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Dwovar
24-07-2008, 21:01
I've been plagued by confusion over the nature of the demons we fight in Diablo and Diablo II. The competing factors of the soulstone, worldstone, possession of critters, and nature of the hells has lead me to a conclusion. It's not actually a revolutionary idea, but within the world of Sanctuary it is.

Demons do not have bodies.

Or rather, demons are entirely spiritual manifestations (of chaos and evil and the darker aspects of the world). As a side note, this would mean the same thing for the angels, who are supposed to be composed of pure energy.

But how can this be, I asked myself, I've slaughtered gobs upon gobs of demons in both games. Lets poke through the beastiary of Demons.
Diablo I:
Fallen
Goatmen
Hidden
Overlord
Magma Demon
Lightning Demon
Gargoyle
Drake
Megademon
Witch


Diablo II:
Fallen (and their variations)
Corrupt Rogues (et al)
Goatmen
Tainted
Fetish's (also called dolls)
Blundergores
Council Member
Megademons (traditional Balrogs)
Regurgitator
Vile Mother (and her adorible children)
Some Baal Minions
Overseers
Imps
Succubi
Furies
Putrid Defilers
Minions of Destruction

Theres a general trend in an increasing "outlandishness" as they become stronger and stronger (up until the Bosses and Superuniques that are different altogether).

But if we look at the initial, weaker demons, they all resemble other, non-demon creatures. Diablo 1: The fallen look like children, the goatmen look like Khazra, the hidden, megademons, and witches look like twisted humans. Overlords are said to be captured angels, Drakes look like the D2 Snakemen, and the Gargoyles could easily be actual gargoyles. The Magma and Lightning demons could be humans that had taken on elemental aspects.

In short, all of the diablo 1 demons could have been other creatures, twisted by possession. Those stronger villains can twist more (like the lightning and magma demons).

Diablo 2: Many of the creatures are shared, so I won't cover them. The corrupted rogues are fairly obvious. The tainted look like bulls or apes. Councilors, fetishes, blundergores, overseers, imps, vile mothers, and mega-demons all resemble different types of people. Those baal minions that are demons could easily be possessed versions of the animal versions of said demons. Furies are more or less humans with wings (like megademons) and putrid defilers have the upper structure of humans, horribly warped and twisted with the gas-bag-*** they have on the other end. Regurgitators give me some problem, but they too could be twisted humans. The rest of the demons out there are the special Lords, or the Minions of destruction which I assume are powerful enough to reshape their hosts however they like.

So, thats my first point: All demons resemble twisted forms of non-demons. It's no deal braker, but does lend credence to my second point. (On the side note, and I don't point to this because few of the other creatures share this type of animation. The corrupted rogue's death animations show a fleeing spirit. Perhaps it was only in temporary possession of the rogues?)


Point Two: The prime evils can't simply manifest on Sanctuary. The angels decided to imprison them in stones, force them to possess the shards, instead of banishing them right back to hell (where their spirit forms would go when their mortal coils were destroyed).

Now, I asked myself again, why would Diablo choose a child instead of a great hero (since he actually had a choice in D1)? I believe he was in a hurry. He was trying to get his brothers free and needed to be quick. His soulstone was cast down in a meteor (I think) so whoever did the casting was probably on to him. So he lured lazarus to bring him a creature that wouldn't resist his advances (the way the Tal Rasha resisted).

If Diablo had a physical body, why does he always need to possess and warp someone? Why did all the prime evils, the strongest of the demons, need bodies to possess? If they must have bodies, wouldn't a weaker, lesser demon like mere fallen or goatmen need creatures to possess as well? This could be argued to be the work of the worldstone, not the natural nature of demons, but the worldstone is such a massive variable it's difficult to be sure. I'm going to proceed as if it weren't the 'only reason'. Which it may well be. Still, for arguements sake, when you destroyed Mephisto's soulstone in hell, he didn't pop up next to you, so something must have been keeping him at bay (a lack of willing humans inhabiting hell maybe?).

So, Point Two: Prime evils need bodies, why shouldn't all the others?


Point 3: Tyrael. Now, it's possible that he has an asthetic appreciation for the human form, enjoys their pretty armors, and is really just a ball of energetic joy inside a fullplate. I submit, however, that Tyrael's form is one neccesitated by his host. Yes, Tyrael is borrowing a body, warping it with the wing-tentacles the same way the prime evils morphed theirs (to a much less asthetic degree at that). Why would Tyrael do this? Well, first is the circular logic that I'm right and he has to. But that won't stand up to scrutiny so I posit a second reason.

There are a lot more effective shapes for fighting than the two armed biped approach. If Tyrael could shape himself a form out of thin air, it'd be a lot more effective if it were ten feet tall with four arms and that could spew lightning, cold, fire, and magic alternatley. Spikes would probably help too, lot of those.

But he still has those wings, I pondered, if he can possess a body and still make wings, why wouldn't he just make all those changes like the prime evils did? I think that it's his well documented appreciation for humans. His willingness to counter the will of the high heavens in humanity's favor. Tyrael has assumed control of a person by neccesity, they may even have volunteered. He made the wings by neccesity too, what good would a mere mortal be (well, I guess we've seen exactly what good a mere mortal would be, haven't we). I think though, that he appreciates and respects the person who he's possessed too much to turn them into some horrifying freak.

Point Three: Tyrael looks pretty human, but he wouldn't have to be if he didn't need to wear a body.


