Announced: No Hostility in D3

[Full_Circle]

http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=686520

I especially like how this guy (The lead designer on D3, I've been told), doesn't understand how hostility works.

However, what I do not like are the implications.

They don't know what they're going to do for PvP, but they know they're getting rid of 'Hostility.' I don't have a problem with that decision. What I have a problem with is what he revealed about how they came to that decision. They made a blanket decision for D3 based entirely on the "whine factor." People who get TPPKed whine a lot (which is fine), but this guy doesn't even take the time to understand what they're whining about. He strikes me as a person who's either A) Never played D2 in his life, or B) Never played HC. This is the guy calling the shots... a guy given the greatest two-game series in the history of gaming, and he's too lazy to do his job. My hopes for D3 have dropped significantly since reading that interview.

And here's my prediction...

There will be no Hardcore in Diablo 3.

And my 2nd prediction...

There will be no Trebol in Diablo 3 if I'm right.

[Ankeli]

*Sigh* Asshats. (http://www.myconfinedspace.com/watermark.php?src=wp-content/uploads/2007/03/bear-how-about-no.jpg)

I hope they still include Hardcore, but I can't see a way to make hardcore pk'ing work without hostility-toggle. PvP, sure, in separate arenas or something... but no pk'ing :/

[Toothache]

Both parties should accept a hostile status before being allowed to be attacked by a player, rather than it just needing one person to go hostile. That way, people can refuse to duel and be safe of not being killed, and those people who wish to duel can consent. Seems the most logical way to me

[ZappaFan]

I thought was he was saying was pretty reasonable. Sounds like the motivation is wanting to avoid the whole tppk problem. He says "insta-kill". What he's describing is exactly how tppk-hostility works.

http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=686520

I especially like how this guy (The lead designer on D3, I've been told), doesn't understand how hostility works.

However, what I do not like are the implications.

They don't know what they're going to do for PvP, but they know they're getting rid of 'Hostility.' I don't have a problem with that decision. What I have a problem with is what he revealed about how they came to that decision. They made a blanket decision for D3 based entirely on the "whine factor." People who get TPPKed whine a lot (which is fine), but this guy doesn't even take the time to understand what they're whining about. He strikes me as a person who's either A) Never played D2 in his life, or B) Never played HC. This is the guy calling the shots... a guy given the greatest two-game series in the history of gaming, and he's too lazy to do his job. My hopes for D3 have dropped significantly since reading that interview.

And here's my prediction...

There will be no Hardcore in Diablo 3.

And my 2nd prediction...

There will be no Trebol in Diablo 3 if I'm right.

[5zigen]

http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=686520

I especially like how this guy (The lead designer on D3, I've been told), doesn't understand how hostility works.

However, what I do not like are the implications.

They don't know what they're going to do for PvP, but they know they're getting rid of 'Hostility.' I don't have a problem with that decision. What I have a problem with is what he revealed about how they came to that decision. They made a blanket decision for D3 based entirely on the "whine factor." People who get TPPKed whine a lot (which is fine), but this guy doesn't even take the time to understand what they're whining about. He strikes me as a person who's either A) Never played D2 in his life, or B) Never played HC. This is the guy calling the shots... a guy given the greatest two-game series in the history of gaming, and he's too lazy to do his job. My hopes for D3 have dropped significantly since reading that interview.

And here's my prediction...

There will be no Hardcore in Diablo 3.

And my 2nd prediction...

There will be no Trebol in Diablo 3 if I'm right.

Dropping the hostility system was an incredibly logical move from a design standpoint. Non Consented pvp is a negative of the game no matter how you look at it.

I doubt they will drop hardcore because they dropped non consented pvp (i.e. the hostile system). I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion just because people who had been tppk'd whined (note that SC players tended to whine when tppk'ed also).

The logic for dropping Hostility mode hinged on the fact that that mode discouraged both group play and public play. There is no such link to that and hardcore. Hardcore, in actuality, tends to encourage cooperative play much more than discourage it. However that was all stifled with the existence of tppk...

Whine all you want, but this will remove an extra layer of greifing that that game really didn't need.

[Full_Circle]

I doubt they will drop hardcore because they dropped non consented pvp (i.e. the hostile system). I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion just because people who had been tppk'd whined (note that SC players tended to whine when tppk'ed also).

This is a new game. They're starting from scratch and ignoring traditions, as this interview made very clear. There is no "dropping hardcore." The question is whether they think it's important enough to take the time to include hardcore.

Considering Blizzard's ignore the hardcore players policy for the last few years and the fact that the lead designer has shown us without a doubt that he's never played hardcore on bnet, I'd say the chances are very slim.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

I feel that on the side of all our games, we really try to make PvP games that cater to a competitive player, first and foremost. We don't try to dumb down or tone down our PvP games. We make [them] good, strong competitive games. StarCraft is one of the best examples.
I lol'd.

More so than the move to remove hostility, the fact that I'm thinking we've got another WoW on our hands, with constant nerf calls and requests for free items from whiners who think they need to "compete" in a game that's really just a massive timesink that has no semblance of balance beyond RPS/metagame, is what really bugs me.

But whatever, we'll have to see what happens.
Removing hostility doesn't really come as a surprise, they hinted at it a while ago... it makes me sad, but it's one I can handle. The concept that the game should be competitive though... isn't that what SC2 is for?

Edit: Treb, if there's no hostility, then why would you assume there's no HC? It seems to me that hostility is only a big deal in HC, so such an early/emphatic announcement that it won't be there seems to me that we're still getting the fun mode in the game. Another possibility is giving us a PvP mode (as in WoW, only without factions) where you're opting out of hostility by joining a group, rather than the other way around... that's one we have to wait and see on.

[Galabab]

What is the hole point in HC mode if they take the thrill of danger lurking bihind each corner. When u see that high level coming into your game and knowing "alrite im the game now and hes the hunter" and if i outsmart the cocky aggressor its almost just as fun for me as being the hunter.

BLIZZARD PLZ KEEP HOSTILITY AND HC JUST AS IS!

[Omikron8]

it's more like

"hey a high level i'll party with him so he can help me kill X act boss"

"oh hey he went hostile and there's a blizzard raining on my head"

give people the option of fighting fair or cheating and they'll take the second route every time

[TheDarkSide]

I think they are going to eliminate the Pvp aspect of the game in D3 . Its going to be arena style for all your Pvp action from now on . Too many Hackers ruined the pvp aspect of D2 ..

Which really doesnt bode well for the new and improved Bnet V2 Imo . And basically admits that they cannot keep out the hackers but they will just remove a part of the game to compensate for that ..

I'll have to agree with Trebs in that No Hardcore Mode = no TheDarkSide in D3 ...

[5zigen]

I think they are going to eliminate the Pvp aspect of the game in D3 . Its going to be arena style for all your Pvp action from now on . Too many Hackers ruined the pvp aspect of D2 ..

Which really doesnt bode well for the new and improved Bnet V2 Imo . And basically admits that they cannot keep out the hackers but they will just remove a part of the game to compensate for that ..

I'll have to agree with Trebs in that No Hardcore Mode = no TheDarkSide in D3 ...

even without hacking or tppk, there was never anything to be gained by non consented pk.

In fact, if anything removing the non consented pk is more likely to improve the HC game than the SC game.

[Baranor]

slong as they keep HC,I'm ok with this. no HC, no Barry.

[xOSERx]

I thought HC was more like "Oh look, someone twice my level went hostile"

*esc*

*click*

*chat screen*

But maybe I'm just a wuss...

[zrk]

I thought HC was more like "Oh look, someone twice my level went hostile"

*esc*

*click*

*chat screen*

But maybe I'm just a wuss...

Dont underestimate your own laziness :thumbup: And not just in PvP situations

[Omikron8]

you need to be a man and stand your ground and die against that high level

you are HARDCORE aren't you ? hardcore people don't run away from danger

[Garisdacar]

yeah, and ppl who are HARDCORE don't hunt guys half their level either, right? guys who are HARDCORE don't rush you a couple acts and then kill you just to laugh at you as a n00b.

this change will improve play for hundreds of ppl who just want to play the game.

[deadbeater]

No hostility? That means...arenas! Yes! Pkillers, go the f away! Don't beg me to rush your characters.

[Frostraven]

What is the hole point in HC mode if they take the thrill of danger lurking bihind each corner. When u see that high level coming into your game and knowing "alrite im the game now and hes the hunter" and if i outsmart the cocky aggressor its almost just as fun for me as being the hunter.

BLIZZARD PLZ KEEP HOSTILITY AND HC JUST AS IS!

Seriously.

If you're a level 50 character and a level 85 pvp sorc enters the game.
You will not win.
You will not escape.
You will die unless you get to safety.

Yay -- It's a thrill the first time.
Not for me. But I constantly hear about people like you who enjoy it.
I do not.
I do not know about anyone who plays HC (who doesn't PK) who likes beeing hunted.
Not the first time. Not ever.

Which... leads me to believe you like PK-ing people.
Or you're just one of those guys who loves to run into heavy traffic all day long.

If there was different factions. Ok.
The assassin working for the devils comes out of the shadows to kill the sorceress of light.
Fair.
There is no other side than the side of light in the game though.

When a paladin comes out of nowhere and takes a piss on your paladin and takes your gear out of the blue.

It's out of place.
It's out of role.
It is disgusting.

It's one of the things which is wrong with the game.
I've never looked at the hero of Diablo II as a mass-murdering evil bastard who Tyrael would rather mop the floor with than to assist.
I've never seen Diablo II as multi-threaded where you choose to play as evil or good.

Anyways.
No out of the blue insta-PK?

Good riddance.
I do hope there will be factions.

War is fine.
Backstabbing is not.

[ThulRasha]

I have taken that quote, made it a bit darker and added some grit filter on it:
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7974/blizquotewv3.jpg

I think it looks much better now. Lets make a petition.

[ZappaFan]

One of the problems with non-consensual PvP is that it's totally slanted in favor of the PK'er. Just think about it terms of character build. The PK'ers have a big advantage in making their build specifically suited for PvP while the PvM'er isn't. Most good PvM builds do not also defend well against PK of a similar character level. So there really isn't anything romantic about the notion of a PvM player staying in a game to take on another human character that enters the game and hostiles. The only time it's a fair fight is when a PK'er takes on higher level players.

[Dahkar]

I believe this is ridiculous, and just plain laziness on blizzards part. They do not want to deal with TPPK, so they take the easy way out. No one actually dies from the hostility unless they:

A. Are tppked.

or

B. They choose to stay.

Honestly, how often does a legit PK'er actually "ruin" a game as well. It is much more often tppk. If a legit PK'er hunts you, you have plenty of chances to get away.

[Hodl Pu]

On soft core, if you get TPPKED, big whoop? Just retrieve your body when he leaves are just rejoin.

On hardcore, if you get TPPKED, too bad. But really, why would a person who is scared of losing his character even play HC? People who play HC LIKE the risk and most of them know how to take care of their characters from dying in all situations (from PK's to NPC's). Honestly, the only people complaining about TPPKER's in HC are those who have probably played it for the first time without knowing the risks involved.

On softcore, there really is no need need to whine at all.


Well anyway... I just wanted to point that out because it bugged me. As for my opinion, the button can go if they want, as long as HC stays.

[Mizantrop]

I see no reason why D3 won't have HC in it what so ever. But I can see a nice concept in an arena or something like that where you can't die just lose or win. That way you can dual in HC just for the fun of it if you are tired of PVM.

[ThulRasha]

Why all the worry over TPPK?
Last I heard, town portals will not be in D3. (despite seeing one in the gameplay trailer).

[Akse]

At least we have some less hack/script attempts to worry about when there is not even possibility to kill another player just like that. No matter what online game where you get to kill other players or grief them in some way there have been cheats to help you do that.

Why all the worry over TPPK?
Maybe because TPPK is just the latest form of cheating.

There have been many ways to to kill people in the past by exploiting the game mechanics or by the flaws in the game.
Anyone remember:
dualwield bug/hack that allowed you to dualwield 2h weapons(spears etc) when you entered the screen of a player that didn't have the hack active he would timeout from the game and you would get easy kill-

another timeout type of killing bug was the cow portal outside town.. when you mouseovered the portal you would timeout.

Of course if these things always keep evolving we would come to a point where one could just instantly kill another one without even hostiling.. I suppose some of these have also been around sometimes.. not so popular tho.

[ThulRasha]

Latest? TPPK is old.

And please don't misquote like that. The 2 lines in my post go together. Quoting just a single one completely misses the point.
If there are no town portals, why worry about town portal player killing?

