View Full Version : Has Tyrael been working with the Prime Evils from the start?
ZSiegfried
15-10-2008, 16:17
I know this has been mentioned before but I would like to find out what peoples opinion is on the matter...
Tyrael was the one who gave the Horadrim the soulstones and it was clear that that was pivotal in Diablo's plan to become stronger.
The Worldstone was supposed to protect Sanctuary from Hell's invaders and it was his idea to destroy it. He has always acted against the orders of Heaven and it seems that his meddling has caused more harm than good...
Either way, where is Tyrael now? Has he become evil? Was he evil from the start? Or will he continue in DIII as the coolest character in the game?
SoulSpectrum
15-10-2008, 21:46
I think he'll be the coolest character around. There's already enough in the lore to pull some meany villians, that if they did make Tyrael evil it would just be a drag compared to others...
I believe he's good. Izual states that the Primes had a plan to get entrapped in the soul stones, which went according to plan. Tyrael wanted them to be captured, but to be done with, which was his plan. In theory I could see him doing for the Primes, but don't want/expect it to be true.
The World Stones purpose is actually to hide Sanctuary from the Burning Hells and High Heavens. It was so that Inarius could train his lil super race in his own lil world. The High Heavens wanted Sanctuary to be left alone to choose what side of the battle they'll join if any, hoping that they'll take care of the Burning Hells.... lazy angels!... Tyrael didn't see that fit, he wanted to stop the Burning Hells and make Sanctuary an ally to the High Heavens, and by doing so he went against the order of vote by the Angrius council to let it be. That would make sense if he was to be exiled out of the High Heavens. His meddling did indeed do my harm than good...
Where is he after 20 years? That's part of the D3 main story.... why nothing's happened in 20 years.... My bet is that he went to the Angrius Council to warn them of the Burning Hells invasion, to try to pleed with them for Sanctuary and their sakes.... he probably got captured and jailed for that, or Imperius sees that the vote of order was broken, giving him the right to destroy Sanctuary.... who knows?
I like my Tyrael good ><, It'd be to cheesy and Blizzard like for him to turn evil.... that really get boring to see after Warcraft doing that a dozen times.
ZSiegfried
15-10-2008, 23:58
I also hope he stays good... Tyrael is by far my favourite character in the series and won't enjoy that "twist"... I would actually love to read a book where Tyrael takes the leading role...
Great idea about Tyrael being imprisoned! Wouldn't that be an awesome quest, not unlike the rescue of Cain in DII...Not that I enjoy thinking about killing angels :thumbsdown: but still an awesome quest...
And I'm glad that someone still wants to keep some Goodness in the Diablo Universe... Keep it true Brother...
AcidReign
16-10-2008, 07:51
Tyrael is my favorite character from any game. I hope he remains on the "good" side, and attempts to spread justice even further.
If he is evil, he better be the end game boss..... Otherwise I won't allow it.
ZSiegfried
16-10-2008, 09:54
At best I think Tyrael is in trouble with the Angiris Council and probably banished or jailed... Hopefully they don't barter him off like they did Inarius to Mephisto... Well if we get to save him then I don't mind, would be an epic quest!
SoulSpectrum
16-10-2008, 21:13
They could barter him off to the Burning Hells.... that'd please some of those meanies. I have a feeling though, that because of the Sanctuary and High Heavens "time zone difference" That the burning sign from the skies is indeed Tyrael. Why would he fall from the sky like that? Could be because of the Burning Hells raging war on the High Heavens and someone sent him down here because they look at him as a "lesser" being. Tsk tsk, those angels sure or snobby little dou*** bags. His sign could be that the High Heavens are all but lost in this war (leaving who next to fall?).... one possibility. Another is involving the time zone difference. What about Imperius sending him smashing down here because of his betrayl to the council therefore making him nothing more but part of Sanctuary. Keeping in mind that then Imperius would want to raise the vote again for destruction of Sanctuary (which would leave heaven open for the Burning Hells, but that's something entirelly seperate). Tyrael's home isn't anymore, poor boy, so he'd be one of us! All in all, I can honestly see Tyrael as that harpbringer /sign of great flames from above.
