Skills in D3

[Niniux]

I know in the video it showed information about a Rank and a Level of skills but I don't really know how that will play in Diablo 3. I do however know one thing that Diablo 3 could use in terms of skill.

I really think that skills should scale in power based on your level. So that if you put points into (using D2 skills as an example) say, Firebolt, you don't have to worry about it being a tier 1 skill and therefore being useless end game. Synergies were kind of a bandaid to this problem and an interesting one. I don't think they should get rid of synergies in D3, but make them less overpowering. Make it so skills are still useful without their synergies but that synergies add some flavour to their skills.

If the skills do scale with your level, it will allow them to have more flexibility when creating skills rather than just creating similar but more powerful versions of the same skills. I like the idea of having a skill that is useful not only at the start of the game, but also end game, so you have a gaggle of skill use options rather than just spamming a couple skills endgame.

[visom]

Skills tied with level wouldn't be a bad idea, however it would defeat the purpose of having a level 1 skill and a level 30 skill, seeing as how both would be equal based on character level.
Unless I got something wrong then correct me.

btw, whats synergy?

[factotum]

btw, whats synergy?

Didn't you ever play D2 1.10 or later? They added a feature whereby the points you had in a low level skill like Firebolt would increase the power of higher level skills like Fireball, Meteor and Hydra.

[5zigen]

Skills tied with level wouldn't be a bad idea, however it would defeat the purpose of having a level 1 skill and a level 30 skill, seeing as how both would be equal based on character level.
Unless I got something wrong then correct me.

btw, whats synergy?

That's not necessarily true. Skills could get more effective via investment in several ways, besides just increasing in damage:

Increased AoE
Decreased Cooldown
Decreased Cost
Increased Range
Decreased cast time
Increased Missle / Attack speed
Increased # of targets
Increased number of hits
Increased Duration

A system like this goes a long way to making the game more "newb friendly" while still retaining a huge advantage for players that focus their characters on certain skills.

Oh yeah, synergies were the things with spells like "charged bolt gains 4% spell damage per level for each point in lightning bolt" type thing. They weren't all that great, and while they made a few skills viable that weren't before they didn't really change things overall.

[Funkopotamus]

I think the solution is to base skills off stats and equipment since those would improve as you level.

[visom]

Didn't you ever play D2 1.10 or later? They added a feature whereby the points you had in a low level skill like Firebolt would increase the power of higher level skills like Fireball, Meteor and Hydra.

That's not necessarily true. Skills could get more effective via investment in several ways, besides just increasing in damage:

Increased AoE
Decreased Cooldown
Decreased Cost
Increased Range
Decreased cast time
Increased Missle / Attack speed
Increased # of targets
Increased number of hits
Increased Duration

A system like this goes a long way to making the game more "newb friendly" while still retaining a huge advantage for players that focus their characters on certain skills.

Oh yeah, synergies were the things with spells like "charged bolt gains 4% spell damage per level for each point in lightning bolt" type thing. They weren't all that great, and while they made a few skills viable that weren't before they didn't really change things overall.

@factotum
I did play D2, I know what a synergy is, but I didn't know what it means.

@5zigen
Well that's not what I meant. I think the OP said he wants skills to lvl up as you lvl up (i might be misunderstanding), if I'm right and that's the case, then it would defeat the purpose in having a lvl1 or lvl30 skill, since if your skill lvls up as you do, then all the skills would be the same.

[5zigen]

@5zigen
Well that's not what I meant. I think the OP said he wants skills to lvl up as you lvl up (i might be misunderstanding), if I'm right and that's the case, then it would defeat the purpose in having a lvl1 or lvl30 skill, since if your skill lvls up as you do, then all the skills would be the same.

He just suggested having skills that go up in power as you level. To me, power means effect as in damage, damage bonus, damage reduction etc.

I don't think (hope) he was trying to eliminate the point of specializing in skills, but he may have been I guess it wasn't super clear.

[Brother Laz]

Synergies shoehorn you into specific builds, even though it should be up to the player to choose skills that work well together, not the game to put big red arrows between arbitrary skills and tell you that 'you must use these two skills together even though you don't want to, because they do more DMGZ that way!'