I do understand that you only used it as example, but the topic was starting to become about tppk, it seemed.

[Akse]

Yeah people wouldn't need to worry about tppk but what I meant there would be other forms of cheating for sure.

TPPK is old but it is the most used and annoying thing there has been in the last year or so.. thats why latest.. maybe latest problem.

tppk has been around since before LOD where first hydra and firewall pks came around but back then you didn't have a program to do the hostility for you. But yeah I guess the scripts came along when they put the hostile delay when you enter town.

[Jarath]

Honestly, how often does a legit PK'er actually "ruin" a game as well.

"Ruin" might be a strong word but anyone who forces me to hide in town or S&E is certainly a disruptive annoyance. One that I shouldn't really have to put up with.

On hardcore, if you get TPPKED, too bad. But really, why would a person who is scared of losing his character even play HC? People who play HC LIKE the risk and most of them know how to take care of their characters from dying in all situations (from PK's to NPC's). Honestly, the only people complaining about TPPKER's in HC are those who have probably played it for the first time without knowing the risks involved.

Swing and a miss. The reason TPPK is complained about is because the mere threat of if is enough to drive almost the entire HC community into playing private games.

One of the problems with non-consensual PvP is that it's totally slanted in favor of the PK'er. Just think about it terms of character build. The PK'ers have a big advantage in making their build specifically suited for PvP while the PvM'er isn't. Most good PvM builds do not also defend well against PK of a similar character level. So there really isn't anything romantic about the notion of a PvM player staying in a game to take on another human character that enters the game and hostiles. The only time it's a fair fight is when a PK'er takes on higher level players

Correct. Easily fixed by creating classes and skills that are not so obviously slanted one way or another.

[Zerosugar]

http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=686520

I especially like how this guy (The lead designer on D3, I've been told), doesn't understand how hostility works.

However, what I do not like are the implications.

They don't know what they're going to do for PvP, but they know they're getting rid of 'Hostility.' I don't have a problem with that decision. What I have a problem with is what he revealed about how they came to that decision. They made a blanket decision for D3 based entirely on the "whine factor." People who get TPPKed whine a lot (which is fine), but this guy doesn't even take the time to understand what they're whining about. He strikes me as a person who's either A) Never played D2 in his life, or B) Never played HC. This is the guy calling the shots... a guy given the greatest two-game series in the history of gaming, and he's too lazy to do his job. My hopes for D3 have dropped significantly since reading that interview.

And here's my prediction...

There will be no Hardcore in Diablo 3.

And my 2nd prediction...

There will be no Trebol in Diablo 3 if I'm right.

I used to be a griefer pvp'er in some of the MMO's i have played starting with Everquest back in 99'. Im a big fan of PvP and sometimes griefing but in a consensus form. Not the lame duels where you "Hey wanna duel?" *bows* "lets begin" sort of way..that has nothing to do with true pvp imho. The way you consent is by playing on pvp enabled servers/games and run the risk of getting killed. The way it is in D2 is there is no way to avoid pvp (which there should be) if you create an open game. All you can do is try and be fast with a portal and wait for them to leave. People should have an option not to pvp as well as having the option of being able to pvp. The whole D2 PvP system is flawed and cater to the antisocial TPPK'ers. Leave players the option of creating PvP enabled games would be a good solution instead of forcing people who has no interest in it to participate in some morons form of fun

[Spero]

I love the risk of being PKed in public games where I don't know anyone. I think it makes HC a lot more fun. Otherwise it's the same thing every time and why play the game more than once?

I also think it's a blast to wait for the pker to come and try to kill my character. I would build as strong a character as possible and some times the pker had to flux. Good times. :jig:

[Omikron8]

and you think the majority of HC players share your viewpoint ?

[Unholy_VI]

It sounds to me like they

plan to have PVP servers like in Wow. If they do that's fine with me. I can't imagine anything much more fun than a pvp hc server for me to enjoy. Then all you carebears can stick to your own server and never have to worry about ol Unholy comin for your ear.

I mean, you'll still whine I'm sure but that's because it's just your nature.

[Zerosugar]

It sounds to me like they

plan to have PVP servers like in Wow. If they do that's fine with me. I can't imagine anything much more fun than a pvp hc server for me to enjoy. Then all you carebears can stick to your own server and never have to worry about ol Unholy comin for your ear.

I mean, you'll still whine I'm sure but that's because it's just your nature.

bla bla bla my e-peen is bigger than yours you keyboard toughguy

I'm all for different servers or a toggle option that gives people options ..it's the only thing that makes sense.

[Relativity]

The only real PvP-oriented decision that we've made and announced is that we do not allow the "hostility mode" that Diablo II had where you can go into town, go hostile, pop back through a town portal, and insta-kill your friend.
Am I the only one who thinks he isn't talking about TPPK, and that the guy doesn't know how the current game mechanics work?

He just said:
1) Go to town
2) Go hostile
3) Pop back through a town portal
4) Kill friend

Which isn't even possible. If he meant TPPK he would have said:

1) Go to town
2) Go hostile
3) Insta-kill friend

RIP Blizzard North.

[Tai.]

That's exactly how I read it sir.

Seems to me that he believes you can take your own portals while hostile, which makes me a tad confused to say the least. If they split the servers and the duel system is FUNCTIONAL that's great. If they split the servers and we end up with a HC PvP server with chicken, auto-aim, farcast and all that crap again (which is what I suspect is more likely) then the PvPers will be royally screwed as they won't have any way to scrounge up legit ears - which is why many PvPers I know turned to PK.

[Tashohnie]

I must admit I have just started baal run PKing and its great fun. So many childish kids giving insults its rather funny. Damn armchair warriors -.-

[sleep]

Hostile servers and friendly servers?

eg. Hostile servers = more exp/ bigger drop rate etc, and keep the old hostility system.

Friendly servers would have normal exp / drop rate etc and no hostility.

Just throwing it out there...

[MoUsE_WiZ]

Why on earth would you put more exp/drop rate on the other servers?

[Relativity]

Greater risk, greater reward? Novel concept imo. >_>

[Tanis]

What about something like "if someone goes hostile in town, you have 2 seconds to hit an 'opt out switch'...He/she can't PK ya then, just laugh at ya sissyness... (that way you can still game with your friends in the same game) This 'opt out' is not allowed if you have attacked anyone in that same game, and/or in the last XYZ amount of time.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

Greater risk, greater reward? Novel concept imo. >_>
Flawed concept in this case.

The risk comes from the difficulty and/or time associated with gathering the exp/items. Not only that, but since we're seperate from the SC player pool, we don't actually get richer as we're just competing against people who have the same drop/exp rates, so there's not actually any reward either.

Basically all that happens is the game gets boring and ends that much sooner.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

well, why would you want to play with someone else? They can go hostile at any time and kill you, mostly in an exploitative way. It's not fair - most of the time you'll be dead before you realise they're attacking.
Another interview...
See, he knows it's TPPK (or at least an exploit) that does the instant killing.

Also fun:
The average game size for Diablo II on Battle.net is 1.2 players
Given the prevelence of bots, I'm not sure that "average game size of 1.2" is really a good arguement for a need to improve co-op play by removing hostility. Especially when you're aware the only reason it's "instant" is due to an exploit which has no business existing. Especially when hostility only really effects HC, which surely is not a huge contributor to the number of games being taken into account in the average.

Oh wells.

[Tai.]

The 1.2 I would think is almost entirely people MFing or botting.

[gregkennedy]

I have taken that quote, made it a bit darker and added some grit filter on it:
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7974/blizquotewv3.jpg

I think it looks much better now. Lets make a petition.

win for all eternity

[MoUsE_WiZ]

From the video posted on this site (http://diablo3.battlenet.pl/portal/d3/1/99/Wywiad_Battlenetpl_z_Jayem_Wilsonem_i_Rayem_Gresko .html):

They are not going to focus on D3 as an esport.
I'm ecstatic about that... it was my single biggest "I hope they don't WoW it up" issue going forwards =)

Not really related to the hostility debate, but meh.

Edit, same video but even more unrelated: apparently Jay Wilson is taking inspiration from dota XD

[classix]

Flawed concept in this case.

The risk comes from the difficulty and/or time associated with gathering the exp/items. Not only that, but since we're seperate from the SC player pool, we don't actually get richer as we're just competing against people who have the same drop/exp rates, so there's not actually any reward either.

Basically all that happens is the game gets boring and ends that much sooner.

you clearly never played hardcore classic. i feel sorry for you.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

you clearly never played hardcore classic. i feel sorry for you.
Um... what?

[GoDSamurai]

do not allow the "hostility mode" that Diablo II had where you can go into town, go hostile, pop back through a town portal, and insta-kill your friend. That just makes people not want to play the game.
I completely agree on this. I am not saying to remove PVP totally, but that kind of cheap move must be removed.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

I completely agree on this. I am not saying to remove PVP totally, but that kind of cheap move must be removed.

Good thing that kind of cheap move was never, at any point, a part of D2 then...

[Frostraven]

Yes. Because the insta-kill happens two steps earlier:

Wrong: you can go into town, go hostile, pop back through a town portal, and insta-kill your friend

Correct: you can go into town, go hostile and your friend dies

Because... you know... that small difference makes it so much more better.
"Oh. You don't have to be where he is to kill him, you stay in safety, thats a lot more fair than killing him face to face in the wild!"

Seriously.

Four people were killed in a car accident. How awfu... what? Only ten people died in the car accident? That's great, *much* better than four! How could they make such a mistake in the first place, making the crash sound a lot more serious than it was!

[MoUsE_WiZ]

Because... you know... that small difference makes it so much more better.
If players had to take their TP back from town it'd actually make it about a thousand times better. You'd have an incredibly large amount of time to respond to the action and the hostile player would be there ready for you to attempt to kill.

But thanks for trying.

[Frostraven]

Try again to correct those who bash the dev's quote for it's errors, when the quote actually shows that the devs MIGHT believe TPPK is much more fair to the PKee than it actually is -- as I was showing in my post? :scratchchin:

[MoUsE_WiZ]

Try again to correct those who bash the dev's quote for it's errors
I'm pretty sure that I bashed the other guy for agreeing with the dev's quotes despite its errors...

TPPK has nothing to do with hostility being removed. TPPK would be very trivial to fix, even in D2 with its current structure, nevermind in a new game where they could implement projectiles&hostility in any way they want.

The Jay Wilson quote implies that he thinks hostility currently works in a manner that it doesn't. The guy I quoted seems to believe hostility currently works in a manner that it doesn't. People who don't know how the game works shouldn't be commenting on how the game works.

Because... you know... that small difference makes it so much more better.
Four people were killed in a car accident. How awfu... what? Only ten people died in the car accident? That's great, *much* better than four!
And I'm pretty sure I corrected you because your example implies that the ability to instantly take a portal back after hostility would be a terrible thing for gameplay, just less terrible. Really it wouldn't be that bad at all... hell, it'd be even easier to avoid that than WP jumping, and nobody ever came even close to getting me by skipping the WP timer.

[jamesisbest]

Getting rid of pvp took away a game element for a few and added a positive game change to the majority. I think people are in large part overreacting, pking is essentially a form of griefing, doesn't make much sense for Blizzard to try to erradicate griefing and leave in the most popular form of griefing (pking). Pking is a form of entertainment that feeds off the frustration of others which is not conducive for multiplayer gameplay. I think pking may have also been done more frequently because the pvp in Diablo 2 isn't the most solid aspect of the game. With Blizzard intending to put a lot more focus on pvp and improving many aspects of pvp I'm sure a majority of people who pk'd will find enjoyment in fighting others in consentual pvp. For those who strive to put people down there will still be plenty of oppurtunities for boasting, criticizing, and insulting in pvp.

[classix]

jay wilson is a retard, who has zero idea who the hostile or tppk system worked.

its SO easy to patch tppk - they can even incorporate the anti tppk hack to stop it, but its the hostile system that shaped and moulded the hc community on europe, certainly the ladder, and above all, the pvps that happened from ladder slot fights.

although he has it wrong, im sure ppl have pointed out his obvious mistake to him in the office, and they are just too proud to say he got it wrong.

regardless, we play hardcore for a reason - we are better than softcore players, we can handle death - be it pk, duel or - yes - even tppk death from an idiot. but more importantly, its a tool used to control the ladder.

edit: even tho this was said a month or so ago, alot might of changed. they did initially say that hostile would remain in hardcore cus it had no point in softcore.

nonetheless, ofc they have learnt from wow that catering to the carebears is ++++++++ $$$$$$$$$'s so pvp will ofc be an after thought. i still hold hope that they will give us some kind of pvp mechanic on hardcore.