ZSiegfried
16-10-2008, 23:54
WoW, you really out did yourself in conspiracy theories this time round! And it got me really thinking!!! I think you are 100% right!!! I am 99% sure that Tyrael is the burning sign in the sky! He is the commet falling from the sky that hits the Monastery...
Reasons I say this: (I am going from least to most convincing)
1) In the trailer, just as they say "the people pray" it shows the comet falling, praying for what? For help! And who has always been the Divine helper? Tyrael. (I know that at first it seems like a stretch at first but in the bigger picture it will make sense)
2) Where does it show the comet falling on? The Monastery! What do you see on the DIII Blizzard site? Tyrael sitting in the EXACT same monastery!!! You can go check, I am 100% sure that it’s the same place they show in the trailer.
but here come the kickers:
3) Look very closely in the cinematic trailer, you can see something fall through the roof of the monastery around 2:12 on my version and exploding within the monastery. What do you see? Only exploding fire? No, you see blue within the fire, blue wings? maybe?!?
4) And lastly, what makes me 100% sure that it’s an Angel? (Not necessarily Tyrael, but if you think its Tyrael on the Blizzard site it’s probably him) the fact that there is artwork currently on the Blizzard site that shows an Angel immersed in flame!!! At first I thought it was an Angel being attacked but now I am pretty sure it and Angel coming out of flame, which is the comet hitting the monastery!!!
Its Tyrael coming out of the comet!!!
Wow! I am on sugar high at the moment! What do you think? I really hope that other people haven’t seen this and already dismissed it! I would look like a real *** getting excited over nothing!
SoulSpectrum
17-10-2008, 01:58
Ah, you're quoting what I say almost! there can only be one! you must die..... j/k
Anyways, yeah nice observations on the video. However that angel rising up from flames isn't Tyrael..... or atleast that's my guess.... If it's anyone it's Imperius.... strong firmed sword, that's his slogan. Check it out! Also there's another picture of Tyral shielding his eyes froma luminating Angel.... well that luminating angel has the sword symbol again, Imperius' slogan.... would prove his power of the High Heavens.... showing that he is a major defense of High Heavens, he's the war angel..... player distracts Imperius, Hell takes Heavens, or tries.... simple
Edit: the comet is probably tyrael, but the other angel looks too much like imperius. I'll try to find that picture with both in one. it's a cin drawing(official!)
ZSiegfried
17-10-2008, 08:08
Oh sorry for almost quoting you directly, I tried to make it sound like it was your theory but obviously didn't do such a good job of it. All I did was see some blue in between the fire, I was just all excited because I found 'proof' that what you said was not theory but a fact(or very close thereto), I can honesty admit that I didn't think that the fire in the sky was Tyrael until your post... Last thing I want to do is steal someone's ideas... And I hope you aren't gunning for my head anytime soon,it would suck loosing it before the game comes out,or a few months after that for that matter... You are probably right about the other angel, the photos I used don't feel like Tyrael but show the fire/angel combo quiet well. I thought that they supported my argument very nicely...
SoulSpectrum
17-10-2008, 08:55
I don't care about who tells what when or first. Knowledge and information is something that should be shared and passed on by all. It's truely the best way any society can succeed. IT's all cool.
I wasn't saying Tyrael wasn't the meteor... I'm actually with you 100% on that. The picture of the other angel however, I don't feel like it could be anyone else but Imperius. I believe that tyrael was smashed down here and Imperius follows directly to make some statment, because again those angels are self righteous snobby little bastar*s. I think that the game starts with your guy seeing that comet towards the Cathederal and quest by quest you dig you way down to it. Once there you see Tyrael broken in pieces like a little girl getting her pony tail stuck in a lawn mower. Imperius follows and says blah blah blah, behold my superior power I'll crush this pathetic abomination of a world blah blah blah. Then it leads onto something else.... Or it could be Tyrael as the meteor crashing down to give us the warning that Imperius is there.
Here's something that you'll probably love
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/Daemaro/imperius3.jpg
ZSiegfried
17-10-2008, 09:39
Haha! That is quiet awesome! For the first time you can clearly see that there are TWO angels in that pic. This just validates everything in your previous post! Good call!