It also created a situation where it was impossible to diversify because this meant you couldn't put 80 points towards maxing your main attack and therefore your damage would suffer.

[Niniux]

Yeah, I meant that they get a boost as you level up. Not as much of a boost as say pumping points into it. A level 99 with a Rank 1 firebolt would not do as much damage with it as a level 75 with a maxed Firebolt. However, a level 99 with a rank 20 Firebolt could still use that spell and do damage to it against Hell level enemies, instead of having to only rely on his highest tier, rank 20 super armageddon of death spell.

Basically, I propose this so all skills would be useful if you decide to spend points in them as you level up. Right now, in D2, if you max Ice Bolt, it's only for a synergy, because by the time you're playing around in Hell, it's damage is not enough to dent most monsters health, so you're spamming Frozen Orbs instead.

It'd also be good for making high level characters feel even more powerful when visiting low level areas. My level 84 Necro should be able to 1-shot all the enemies in the Blood Moor in Act I Normal with his 1pt in Teeth. I'm not saying my 1 point in Teeth should be any good in Hell, though, just if I were to max it, it'd still be just as useful as maxed Bone Spirit.

[Apocalypse]

i never understood, and probably never will understand, why people expect level 1 skills to be comparable to level 30 skills come end game? why should a firebolt ever in any world be better than fireball? imo the lower skills should be replaced by higher level skills later on, the real balance is do yuo wanna invest points now in a skill to level easier or should you save them for a better high end char? i liked the synergy idea, it was a good way to spend points early and still be able to switch to a high end skill without being gimped.

[konfeta]

Because that essentially kills options if level 1 skills are worthless late game. Higher level skills should open up new tactics, abilities, and options; not just be "Fireball is just firebolt+++ in every way." That's boring, unimaginative, and kills variety.

[blankblank]

i never understood, and probably never will understand, why people expect level 1 skills to be comparable to level 30 skills come end game? why should a firebolt ever in any world be better than fireball? imo the lower skills should be replaced by higher level skills later on, the real balance is do yuo wanna invest points now in a skill to level easier or should you save them for a better high end char? i liked the synergy idea, it was a good way to spend points early and still be able to switch to a high end skill without being gimped.

I'm sorry but you are very wrong in this one, sir. What you are telling us is that level 1,6,12 skills are just fillers, and should not really been invested into since what we need are the level 24 or 30 skills. Guess what that does to us? We don't really invest and use low level skills and just wait for the level 30 skills before using our xx remaining skill points. Result? Low levels are not fun. People tend to hold on to skill points because investing in low level skills are just a waste. Synergies changed that issue, but it was really just a cosmetic change. Investing in firebolt increases meteor damage, but that did'nt interest you into using firebolt did it?

I think Blizzard should get a cue with TitanQuests skill system. I mean take a cue and not copy it.

Example.

Icebolt at level 1. Does cold damage and slows enemies.
When you have invested 5 points to icebolt, it becomes
Icebolt at level 5. DOes cold damage and FREEZES enemies.
then putting more points into it turns it into
Icebolt level 10. Does cold damage and freezes enemies within a radius.
then
Icebolt at level 20. Does cold damage, freezes enemies within a radius, and has x% chance to pass through enemies.

You might say doing that will cause less options because there are actually less skills. But if you look at it carefully, that's just what we have now. icebolt and iceblast are not really skills, they're just there as a prerequisite and are just needed to boost damage to 30 level spells. You dont invest in them to use them.

Same as ice arrow, cold arrow, glacial spike arrow.

[Brother Laz]

i never understood, and probably never will understand, why people expect level 1 skills to be comparable to level 30 skills come end game? why should a firebolt ever in any world be better than fireball? imo the lower skills should be replaced by higher level skills later on, the real balance is do yuo wanna invest points now in a skill to level easier or should you save them for a better high end char?

Because struggling through Act 5 with level 1 Glacial Spike is fun, right?

Actually with 30 skills per character, if half of them become useless, you lose build variety.

