Announced: No Hostility in D3 [Archive] - Diablo 3 & Diablo 2 Forums

Full_Circle

22-08-2008, 14:26

Ankeli

22-08-2008, 14:31

*Sigh* Asshats. (http://www.myconfinedspace.com/watermark.php?src=wp-content/uploads/2007/03/bear-how-about-no.jpg)

I hope they still include Hardcore, but I can't see a way to make hardcore pk'ing work without hostility-toggle. PvP, sure, in separate arenas or something... but no pk'ing :/

Toothache

22-08-2008, 17:37

Both parties should accept a hostile status before being allowed to be attacked by a player, rather than it just needing one person to go hostile. That way, people can refuse to duel and be safe of not being killed, and those people who wish to duel can consent. Seems the most logical way to me

ZappaFan

22-08-2008, 17:38

I thought was he was saying was pretty reasonable. Sounds like the motivation is wanting to avoid the whole tppk problem. He says "insta-kill". What he's describing is exactly how tppk-hostility works.

http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=686520

I especially like how this guy (The lead designer on D3, I've been told), doesn't understand how hostility works.

However, what I do not like are the implications.

They don't know what they're going to do for PvP, but they know they're getting rid of 'Hostility.' I don't have a problem with that decision. What I have a problem with is what he revealed about how they came to that decision. They made a blanket decision for D3 based entirely on the "whine factor." People who get TPPKed whine a lot (which is fine), but this guy doesn't even take the time to understand what they're whining about. He strikes me as a person who's either A) Never played D2 in his life, or B) Never played HC. This is the guy calling the shots... a guy given the greatest two-game series in the history of gaming, and he's too lazy to do his job. My hopes for D3 have dropped significantly since reading that interview.

And here's my prediction...

There will be no Hardcore in Diablo 3.

And my 2nd prediction...

There will be no Trebol in Diablo 3 if I'm right.

5zigen

22-08-2008, 18:24

http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=686520

I especially like how this guy (The lead designer on D3, I've been told), doesn't understand how hostility works.

However, what I do not like are the implications.

They don't know what they're going to do for PvP, but they know they're getting rid of 'Hostility.' I don't have a problem with that decision. What I have a problem with is what he revealed about how they came to that decision. They made a blanket decision for D3 based entirely on the "whine factor." People who get TPPKed whine a lot (which is fine), but this guy doesn't even take the time to understand what they're whining about. He strikes me as a person who's either A) Never played D2 in his life, or B) Never played HC. This is the guy calling the shots... a guy given the greatest two-game series in the history of gaming, and he's too lazy to do his job. My hopes for D3 have dropped significantly since reading that interview.

And here's my prediction...

There will be no Hardcore in Diablo 3.

And my 2nd prediction...

There will be no Trebol in Diablo 3 if I'm right.

Dropping the hostility system was an incredibly logical move from a design standpoint. Non Consented pvp is a negative of the game no matter how you look at it.

I doubt they will drop hardcore because they dropped non consented pvp (i.e. the hostile system). I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion just because people who had been tppk'd whined (note that SC players tended to whine when tppk'ed also).

The logic for dropping Hostility mode hinged on the fact that that mode discouraged both group play and public play. There is no such link to that and hardcore. Hardcore, in actuality, tends to encourage cooperative play much more than discourage it. However that was all stifled with the existence of tppk...

Whine all you want, but this will remove an extra layer of greifing that that game really didn't need.

Full_Circle

22-08-2008, 19:08

I doubt they will drop hardcore because they dropped non consented pvp (i.e. the hostile system). I'm not sure how you could come to that conclusion just because people who had been tppk'd whined (note that SC players tended to whine when tppk'ed also).

This is a new game. They're starting from scratch and ignoring traditions, as this interview made very clear. There is no "dropping hardcore." The question is whether they think it's important enough to take the time to include hardcore.

Considering Blizzard's ignore the hardcore players policy for the last few years and the fact that the lead designer has shown us without a doubt that he's never played hardcore on bnet, I'd say the chances are very slim.

MoUsE_WiZ

22-08-2008, 21:20

I feel that on the side of all our games, we really try to make PvP games that cater to a competitive player, first and foremost. We don't try to dumb down or tone down our PvP games. We make [them] good, strong competitive games. StarCraft is one of the best examples.
I lol'd.