Unless you can say that that is before Tyrael gets thrown or whatever to Sancuary. There is one pic with Tyrael in obvious discomfort in a hall with runes on the ground, much like the hall where those multiple picture you showed me is based in (I saw one with more photo's like that in the Blizzard DIII artwork gallery) That might be the scene where the Council confronts Tyrael and where he might be told to clear up his mess or Sactuary will be destroyed... Linking his fate with that of sanctuary... And when Imperius banishes him ala comet.
I don't care about who tells what when or first. Knowledge and information is something that should be shared and passed on by all. It's truely the best way any society can succeed. IT's all cool.
I wasn't saying Tyrael wasn't the meteor... I'm actually with you 100% on that. The picture of the other angel however, I don't feel like it could be anyone else but Imperius. I believe that tyrael was smashed down here and Imperius follows directly to make some statment, because again those angels are self righteous snobby little bastar*s. I think that the game starts with your guy seeing that comet towards the Cathederal and quest by quest you dig you way down to it. Once there you see Tyrael broken in pieces like a little girl getting her pony tail stuck in a lawn mower. Imperius follows and says blah blah blah, behold my superior power I'll crush this pathetic abomination of a world blah blah blah. Then it leads onto something else.... Or it could be Tyrael as the meteor crashing down to give us the warning that Imperius is there.
Here's something that you'll probably love
http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e305/Daemaro/imperius3.jpg
That's most likely not Tyrael, I mean since when do Tyrael wear a helmet?
I know the discussion's been going in the direction that it's Imperius himself who has come to destroy the world of Sanctuary, which I find a lot more plausible.
Although helmets might be the new fashion in the heavenn (hmm I wonder if diablo wears a santa hat?!)
I think the ideas of Tyrael being in trouble with the Angiris Council and him being jailed are pretty cool and it makes sense after reading SoulSpectrum and ZSiegfried's comments.
But I don't think he is the comet. Unless he has turned evil, which could be possible but I doubt it. In the the cinematic trailer the comet is portrayed as very threatening to say the least. You see a peaceful city at nighttime, most people are sleeping or relaxing. Then suddenly a massive ball of fire falls from the sky. And while this is happening the narrator switches from "pray for strength and guidance" to "pray for a swift death". The next scene shows what seems like the crater created by the comet, while the next shows thousands of soldiers coming from the crater.
ZSiegfried
18-10-2008, 22:48
Hello there fellow South African :wave: Makes me happy to see a local poster!!! Weird, completely off topic, but do you play online? Because whenever I try the lag drives me insane and I rather play single player... But I really want to do the Pandemonium Events etc...
Anyway, thank you for the compliments! But here is my reply.
1) The crater wasn't created by the comet/meteor/fallen angel; it’s actually Mount Arreat where the worldstone was destroyed! You can find it on the Diablo World Map on Blizzard.com.
2) I think the soldiers are actually Baal's demons from act V in LoD... I am not 100% sure on this but that’s my opinion... The whole army and Tyrael throwing the sword is a flash back...
3) I am 100% sure the meteor/comet/fallen angel, hits the monastery, you can see it in the trailer and in the artwork trailer, go have a look on my profile, I created an album called Tyrael theories or some such, there you can see a smaller crater in the monastery.
4) I also don't think Tyrael is evil BUT I do think he might be the bearer of very bad news as in war is coming or Imperius is going to destroy Sanctuary or something like that. Basically, he has been banished and has to fix the problem or be killed with Sanctuary or whatever (open debate). That’s what I think!
5) Combine the artwork in the monastery, the look of the meteor/comet/fallen angel (all in my album) and the fact that Diablo III homepage in Blizzard has Tyrael sitting in the EXACT same monastery where the meteor/comet/fallen angel fell, combines to make me really think it’s Tyrael!!!
But there is nothing better than a good debate so please, find flaws in my theories so I can learn and make better ones! :thumbup:
Post Script: Please let me know about the online gaming... I am tired of just lanning with friends...
Hello there fellow South African :wave: Makes me happy to see a local poster!!!
Same here :)
1) The crater wasn't created by the comet/meteor/fallen angel; it’s actually Mount Arreat where the worldstone was destroyed! You can find it on the Diablo World Map on Blizzard.com.