In Median, people give me flak for including one bad prereq skill: Guard Tower is an inferior version of Fortress. All others have their use. If I can do that in a mod of a game that isn't supposed to be modded, Blizzard can certainly do it.

Something else of interest is that the two characters with obvious prereq skills, the amazon and sorceress, are at the top of the files: those were the first two characters Blizzard created. They learned. Just look at the druid tree.

i liked the synergy idea, it was a good way to spend points early and still be able to switch to a high end skill without being gimped.

If skills are useful at level 1 throughout Normal then you shouldn't be tempted to waste your points to make the early game less painful.

......

I don't understand why skills just don't increase in power as you level up, considering many of them did in Diablo 1 and all.

Disclaimer: Of course, D1 was a bit weird in this respect. Increasing your Holy Bolt level for instance only increased its missile speed, damage was entirely based on character level. Also, there is the bizarre high level Bloodstar which had some complex damage calculations that added up to less damage than Firebolt, slower speed and 6x the mana cost plus a life cost.

[konfeta]

Yup. And blankblank's example opens up space for new spells because Iceblast/Glacial Spike are essentially not needed anymore.

Alternatively, you could split it up this way:

Icebolt - does good damage, has high cast rate, slows - essentially a very high single target DPS spell, a machinegun if you will.

Iceblast - does great damage, but has slow cast rate, freezes - it's less DPS, but you can maintain better damage output and survivability if you are moving and casting.

Glacial Spike - can be reworked into an eruption/meteor hybrid - target location has a huge ice spike form on it that shatters, knocking back enemies with ice shards that deal physical damage.

Frost Nova - reworked into a strength based on distance - at close range it freezes, at long range it slows. Now it's no longer made completely irrelevant by a spell like Blizzard or Frozen Orb.

Blizzard - pure cold AoE damage, must channel for duration, no cooldown - an AoE Icebolt analogue. Think Inferno that casts Blizzard as opposed to a jet of flame.

There - five spells differentiated, no spell overshadows the other in every situation. A pure cold sorc is viable without the synergy bandaid; spells actually have non-forced synergy between them. Now that there is an ice spell for every basic situation, spend other cold spell slots on making more fun and useful as opposed to "LOL, WHY DID U WASTE THOSE POINTS ON THE LOSER SPELLS" orb, three versions of ice armor, and a filler Ice Mastery. An example of a new useful, unique, non-damage oriented spell to replace one of the armors:

Ice Field - freeze a large patch of land, any walking monster or character that enters is slides across without ability to change direction (a teleport using sorc can have a field day with this). Gives an element of terrain control, gives options to a Sorc to work with targets she can't kill fast or freeze.

etc, etc, etc. You can have a variety of Firespells having a significant afterburn damage on the targets, powerful knockback, armor shattering properties, physical damage component for explosive spells (differentiated from Ice spells by being different physical damage; ice does slashing, fire does concussive/smashing) , etc.. You can have Lightning spells perform disruption of spellcasting, making targets more disoriented (lower accuracy), reduce spell resistances, burn mana, etc.


This kind of skill design has three benefits -

First, no spell should make another spell obsolete in that tree. Not every spell needs to do the exact same secondary effect. Not every spell in the tree needs to focus on the great goal of just doing more damage faster in more places. It's a waste of design time, coding time, and player's time.

Second, it gives the possibility to make late game more tactical and challenging. Now that a Sorc isn't 99% damage oriented, you can create monsters that a Sorc will simply not be capable of gunning down without breaking a sweat - she will have to intelligently use her abilities to avoid getting killed while killing them in return. None of that "LOLZ, HALF DA MONSTARS HAVE COLD IMMUNE! THE REST DIE LIKE FLIES. BUT ITS BALANCED AND FUN AND IS TOTALLY CHALLANGING YOUR TACTICAL SKILLZ!"