[come back zinc]

The button must stay; we all need the freedom to choose our allegiance.

The world's good exists only because of the world's evil.

[windforce]

I wish they wouldn't remove the hostile button from HC. PK is such a huge part of hardcore play, and without it the game just won't be all that fun. Jay Wilson clearly has not spent much time, if any, playing hardcore mode in d2, because then he would know that you can't just hostile a player and immediatly enter a tp and kill them without the use of HACKS. Clearly hacks make pk seem unfair, but when done legit pk is a perfectly legit and fun part of the game.

I know nobody likes being the hunted one. I don't like being hunted, but I know that it comes with the territory of being a hardcore player. Although I don't like someone trying to PK me, I know that I might want to pk someone some time, and if I want to do it, I have to face the same risk as everyone else.

What is hardcore diablo without pk? If they just HAVE to cater to the anti-PK crowd, they should maybe increase the time delay to attack someone after you hostile them or something like that... but getting rid of the hostile mode entirely? This really decreases the odds of me buying the game, as HC is my favorite mode to play, and without PK it would just be a carebear fest.

[Xandor]

Hotility in D2 HC was only fun for the pks. Which exploited the tp's timeout and such. I think HC is very fun worrying about the monsters only and how to play flawlessly.

[GuardianHadriel]

hardcore is official.....is´nt it?

[LaZeR]

I wish they wouldn't remove the hostile button from HC. PK is such a huge part of hardcore play, and without it the game just won't be all that fun. Jay Wilson clearly has not spent much time, if any, playing hardcore mode in d2, because then he would know that you can't just hostile a player and immediatly enter a tp and kill them without the use of HACKS. Clearly hacks make pk seem unfair, but when done legit pk is a perfectly legit and fun part of the game.

I know nobody likes being the hunted one. I don't like being hunted, but I know that it comes with the territory of being a hardcore player. Although I don't like someone trying to PK me, I know that I might want to pk someone some time, and if I want to do it, I have to face the same risk as everyone else.

What is hardcore diablo without pk? If they just HAVE to cater to the anti-PK crowd, they should maybe increase the time delay to attack someone after you hostile them or something like that... but getting rid of the hostile mode entirely? This really decreases the odds of me buying the game, as HC is my favorite mode to play, and without PK it would just be a carebear fest.

Is that an 8 months bump? =S

[Tai.]

hardcore is official.....is´nt it?

Yes, but our esteemed colleague above you resurrected the thread and thus its contents are out of context. The issues regarding the removal of the hostile button are still valid, though based upon D2 and has been stressed by basically everyone in this thread at one point or another the design team is basically building an entirely separate game rather than a Diablo sequel so any assumption we make based on our current game is apt to be faulty.

That said, if they for example remove the hostile button from D2 with the upcoming patch as a way to test the reaction I will probably retire immediately after my ladder reset team completes it run. Despite the fact that I play entirely within a safe community in my opinion D2 would not be the same without the hostile button. It is a tool to chase unwanted low levels out of your games, a way of testing your build against an unknown enemy and - in my opinion - a necessary feature of risk in a game marked by remarkably easy PvM.

Cheers
-Tai

[FreshMeat]

tppk is a bug that lazy blizzard never would fix because they f'ing dont respect you.

taking hostile out of the game is retarded. They could EASILY make it that as soon as hostile is turned on, all spells and ranged shots dissipate.

that would require blizzard respecting you as a player and consumer. They do not. If they did, patches would come out quarterly at the slowest pace possible.

Check out guildwars. 1/10th the revenue of blizzard at best, patched hourly. free servers.

[CombatShrine]

Yeah. Blizzard doesn't respect Diablo 2's players at all.

I'm probably not going to buy Diablo 3 unless ALL the bad problems in Diablo 2 are fixed and solved.

Getting rid of hostility was a big one. All of the arguments in favor of non-consenting hostility are basically crap like "I like to take the risk", or "people that don't like pk'ing shouldn't be playing the game" or some kind of e-weiner stroking like that.

The hostility button was a source of endless grief when I played Diablo 2. There was never any "fair" dueling. Its the same thing - a level 85 joins a game with the play location in its title, hostiles everyone, and goes to the waypoint. Softcore or hardcore makes no difference. I've played both. Its just a giant waste of time.

There needs to be a fully-featured arena system - being able to set number of players, rules for equipment use (e.g. no consumables etc.,), and being able to wager items on the winner or loser. If people want to duel and FFA, they can do it honorably and fairly (which, I suspect, is why there is so much whining generated on this thread. Wah wah wah I'll have to fight fairly wah wah wahhhhh ... puh-leaze :/).

I always thought loot-dueling in HC was a cool idea, but considering it operated on the honor system, it wasn't a very good fit for griefnet.

[Grug]

Simple solution? Just disable all PvP. When you make a game in multiplayer, you can check a box to enable PvP in your game, and that setting will be clearly visible in the game list. So if you feel like taking a risk, feel free to enable PvP in yours and go questing. The PvP flag will be a big target painted on your chest cavity.

The multiplayer is being limited to 4 players per game. It doesn't make sense to have one person join such a small game to mess it up.

[windforce]

arguments in favor of non-consenting hostility are basically crap like "I like to take the risk", or "people that don't like pk'ing shouldn't be playing the game" or some kind of e-weiner stroking like that.


I just had to comment on this because I think that's BS. The hostile button is an intrinsic part of the diablo universe. Nobody likes getting pk'd, but if you can't handle it then don't play HC. I know that you might not like hearing that, but it's the truth. Nobody likes it when their character dies... be it to other players or monsters. So should they remove monsters from the game too? After all, you could say that blizzard griefs their players when they make them face hard monsters. Whether one wants to keep PK because they like the risk, or like to PKK, or just like to collect ears, they shouldn't have to defend themselves. It's a feature of the game that makes diablo what it is, and what separates it from modern day carebear fests such as WoW. Those of us who have played for a long time know why PK should stay, and it's gotten to the point where I don't think that the D3 development team spent much time playing the game. Some of the things I have read that came out of their mouths make it pretty obviouse that they are not really big fans of the diablo franchise, and have spent far more time playing WoW.

[CombatShrine]

I just had to comment on this because I think that's BS. The hostile button is an intrinsic part of the diablo universe. Nobody likes getting pk'd, but if you can't handle it then don't play HC. I know that you might not like hearing that, but it's the truth. Nobody likes it when their character dies... be it to other players or monsters. So should they remove monsters from the game too? After all, you could say that blizzard griefs their players when they make them face hard monsters. Whether one wants to keep PK because they like the risk, or like to PKK, or just like to collect ears, they shouldn't have to defend themselves. It's a feature of the game that makes diablo what it is, and what separates it from modern day carebear fests such as WoW. Those of us who have played for a long time know why PK should stay, and it's gotten to the point where I don't think that the D3 development team spent much time playing the game. Some of the things I have read that came out of their mouths make it pretty obviouse that they are not really big fans of the diablo franchise, and have spent far more time playing WoW.

The hostile button might have been there since Diablo 1, but it was a pain there too.
Being able to arbitrarily hostile anyone you want, regardless of their consent, only encourages people to bully and prey on the weak, with little to no risk to themselves. That doesn't seem very consistent - after all, hard core is supposed to be about risk, right?

I have played Diablo since Diablo 1 came out, and Diablo 2 since the 1.04 patch came out. I can honestly say, in my opinion, PK'ing doesn't add anything positive to this game, especially on hardcore. I have been pk'ed twice on hardcore, never legitimately. The first was the hydra bug, and the second was a burizon tppk. I pretty much gave up on cooperative play with regular bnetters when that happened.

People only like to go hostile on bnet when they know they can win. Its that simple.

I don't even play WoW. I know about some of the stuff in it, but I have never really played it.

[Arkansaw]

If removing hostility turns out to be the best, if not the only solution they have against tppk, I guess this is something pple will have to live with

[windforce]

If removing hostility turns out to be the best, if not the only solution they have against tppk, I guess this is something pple will have to live with

they removed the legit form of tppk from d2 with a simple line of coding. And as for the tppk hacks, they too can be avoided, especially since blizzard knows in advance that people would try to make such mods. And I may be wrong, but aren't town portals not in d3? I thought I read that somewhere.

[CombatShrine]

they removed the legit form of tppk from d2 with a simple line of coding. And as for the tppk hacks, they too can be avoided, especially since blizzard knows in advance that people would try to make such mods. And I may be wrong, but aren't town portals not in d3? I thought I read that somewhere.

I have read this as well, but really, Blizzard has lost credibility on exactly what will be new in the game.

They said "all new character classes", and one of the big preview videos was a "Wizard" chick running around shooting elemental magic at bad guys and teleporting :/

They might just call them "Wormholes."

[LucianDK]

Bodes well for the game that they removed noncon PvP, it was an absolute mistake to have it in D2 and im glad to see it gone. I dont want to have my time wasted by asshats, I want to play and cooperate with other people to enjoy the game.

[Jinchuu]

Too many carebears posting in this thread. Pking is fun, if you don't like it make private games to hide in and farm to your hearts content while those of us with a set of balls go out and have fun killing each other.

[LucianDK]

Diablo2 was never a PvP Game at heart. Age of Conan or Ultima Online might be more suited for your kind. And the devs are reaffirming Diablo3 as a PvE focused game.

[Jinchuu]

If all you want to do is farm go play Harvest Moon.

[windforce]

Diablo2 was never a PvP Game at heart. Age of Conan or Ultima Online might be more suited for your kind. And the devs are reaffirming Diablo3 as a PvE focused game.

No offense to you, but I think that comments like this pretty much sum up where diablo 3 has lost its way. The developers are thinking much like you, ignoring the fact that D2 was just as much about pvp as pvm. By allowing anyone to go hostile in a regular game, it meshed pvp and pve into the same game. The mere fact that there was no separate pvp system, while at the same time allowing unconsentual hostility, proves that diablo2 was never intended to be purely a pve game. It was an unlawful world of chaos and deception, and this was brought out to its fullest in HC. I believe this is what made the game so strong, and it's what separates diablo from conventional, mainstream games like WoW and GW's. The blurred line between pve and pvp is a characteristic intrinsic to diablo. By removing it, they are changing what diablo is, just because they want it to be a more conventional game like WoW.

[LucianDK]

Well they acknowledged there was far too many problems with nonconsensual pvp, and hence why they changed it. I am glad they did.

But an alternative could be to simply flag games as pvp games for the crowd into it, so pvers can play in peace without getting bothered.

[MrBill]

Too many carebears posting in this thread. Pking is fun, if you don't like it make private games to hide in and farm to your hearts content while those of us with a set of balls go out and have fun killing each other.

So I'm a "carebear" because I don't like griefer jerks, using cheats and hacks (like TPPK) to ruin public Diablo games, by insta-killing the 99.9999999999999999999999% of honest, legitimate Battle.Net players who just want to co-operatively quest together, in PvM mode? Conventional PK'ing [e.g. "non-consensual hostility, while playing within the guidelines that Blizzard intended when it (foolishly) enabled this game 'feature'] was bad enough; but since the onset of TPPK, public Hardcore games on Battle.Net have become a total waste of time.

I loved your disingenuous little comment about "...have fun killing each other...". Of course, that's not at all what griefers do, which is to victimize people who can't kill them, either because "your Level 10 Paladin can't kill my Level 95 Sorceress, u r a n00b boi", or because your Level 95 Sorceress treacherously TPPKed somebody 80+ levels lower, then used your cheat / hack to zip safely back to the Rogue Encampment (or Harrogath).

And (on the optimistic assumption that they're serious about what they say), bravo for Blizzard for finally coming to their senses about PvP in D3. I'll believe it when I see it, but the D2 situation currently is so wildly dysfunctional that if they don't want D3 to turn off 9 out of every 10 players who try it, then they had better not repeat the mistakes of the past.

So fine, then, count me as a "carebear", mate. Maybe one day you'll grow up and learn that bullying isn't an acceptable way of behaving, either electronically or in real life.

Mr. Bill

[windforce]

MrBill, you call it bullying and grieving, but I call it part of the game. You only define it as bullying because it's an aspect of the game that doesn't appeal to you. The d2 developers put PK in the game because that's what diablo2 HC is all about... not only surviving against the monsters, but other villains as well. The way it was set up in D2 is perfectly fair actually. There are level restrictions and private games, as well as time delays that make it pretty hard to get PK'd unless you allow it to happen to yourself. I'm talking about legit PK of course.