Oops my bad. Makes sense.
2) I think the soldiers are actually Baal's demons from act V in LoD... I am not 100% sure on this but that’s my opinion... The whole army and Tyrael throwing the sword is a flash back...
Tyrael throwing the sword surely a flashback but I'm not so sure about the armies. Why is the narrator suggesting that the people should pray for a swift death if the danger is not imminent?
3) I am 100% sure the meteor/comet/fallen angel, hits the monastery, you can see it in the trailer and in the artwork trailer, go have a look on my profile, I created an album called Tyrael theories or some such, there you can see a smaller crater in the monastery.
Yes I mistook the part hitting the monastery as a fragment of the comet or something. The entire comet hitting the monastery makes more sense. The only reason I thought the comet made the big crater was because if a comet of that size hits the ground it makes quite a mark.
4) I also don't think Tyrael is evil BUT I do think he might be the bearer of very bad news as in war is coming or Imperius is going to destroy Sanctuary or something like that. Basically, he has been banished and has to fix the problem or be killed with Sanctuary or whatever (open debate). That’s what I think!
5) Combine the artwork in the monastery, the look of the meteor/comet/fallen angel (all in my album) and the fact that Diablo III homepage in Blizzard has Tyrael sitting in the EXACT same monastery where the meteor/comet/fallen angel fell, combines to make me really think it’s Tyrael!!!
The comet could be Tyrael, but it could also just be a sign. In my discussion on Leah's personality on the "Who is Leah?" thread I said she seems like the type who can interpret these things. I think that is why she sounds so frightened at the end of the clip; she had a premonition. If it was Tyrael she would not have said she doesn't think it's safe; she would already be running for the hills.
ZSiegfried
18-10-2008, 23:42
Mmmmm... I haven't thought about Lea as much... But I think that she has a premonition makes good sense and that she can interpret these types of things would be cool, hopefully she plays a big role in the story...
Also remember she is with Cain in the monastery so the imminent threat she could be referring to could be the awakening of King Leoric as they start burning the bodies OR she might be thinking that she might get hit by a falling something... You can see she is in the monastery when the something hits it!
Personally I think the first act is going to be you trying to find whatever hit the monastery... It looks like the falling something went quite deep down... I initially also thought that the crater was made by the meteor and only realized it wasn't after a while!
Personally I think the first act is going to be you trying to find whatever hit the monastery... It looks like the falling something went quite deep down... I initially also thought that the crater was made by the meteor and only realized it wasn't after a while!
Yes if you assume the marching army is also a flashback or it is unknown to the NPCs that the player comes into contact with during the first part of the game then the start of the game would be at a low pace: go fetch cain, check out the hole in the monastery. If the game is to fast at the start new players tend to struggle a bit.
ZSiegfried
19-10-2008, 00:29
I think Blizzard has tried to make it very clear that most NPC's don't know much about what happened in the first few games... Many quotes say that many people thought it was only rumours and those who came into contact with the evil has gone crazy, others are scattered across Sanctuary... That type of stuff..
SoulSpectrum
21-10-2008, 21:53
I think Blizzard has tried to make it very clear that most NPC's don't know much about what happened in the first few games... Many quotes say that many people thought it was only rumours and those who came into contact with the evil has gone crazy, others are scattered across Sanctuary... That type of stuff..
Yeah, the timeline on the Blizz site shows that the games took place in relevant short time. Most people probably haven't seen any major forces of evil. They all have their own reasons like Earth does. Some believe in religion, some in science or magic, some just think that's the way things are. In the games we're following directly in the foot prints of evil, so we're seeing everything in its full. Everything is just word of mouth like in the good old days before telephones and televisions.
Oh and at EzkiMo, yup I don't think that Tyrael has a helmet either. the top picture in that link is what I'm guessing Imperius with a helmet flying up and Tyrael shielding himself.... I can't think of any other angels that would have a conflict, ruling Inarius out because of what he would current look like..... delicous
SoulSpectrum
21-10-2008, 21:56
Haha! That is quiet awesome! For the first time you can clearly see that there are TWO angels in that pic. This just validates everything in your previous post! Good call!