Third, continuing with the Sorc as an example, it produces builds that can safely take spells from all three trees that they like as opposed to being forced to pick the "best spell" from every tree:

Think how much more fun and spectacular a Sorc would be if she could zip around, setting people on fire and throwing them all over the place with knockback; electrocuting casters and archers into non-usefulness; and making melee oriented monsters helplessly chase her around a battlefield; some frozen, some slowed, some happily slinging around it with no control over their motion.A tri-element sorc with skills that she picks and chooses based on her playstyle, as opposed to just going for the "best skill in every tree." If you have lower level skills as viable as higher level skills, you massively improve the variety in builds.

A tri-element sorc should not be punished with significantly lower damage output. A single-element sorc should not be punished when she encounters a high resist or immune monster when all of her spells are just "MOAR DAMAGE, MOAR AOE!"

A sorc that specs in lower level abilities should not be completely ineffectual late game at damage output (the lower level abilities should be damage staples with minor secondary effects). A sorc that specs in high level abilities should have more ways to deal with monsters (Druid-like damage duality, powerful secondary effects) to compensate for the fact that she is heavily investing in a single tree to reach them.

I am not saying there shouldn't be bad builds - a Sorc that just focuses on pretty AoE spells will be boned when fighting powerful singular monsters. A Sorc that picks all secondary effect focusing abilities will have low damage output. A Sorc that only gets single target damage spells will naturally be slower at killing than one that balances her skill picks. I am saying that a Sorc, or any class for that matter, shouldn't be cursed with skill obsolescence within a tree.


Yeah, my rant is done :crazyeyes:.

[Apocalypse]

the problem with d2 is the skill tress. a firebolt should never be better than a fireball but if they set the trees up better than the lower skills would have a different use than the higher level ones. for instance the barb had masteries at level 1(or 6) which were worth investing points into but the sorc only had stuff like warmth or static field. both were good but never needed more than a single point. the real problem like i said is how they set up the trees.

[blankblank]

A tri-element sorc should not be punished with significantly lower damage output. A single-element sorc should not be punished when she encounters a high resist or immune monster when all of her spells are just "MOAR DAMAGE, MOAR AOE!"

yes i second this. My pre 1.10 sorc was tri elemental and was able to finish hell solo. post 1.10 she was useless.

i think the main point is remove level x spells if they are just there because they just need to, rather being really useful at all.

they can change skill tree to that like of TQ, or semi TQ where low level spells can be improved upon.

[Arbedark]

Konfeta, good post, but a couple of points:

Tri-Element builds SHOULD be punished with lower damage due to the fact that they can deal with absolutely any immune, now not as punished as they are in D2, but they shouldn't have 80% of the damage with each attack that a single element sorc does, or even a dual element.

And the point that level 1 skills should be as good as level 30, if they were a level 21 character would have the same killing ability as a level 50 character, assuming they max a level 1 and a level 30 skill respectively...

[Brother Laz]

Of course we are assuming there are things like a damage bonus from energy, scaling damage with level and wider availability of +% spell damage gear.

In D2 it is completely impossible to balance a level 1 skill because people can max it at Duriel. This is one of the reasons they introduced synergies.

[konfeta]

TQ's system wouldn't really fit - that game doesn't really have classes. You build a strong character by mixing masteries and using their synergies wisely. So every tree can afford to spend 1-3 skill slots on being direct improvements on a base ability. Look at defense - it essentially has 8 skills that modify another skill. We can't have an entire skill tree composed of 3-4 attacks and have the rest of the tree modify those attacks.

Tri-Element builds SHOULD be punished with lower damage due to the fact that they can deal with absolutely any immune, now not as punished as they are in D2, but they shouldn't have 80% of the damage with each attack that a single element sorc does, or even a dual element.

I don't feel that way. For one I think, single immunities should be rare, and dual+ immunities should be absolute no-no - it's just not fun gameplay design to have whole swathes of monster you can't touch. Two, if the sorc was designed with the vision I put forth, a full single tree sorc would have access to more than one damage type. The fire spells clearly burn people, but why shouldn't an explosive orb produce physical damage? Three, a single element sorc wouldn't truly lack versatility or strategy - I propose a tree made of a couple key damage spells without redundancy, and a some of supporting abilities.