Jinchuu clearly needs an attitude adjustment, but he is right about the carebears. The online version of diablo is very different from the single player, or PvE version. Battle.net is an enmeshment of PvE and PvP to the point where there is no separation between the two. Both are a possibility at any given time, just like in online first person shooters. Diablo is partially defined by this blurry line between pvp and pve, as I explained before. To change this is to change the entire tone of the game.

D2 HC was designed specifically with unconcentual hostility in mind. Many of the people who played HC simply did not have the patience or skill to be playing it, yet complained that PK was unfair just because they could not deal with this added risk. I say they should be ignored.

[LucianDK]

Well the developers is always right, it is their game and they have a better view on things than the fans does.

[MrBill]

:rant:

No, false, wrong.

I should say at the outset, that you tried to use the disclaimer, "of course, I'm just talking about 'legit' PK".

Sorry, you can't use that as an escape clause, when 99% of the griefers on Battle.Net use nothing but cheats, hacks and exploits, to victimize other players. It's like saying, "I don't think there should be gun control, because of course I'm only defending criminals who play fair and only attack you with a knife", when 99% of them use a .44 to do the talking.

Let me deconstruct these arguments:

MrBill, you call it bullying and grieving, but I call it part of the game. You only define it as bullying because it's an aspect of the game that doesn't appeal to you.

You're right that this part of Diablo doesn't appeal to me, but you're wrong about this being merely a matter of opinion.

First of all, "bullying" and "griefing" are not subjective concepts. When a 15 year old boy, with no provocation whatsoever, punches a 6 year old child in the head and then leaves him or her crying on the ground, most sane people don't need to go to a Webster's dictionary to understand that this act is "bullying".

Two things define "bullying" : one, a gross disparity in the fighting ability of the bully versus that of the victim, and (crucially), two, the intent to victimize, hurt, humiliate and cause suffering, to the victim. Add cowardice (on the part of the bully, by only picking on people who can't fight back on even terms), a sneak attack designed to prevent the victim from even knowing that it's time to defend himself, and you have the full picture.

Most or all of these factors are trivially obvious in the case of most PKing that occurs on Battle.Net; to try to argue that a Level 80+ Sorceress who shows up in a co-operative game of Level 12 characters and hostiles the group, is somehow anything other than "bullying", is ludicrous, because there is no effective risk to the PK'er. (Of course, all TPPKers are by definition cowards, since there is no risk whatsoever to them, in attacking another Battle.Net character without warning or the ability to fight back.)

This distinction is very important, because in a legitimate duel between characters of similar Levels, or in the less attractive (but still legit) case of (say) a Level 16 character who shows up and hostiles the group of Level 12s, while this is still a rude and obnoxious thing to do (because you're screwing up a bunch of people who have every right to want to just be left alone), there is still at least a theoretical chance that the PKer is himself going to get killed.

Unfortunately, from what I see on Battle.Net these days, PK attempts are about 80% TPPK, 15% where a Level 80 attacks a Level 12 or so, and about 5% anything that could reasonably be described as "legitimate" non-consensual hostility.

Trying to claim that it's "legitimate" for a Level 80 character (or a Level 50, loaded up with third party hacks and cheats) to hostile a Level 12, is just ridiculous. The more that you defend this kind of thing, the less convincing you will sound.

...The d2 developers put PK in the game because that's what diablo2 HC is all about... not only surviving against the monsters, but other villains as well. The way it was set up in D2 is perfectly fair actually. There are level restrictions and private games, as well as time delays that make it pretty hard to get PK'd unless you allow it to happen to yourself...

Numerous published interviews with Blizzard employees, as well as the announcements that I have recently seen on the Battle.Net "bulletin board" that scrolls by in the Chat room interface, make it crystal-clear that while Blizzard may have (here again, I believe, this was a foolish design error) envisaged that "non-consensual hostility" was a legitimate aspect of Realm play on Battle.Net, successive generations of cheaters, griefers and cyber-bullies have abused this concept way past the breaking point, in a manner that Blizzard clearly does not approve of.

It stretches credulity to advance the argument that Blizzard intentionally set up a situation where cheaters could repeatedly murder co-operative D2 players, in a way that ruins the play experience for the latter. It may have happened by accident, but I have no doubt that if they had it to do over with, they'd tighten this up a lot.

(Incidentally : A careful look at the retail boxes of both my original Diablo II and Lord of Destruction software, reveals that neither one of them says anything at all about "Player Versus Player"; the box art is exclusively about the great, co-op adventuring aspects of the game.

Don't you think that if Blizzard had wanted to emphasize their support of PK'ing and griefing, they wouldn't have added something prominent on the box, like, "Wonderful New Hostility System Where Someone Godly 80th Level Character Who You've Never Met, Can Kill Your Character Without Warning And Without A Chance To Fight Back?"

Think that one would have been a real sales-booster? Right.)

If there were not "private" games, D2 Hardcore play on Battle.Net would be completely impossible; as it is, it's merely so difficult as to be not worth the effort.

The problem with "private" games, of course, is simply finding people who you can trust to play with. To an extent you can do this in various channels referenced in the Hardcore thread, but what if a PK'er sneaks in, either on a "trusted" channel or just in a previously public game that they designed to turn private?

The larger question is, "why should someone not be able to join a public Hardcore game on Battle.net, without having to worry about somebody treacherously stabbing him in the back, with no advance warning?" Co-op play on Battle.Net is every bit as legitimate a play mode as is PvP or dueling. Why should PvP'ers be able to destroy a co-op game by showing up and hostiling people, while co-op players can't (say) show up to a PvP game and then throw some kind of "carebear" switch saying "hey, let's all just do peace and love, now"? Why is it okay for one type of player to ruin the other's game, but not the other way around?

If I say, "no smoking in my house", how dare you walk in the door and light up a cigarette? How is this any different from me setting up a game name like "FRIENDLY CO-OP GAME, NO HOSTILES", then having every PKer on Battle.Net obnoxiously show up just to spoil the session? Who gives you the right?

The second way in which this manifests itself, to directly address your point about the so-called "controls" that were built into the game, is the Level 9 restriction on hostiles. While this is obviously better than nothing at all, the problem is that it doesn't stop the "Level 80 vs. Level 12" situation, so it has no effect on (sic.) "legit" PK'ing (cyber-bullying) carried out conventionally as opposed to TPPK. If Blizzard had set some kind of sensible limit on it, say 10 levels higher or lower, perhaps that would have helped... but I doubt it.

The third way in which even "legit" PK'ing just lends itself to cyber-bullies, is (as some of the earlier commentators in this thread have pointed out), a purpose-built PvP character -- which doesn't have to worry about making its way, possibly solo, all the way through all 3 difficulty levels of the game -- can easily one- or two-shot almost any PvM character, even if the two are of similar Level.

This completely unfair situation is made far worse by the hacks and cheats that even low-level PvP'ers have recourse to, everything from Maphack cheats that allow the PK'er to see another player's item inventory and then to instantly locate his victim anywhere in all 5 Acts, to FarCast, to ChickenHack, to... {name of your favorite cheat here, there's a new one every week}.

Add to this endlessly duplicated dueling gear like perfect Bloodfists, ethereal Steeldrivers and so on, half of them purchased off eBay courtesy of Daddy's credit card, and you have a grossly unfair real-life fight between PK'er and target, even if theoretically they're close to each other in Level.

There are a very few Pkers (some of whom inhabit the Hardcore forum) who apparently fight only with legitimate equipment and tactics, but in my experience, 90% of the PKers who hostile you (if you're not already dead from TPPK), again are decked out so that they almost certainly can't lose.

You have to be willfully blind to ignore these facts, and then to defend the griefers who constantly employ these tricks to wreck everyone else's D2 experience.

...Many of the people who played HC simply did not have the patience or skill to be playing it, yet complained that PK was unfair just because they could not deal with this added risk. I say they should be ignored.

How is someone supposed to have the "patience or skill" to defend themselves against cheats like TPPK? These cheats are, by definition and by deliberate design, intended to completely negate any and all tactics that another D2 character could use, to give him / herself, the slightest chance of survival.

Besides, why do I have to have "patience" with some jerk who shows up in my game, whose name is marked "FRIENDLY, CO-OP, NO HOSTILE", then hostiles everybody, just to spoil my co-op session? I don't have to be "patient" with a nut case who stands up in church and starts shouting, "Hail Satan", I don't have to be "patient" with some insensitive boor who smokes in my no-smoking house, I don't have to be "patient" with a maladjusted school bully who punches my child in the back of the head, and I don't have to be "patient" with griefers on Battle.Net who try to deny me the co-op play value of the game that I paid good money for, and which (as I noted earlier) says nothing at all on its cover about this kind of obnoxious behavior being tolerated.

They're the bad guys, not me. I have nothing to apologize for. They have lots. End of story.

Mr. Bill

[Jinchuu]

Explain to me why you instantly assume everyone who mentions pvp is using TPPK or some other hack or that they're only out griefing lowbies? I have 3 accounts full of characters of all levels for pking with (from 9-92) so I don't have to listen to some pansy crying about how i was higher level after I kill them.
Your arguments are ridiculous since you're comparing apples to watermelons. You keep harping on this "no smoking in my house" tip, your house is your own property, the game you create on a server owned by Blizzard (which means it's not your property by any stretch) is open to whoever since it's on a public domain. Sinc eyou apparently don't want to make a private game you're going to have to deal with people entering a public game and excercising their free will.
I've played this game for ~3 years and have never been the victim of a TPPK and have only had four instances of high level people coming in and pking me when I was on a low level character, so imo you're are grossly overexxagerating circumstances in order to try to add some support to your feeble argument.
Like I said if you don't like pvp go play a game that doesn't have any, Fate sounds like it would be more your speed. I hope Blizzard doesn't cave in to the carebears and end up shooting themselves in the foot by driving all the people with some nuts away.

[Nimbostratus]

One other thing about the "D2 was just as much about pvp as pvm." line: Why are there skills that have no possible effect whatsoever against another player? If they intended PKing to be such an integral part of the game, surely they would've had everything have some kind of effect.


Also: Ever think that non-consensual PKing could have just been viewed as a solution to somebody just being a jerk (hogging drops, hitting evil urns, etc.) in your game?

[Ghoulz]

Doesn't bug me, in fact, I like the it. Im sick of @#$%ers ruining games that were going well. Then being bothered by someone who you don't even want to duel, or can't.

It's absolute BS if you have to make a private game. You might as well play offline.

[LucianDK]

Glad to see that there is more moderate people understanding that it is just bullying which is plaguing diablo2. It was NEVER billed as a hardcore pvp game. You will have to go otherwere to get your fix, like Darkfall Online.

[Jinchuu]

"One other thing about the "D2 was just as much about pvp as pvm." line: Why are there skills that have no possible effect whatsoever against another player? If they intended PKing to be such an integral part of the game, surely they would've had everything have some kind of effect."

Wvery game that has a mixture of pvp and pvm has those spells, they're normally of the crowd control variety to keep you from getting swarmed by mobs. Come up with a better point next time you want to support your carebear ways

"Glad to see that there is more moderate people understanding that it is just bullying which is plaguing diablo2. It was NEVER billed as a hardcore pvp game. You will have to go otherwere to get your fix, like Darkfall Online."

So because you don't like pvp you think the game should be turned into Farmfest 2kX that's somce great logic right there. I'm going to employ some of your flawed logic for my own benefit, I don't like the way you post, you will have to go otherwere to get your fix, like the Farmers Union forums.

[red_beard_neo]

Anyone else feel like they're reading a thread straight out of 2003?

None of these arguments on either side are anything new. Blizzard obviously wasn't going to make everyone happy no matter what they did with PvP, so like any company looking to make money they appealed to the largest majority. If this change weeds out a small subset of players that can't *imagine* the Diablo series without nonconsensual PvP, after all these years I can't say I'm sorry to see them go.

[MrBill]

Explain to me why you instantly assume everyone who mentions pvp is using TPPK or some other hack or that they're only out griefing lowbies?<snip>

Because 90% of the PKers are using TPPK, that's why. I have yet to see anyone ever killed by anything but TPPK, past a normal mode Baal game (and even there almost all the PK's are via TPPK, sometimes augmented by FarCast and MapHack).