Unless you can say that that is before Tyrael gets thrown or whatever to Sancuary. There is one pic with Tyrael in obvious discomfort in a hall with runes on the ground, much like the hall where those multiple picture you showed me is based in (I saw one with more photo's like that in the Blizzard DIII artwork gallery) That might be the scene where the Council confronts Tyrael and where he might be told to clear up his mess or Sactuary will be destroyed... Linking his fate with that of sanctuary... And when Imperius banishes him ala comet.
Damn that's a good point! "The Judemnt of Angels" would be a good line :cloud9:, But as for Tyrael "cleaning up his mess" I don't think would happen.... Those angels aren't necessarily the most forgiving of fellows....
Apocalypse
27-10-2008, 13:11
i think they might spin tyreal into a bad guy but i really hope he stays good. if they do turn him bad then that entire act 2 ending cinematic makes no sense to me so yeah leave him as our protector from the sky
SoulSpectrum
27-10-2008, 19:33
Eh.... having Tyrael and Cain being evil this whole time would just screw up the story....
However, seeing them get a lack of heart, that's a different possibility. I can see one of them just giving up, or fading away, but turning evil? Come on, that's like Thrall in warcraft turning corrupt or Raynor from Starcraft turing into a Zerg.....
jamesisbest
27-10-2008, 21:55
I agree with Ezkimo that I think the angel is more likely to be Imperius. Besides I think if they made Tyrael evil it would really seem like an unnecessary plot twist. I think the way the angels are portrayed in what lore I have read is that they really aren't "good". I think Imperius and a majority of the angels dislike Sanctuary while Tyrael and his supporters actually want to gain the popularity of Sanctuary. Tyrael and his followers were prolly punished for meddling with Sanctuary and the rest of the angels might possibly want to end Sanctuary so they can go back to their war with the demons without a wildcard in the way. At this point so little of the story has unfolded that there isn't really much evidence to support each person's theories. I think it is a good thing that Blizzard has kept the story very vague up to this point so we can keep guessing at what is going on (and so that not too much story is given away before we play the game).
Aidopunko
06-11-2008, 18:57
I just got done reading the three Sin War books and I have to say that I don't think Tyrael is evil. The books talk about him being almost a brother to Inarius who created Sanctuary.
Inarius created Sanctuary because he rejected the eternal fighting between the High Heavens and the Burning Hells. If anything, D3 might be about Tyrael also rejecting Heaven, perhaps being cast out by his fellow angels and siding with humanity. The Sin War books talk a lot about demons being evil and barbaric but also about angels being rigid and leading to stagnation. The survival of Sanctuary and humanity is very much about neutrality otherwise Sanctuary would become just another battlefield in the eternal war between heaven and hell.
Also, some points about the Worldstone. I think the books mention that Inarius 'stole' this and used it to create the world of Sanctuary like it is somehow the building blocks of the creation of the universe. It was also able to somehow shield the world from the attention of both Heaven and Hell.
After Inarius learns of the creation of the nephilim (humans) through the union of angels and demons, he uses the worldstone to dampen the powers of the nephilim so that after a few generations they lose all their powers. Lilith (his demon girlfriend haha) betrays him and corrupts the worldstone so that it instead gradually feeds that power.
When Tyrael destroyed the worldstone, he did so because Baal had corrupted it. Obviously, leaving the worldstone as it was may not have been the best idea in that situation.
I don't think doing so somehow reveals the world of Sanctuary to heaven and hell since both angels and demons arrive and start fighting at the end of the Sin War trilogy. Tyrael can appear in Sanctuary just as the Prime Evils have on a few occasions. So obviously, both Heaven and Hell already know about Sanctuary.
The reason that angels and demons are a rare occurrence is because Mephisto made a pact with the Angiris council that he and his brothers would not interfere with Sanctuary if they did not. Both sides have been looking to persuade humanity to join with them because that might give them an advantage in the eternal war.
So, last point - I think D3 will be about that 'pact' being ended and the consequences for Sanctuary.
ZSiegfried
08-11-2008, 00:20
Great 1st post Aidopunko! You make a lot of valid points! Worthy of thinking about...