A tri element-sorc would essentially have to choose spells that allow her to deal with a variety of situations - so single target, disable, AoE, etc. Since she seeks versatility in spell damage, she would have to pick a single target DPS spell from one tree, an AoE from another, a general versatile attack from the third, etc. After getting the essentials from different trees, she would lack access in terms of pre-reqs and points to some of them more advanced spells. What she gains in versatility of damage and potential synergy between different trees, she loses in the full slew of strategy available to a single element sorc. Which means, if she does significantly less damage, she is screwed.

Of course, for this to be possible, for tri-element, dual-element, and single-element sorcs to be both balanced, different, creative, and fun; the skill trees would have to be really well designed. Like, super-quality to the max.

And the point that level 1 skills should be as good as level 30, if they were a level 21 character would have the same killing ability as a level 50 character, assuming they max a level 1 and a level 30 skill respectively...

And that needs to be abolished. It is the main reason why there is a disbalance between casters and fighters. Both or neither should be gear dependent, otherwise somebody gets royally screwed. If you tailor casters to be as strong as melee late game, than melee gets the joy of being inferior to casters for the whole game only to catch up to them in the end. If you design gear dependency to the point where fighters outstrip casters simply because they get more out of equipment, you screw over casters late game.

Doing that will also free up plenty of headaches such as the one you put forth. A level 50 character has better gear, and even with identical point investment, will be kicking more arse with the same spells than the lower character in addition to kicking arse with spells the lower character doesn't have.

[Arbedark]

Firstly, regarding the level 1 skill vs level 30 skill, why not have them finish in power at the same time.

For example, you can't place a skill point every level into a level 1 skill, maybe 1 skill point every 3 levels, so a level 1 skill can be maxed at level 60. And a level 30 skill can place 2 skill points every 3 levels, also maxing at 30.

I still feel immunities should be in the game, and relatively frequently, but I think going single or dual element should have larger bonus' than 125% of the damage of a tri-element or whatever.

[konfeta]

That is an artificial barrier and tremendously difficult to properly balance. Immunities are a gear requirement check. No amount of tactics or creative play will allow a single-element sorc to regularly deal with them. Diablo 2 failed hard in that regard. The only way you can have single element Sorc is if you have unnaturally powerful gear such as Infinity and a crapload of Rainbow Facets.

Element immunities are similiar to D2's implementation of the Iron Maiden curse. They are simply not fun to deal with.

[Arbedark]

That is an artificial barrier and tremendously difficult to properly balance. Immunities are a gear requirement check. No amount of tactics or creative play will allow a single-element sorc to regularly deal with them. Diablo 2 failed hard in that regard. The only way you can have single element Sorc is if you have unnaturally powerful gear such as Infinity and a crapload of Rainbow Facets.

Yes, the only way at the moment. Which is why I'd like to see single element sorc's get a benefit from being single element.

As it stands immunities aren't terribly well implemented, but its nothing insurmountable.

I'd like to see plenty of single immunes in D3, and make only Bosses or whatever dual immune.

And why are you for tri-elementals having nearly the damage of single elementals if you want single immunes to be very rare?

If that was to happen tri-elementals would have a MASSIVE advantage due to being able to select the spell which the target is least resistant to.

[konfeta]

And a single element sorc will have massive advantage in terms whatever advantages that tree was designed with.

For example, a Cold Sorc will be able to turn melee monsters into playthings, maintaining high defense and terrain control.

A fire sorc would have higher firepower, plenty of motion disruptive abilities, powerful short duration damage over time (allowing maintaining high damage while mobile), etc.

A lightning sorc could have abilities that make it more difficult for her enemies to target her, such as skill disruption, attack disruptions, mana burn, whatever.

The variety, balance, and power of builds available to the class is directly dependant on how well the class is designed. If you design every tree a "bigger picture," the one that rewards the person specializing in it with something other than higher damage, that something else being an entire play style that emerges for a variety of powerful secondary effects that work well together.

Once again, by my example - design the fire tree with lots of flair and boom, fast pace minded spells, powerful short duration DoTs, knockbacks, etc. Design the ice tree for the more careful sorc player, with plenty of slow downs, disables, defensive abilities, battle field control. Design the lightning tree with powerful offensive-defensive abilities, something that directly reduces effectiveness of enemy fighters, spellcasters, archers, etc.