More so than the move to remove hostility, the fact that I'm thinking we've got another WoW on our hands, with constant nerf calls and requests for free items from whiners who think they need to "compete" in a game that's really just a massive timesink that has no semblance of balance beyond RPS/metagame, is what really bugs me.

But whatever, we'll have to see what happens.
Removing hostility doesn't really come as a surprise, they hinted at it a while ago... it makes me sad, but it's one I can handle. The concept that the game should be competitive though... isn't that what SC2 is for?

Edit: Treb, if there's no hostility, then why would you assume there's no HC? It seems to me that hostility is only a big deal in HC, so such an early/emphatic announcement that it won't be there seems to me that we're still getting the fun mode in the game. Another possibility is giving us a PvP mode (as in WoW, only without factions) where you're opting out of hostility by joining a group, rather than the other way around... that's one we have to wait and see on.

Galabab

23-08-2008, 01:29

Omikron8

23-08-2008, 03:26

it's more like

"hey a high level i'll party with him so he can help me kill X act boss"

"oh hey he went hostile and there's a blizzard raining on my head"

give people the option of fighting fair or cheating and they'll take the second route every time

TheDarkSide

23-08-2008, 09:46

I think they are going to eliminate the Pvp aspect of the game in D3 . Its going to be arena style for all your Pvp action from now on . Too many Hackers ruined the pvp aspect of D2 ..

Which really doesnt bode well for the new and improved Bnet V2 Imo . And basically admits that they cannot keep out the hackers but they will just remove a part of the game to compensate for that ..

I'll have to agree with Trebs in that No Hardcore Mode = no TheDarkSide in D3 ...

5zigen

23-08-2008, 10:05

Baranor

23-08-2008, 10:21

slong as they keep HC,I'm ok with this. no HC, no Barry.

xOSERx

23-08-2008, 14:04

I thought HC was more like "Oh look, someone twice my level went hostile"

*esc*

*click*

*chat screen*

But maybe I'm just a wuss...

zrk

23-08-2008, 19:35

I thought HC was more like "Oh look, someone twice my level went hostile"

*esc*

*click*

*chat screen*

But maybe I'm just a wuss...

Dont underestimate your own laziness :thumbup: And not just in PvP situations

Omikron8

23-08-2008, 23:17

you need to be a man and stand your ground and die against that high level

you are HARDCORE aren't you ? hardcore people don't run away from danger

Garisdacar

24-08-2008, 00:35

yeah, and ppl who are HARDCORE don't hunt guys half their level either, right? guys who are HARDCORE don't rush you a couple acts and then kill you just to laugh at you as a n00b.

this change will improve play for hundreds of ppl who just want to play the game.

deadbeater

24-08-2008, 03:58

No hostility? That means...arenas! Yes! Pkillers, go the f away! Don't beg me to rush your characters.

Frostraven

24-08-2008, 18:36

What is the hole point in HC mode if they take the thrill of danger lurking bihind each corner. When u see that high level coming into your game and knowing "alrite im the game now and hes the hunter" and if i outsmart the cocky aggressor its almost just as fun for me as being the hunter.

BLIZZARD PLZ KEEP HOSTILITY AND HC JUST AS IS!

Seriously.

If you're a level 50 character and a level 85 pvp sorc enters the game.
You will not win.
You will not escape.
You will die unless you get to safety.

Yay -- It's a thrill the first time.
Not for me. But I constantly hear about people like you who enjoy it.
I do not.
I do not know about anyone who plays HC (who doesn't PK) who likes beeing hunted.
Not the first time. Not ever.

Which... leads me to believe you like PK-ing people.
Or you're just one of those guys who loves to run into heavy traffic all day long.

If there was different factions. Ok.
The assassin working for the devils comes out of the shadows to kill the sorceress of light.
Fair.
There is no other side than the side of light in the game though.

When a paladin comes out of nowhere and takes a piss on your paladin and takes your gear out of the blue.

It's out of place.
It's out of role.
It is disgusting.

It's one of the things which is wrong with the game.
I've never looked at the hero of Diablo II as a mass-murdering evil bastard who Tyrael would rather mop the floor with than to assist.
I've never seen Diablo II as multi-threaded where you choose to play as evil or good.