Once in a while, when sanity escapes me and I join a normal mode questing game past Level 9, I do run into cheese-eating Level 18 Paladin Chargers who will try a "legit" PK, and then, for more fun still, there's always the Level 18 GA Amazon who's been secretly pre-Chanted (ChantBot, another cheat) with 3,500 points of Fire damage added on to each shot. But these latter forms of griefers are increasingly an endangered species on Battle.Net, because TPPK is simply "so much more 1337, d00dz".

However you play the game personally -- I have no way of knowing if you're doing your griefing "legitimately" or otherwise -- you obviously don't want to face the fact, which co-operative Battle.Net players know only too well, that virtually every one of the Hardcore PK deaths they have suffered, has been the result of illegal cheats and hacks like TPPK.

If you think about it, all this only makes sense. Since the main motive of a shallow, childish, selfish little griefer is to hurt other people as safely and effortlessly as possible, why would he ("he" is almost always a young male, BTW... just check out any of the TPPK videos on YouTube) do anything the "legit" way, when a great software tool like TPPK is there to get him a big ol' whack o' ears, the easy way? Why try, when you can be a prick without doing anything but hitting a hotkey?

That's life on Battle.Net these days, whether or not you want to acknowledge it.

(Incidentally: The last PK death that I ever had, and this was about 2 years ago, was of my Level 85 Enchantress who foolishly walked down the stairs from the Blood Moor into the Den of Evil, to "help" a Level 70 Druid who wanted to "get his first Hell quest". After using TPPK, he later bragged that each Tornado did about 7,500 points of physical damage and that he had 200% Faster Cast Rate. (This guy had a Grizzly and a bunch of summons, incidentally, so he must have put a few points into that tree.) Apart from the TPPK cheat, please tell me how he "legitimately" got the gear to do that. Since that time, I have had the substantial fun that I used to have playing high level, Hardcore, co-operative D2, completely ruined by the need to avoid ever having something like that happen again. How dare you defend the pricks who steal this play value away from me.)

<snip>Your arguments are ridiculous since you're comparing apples to watermelons. You keep harping on this "no smoking in my house" tip, your house is your own property, the game you create on a server owned by Blizzard (which means it's not your property by any stretch) is open to whoever since it's on a public domain.<snip>

Did you even bother to read the comments I wrote about the artwork on the Diablo II and Lord of Destruction retail boxes, a few postings ago? I'll save you the trouble of hitting the back arrow key. Here goes :

<snip>(Incidentally : A careful look at the retail boxes of both my original Diablo II and Lord of Destruction software, reveals that neither one of them says anything at all about "Player Versus Player"; the box art is exclusively about the great, co-op adventuring aspects of the game.

Don't you think that if Blizzard had wanted to emphasize their support of PK'ing and griefing, they wouldn't have added something prominent on the box, like, "Wonderful New Hostility System Where Someone Godly 80th Level Character Who You've Never Met, Can Kill Your Character Without Warning And Without A Chance To Fight Back?"

Think that one would have been a real sales-booster? Right.)<snip>

The truth is, in view of the above (where I prove beyond a reasonable doubt that PK'ing, to the extent that Blizzard ever imagined that it would be abused like it is now, was certainly not the aspect of the game that its manufacturer chose to emphasize, from a marketing perspective), when I create a Battle.Net game clearly marked as "CO-OP, NO HOSTILE GAME, PLEASE DON'T JOIN IF YOU INTEND TO HOSTILE PEOPLE, WE DON'T WANT TO DO PVP, WE JUST WANT TO QUEST, IF YOU WANT TO PVP PLEASE CREATE A GAME CALLED 'PK ALLOWED HERE'", and you deliberately ignore all these explicitly stated requests and decide to come in and hostile / TPPK the characters who all have agreed to the game instantiation terms, what you're doing is simply childish griefing... not anything that any sane manufacturer would knowingly encourage.

You are hiding behind Blizzard's (stupid) unwillingness to spend a few hours of programming time to put a "no hostile" flag on Battle.Net D2 sessions, as a sham excuse for engaging in selfish, obnoxious behavior, intended to do nothing other than ruin the play experience for a bunch of D2 players who haven't done anything to antagonize you.

Irrespective of the issue of whether the game technically prevents you from getting away with this kind of thing, the ethics of the situation are plain to see.

Tell me... how many house parties, where you're uninvited and unwelcome, do you crash, then threaten to kill people at?

Ahh... "it's only a game, I guess"... right?

Mr. Bill

[windforce]

MrBill,

I don't feel like tirelessly picking through your incredibly long response... but I will comment on your "bullying" argument which makes no sense if you ask me.

According to your logic, any player that kills a weaker player without the weaker player's consent is a bully. So any player that kills another less skilled player against their will in any game, be it diablo or any other video game is automatically a bully according to you.

Here's what's wrong with your claim:
the "bully" victim, in this case, chose to play a game in which PK is a legal, intended part of the game. It's like a scrawny football player crying that he is being bullied because he chose to play with other football players who are bigger and stronger than he is and keep tackling him. When you create a HC character, you KNOW that you are throwing yourself into a world where you are playing against other people, not just monsters. And yes, when I talk about PK, I'm talking about legit PK. What's the point in arguing about tppk hacks... who the hell is defending that? Not me. Also, one of the defining features of "bullying" is the violation of another human being's rights. There is no violation of rights when it comes to PK. You are playing a video game which you can stop playing at any given time. Or you can play in private games or use the level restrict option. You have 100% control over the situation, and yet you play on public servers, where pk is a part of the game, by choice.

And another thing...you keep saying that PK's are griefers who grief in a legit manner. Well it's not only legit.. it's an intended part of the game. Lot's of people don't know how to use the level restrict option, and people who play hc then complain that PK is unfair despite the fact that they know this is one of the intended challenges of HC, should not be playing hc on public servers in the first place. These are the same people (you) who, despite getting into something you can't handle, continue to use the argument that PK's are griefers that don't belong. In ANY game where there is competition, there will be stronger and weaker players. By your logic the stronger players should never try to compete with the weaker ones, even when they are all playing the SAME game.

When it comes to TPPK, you keep using the argument that just because most modern-day PK is accomplished through hacks and cheats, this is an excuse to eliminate all legit PK in future diablo games. So basically you are saying that instead of preventing these hacks, the developers should penalize all the legit PK's for the crimes of the cheaters. What they actually need to do is make sure they don't make it possible for these hacks to arise in the first place. You know getting rid of items would solve the duping problem, maybe they should consider this too right!


And I don't know if it was you or someone else who said that on the box of d2, it said nothing about there being pvp... WHY SHOULD IT??? Since when is D2 a pvm-only game, and when was it ever implied by Blizzard that it was a PvM only game. And even IF Blizzard had some sort of obligation to place a disclamer about pvp on the box (which they do not), when you started playing on Bnet you SAW that there is pvp built in to it. And by the way it does say on the package "Compete free over the internet" (I'm looking at my diablo 2 cd case as I type this, those are the exact words printed in the upper-right-hand corner). "COMPETE free"... so really, it does not only hint that d2 is not limited to pvm, but it's a COMPETITIVE game. Frankly this argument that just because there is no pvp warning on the box, that pk should not exist, is so completely utterly ridiculous that I think my blood pressure rose when I read it.

[Jinchuu]

I don't want to read your life story, keep your posts more concise and to the point Mr. Bill.

You're still stuck with the mentality of just because you think something should be a certain way then it should be that way, most of us grow out of that when we're around 4 or 5 years old. Why even try to have a discussion with someone if you're not going to consider their perspective, being closedminded went out of style decades ago.
I'm not hiding behind anything, I'm exercising my right to engage in pvp. I don't know how many times I have to explain this to people but here we go again, IF YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE COMING INTO YOUR GAME AND PKING YOU MAKE A PRIVATE GAME. Is it really that difficult for you to press tab once and make a password for your game?

"Tell me... how many house parties, where you're uninvited and unwelcome, do you crash, then threaten to kill people at?"

Yet again you make a poor analogy by comparing rl to a videogame, especially since the comparison is apples to watermelons.

You should take some of this pentup carebear frustration out on those big bad pkers that kill you every time you set foot outside of town, oh wait you even admitted you haven't been pked in 2 years. So which is it, rampant pking or no pkingat all? Or do you just spout ludicrous claims in feeble attempts to support a perspective that is about as strong as wet toilet paper?

[CombatShrine]

Why play online if you have to make a private game just to avoid the hackers and asshole pk's?

You both should read MrBill's post. He did a good job. It pretty much nails everything on the head as to why griefing (at least, as far as PK'ing) had to go.

[Jinchuu]

No it shows me that you guys are a prime example of why I hate society. The majority of people I run into in my day to day activities are pansies due to society removing a beautiful thing called survival of the fittest. Everyone is so used to being coddled and never having to defend themselves due to all these laws and rules protecting them that they back down from any type of altercation, even one in a pixelated world. Man up and either fight back or make a private game, the option is there, if you're too stupid too do it you deserve to be pked over and over again. Why should my gameplay be ruined by someone who's so incompetent they can't even hit one button then press a few keys to protect themselves?

[MrBill]

I don't want to read your life story, keep your posts more concise and to the point Mr. Bill.<snip>...Or do you just spout ludicrous claims in feeble attempts to support a perspective that is about as strong as wet toilet paper?

You're entitled to your opinions, of course, but I don't believe that you're in a position to force me to write my posts in this Forum in one way or another.

As to the tensile strength of my perspective on this matter, well, I bet you think you've pretty much wiped up the mess that I left behind, wouldn't you say? I guess it must all have been a tissue of lies, so I guess I'll butt out, at this point. :whistling:

Have a nice day

Mr. Bill

[Nimbostratus]

Quite a few problems with your arguments, windforce and Jinchuu.
(Note: paraphrasing some stuff to get the points across without being wordy)

1. Just because something was intended does not mean it was good. Selling SOJs to spawn Uber Diablo. Ridiculously overpowered unique charms and runeword items. Low level skills that serve no purpose beyond level 10. Randomly spawned monsters having the potential for strength far exceeding the Prime Evils'. Tell me, are any of those things something you'd LIKE to keep around?

2. "It isn't bullying because PKing is allowed in the game, like competition is part of football." Problem. Football is presented only as competition between teams of players. Diablo is presented almost entirely as a PVM game, with PVP usually presented as consensual dueling or a means of dealing with uncooperative players. Assume you were in a paintball competition where the goal is to hit a target accurately. Would you consider it acceptable for your opponent to start firing at you simply because the rules don't explicitly forbid it?

3. "You should grow up and stop expecting everyone to play the way you do." Note that you're calling people immature for not wanting to play with those who specifically attack them for the purpose of deriving fun from seeing them enraged or upset.

4. "If it bothers you so much, play in a private game." People sign up to play online in hopes of playing with a huge variety of other players. They don't sign up to play with just a handful of close friends, nor do they sign up to play what is essentially single player with lag.


EDIT: Holy crap, what? Survival of the fittest? It's a freaking game. Why do you feel such an incredible need to somehow "prove yourself" by fighting those with no desire to do so?

[Vitamins]

There was some form of a hostility option in both Diablo games and the developers chose not to remove this option from either Diablo or Diablo 2 using patches. The forementioned either means that the developers fully intended for there to be PKing in the Diablo series, or that they were incompetent.

[Sass]

Wow. So many logical fallacies. It's hard to take some seriously.



The people who are apparently "pro pk" don't seem to know how to structure a good rebuttal.


I've yet to see a legitimate reason why 90+ vs 10 ish is a legit, consensual pvp.

And the part about "both agreeing to attack eachother is not real pvp imo"...what's with that?

[CombatShrine]

No it shows me that you guys are a prime example of why I hate society. The majority of people I run into in my day to day activities are pansies due to society removing a beautiful thing called survival of the fittest. Everyone is so used to being coddled and never having to defend themselves due to all these laws and rules protecting them that they back down from any type of altercation, even one in a pixelated world. Man up and either fight back or make a private game, the option is there, if you're too stupid too do it you deserve to be pked over and over again. Why should my gameplay be ruined by someone who's so incompetent they can't even hit one button then press a few keys to protect themselves?

...lol

You just sound like an angry raving lunatic in this post. What is your deal man? You come off as just an enraged troublemaker, that likes to pick on the weak ("pansies" as you call them). (Un?)fortunately, the police and other law-enforcement apparatus have forced you to come to grips with your impotence in forcing your will on others, so you do it behind a computer screen so you don't have to cross the thin blue line.