One more possibility for the thread title that someone came up with some time ago was that D2's Tyrael could be in fact Belial (Lord of Lies) disguised. I've not read any Diablo books yet, and after Aidopunko's post I find it improbable. It's a lesser evil after all, and the other lesser evils have received little attention by the games.
I do not think Tyrael will turn "evil", but it's probable that he forsakes the High Heavens or be forsaken by them, and pledges his allegiance to Sanctuary and mortal men. More probable yet is that he and Cain die, in my opinion :P
You know, last game in this specific storyline, opening doors to make an MMO if they choose to go that route in the future (would suck), etc.
this is completely absurd, but it would be funny if Cain was Lord of Lies disguised, meaning we've been hearing all his stories of nonsense since the beginning :D
mestonica
13-11-2008, 20:55
One more possibility for the thread title that someone came up with some time ago was that D2's Tyrael could be in fact Belial (Lord of Lies) disguised.
Now that you mention it... Tyreal did seem to have a different voice in the expansion of D2... different from the rest of the game. Like when he tells you the world stone must be destroyed...
Anyway, here is my thoughts...
If it was tyreal that destroyed the world stone...
I think that the armies of demons in the cinematic are, in fact, baals minions. I think that they are charging Mt. Arreat right before it blows up. They show the Arreat crater in the cinematic as well as a reanimated D2 scene where tyreal throw his sword at the world stone. Why would they reanimate that scene? I think that alot of the trailer is from the end of D2, showing what happened as the WS was destroyed.
As far as the comet goes. It did not destroy the catherdal like a real meteor would. which leads me to believe that it not a "real" meteor, but tyreal coming to warn the world, or being banished there. Doesnt it seem a bit too convenient that the "meteor" would fall in the tristram. Of all the places in the world to land... Also, leah and cain are there. Tyreal trust cain from D2. I think he has come to warn the world through him specifically.
I think that after he destroyed the WS, tyreal went back to the HH and tied to warn them about the growing threat of hell thanks to the corruption of the WS. When the council and Imperius heard what he had done, they prolly locked him up for treason until they could figure out what to do about this news. Maybe imperius convinced the council to do away with sanctuary because it was more trouble than it was worth... maybe tyreal was to share the same fate as sanctuary and was banished there. Or perhaps he escaped from his prison (possible that room with the runes on the floor) and made his way to sanctuary to warn cain, thus the world of the impeding doom.
Also, maybe they are pissed at tyreal for destorying the WS because it was such an important artifact... not to mention his meddling the the affairs of mortals (which they told him NOT to do). Maybe they had just had enough of his insubordination?
So. I think that the 1st cinematic will consist of what happened in the last 20 years. Maybe tyreal will recap the events in a flashback to the council before their final ruling on the matter. The flashback could show tyreal destroy the WS, baal's armies wiped out, Mt. Arreats explosion etc...
Once tyreal arrives at the cathedral, he is weak (maybe turned into a human????? for his betrayal) and warns cain of the "terror" that Heaven is going to inflict on sanctuary.
Thats just my thoughts... any constructive criticism? Help me out!
Tim
Excellent Ideas,
I agree entirely that this "meteor" is in fact not a rock. Having not been as read in the lore, I'm curious if anyone knows how exactly angels came to Sanctuary initially? If they do in fact fall from the sky, it's safe to assume whatever just fell was in a hurry to do so.
I however can't see it being an angel. Firstly, if Leah is in fact the seer everyone makes her out to be, she shouldn't be afraid of Angels, unless of course it's Imperius coming to kickass. The opening line on the D3 site states "And the Heavens Shall Tremble," which can be presumed to be a major plotline spoiler. Why should the Heavens tremble exactly? And why hasn't sanctuary been run amok by demons? The logical solution (and likely the wrong one) is that the Lesser Evils, having been rid of the 3 brothers (or having them at least weakened), have used this time to resume their war on Heaven, which is what they wanted to do in the first place. None of this sin war crap for them.