Anyways.
No out of the blue insta-PK?

Good riddance.
I do hope there will be factions.

War is fine.
Backstabbing is not.

ThulRasha

25-08-2008, 16:27

I have taken that quote, made it a bit darker and added some grit filter on it:
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7974/blizquotewv3.jpg

I think it looks much better now. Lets make a petition.

ZappaFan

25-08-2008, 17:53

One of the problems with non-consensual PvP is that it's totally slanted in favor of the PK'er. Just think about it terms of character build. The PK'ers have a big advantage in making their build specifically suited for PvP while the PvM'er isn't. Most good PvM builds do not also defend well against PK of a similar character level. So there really isn't anything romantic about the notion of a PvM player staying in a game to take on another human character that enters the game and hostiles. The only time it's a fair fight is when a PK'er takes on higher level players.

Dahkar

25-08-2008, 19:43

I believe this is ridiculous, and just plain laziness on blizzards part. They do not want to deal with TPPK, so they take the easy way out. No one actually dies from the hostility unless they:

A. Are tppked.

or

B. They choose to stay.

Honestly, how often does a legit PK'er actually "ruin" a game as well. It is much more often tppk. If a legit PK'er hunts you, you have plenty of chances to get away.

Hodl Pu

25-08-2008, 21:16

On soft core, if you get TPPKED, big whoop? Just retrieve your body when he leaves are just rejoin.

On hardcore, if you get TPPKED, too bad. But really, why would a person who is scared of losing his character even play HC? People who play HC LIKE the risk and most of them know how to take care of their characters from dying in all situations (from PK's to NPC's). Honestly, the only people complaining about TPPKER's in HC are those who have probably played it for the first time without knowing the risks involved.

On softcore, there really is no need need to whine at all.

Well anyway... I just wanted to point that out because it bugged me. As for my opinion, the button can go if they want, as long as HC stays.

Mizantrop

26-08-2008, 00:01

I see no reason why D3 won't have HC in it what so ever. But I can see a nice concept in an arena or something like that where you can't die just lose or win. That way you can dual in HC just for the fun of it if you are tired of PVM.

ThulRasha

26-08-2008, 09:24

Why all the worry over TPPK?
Last I heard, town portals will not be in D3. (despite seeing one in the gameplay trailer).

Akse

26-08-2008, 09:36

At least we have some less hack/script attempts to worry about when there is not even possibility to kill another player just like that. No matter what online game where you get to kill other players or grief them in some way there have been cheats to help you do that.

Why all the worry over TPPK?
Maybe because TPPK is just the latest form of cheating.

There have been many ways to to kill people in the past by exploiting the game mechanics or by the flaws in the game.
Anyone remember:
dualwield bug/hack that allowed you to dualwield 2h weapons(spears etc) when you entered the screen of a player that didn't have the hack active he would timeout from the game and you would get easy kill-

another timeout type of killing bug was the cow portal outside town.. when you mouseovered the portal you would timeout.

Of course if these things always keep evolving we would come to a point where one could just instantly kill another one without even hostiling.. I suppose some of these have also been around sometimes.. not so popular tho.

ThulRasha

26-08-2008, 11:37

Latest? TPPK is old.

And please don't misquote like that. The 2 lines in my post go together. Quoting just a single one completely misses the point.
If there are no town portals, why worry about town portal player killing?

I do understand that you only used it as example, but the topic was starting to become about tppk, it seemed.

Akse

27-08-2008, 08:47

Yeah people wouldn't need to worry about tppk but what I meant there would be other forms of cheating for sure.

TPPK is old but it is the most used and annoying thing there has been in the last year or so.. thats why latest.. maybe latest problem.

tppk has been around since before LOD where first hydra and firewall pks came around but back then you didn't have a program to do the hostility for you. But yeah I guess the scripts came along when they put the hostile delay when you enter town.

Jarath

29-08-2008, 00:14

Honestly, how often does a legit PK'er actually "ruin" a game as well.

"Ruin" might be a strong word but anyone who forces me to hide in town or S&E is certainly a disruptive annoyance. One that I shouldn't really have to put up with.