People talk smack to me all the time in real life, and I just let it slide. Not because I don't want to beat their face, but because I don't want to go to jail over it. If that makes me a pansy in your book, oh well. I'd rather be a pansy with freedom and a future than a tough guy behind bars being told when and where I can eat, sleep, and ****.

Perhaps you should consider joining the Marine Corps. You would fit like a glove in there.

[Vitamins]

...lol

You just sound like an angry raving lunatic in this post. What is your deal man? You come off as just an enraged troublemaker, that likes to pick on the weak ("pansies" as you call them). (Un?)fortunately, the police and other law-enforcement apparatus have forced you to come to grips with your impotence in forcing your will on others, so you do it behind a computer screen so you don't have to cross the thin blue line.

People talk smack to me all the time in real life, and I just let it slide. Not because I don't want to beat their face, but because I don't want to go to jail over it. If that makes me a pansy in your book, oh well. I'd rather be a pansy with freedom and a future than a tough guy behind bars being told when and where I can eat, sleep, and ****.

Perhaps you should consider joining the Marine Corps. You would fit like a glove in there.

I understand Jinchuu's frustration. If you compare older video games with newer ones you'll quickly realize that game developers have been increasingly simplifying their games and also decreasing their difficulty. In regards to the Diablo series, we have went from being able to hostile another player right next to us, to being able to hostile other people when we are in town, to not being able to hostile other players at all. Some people call that progression, but I call it regression, simplifcation, and pandering. I think Blizzard's decision to remove nonconsensual PVP from Diablo has effectively castrated it.

Further, in light of the current trend of video games, I am surprised Blizzard has decided to include a Hardcore mode in Diablo 3. With PKing out of the picture, Hardcore mode will be the only reason why I will try out Diablo 3 when it is released.

[LucianDK]

Pure or primarilly pvp based games have always been fairly in the minority. Plus Blizzard -does- focus on storytelling, which doesnt exactly match well with heavy pvp play. What you should hope for is arenas or tournament servers such as what they have in wow, where you can ignore the pve part completely and kit out a pvp character to the max.

I think the current Noobz comic hits the point of the discussion -quite- well. http://www.noobz-online.com/en/2009/06/03/64-i-live-in-the-shadows/

[Cevilo]

I gotta say I can see both sides of the argument. some of the most intense moments in Diablo 2 1.09 was when I was being "hunted" how ever it was by a character that was with in a reasonable level of mine or others in the game.

EX. a Bow Zon lvl 45ish (about to leave normal I'd assume) joined my game while one of my friends was tomb running us with his Leap attack barb lv.46. of course back in 09 as the vets remember, GA was HAX w/ piercing and this zon though she was pimptastic and hostiled us to go in for the kill. so I'm running towards the TP with my friend (hoping to distract her some so my friend can get a kill) and before the Zon knows what happens my friend Leap attacks to the end of the screen which happened to be where the Zon was standing as he landed and he KOed her and the Zon left.

another time I was leveling a smite pally I was 16 in a1 and they were 20 so I ran back to the WP (was hoping to get to town) but he made it in the to the wp b4 I could so I had no choice but to rape him against the wall with smite. sadly I had a crappy shield and couldn't deliver a killing blow but he took a TP and ran and we had a good laugh about it.

that's Legit pk and I love it. I don't really thing they should remove the whole PKing system but they should tweak it. level requirements, or PvP flagged games. or both, like how you can set level requirements on games you should be able to set Hostility requirements on a game, so people of all levels can enter but only people with in a 10 level range can hostile you.

as for the PvM/PvP builds I don't see the validation in that argument. sure there is more pvp specific gear, and some skills are useless (the entire paladin Defensive aura tree unless ur using them as synergies) but the builds pretty much work for both pvp and pve.

EX. Jav Zons are pvp builds and good for running chaos.
Light sorcs same thing
WW Barbs (now sort of useless compared to the rest of the mainstream builds)
Zealers (now only useful against melee combat sense the addition of Enigma = Rapesauce for all magic users)
Wind druids run both
Trap sins can do both
Summin Necs are good pve and if u have an enigma good in PvP
Bone necros are good sense the magic immune is rare in PvE and there is no Active item in pvp that effectively defends against it.
Hammerdins and smiters pvEVERYTHING

the only real "pvp" specific builds I can think of off the top of my head are chargers and FOH pallies

and the only real "PvE" only build I can think of are Singing barbs sense their singing is to low damage to be real effective in PvP

Over all the discussion and bickering between each side is pointless sense blizzard makes the decisions and the final rule is -no hostility, because it pisses more people off than it generates fun-

for all of the "blizzard is lazy they just need to write one line of code to fix TPPK"
"blizzard just needs to change the code and blah blah blah it's so easy blah blah blah"

you know if it's so damn easy make a game your self the way you like it and run it that way. trust me writing out the codes making them work flawlessly aren't that simple.

[Sass]

PvM builds are not designed to pvp...the same type of build can be used in both (blizz in pvp and pvm).

however, not the same character can be used in both. PvM blizzers cannot and will not win against a pvp blizzer (assuming both similar and the other isn't an imbecile OFC).



Yeah, the pvm builds =/= pvp builds does actually hold water.

[Jinchuu]

Windforce, Vitains, and Cevilo are the only people besides me who have actually presented decent posts so far, Sass you were making sense until you went off on some random tangents.

I'm struggling to understand why people still don't comprehend that they can make private games and never have to worry about being pked. Is that really such a hard concept to grasp? Instead those of us who actually like pvp and pking will be given the short end of the stick due to the deluge of tears rained down on the devs.

[LucianDK]

Windforce, Vitains, and Cevilo are the only people besides me who have actually presented decent posts so far, Sass you were making sense until you went off on some random tangents.

I'm struggling to understand why people still don't comprehend that they can make private games and never have to worry about being pked. Is that really such a hard concept to grasp? Instead those of us who actually like pvp and pking will be given the short end of the stick due to the deluge of tears rained down on the devs.

Perhaps because the majority of people is not meant to be hiding away from a little crowd of cyber bullies. You bought it on yourself with all your hacks and like making the game undesirable for people. Who knows, perhaps Blizzard might even remove the hostility button in D2 come patch 1.13. That would certainly bring a lot of people back.

[Nimbostratus]

I'm struggling to understand why people still don't comprehend that they can make private games and never have to worry about being pked. Is that really such a hard concept to grasp? Instead those of us who actually like pvp and pking will be given the short end of the stick due to the deluge of tears rained down on the devs.

As I'm struggling to understand why you can't comprehend that chasing people out of public games is against the concept of a multiplayer game. Those who actually like PVM/questing are given the short end of the stick any time some jackass comes in and decides he wants to chase them down.

When somebody starts a game, the title reflects what they want to do. They want to complete Act 1? "Act 1 help plz." They want to do Baal runs? "Run Baal 857." They want to PVP? "Dueling Now." Tell me, how many games have you seen with a name like "Hunt me down" or "Try to kill me"? Furthermore, why do you think people should have the right to force people into playing something they didn't want to play? (or force people to stop playing what they wanted to play, in the case of Save & Exit or private games)

[windforce]

(Note: paraphrasing some stuff to get the points across without being wordy)

1. Just because something was intended does not mean it was good. Selling SOJs to spawn Uber Diablo. Ridiculously overpowered unique charms and runeword items. Low level skills that serve no purpose beyond level 10. Randomly spawned monsters having the potential for strength far exceeding the Prime Evils'. Tell me, are any of those things something you'd LIKE to keep around?

True, just because something is intended does not mean it was a good feature. We know this already. All you are saying here is that PK is an intended feature of the game that is a bad feature which should not have existed in the first place. That is what we are debating in this thread!

The point of me mentioning that PK was intended is that many anti-pk people complain that it is not an intended feature, but rather an abuse of lenient rules. The debate is whether or not it's an unfair abuse of rules or not.


2. "It isn't bullying because PKing is allowed in the game, like competition is part of football." Problem. Football is presented only as competition between teams of players. Diablo is presented almost entirely as a PVM game, with PVP usually presented as consensual dueling or a means of dealing with uncooperative players. Assume you were in a paintball competition where the goal is to hit a target accurately. Would you consider it acceptable for your opponent to start firing at you simply because the rules don't explicitly forbid it?

1) Diablo is not presented as only a pvm game, unless you are playing single player. And even if it were presented only as a pvm game, that option still exists in single player and in private or customized games which are all available options. I’m tired of repeating this point. Online Diablo 2 (Hardcore especially) is a completely different game, in which PK is just as relevant as pvm. HC was specifically designed with that hostile system in mind. When you sign up for HC, you DO agree to the fact that you can be pk’d, just like when you sign up for football. However the game STILL gives you the option to avoid PK’s by playing in private games, playing with friends, using level restrictions, or simply avoiding the PKer in-game… which is incredibly easy to do thanks to the time delays when you hostile someone. But nooooo… you have to have pk removed for EVERYbody, so that you can be 100% sure that you are playing a purely pvm game even when you’re in public games. Sounds a little bit self-centered doesn’t it? That’s because carebears are self-centered.

2) It is ridiculous to say that consensual-only pvp is a “means of dealing with uncooperative players”. Just the opposite is true: UNconsensual hostility is the only way to drive annoying kids out of your game. The hostile system made it possible for players to manage themselves. That’s why I love Diablo games… they don’t baby the players like they do in most other games. Someone not contributing to the team? Hostile them. Simple, fun, dealt with. And if someone just wants to be a villain? They can do that, and that’s all part of what Diablo is all about.

3) Your paintball example makes no sense. If you are doing target shooting, why would it NOT be against the rules to shoot the people around you? It’s a completely irrelevant example. And yes, if something is not against the rules, that makes it fair. If you feel that someone is abusing the rules, you don’t play with them. But the claim that PK is an abuse of rules is, again, what is being debated here. So you have not made any new argument.

3. "You should grow up and stop expecting everyone to play the way you do." Note that you're calling people immature for not wanting to play with those who specifically attack them for the purpose of deriving fun from seeing them enraged or upset.

You are assuming that a PKer is automatically immature or something, and you are assuming that all people pk just to be assholes. Frankly, whether or not you are right about that doesn't matter because their reasons for wanting to PK are irrelevant. The hostile system is what makes Diablo2 unique from other games. By asking it to change, because YOU don’t like the system, completely ignoring all the people who do enjoy the hostile system for a huge variety of reasons, you are actually showing how immature you are.

And it is incredibly ridiculous to base the rules of a game on “maturity”. I could say that a person who whines and complains about the hostile system even though they signed up for it is equally as immature as the PKer. I can go even further and say that all Diablo players are immature because what is mature about spending hours playing a video game and caring what goes on in a video game community? What is mature about spending countless hours making your fantasy character just right? I’m sorry but it’s true: people who complain about a system just because it doesn’t suit their playing styles are immature if they believe that maturity exists in these games. You want maturity, play with people who fit your definition of what “mature” means.

4. "If it bothers you so much, play in a private game." People sign up to play online in hopes of playing with a huge variety of other players. They don't sign up to play with just a handful of close friends, nor do they sign up to play what is essentially single player with lag.

Once again you are making the fundamental error that you are signing up for a purely pvm game, and that you, as a player, somehow have this right to never be pk’d. You have every right to be PK'd, just like you have the right to PK others. Just because you chose not to PK others does not mean that nobody should be allowed to PK you.

And Just because PK exists that does not mean you can’t play with a huge variety of players. The only Diablo game that is purely pvm exists in single player. When you sign up for battle.net, you are entering a different game… one that has un concensual hostility which was always intended to be a very significant part of the game. Diablo is a violent game and the ability to PK other players is a DEFINING FEATURE of the franchise. It’s not just something on the side which has been abused by griefers, as you like to think (unless you include the hacks, which you can say about pretty much any aspect of the game, not just PK). When it comes right down to it, you are asking to remove the PK feature for the sole reason that you want all players to be forced to lose the hostile button just because you don’t want pvp to be a necessary part of public games. And that’s what makes the carebears so self-centered and ignorant to what makes Diablo games unique.

EDIT: Holy crap, what? Survival of the fittest? It's a freaking game. Why do you feel such an incredible need to somehow "prove yourself" by fighting those with no desire to do so?

All competitive games are about the survival of the fittest. If someone wants to squash a weaker player, the chaotic world of Diablo does not stop them. Once again, that’s what makes this franchise so unique and hardcore.

[windforce]

Wow. So many logical fallacies. It's hard to take some seriously.



The people who are apparently "pro pk" don't seem to know how to structure a good rebuttal.


I've yet to see a legitimate reason why 90+ vs 10 ish is a legit, consensual pvp.