A fire sorc would be the one that can disrupt and obliterate an army the fastest - at expense of being the most fragile, twitch to play. A cold sorc would be defensive, methodical. A lightning sorc would be most capable to deal with dangerous opponents with a balance of damage, defense, and powerful debuffs.

A tri-element sorc wouldn't be able to fully access a distinct play style avaivable to a single element sorc - reliant on a mixing the weaker advantages of each school. Why should she suffer a criminally lower damage output for electing a different playstyle?

[blankblank]

For example, you can't place a skill point every level into a level 1 skill, maybe 1 skill point every 3 levels, so a level 1 skill can be maxed at level 60. And a level 30 skill can place 2 skill points every 3 levels, also maxing at 30.

This is really the way to go to avoid having placeholder level 1 spells. The mistake here is that we are stuck with the idea of Level 1,6,x,x,x,x spells when we shouldn't. if you think that way, then level 1's should really be weaker than level 30's and that would mean that level 1's should not be invested upon, thus making them placeholder spells that nobody uses. Just remove the notion of spell levels. Instead we can have a variety of spells available at low level, and then they can be improved upon vastly by allotting skill points to them.

Who needs ice bolt, ice blast, glacial spike when you have blizzard and frozen orb? Synergies were the wrong way to go. Putting points into icebolt is meant to improve blizzard, and you still end up not using icebolt

[Apocalypse]

more passive skills would be a way to allow lower level skills to remain usefull through out the game. also why does your best damage skill have to come at level 30, maybe those skills can be level 18 or whatever the new system may be and some of the better passives end at the top of the tree. just a thought cause as i read this i am seeing some good points and its clear that some improvements can be made

[RawBanana]

Great thread.

I agree with a lot of the points made here. I think the D2X skill system wastes a lot of low level spells. I feel, ideally, each skill should be so special and fun that they can build an effective build out of it.

Moreover, each build based on each skill will be different to play in a good way. Not like those Enchant Sorceress or Double Throwing Barbarians who make such a good read because they are so impossible to play.

But low end skills cannot start with a frozen orb. They would make low level play too easy or just wierd when u have AOE spells. Part of the fun in a game is watching your character grow and learning how to use every skill.

Based on my theories, I got bored and created some skill trees for 7 possible characters. http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=679899

I tried to combine skills like Glacial Spike and Ice Blast together to prevent wasting low end spells. So the new skill freezes the target and at higher levels, hits harder and does a frost nova with increasing radius. Effectively limiting its effectiveness at low levels but giving a Glacial Spike at higher levels.

Other considerations that have been made are balancing for flexibility and power. Single tree Sorceresses will always have more firepower but they will have a lot of trouble in Hell against 2+ immunity monsters. Effectively, I think all viable builds for Hell must have at least 2 basic types of damage (ice, fire, lightning, physical, poison) of damage in order to be viable in Hell. And still they will have to run away from some monsters. That is life in Hell.

Players who choose 3 trees need to select carefully or they will gimp themselves for damage. Again that is part of the fun of managing and planning your character. A well designed character should have many viable builds for Hell. Viable builds mean that they should do enough damage although some may find it easy to manage crowds (Ice tree) where other builds find they can kill lots of things but they move slowly (Hydra sorceresses).

But giving single tree focused builds an option is a good idea. eg. I would give Lighting/Fire/Cold Mastery the ability to add +1% per skill level extra physical damage to current spells. That gives them a partial 2nd type of damage to be more viable in Hell.

I also had the idea that high level skills like Fire Mastery would give all low level spells additional effects. Like "ignite" which burns enemies for more damage. So firebolts become igniting, piercing, fireball machine guns. Sounds fun.

[5zigen]

One really more interesting suggestion is to rip off the mythos skill trees or their underlying ideas.

Basically, why not just put all of the skills learnable at level 1 and have them increase in power as you level, and have each with it's own talent branch that you can dump points into to improve the skill.

The other option would be to take the skill system from WoW, where all the characters get all their class skills but they then differentiate themselves via their talent trees.