On hardcore, if you get TPPKED, too bad. But really, why would a person who is scared of losing his character even play HC? People who play HC LIKE the risk and most of them know how to take care of their characters from dying in all situations (from PK's to NPC's). Honestly, the only people complaining about TPPKER's in HC are those who have probably played it for the first time without knowing the risks involved.

Swing and a miss. The reason TPPK is complained about is because the mere threat of if is enough to drive almost the entire HC community into playing private games.

One of the problems with non-consensual PvP is that it's totally slanted in favor of the PK'er. Just think about it terms of character build. The PK'ers have a big advantage in making their build specifically suited for PvP while the PvM'er isn't. Most good PvM builds do not also defend well against PK of a similar character level. So there really isn't anything romantic about the notion of a PvM player staying in a game to take on another human character that enters the game and hostiles. The only time it's a fair fight is when a PK'er takes on higher level players

Correct. Easily fixed by creating classes and skills that are not so obviously slanted one way or another.

Zerosugar

29-08-2008, 00:51

http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=686520

I especially like how this guy (The lead designer on D3, I've been told), doesn't understand how hostility works.

However, what I do not like are the implications.

They don't know what they're going to do for PvP, but they know they're getting rid of 'Hostility.' I don't have a problem with that decision. What I have a problem with is what he revealed about how they came to that decision. They made a blanket decision for D3 based entirely on the "whine factor." People who get TPPKed whine a lot (which is fine), but this guy doesn't even take the time to understand what they're whining about. He strikes me as a person who's either A) Never played D2 in his life, or B) Never played HC. This is the guy calling the shots... a guy given the greatest two-game series in the history of gaming, and he's too lazy to do his job. My hopes for D3 have dropped significantly since reading that interview.

And here's my prediction...

There will be no Hardcore in Diablo 3.

And my 2nd prediction...

There will be no Trebol in Diablo 3 if I'm right.

I used to be a griefer pvp'er in some of the MMO's i have played starting with Everquest back in 99'. Im a big fan of PvP and sometimes griefing but in a consensus form. Not the lame duels where you "Hey wanna duel?" *bows* "lets begin" sort of way..that has nothing to do with true pvp imho. The way you consent is by playing on pvp enabled servers/games and run the risk of getting killed. The way it is in D2 is there is no way to avoid pvp (which there should be) if you create an open game. All you can do is try and be fast with a portal and wait for them to leave. People should have an option not to pvp as well as having the option of being able to pvp. The whole D2 PvP system is flawed and cater to the antisocial TPPK'ers. Leave players the option of creating PvP enabled games would be a good solution instead of forcing people who has no interest in it to participate in some morons form of fun

Spero

29-08-2008, 13:22

I love the risk of being PKed in public games where I don't know anyone. I think it makes HC a lot more fun. Otherwise it's the same thing every time and why play the game more than once?

I also think it's a blast to wait for the pker to come and try to kill my character. I would build as strong a character as possible and some times the pker had to flux. Good times. :jig:

Omikron8

31-08-2008, 04:48

and you think the majority of HC players share your viewpoint ?

Unholy_VI

04-09-2008, 03:12

Zerosugar

05-09-2008, 18:29

It sounds to me like they

plan to have PVP servers like in Wow. If they do that's fine with me. I can't imagine anything much more fun than a pvp hc server for me to enjoy. Then all you carebears can stick to your own server and never have to worry about ol Unholy comin for your ear.

I mean, you'll still whine I'm sure but that's because it's just your nature.

bla bla bla my e-peen is bigger than yours you keyboard toughguy

I'm all for different servers or a toggle option that gives people options ..it's the only thing that makes sense.

Relativity

07-09-2008, 07:56

The only real PvP-oriented decision that we've made and announced is that we do not allow the "hostility mode" that Diablo II had where you can go into town, go hostile, pop back through a town portal, and insta-kill your friend.
Am I the only one who thinks he isn't talking about TPPK, and that the guy doesn't know how the current game mechanics work?

He just said:
1) Go to town
2) Go hostile
3) Pop back through a town portal
4) Kill friend

Which isn't even possible. If he meant TPPK he would have said:

1) Go to town
2) Go hostile
3) Insta-kill friend

RIP Blizzard North.

Tai.