And the part about "both agreeing to attack eachother is not real pvp imo"...what's with that?

You see that little checkbox that says "level restrict"? Use it. Your problem is solved.

[Jinchuu]

"You bought it on yourself with all your hacks and like making the game undesirable for people."

I don't know how many times I have to state that I have never nor do I intend to use hacks. Every game I play I play for a challenge, hacking removes this challnge and owuld not be fun for me. I'd also like to know why I've never run into this multitude of hackers that you guys keep claiming are rampant in D2.

[Nimbostratus]

1. Please, tell me how not wanting to be PKed is more self-centered than a PKer going into a game and ruining it for everyone else.

2. "It is ridiculous to say that consensual-only pvp is a “means of dealing with uncooperative players”" You misread my post. It was meant as "[consensual dueling] or [a means of dealing with uncooperative players]." However, from my experience, I rarely saw anyone using hostility as a means of making somebody cooperate. Not saying it didn't happen, I just never saw it that much.

3. You keep mentioning that PKing is such a defining feature of the game. PKing in softcore games is practically nonexistant, and you have given zero proof that Hardcore is the "real" game.

4. PKing makes a game inaccessible. To suitably deal with a well-built PVP character (which a PKer likely IS), one needs some pretty good equipment. It's rather difficult to build up said equipment if somebody tries to PK you every other time you join a game.

[Jinchuu]

waah waah waah, go back to pokemon.

[Cevilo]

PvM builds are not designed to pvp...the same type of build can be used in both (blizz in pvp and pvm).

however, not the same character can be used in both. PvM blizzers cannot and will not win against a pvp blizzer (assuming both similar and the other isn't an imbecile OFC).



Yeah, the pvm builds =/= pvp builds does actually hold water.


when I first read you're post I was like "wtf yes it dose"... then I remember.
PvM = Actually playing threw the game.. not "rush rush baal baal rush rush baal baal rush rush baal baal baal" so In light of Legit PvM Players I agree that the builds wont match a rushed character of the same level in stats but they still have a chance if they are more skilled at using the build, faster reactions to being attacked and avoiding attacks while attacking, so good Teleing Hot keying your skills and flicking threw them quickly. it's still possable for the PvM sorc to beat the PvP sorc Unless the PvP sorc is stacked Cold sorb. I've seen it happen and I've done it.

Honestly I don't see the problem with PKing. I don't think it would even be such a big deal to other people her is the TPPK crap or PvP panzie helpers didn't exist (auto aim far cast ect) I personally think they should just code things out to fix it so say a Sorc casts *insert long lasting spell here* it should be negated or disappear if they Take a TP regardless of Hostility being triggered and what not to prevent BS PKing. maybe enable/Disable hostility options in games so those who do not wish to participate in the great "PK hunt" can make that decision. but It kind of sucks that they would take it out. Personally I'm not a big PK Fan. I hate grieving people but there are times when there are some guys in game talking big crap who need to be put in there place and the hostility button comes in handy then :]

It's not a matter of "carebears crying because they don't like PvP" or "Bullies running threw grieving people" it's the fact that

1. with this System, it can be cheated, which result in the bull crap death of a person who had no way to defend them selves

2. those who wish to be hardcore in PvM but not PvP don't have a choice to be PvP or PvM.

Instead of ruining the game for people who like Chaotic hunt of the game they just need to give people the option to be apart of it or not. would be the logical thing to do to try to "Make every one happy"


I'm struggling to understand why people still don't comprehend that they can make private games and never have to worry about being pked.

IR to this. It's because people want to play online with other people. hard to do that in a private game. it's hard to Enjoy a game knowing you could be cheated out of living. the problem isn't really being the target of a PK, it's the issue of being "Sniped" so to speak. the PKers arn't "hunting" any more, and finding a honorable PKer is hard. these days it's *Drop a spell that has a duration* *TP to town and hostile* "Woops you died" you can't play with random people any more because they could Snipe you out with BS. honestly I think if TPPK weren't an issue (and enough with the BS it DOSE happen, and it happens frequently) then a lot of people wouldn't be so passionate about their views against Pking. It's easier to accept they lost because they were hostiled hunted down and killed than to accept defeat because they were cheated.

[CombatShrine]

I would be willing to concede that non-consenting hostility is tolerable if level requirements were strict. For example, you can only be hostiled against your will by someone within +/- 5 levels of yourself; you should be able to accept a hostility challenge from a character of any level though, if you want to try and test your level 50's mettle against a level 65 for example.

But in any case, the system as it is in Diablo 2 is broken. Of ALL the levels they pick to allow hostility....LEVEL 9???????? WHAT WERE THEY SMOKING? At level 9, I suddenly have a fighting chance against the rest of BNet? Whatever.

Level 30 would have made a lot more sense, because then everyone has access to their last available skill. Low level dueling wouldn't exist, but that was never that fun anyways imo (except for hc ironman).

True, you can set level restrictions in your games, but what if a friendly high-level wants to come in and help you? Or just wants to do some magic-finding? The drops and exp are only worth it when there are other people in the game, so it seems lame to have to limit the number of potential entrants into the game you made just because of PK'ers.

[windforce]

1. Please, tell me how not wanting to be PKed is more self-centered than a PKer going into a game and ruining it for everyone else.

a) I never said it's self-centered to not want to be PK'd. NOBODY wants to be PK'd, including me. Nobody likes to see their character die. I also hate dying to monsters, but you don't see me complaining that monsters are too hard. What is self-centered is completely ignoring all of the people who enjoy the non-concensual hostility system just because you don't like to be PK'd, despite the fact that PK is a defining feature of online D2. What makes it even worse is that you have plenty of in-game mechanisms available to you (I won't repeat them anymore, I'm done with that, you can scroll up) to easily avoid getting PK'd, yet you want everyone to not have this option. As for the PKer, they might be self centered too, but then again, you can say that anyone who kills another player in a game is self-centered. How about games like counterstrike where there are great players who demolish their opponents... are they self-centered, or just playing the game?

b) The game in which the PKer joins is not necessarely "ruined." Yes it might interrupt your quest, but then again, if people actually used the level restrict option, how often would this even happen? And second, whether or not a game is "ruined" is subjective. You chose to play a public game on hardcore mode, in which PK is always a possibility, but when you run into a PK you know you can't beat, then yeah you might feel that your game has been ruined. But PK's are something that come with the territory of HC. If you feel that their precense ruins your game, then maybe public HC isn't for you. When I am questing and a PK comes in, and I know I can't take him on, then I also feel like he ruined my game, so I must make a new game. But this is the trade off for playing in HC where PK is an added challenge.

2. "It is ridiculous to say that consensual-only pvp is a “means of dealing with uncooperative players”" You misread my post. It was meant as "[consensual dueling] or [a means of dealing with uncooperative players]." However, from my experience, I rarely saw anyone using hostility as a means of making somebody cooperate. Not saying it didn't happen, I just never saw it that much.

First of all, the whole idea of "cooperative" play being like the bible of video games which cannot be argued with, is complete BS. People don't have to cooperate all the time, and eliminating a game mechanism (hostility) in an atempt to force people to "cooperate" just makes the game watered down and childish. As far as hostility in HC goes, back when I still played the game, I used it every time some annoying kid starts mouthing off or some necro lagged up the game.

3. You keep mentioning that PKing is such a defining feature of the game. PKing in softcore games is practically nonexistant, and you have given zero proof that Hardcore is the "real" game.


Hardcore is just the highest difficulty level of d2. D2 is a game which was designed to take full advantage of the awsomeness that is nonconsensual hostility. I think that the carebear community was spoiled by softcore which made them feel safe thanks to the absence of PK. Then when they decided to try hardcore, they were unprepared for the carnage and proceeded to whine and complain until blizzard finally caved (props to the original D2 team that knew better than to cave to the requests of consumers who know nothing about game design). This is why I keep saying that non-consensual hostility is an intrinsic part of the diablo universe... because the rules that exist in HC are the rules that bring out the fullest experience of the game. That includes PK.

4. PKing makes a game inaccessible. To suitably deal with a well-built PVP character (which a PKer likely IS), one needs some pretty good equipment. It's rather difficult to build up said equipment if somebody tries to PK you every other time you join a game.

I believe the main reason for the game's phenominal success was the easy accessibility... anyone could create a character and go out killing monsters. But if you're suggesting that hardcore, the hardest difficulty of diablo, should be designed to be accessible to anyone, you are mistaken. Blizzard does not even expect you to jump right in to HC. Yes, the typical PKer is much stronger than his victims. That's why weaker players should utilize any of the many options (again, I'm not re-typing them) to avoid running into PK's. And if you can't deal with it, then don't play HC.


I think that's the best answer to the anti-PK crowd... DON'T PLAY HC, IT'S NOT FOR YOU.

You have an entire world, SOFTCORE, in which you don't have to worry about getting PK'd. Why come to HC when you can't handle the rules of the game? Stick to what you know, stick to softcore.

[Sass]

Windforce, Vitains, and Cevilo are the only people besides me who have actually presented decent posts so far, Sass you were making sense until you went off on some random tangents.I never went off on a random tangent, but ok. :)

I'm struggling to understand why people still don't comprehend that they can make private games and never have to worry about being pked. Is that really such a hard concept to grasp? Instead those of us who actually like pvp and pking will be given the short end of the stick due to the deluge of tears rained down on the devs.Priv games will solve a pk. Ofc. However, why should everyone be forced into a priv game? Why not just play SP? Why have HC over bnet?

"so you can pk since it adds danger". Riiiiight. I thought HC was supposed to be tough, not wimps only priving, and pk'ers who have no balls at all. oh well.

The point of me mentioning that PK was intended is that many anti-pk people complain that it is not an intended feature, but rather an abuse of lenient rules. The debate is whether or not it's an unfair abuse of rules or not.With a non-consensual hostility, the potential for PK was inevitable. While true that people are far wiser about getting PK'd, the idea behind it is still pathetic. In terms of fair vs unfair, it is unfair to the victim and the pker (well, his advantage, which is still unfair).

Online Diablo 2 (Hardcore especially) is a completely different game, in which PK is just as relevant as pvm. HC was specifically designed with that hostile system in mind.Provide a link to the interview with devs on HC please? :)

HC = one life, no second chances. It does not mean get killed by a nerd with no life.

When you sign up for HC, you DO agree to the fact that you can be pk’d, just like when you sign up for football. However the game STILL gives you the option to avoid PK’s by playing in private games, playing with friends, using level restrictions, or simply avoiding the PKer in-game… which is incredibly easy to do thanks to the time delays when you hostile someone. But nooooo… you have to have pk removed for EVERYbody, so that you can be 100% sure that you are playing a purely pvm game even when you’re in public games. Sounds a little bit self-centered doesn’t it? That’s because carebears are self-centered.Hmmm...I don't recall seeing PK in the agreement part. I do see that you get one shot only, and that chars can't be brought back. Nothing about PK. Or I'm blind.

It is ridiculous to say that consensual-only pvp is a “means of dealing with uncooperative players”. Just the opposite is true: UNconsensual hostility is the only way to drive annoying kids out of your game. The hostile system made it possible for players to manage themselves. That’s why I love Diablo games… they don’t baby the players like they do in most other games. Someone not contributing to the team? Hostile them. Simple, fun, dealt with. And if someone just wants to be a villain? They can do that, and that’s all part of what Diablo is all about.You're confusing a broken feature with something that the Diablo world is all about. The war between Angels and Demons wanting to destroy / enslave humanity and their fight for independence? NO THANKS! I have to kill someone trying to win my freedom because I have no life.

You are assuming that a PKer is automatically immature or something, and you are assuming that all people pk just to be assholes. Frankly, whether or not you are right about that doesn't matter because their reasons for wanting to PK are irrelevant. The hostile system is what makes Diablo2 unique from other games. By asking it to change, because YOU don’t like the system, completely ignoring all the people who do enjoy the hostile system for a huge variety of reasons, you are actually showing how immature you are. It's true that only the PKer knows why he does it. Does it make it right though? No. Trying to connect that is hardly logical.

And you're right about it being different; it's broken horribly (in a pk sense. In any real pvp, it's fine. )

And it is incredibly ridiculous to base the rules of a game on “maturity”. I could say that a person who whines and complains about the hostile system even though they signed up for it is equally as immature as the PKer. I can go even further and say that all Diablo players are immature because what is mature about spending hours playing a video game and caring what goes on in a video game community? What is mature about spending countless hours making your fantasy character just right? I’m sorry but it’s true: people who complain about a system just because it doesn’t suit their playing styles are immature if they believe that maturity exists in these games. You want maturity, play with people who fit your definition of what “mature” means.Playing a game and char development have nothing to do with maturity. And for an M rated game, you'd assume people would be mature and intelligent. Such is not the case with the PKer.