On purely speculative grounds, what if in the last 20 years, Heaven just lost :S Hell has conquered heaven, and now they've turned their eyes to sanctuary. This would explain A) why cain and leah are ****ting their pants over the fact that demons are once again spilling into sanctuary and B) why both Tyreal and Imperius are chilling in tristram cathedral; they've been over run and are coming to sanctuary to help out.
The best part about all of this is that after kicking the demons out of Sanctuary, you have to go save the heavens, which would be bad ***.
So Tyreal = Good guy? I hope.
Please, pick the crap out of this, someone needs to tell me I'm stupid.
It would be cool if he turns bad, that would give a good reason to why Diablo comes back.
bottledwater
10-12-2008, 16:23
bit of a rant, but stay with me.
tyrael has always been evil, and it was right in front of our eyes.
firstly, how he looks: his face is a dark mass. in fact, the only thing glowing and not black about him is his armor, the rest of him is just a shadow.
secondly: in the game izual supposedly led an assault on the burning hells, thats where he was captured and turned, but when you "rescue" him, he says "tyrael was a fool to have trusted me", which to me sounds like conflicting stories. also, if tyrael has the wisdom to create the soulstones (or use them rather), and has the foresight to see all this stuff happening, he would absolutely have had the foresight to see that izual would have fallen, maybe he sent izual (or let him go, or maybe told him of the soul stone's secrets) so that the prime evils (who are his allies) would be able to learn their secrets without it being traceable back to tyrael, just in case the heaven people got suspicious.
also, we know he got kicked out of heaven (or was repremended or something to that order, the basic idea is that the forces of heaven dont really like him much) because he interfered with the affairs of the mortals, but we don't know what exactly happened other than the soul stone thing.
another point people bring up a lot is that he got owned by diablo and baal in tal rasha's tomb, which doesnt make much sense since he IS an archangel.
also, a lot of the things he does make me think he *wants* the evils to win, like when he tells MARIUS, of all people, to take the soul stone to the hell forge, i mean, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?! Marius doesn't have enough wits to NOT pull the stone out of tal rasha, so he must either be stupid, or planning something.
thirdly, notice how we dont actually have the devil himself, ANYWHERE. we have diablo, but he is the lord of terror, NOT the devil (even though his name means devil in spanish, but thats just a leftover thing). the heavens have gods, the hells should have the devil. where is the devil? i think its tyrael. remember the devil is the mastermind of deception.
forthly, why dont diablo, baal or mephisto just kill tyrael? he seems like he is a lot of trouble.
fifth(ly?), the worldstone exists to prevent the burning hells and the high heavens from spilling forth into the mortal plane, destroying it would cause a giant wave of evil and good to spill into the mortal plane, so why destroy it? he claims its because it was corrupted by baal's destructive touch, but i think this is a lie, and here is why:
first of all, what we know as baal, is just tal rasha, he is an avatar, he can cast a few spells, but he *isnt* the true prime evil, he is just a figurehead. secondly, if baal wanted the worldstone destroyed, or corrupted, he wouldn't need a physical presence in the mortal plane, he could have just done it from the burning hells, since the world stone MUST exist in both heaven and hell, in some form, to prevent them from coming to the mortal plane (sort of like a door, you can't have a door on the inside of the house, but no door on the outside, even though its the same door)
also, the world stone was created by inarius, an archangel who later did the nasty with lilith to create nephalem, which were humans with super magic, then he made the world stone to drain the human's magic with each generation, and also to keep heaven and hell out of the mortal planes, but later on he was captured by mephisto, so mephisto KNOWS how to corrupt the worldstone, because he is torturing the guy who made the thing. here is my guess:
the worldstone is like a 3 way door, in order for one side to be able to travel to another side, both of those side's doors should be destroyed, the prime evils could easily have done this to the part of the worldstone that exists in the hells, but needed someone really strong to destroy it in the mortal plane, someone like the devil himself, or perhaps a fallen archangel (it WOULD make sense that inarius would make a fail-safe mechanism on the worldstone, and only the divine touch mixed with the hellish touch could destroy it.
basically the whole point of the last point was that tyrael destroyed the worldstone so that the hells could spill over to the mortal plane.