07-09-2008, 19:32

That's exactly how I read it sir.

Seems to me that he believes you can take your own portals while hostile, which makes me a tad confused to say the least. If they split the servers and the duel system is FUNCTIONAL that's great. If they split the servers and we end up with a HC PvP server with chicken, auto-aim, farcast and all that crap again (which is what I suspect is more likely) then the PvPers will be royally screwed as they won't have any way to scrounge up legit ears - which is why many PvPers I know turned to PK.

Tashohnie

08-09-2008, 17:17

I must admit I have just started baal run PKing and its great fun. So many childish kids giving insults its rather funny. Damn armchair warriors -.-

sleep

09-09-2008, 11:20

Hostile servers and friendly servers?

eg. Hostile servers = more exp/ bigger drop rate etc, and keep the old hostility system.

Friendly servers would have normal exp / drop rate etc and no hostility.

Just throwing it out there...

MoUsE_WiZ

09-09-2008, 14:16

Why on earth would you put more exp/drop rate on the other servers?

Relativity

09-09-2008, 20:43

Greater risk, greater reward? Novel concept imo. >_>

Tanis

09-09-2008, 22:59

What about something like "if someone goes hostile in town, you have 2 seconds to hit an 'opt out switch'...He/she can't PK ya then, just laugh at ya sissyness... (that way you can still game with your friends in the same game) This 'opt out' is not allowed if you have attacked anyone in that same game, and/or in the last XYZ amount of time.

MoUsE_WiZ

10-09-2008, 07:40

Greater risk, greater reward? Novel concept imo. >_>
Flawed concept in this case.

The risk comes from the difficulty and/or time associated with gathering the exp/items. Not only that, but since we're seperate from the SC player pool, we don't actually get richer as we're just competing against people who have the same drop/exp rates, so there's not actually any reward either.

Basically all that happens is the game gets boring and ends that much sooner.

MoUsE_WiZ

17-09-2008, 00:19

well, why would you want to play with someone else? They can go hostile at any time and kill you, mostly in an exploitative way. It's not fair - most of the time you'll be dead before you realise they're attacking.
Another interview...
See, he knows it's TPPK (or at least an exploit) that does the instant killing.

Also fun:
The average game size for Diablo II on Battle.net is 1.2 players
Given the prevelence of bots, I'm not sure that "average game size of 1.2" is really a good arguement for a need to improve co-op play by removing hostility. Especially when you're aware the only reason it's "instant" is due to an exploit which has no business existing. Especially when hostility only really effects HC, which surely is not a huge contributor to the number of games being taken into account in the average.

Oh wells.

Tai.

17-09-2008, 16:28

The 1.2 I would think is almost entirely people MFing or botting.

gregkennedy

17-09-2008, 21:32

I have taken that quote, made it a bit darker and added some grit filter on it:
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/7974/blizquotewv3.jpg

I think it looks much better now. Lets make a petition.

win for all eternity

MoUsE_WiZ

16-10-2008, 06:08

From the video posted on this site (http://diablo3.battlenet.pl/portal/d3/1/99/Wywiad_Battlenetpl_z_Jayem_Wilsonem_i_Rayem_Gresko .html):

They are not going to focus on D3 as an esport.
I'm ecstatic about that... it was my single biggest "I hope they don't WoW it up" issue going forwards =)

Not really related to the hostility debate, but meh.

Edit, same video but even more unrelated: apparently Jay Wilson is taking inspiration from dota XD

classix

19-10-2008, 11:23

Flawed concept in this case.

The risk comes from the difficulty and/or time associated with gathering the exp/items. Not only that, but since we're seperate from the SC player pool, we don't actually get richer as we're just competing against people who have the same drop/exp rates, so there's not actually any reward either.

Basically all that happens is the game gets boring and ends that much sooner.

you clearly never played hardcore classic. i feel sorry for you.

MoUsE_WiZ

19-10-2008, 21:26

you clearly never played hardcore classic. i feel sorry for you.
Um... what?

GoDSamurai

19-10-2008, 21:47

do not allow the "hostility mode" that Diablo II had where you can go into town, go hostile, pop back through a town portal, and insta-kill your friend. That just makes people not want to play the game.
I completely agree on this. I am not saying to remove PVP totally, but that kind of cheap move must be removed.