You see that little checkbox that says "level restrict"? Use it. Your problem is solved.That doesn't solve the problem completely. It reduces it, but the system is still broken, even if you're using a crutch.

when I first read you're post I was like "wtf yes it dose"... then I remember.
PvM = Actually playing threw the game.. not "rush rush baal baal rush rush baal baal rush rush baal baal baal" so In light of Legit PvM Players I agree that the builds wont match a rushed character of the same level in stats but they still have a chance if they are more skilled at using the build, faster reactions to being attacked and avoiding attacks while attacking, so good Teleing Hot keying your skills and flicking threw them quickly. it's still possable for the PvM sorc to beat the PvP sorc Unless the PvP sorc is stacked Cold sorb. I've seen it happen and I've done it.That's rarely going to happen, and that assumes it's a godly person with a pvm char vs a noob on a pvp char. Not always will that occur. If the pvp char is actually a decent duelist, the pvm build won't be able to keep up.

Honestly I don't see the problem with PKing. I don't think it would even be such a big deal to other people her is the TPPK crap or PvP panzie helpers didn't exist (auto aim far cast ect) I personally think they should just code things out to fix it so say a Sorc casts *insert long lasting spell here* it should be negated or disappear if they Take a TP regardless of Hostility being triggered and what not to prevent BS PKing. maybe enable/Disable hostility options in games so those who do not wish to participate in the great "PK hunt" can make that decision. but It kind of sucks that they would take it out. Personally I'm not a big PK Fan. I hate grieving people but there are times when there are some guys in game talking big crap who need to be put in there place and the hostility button comes in handy then :]This is true.


And maybe I would just have to stick to SC so I don't have to have keyboard tough guys trying to force their play style to attempt to justify PKing. That, and I'd like to duel many times, and it not end up being a contest of who can juv the best.

[LucianDK]

Pretty moot as it is, Blizzard listened and removed hostility because it was abused. Deal with it.

[Cevilo]

That's rarely going to happen, and that assumes it's a godly person with a pvm char vs a noob on a pvp char. Not always will that occur. If the pvp char is actually a decent duelist, the pvm build won't be able to keep up.

Ehh the more I think about it the less I can really argue here. It's honestly been a while sense I've Actualled played threw the game with out having a set up and rushes from friends. so yeah you win lol



This is true.

And maybe I would just have to stick to SC so I don't have to have keyboard tough guys trying to force their play style to attempt to justify PKing. That, and I'd like to duel many times, and it not end up being a contest of who can juv the best.

"key board tough" people are in SC, HC, Your IM, any form u visit. any where people can get together on the internet. and no one is trying to "Force" any thing. just expressing their views of how they like to play the game, some are getter more *erm* worked up about it than others, But it's just how they like to play. and no one needs to "justify" any thing. if they want to PK it is a part of the game no matter how you view it, so they can do it. the system how ever was *slightly* less flawed in Classic (before the game became duped to hell) when the best gear was all rare and PKing really was a gamble if u entered a hell HC game.
but in any case I'll have to agree with this last quote

Pretty moot as it is, Blizzard listened and removed hostility because it was abused. Deal with it.

[ZappaFan]

Online Diablo 2 (Hardcore especially) is a completely different game, in which PK is just as relevant as pvm. HC was specifically designed with that hostile system in mind.Provide a link to the interview with devs on HC please? :)

To provide the link I'll quote something I've already posted in the D2 Hardcore forum fairly recently as part of the many PK debates that have taken place in that forum.

OK, found what I was looking for. An old friend of mine from my Descent playing days posted quite an argument against PK'ing as a game feature (check out Sirian's Protest Page, it's a bit of a long read but interesting - http://www.warpcore.org/~sirian/diablo2/protest.html (http://www.warpcore.org/%7Esirian/diablo2/protest.html) ). Of special note is a reply made by the co-founder of Blizzard North, Max Schaefer, in regards to PK'ing being an intended feature of the game - http://www.warpcore.org/~sirian/diablo2/protest-2a.html (http://www.warpcore.org/%7Esirian/diablo2/protest-2a.html)

One part of what Max posted bears quoting that pretty much sums up Blizzard's feelings about it:

4) A story about heroes and conquests needs villians. Hordes of identical monsters do not fulfill this requirement in my opinion. Part of what makes the Diablo II community great is the great variety of personalities and styles. The last thing we want is to force people into some idealized regimen of "proper" role-playing. Rather, we sought to make a game where people create their own fantasies and adventures. and finally, 5) Diablo II and the expansion are the games that we at Blizzard want to play. That is our formula for success. Companies that design games based on focus groups, marketing opinions, and even fan input do not succeed. Although hearing the opinions of others are valuable to us, every design decision must pass the test of whether or not WE would want it in the game. In many cases, we've changed our minds after hearing compelling arguments. But we've decided that PKing is part of the Diablo universe. We are well aware that this does not please everyone. However, you are right: we are not apologetic about it. Not at all. Sure, we could implement a PK switch. It's a trivial coding task. But we wouldn't be being true to ourselves, and our goals as gamemakersObviously, for Diablo III they seem to have re-thought their position because from what I've read they are going to try and limit non-consensual player killing. But the fact is they've never made steps to do that with Diablo II, even tho it would be a "trivial coding task".

I myself don't care for it. I really wish they'd implement a switch where we'd have the option to disable it, or at least implement a timer. But the fact is they've never done it. So, like it or not, I have to adjust to it or stop playing the game.

But basically calling people cheaters, that are playing within the specified parameters of the game as it exists today, is not an option. That's flaming. They certainly aren't being warm and fuzzy people, they're being villians to be sure. But they're not cheating (assuming, as I said, they are operating within the non-cheat parameters that the game allows).
[/indent]

And that is going to be the last word on this subject. It's a TIRED old debate and very rarely can the debate be undertaken without people getting their panties in a bunch and making personal remarks/judgements towards other forum members regardless of their position on the topic. This already too long thread is self-evident of that fact.

[Jinchuu]

Pretty moot as it is, Blizzard listened and removed hostility because it was abused. Deal with it.

Thanks carebears you ruined the game before it even came out, and the sad **** is you're proud of it.

[CombatShrine]

Thanks carebears you ruined the game before it even came out, and the sad **** is you're proud of it.

Um. Us "carebears" didn't do anything. Blizzard did it. Grow up.

[MYK]

Thanks carebears you ruined the game before it even came out, and the sad **** is you're proud of it.

Funny enough, it's the complete opposite crowd that ruined the Hardcore realms, in REALITY, and not just some weak speculation made up on the spot to support some weak argument.

I've got no problems with a hostility system, but if you can't apply it in a somewhat fair matter and tweak it to be fair and balanced, then it totally fails and along with it the game, As Seen In Hardcore.

I hope that the time saved not having to deal with a hostility enabled environment benefits those that wish to co-op. :thumbup:

[windforce]

Max Schaefer's response to that carebear should be enough to close this matter, and conclude that Jay Wilson and co. do not understand what diablo is all about.


I've been saying this the entire time and I'm glad to see that I was right all along, because Shaefer said the same thing. D2 was designed to have villains other than monsters. This is what made the game so interesting. As far as I'm concerned, Schaefer's explanation is perfect, except for the fact that he did not see the vast array of PK hacks on the horizon. But this is not a real argument against PK anyway since d3 should supposedly be designed to not be a blank canvas for hackers.


I just want to get my last two cents in:
You people who agree with removing nonconsensual hostility have so many options available. PK doesn't even EXIST on softcore, so why not just play that?

If you want to play hardcore, you can still create situations in which you are 100% able to not be PK'd. In some cases that might mean limiting the people you are playing with. But why is it that you want PK to be removed for everybody just so that you can be able to play in all games without feeling inconvenienced? You have so many options... make private games or play with friends. OR make public games with level restrict to avoid high level PK's. And in the occasion that you run into a PK at your level, just DEAL with it... hide in town for a minute or two or just find a new game. Learn how to DEAL with a higher difficulty level instead of just *****ing. Instead you chose to ignore all the people who like the PK system and label our arguments irrelevant because PK "forces" you to not be able to play how YOU want.

The fact that Jay Wilson and co. doesn't realize how stupid their decision is just proves that he does not belong on the D3 project. He has made it way too obvious that he has not played hardcore. I even remember reading a quote from him a while back in which he stated that the current D3 team were never diablo addicts (if anyone can help me find that quote, that would be nice. I know it exists.). How can diablo 3, the sequal to the most addictive game of its generation, be designed by people who did not even experience in depth? And yet they are designing the next diablo game. Screw Jay Wilson... ugly, fat sack of crap.

[LucianDK]

People here doesnt seem to realize that even game designers may change their mind. Something that may have sounded neat and proper ten years ago, turned out to be such a massive dud when practiced in public.

Blizzard realized that and reversed their decision on hostility. It should do a lot to bring forth a cooperative and more friendly PvE enviroment.

Remember boys, all MMOs come with the disclaimer that things may change over time.

[MrBill]

Zappafan is quite right in that this topic has been talked to death (I certainly own my fair share of the credit or blame for that), so I'm not going to flog the dead horse of the PK issue itself anymore. (My arm is getting tired...) :whistling:

However, in reviewing the totality of the thread from the time that it was first registered, I can't help noticing that we have a very small number of posters (you know who you are) who seem to be doggedly committed to being able to "hostile" other players without the latters' permission, and a much larger number of players who basically just want the option to be left alone.

From what I have been able to see of the composition of player attitudes in actual D2 Battle.Net games, this pretty much corresponds to what happens in the game itself -- that is, PKers, particularly TPPKers and other cheaters, are a very small minority compared to the vastly greater number of conventional, co-op Hardcore players.

The point is, let's suppose (obviously I don't), just for the sake of argument, that allowing PK, TPPK and all the other annoying things that inevitably flow from the mandatory enabling of "non-consensual hostility" in public Hardcore Battle.Net Diablo LoD games, is objectively the greatest thing since sliced bread, why, it's so good, it's like cyber-crack, once you start doing it, you just can't stop. If only more people learned how much fun it is to be "hostiling", hunting down and murdering other players who haven't done anything to antagonize you, dumb, old-school loser n00b "carebears" like Mr. Bill would have to shut up and crawl back under a rock, because all the new PK'ers would enthusiastically spread the news about this wonderful, unique new on-line play mode.

But, oddly, after years of it being allowed in public Battle.Net Hardcore games, this hasn't happened; in fact, the opposite has. There is now a huge majority of D2 players who either mildly or vehemently oppose "non-consensual hostility", with a very small (pun intended) "hard core" group that is fanatically committed to the idea of PK'ing.

Viewed from Blizzard's point of view, which remember is purely marketing- and sales-driven, this kind of situation is really a no-brainer, especially when you consider that the PK'ers generally come from a very restricted demographic (male, ~13 to ~30 years of age -- I have yet to encounter a PK'er who credibly seemed to be a female), whereas D2 co-op players (although still mostly male, I would guess) come from a much broader cross-section of society, including younger children, older adults (like me!) and quite a few women.

No marketing manager in his / her right mind would let a "feature" that appeals only to a very small number of players, drive a much larger potential audience away from the game (and possibly Battle.Net / Blizzard in general -- remember that they don't want a bad experience from Diablo to prejudice "Mr. and Mrs. Average American" against WoW, StarCraft and all their other titles).

Perversely, I understand why this kind of logic drives PK advocates nuts, because if Blizzard goes through with their announced plans to "dumb down" D3 by removing "non-consensual hostility", it's kind of like making it more like the Disney Channel and less like HBO. I strongly oppose this kind of thing when it's some government trying to make the public Internet "family-friendly", but the fact remains that Battle.Net is Blizzard's private value-added game network, and they have the right to do whatever they want with it, in the objective of attracting more players and making more money. (Welcome to capitalism, baby!) ;)

It's always problematic using this "argument from majority" simply because a large number of people can be just as wrong as a small number of people, but in a commercial on-line environment like Battle.Net, this is not only something that I would expect Blizzard to take notice of, but, more importantly, my guess is that it explains why they (apparently) have decided to take a different approach with D3 compared to D2. I'm just disappointed that it has taken them this long to do so.

Mr. Bill

[ZappaFan]

Well said Bill, and with that we bid this argument adieu.