[Dwovar]

What if instead of set elemental trees, there were spell effect trees. I'll try to explain. These spell effect trees contribute to your ability to cast spells.

Elements Tab: Here you can select from different elements. The first available are all level 1 with Fire, Ice, and Lightning. Level 6 grants the ability to get elemental effects. Burn (long DoT), Chill (long duration), or Daze (reduced AR, Def, Resist). Level 12 gives you mixed elemental/physical damage. Level 18 improves the effects. Ignite (short duration DoT that affects nearby enemies), Freeze (short duration), and Stun (short stun). Level 24 lets you do elemental/magic (bonespear 'element') and the pinnacle 30 ability is Magic Physical. Magic/Physical may be less resisted, but has no effects.

A lot of points in the elemental and mixed elemental abilities increases damage and determines which spells you can cast. Without any points in here (this might be stupid) any spell cast is spectral. Using a random, unmodified, effectless element. Now that in itself could be fun, but those that invest in elements get a great return for damage and possible effects.

1 6 12 18 24 30
Fire------->Burn------F/Phys---->Ignite---->F/Mag

Ice-------->Chill-----I/Phys---->Freeze---->I/Mag Mag/Phys

Lightning-->Daze------L/Phys---->Stun------>L/Mag


Spell Tab: This tab gives you actual spells. Spells like bolt hit a single target decently hard and are cheap. Ball instead explodes in a small AoE. Others create Walls, Novas, Infernos, Chains, etc. New spells could be Field, that are large AoEs that hang around like blizzard but only inflict the elemental effect. Bane, which sustains like inferno against a single creature at long range, progressively hitting harder. Wander, which meanders around like charged bolt, twister, or firestorm. And so one and so forth until out of ideas.

Whenever you put a point in a spell you can cast it as either a spectral, or using one of your elements from the element tab. It gains the benefits of your elemental effects unless otherwise stated. Adding points to a particular spell increases the spell's power. Increasing damage faster than the elemental abilities, but only for that spell. This allows for mastery of any single spell, none of them becoming useless.


Utility Tab
Here could go the hard and set spells that aren't found elsewhere. Teleport, Telekenisis, Mana Shield, etc, etc and so on.

Although it would require a lot of visual programming, if the actual spell types were kept limited, say to 9 spells (the number of different spells on the old sorceress's skill tab) then it wouldn't be much more than the old sorceress's spells. A mixed elemental/physical spell wouldn't have to look any different, and a mixed elemental/magic would only need a filter, say brightness + 20%. That would leave the Physical/Magic tree, essentially adding one tab to the D2 sorceress. No big deal.

The programming itself could be unwielding, but really, not too bad. After all, only the damage types and debuffs change. Turning a spell from fire to fire/magic isn't that bad, it just becomes a 50/50 like corpse explosion. The debuffs would be variations of whats already there (daze would be like a lower resist curse+).


But, theres the risk that that isn't very Diablo-like. Except for the necromancer, there aren't a lot of skills that exist purely to affect other skills.

[blankblank]

i wouldn't want more passive just because they are not that interesting compared to active spells. Though some are good, like pierce, warmth, critical strike. I don't imagine myself being excited reaching level 18 and saying "Wow!, once I'm level up I'll be more resistant to the elements!"

[blankblank]

Gee. I forgot to mention too about overlapping skills between classes that does not have sense. Talk about immolation arrow and freezing(?) arrow.

Glacial spike at level 20 does 247-266 damage, freezes for 4.2 secs, and has radius of 2.6 yards.

Freezing arrow at level 20 does 310-320 damage, freezes for 2 secs, and has radius of 3.3 yards. Plus, it has additional base damage!

and i thought the sorc was the master of the elements and not the amazon?

[Niniux]

Konfeta, you have hit the nail on the head at exactly what I was trying to get at.

The first few skills every class has access to should be the main damage skills and then as the skills branch out they become more specialized. That doesn't eliminate the need to the more specialized skills, because they would make surviving and eliminating more powerful enemies easier, but you don't have to worry about a gimped damage potential because nothing makes a character feel more useless.