So, by simple addition. If point one, point two, and point three are true, then I submit point six (1+2+3) also be true.

Point Six: Angels and Demons don't have phsyical bodies.

Thirty-Thirty
25-07-2008, 14:55
In short, you're spot on that most of the monsters are corrupted beasties, rather than themselves demons. And it seems that the Prime Evils are just spirits, and were more powerful when embodied (possibly because the Worldstone weakened their spirits when in Sanctuary).

I'm not sure about claiming that all demons are spirits, though. I think the Prime Evils alone could twist the minds of a large number of beings, without any "possession" necessary. As for the angels, we just don't know enough about them from the games. The books probably flesh this out more, but I haven't read them. Someone like Tyrael might be a parallel to the Lesser Evils. Without soulstones, they were still embodied, so I presume Tyrael goes along the same lines.

But are there then angelic spirits to contrast the Prime Evils? Prime Goods? :| Hmmm...

redrach
26-07-2008, 23:12
From the Bestiary entry at The Arreat Summit for Frozen Horrors:
Not all of Baal’s minions need have form. Many of his demons are completely intangible on the mortal plane. However, this makes attacking helpless mortals impossible. The ice in the caves of Mt. Arreat is a limitless resource for these demons to take their form from.
The indicated text would imply that some of Baal's demon minions do have physical bodies. Its just that a lot of them don't.

As for Tyrael, I'd suspect that he really is nothing more than a set of possessed armor (Explains why his face is always hidden - there is no face!) As for why he'd choose that particular form - to blend in with the locals. I don't suppose a four-armed form would help in convincing humans that he's on their side.

ThulRasha
02-08-2008, 00:26
The goatmen are also explained. They were a tribe of humans once before they became the Khazra:
http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/world/bestiary/khazra.xml

Hikikomori
03-08-2008, 13:24
0. Demons and angels have a form but spirits in hell do not.
1. Diablo chose a child cuz he could not possess King Leoric. He could not be in his true form as his soulstone made him unable to do so.
2. Once their soulstones were destroyed, Diablo and Mephisto would go back to hell and regain their true forms.
3. They would probally walk up the hole from hell in the arreat summit and lead the demon army to destroy the sanctury.
4. An angel hooked up wif a demon to create the humans! A hybrid of both of them. Therefore, tyreal and the other angels look like humans, doh.
5. The fallen, council members and goatmen etc are not demons, they are corrupted humans. When mephisto was in his soulstone, he corrupted the council members of the zarakum and transformed them into the freaks u kill when u go for a council run.
6. As for the stuff in Act 4, the enemies are demons and spirits. Those same spirits would have the ability to possess ice to form frozen horrors, like redrach said.

Main point: It is not possible for a demon and an angel to hook up and give birth to human hybrids wif a BODY if angels and demons do not have bodies in the first place.

Grawner
03-08-2008, 17:25
0. 4. An angel hooked up wif a demon to create the humans! A hybrid of both of them. Therefore, tyreal and the other angels look like humans, doh.

well, dont you mean, that humans look like Tyrael and the other angels? not the other way around, as you wrote?
otherwise is doens't make sense..
and do you have the information from one of the book's, or? :)

Thirty-Thirty
03-08-2008, 19:56
The fact that humans are the progeny of an angelic father and demonic mother comes from one of the books, not sure which. My current knowledge is that the relevant angel was Inarius, and his partner was Lilith, daughter of Mephisto. Something in the relationship went awry (as is so often the case), so Lilith revealed Sanctuary to the Prime Evils.

Grawner
04-08-2008, 11:00
The fact that humans are the progeny of an angelic father and demonic mother comes from one of the books, not sure which. My current knowledge is that the relevant angel was Inarius, and his partner was Lilith, daughter of Mephisto. Something in the relationship went awry (as is so often the case), so Lilith revealed Sanctuary to the Prime Evils.

yeah, i read what you wrote about Lillith and Inarius on Wiki, i think :)

Sinistril
04-08-2008, 11:52
I don't think he took the child's body because he wanted to be quick I'm sure he could have waited many many years as he had been biding his time in the dungeons below Tristram for a long time. Anyways the reason he took the child's body is explained, its because he was too weak to take the King's. He used the child's while he regained his strength and set himself deep within hell corrupting the monestary above him so that a stronger person body would come. All the while being corrupted as he fought his way through hell, weakened by diablo's minions and quests/mindgames. Ofc even after the warrior went through all that he wasn't weak enough for diablo to posses right away it took a while but you get the point.

As for needing bodies I thought that was a given? But did the originally have bodies? I believe they must and maybe diablo 3 will reveal the WHOLE story on this

Grawner
04-08-2008, 13:47
I don't think he took the child's body because he wanted to be quick I'm sure he could have waited many many years as he had been biding his time in the dungeons below Tristram for a long time. Anyways the reason he took the child's body is explained, its because he was too weak to take the King's. He used the child's while he regained his strength and set himself deep within hell corrupting the monestary above him so that a stronger person body would come. All the while being corrupted as he fought his way through hell, weakened by diablo's minions and quests/mindgames. Ofc even after the warrior went through all that he wasn't weak enough for diablo to posses right away it took a while but you get the point.

As for needing bodies I thought that was a given? But did the originally have bodies? I believe they must and maybe diablo 3 will reveal the WHOLE story on this

what are you saying? was that an answer to a post, or?
i don't really get the point of your post? :scratchchin: (could just be me, being dumb? :crazyeyes:)