have found an artifact that is terrific for one class, while I am playing another. Just being able to stash it and then give it to the right class will be great. Eventually, I will get a complete set of set items too and finally get a chance to see how they work.

[pantherus]

The whole thing with ATMA is that it can act as a trading setup so that you can get your collated items together and share them around - for example, you've played right through and completed ACT V Hell and collected heaps of items, including some complete sets (Arctic Set for example). You later create a new Bowazon character (for example) and give her the Arctic Set straight off the bat, so that she has a much easier time in her early days due to the superior setup she was given straight away. During her travels later on she finds some other good, high-level items which would work well back to your original character - so you pass it back via ATMA.

You can still get all the sharing and "trading" going on in SP, you just do it all with yourself or with friends via LAN connection games. Naturally it will be slower-going than Multiplay based solely on proportion - but it's plenty for you own needs - considering that you can quite legitimately win the entire game using only gear you have found on your travels...

You don't necessarily have to collect complete sets in the one game - share it over 4 games and put it together for a deserving character.

[Fegon]

do aTMa work with the 1.12? anyone know?

[Hrus]

That's really offtopic, but it works. There really was no change in 1.12 from 1.11 (ok, no CD and Mac compatibility, but it doesn't involve items or character format) so why it shouldn't work? If you choose "create 1.11 stash" option, it will still work in 1.12.

[Fegon]

aTMa did work. It would be nice if you had something simular in D3, a large stash for item collection that wasnt character bound. It would be a nice touch for single player imo.

[Hrus]

Well, why not having it for BNet chars too. Muling is quite annoying. Something like Caravan Stash in TQ. Is something similar in WoW? If it is, I believe it will be implemented in D3 too. If they will decide to make it infinite space (or expandable by gold or whatever), I would be quite satisfied with that...

[Sein Schatten]

Is something similar in WoW?

You have one bank per character, one bank per guild and you have mailing. You can mail stuff from one character to another but none of that is bond to account.