MoUsE_WiZ

20-10-2008, 00:10

I completely agree on this. I am not saying to remove PVP totally, but that kind of cheap move must be removed.

Good thing that kind of cheap move was never, at any point, a part of D2 then...

Frostraven

20-10-2008, 00:33

Yes. Because the insta-kill happens two steps earlier:

Wrong: you can go into town, go hostile, pop back through a town portal, and insta-kill your friend

Correct: you can go into town, go hostile and your friend dies

Because... you know... that small difference makes it so much more better.
"Oh. You don't have to be where he is to kill him, you stay in safety, thats a lot more fair than killing him face to face in the wild!"

Seriously.

Four people were killed in a car accident. How awfu... what? Only ten people died in the car accident? That's great, *much* better than four! How could they make such a mistake in the first place, making the crash sound a lot more serious than it was!

MoUsE_WiZ

20-10-2008, 06:20

Because... you know... that small difference makes it so much more better.
If players had to take their TP back from town it'd actually make it about a thousand times better. You'd have an incredibly large amount of time to respond to the action and the hostile player would be there ready for you to attempt to kill.

But thanks for trying.

Frostraven

20-10-2008, 07:45

Try again to correct those who bash the dev's quote for it's errors, when the quote actually shows that the devs MIGHT believe TPPK is much more fair to the PKee than it actually is -- as I was showing in my post? :scratchchin:

MoUsE_WiZ

20-10-2008, 15:40

Try again to correct those who bash the dev's quote for it's errors
I'm pretty sure that I bashed the other guy for agreeing with the dev's quotes despite its errors...

TPPK has nothing to do with hostility being removed. TPPK would be very trivial to fix, even in D2 with its current structure, nevermind in a new game where they could implement projectiles&hostility in any way they want.

The Jay Wilson quote implies that he thinks hostility currently works in a manner that it doesn't. The guy I quoted seems to believe hostility currently works in a manner that it doesn't. People who don't know how the game works shouldn't be commenting on how the game works.

Because... you know... that small difference makes it so much more better.
Four people were killed in a car accident. How awfu... what? Only ten people died in the car accident? That's great, *much* better than four!
And I'm pretty sure I corrected you because your example implies that the ability to instantly take a portal back after hostility would be a terrible thing for gameplay, just less terrible. Really it wouldn't be that bad at all... hell, it'd be even easier to avoid that than WP jumping, and nobody ever came even close to getting me by skipping the WP timer.

jamesisbest

21-10-2008, 07:14

Getting rid of pvp took away a game element for a few and added a positive game change to the majority. I think people are in large part overreacting, pking is essentially a form of griefing, doesn't make much sense for Blizzard to try to erradicate griefing and leave in the most popular form of griefing (pking). Pking is a form of entertainment that feeds off the frustration of others which is not conducive for multiplayer gameplay. I think pking may have also been done more frequently because the pvp in Diablo 2 isn't the most solid aspect of the game. With Blizzard intending to put a lot more focus on pvp and improving many aspects of pvp I'm sure a majority of people who pk'd will find enjoyment in fighting others in consentual pvp. For those who strive to put people down there will still be plenty of oppurtunities for boasting, criticizing, and insulting in pvp.

classix

22-10-2008, 00:24

jay wilson is a retard, who has zero idea who the hostile or tppk system worked.

its SO easy to patch tppk - they can even incorporate the anti tppk hack to stop it, but its the hostile system that shaped and moulded the hc community on europe, certainly the ladder, and above all, the pvps that happened from ladder slot fights.

although he has it wrong, im sure ppl have pointed out his obvious mistake to him in the office, and they are just too proud to say he got it wrong.

regardless, we play hardcore for a reason - we are better than softcore players, we can handle death - be it pk, duel or - yes - even tppk death from an idiot. but more importantly, its a tool used to control the ladder.

edit: even tho this was said a month or so ago, alot might of changed. they did initially say that hostile would remain in hardcore cus it had no point in softcore.

nonetheless, ofc they have learnt from wow that catering to the carebears is ++++++++ $$$$$$$$$'s so pvp will ofc be an after thought. i still hold hope that they will give us some kind of pvp mechanic on hardcore.