also, hold on a minute. HOLD ON! how did tyrael GET to the mortal plane in the first place, i thought the worldstone existed to prevent things JUST LIKE THAT from happening? here is what my whole theory is culminating on:
tyrael, is in fact, one and the same as inarius, the guy who created the mortal planes, and the world stone, that is the ONLY explanation for how an angel could have traveled to the mortal plane, given the fact that the world stone exists to prevent angels and devils from doing just that.
also, maybe he really DID want the prime evils killed, but maybe it was for the same reason as the lesser evils banishing the prime evils, so he could rule. the thing about the heavens is that there is a council that governs it, and they are united, but the thing about the burning hells is that the 3 brothers who rule it are not especially connected, and don't really work with each other very well, they are loners, so its easier to pick them off.
inarius/tyrael wanted an end to the war b/w heaven and hell, i think he is getting it by taking over hell.
lastly, this is just me, but i think god is the evil one in the bible, and satan is just the guy who refused to listen to daddy, i mean think about it, god smites people left and right (Sodom and Gomorrah anyone?), but satan has killed maybe like 4 people. i think this is a perfect example of how the ruling faction is demonizing the underdog.
so in short:
it is one of these things:
1. tyrael is evil, and has been evil all along, because he is the devil himself, it would make sense because assuming the council in the heavens is the equivalent of god, he does seem to refuse to listen to them regarding humans, just like lucifer.
2. tyrael and inarius are the same person, and it would explain why tyrael helps humans so much, because they are basically his kids, it also explains how he could bypass the world stone.
3. tyrael is really who he says he is, but he wants to take over hell, it would explain his erratic behavior.
Dude you got cool ideas there but I think you also got way over your (or Blizzard's) head... I'll turn your "firstly, secondly, etc" into "1, 2, etc":
1 - It's really strange that he doesn't have a face, but it could just as well be only an artistic choice.
2 - Why him being an Archangel should make him powerful enough to stop Diablo and Baal alone? He should loose alright. And about Marius, I think he was the only option at the time...
3 - I don't think Blizzard will ever include a unique God or Devil in the game, which makes a direct reference to the ones in the bible. However, it would make sense to turn Tyrael into a bad guy if they want to "close this story", by story meaning the three brothers. The three get owned but now we have an even worse enemy because he becomes the three united or something like that.
4 - Well, they tried, but maybe he can't die like the three and just go back to Heaven? Maybe he is ninja and cannot be caught? Maybe he is almost as strong as the hero and lesser demons are not a match...
5 - I don't agree with the door thing. I think what he meant about corruption was that Baal was able to make it penetrable only by Hell. So WTF, he wants to party too, so he destroyed it. I DO agree though that this excuse is fishy at best.
HOLD ON part - Yeah I also always wondered about how he got there. But then the 3 brothers also got there before they were imprisoned in the soulstones, oh so many ages before. Maybe the books explain that, I must read them but I'm waiting for the compilation. I ordered a few days ago the compilation that's already selling, but it doesn't include the sin war books.
Arguments about the real bible part - PLEASE DON'T START THOSE HERE!!!
so in short part - I liked your ideas, but I think only a small part of them would be chosen by Blizzard. The number 1 has a very small probability in my opinion. 2 is cool, depending on what was written on the books (To everybody: please don't spoil it!). 3 is alright, I think the Heavens always wanted to exterminate Hell, but they couldn't for ages, could they? They need Human support for that. But they cannot succeed, or else the game cannot continue. So I think we'll discover that both Hell and Heaven suck and discover a way to close ourselves inside our little Sanctuary once again. The catch is that we'll close a very nasty someone inside too. Maybe this someone will be killed in the expansions, maybe not.
firstly, how he looks: his face is a dark mass. in fact, the only thing glowing and not black about him is his armor, the rest of him is just a shadow.It might just be me, but I never took that as being evil or bad in anyway. The only bad is a bad-*** representation of an angel. Diablo easily has THE coolest looking angels I have EVER seen.
secondly: in the game izual supposedly led an assault on the burning hells, thats where he was captured and turned, but when you "rescue" him, he says "tyrael was a fool to have trusted me", which to me sounds like conflicting stories. also, if tyrael has the wisdom to create the soulstones (or use them rather), and has the foresight to see all this stuff happening, he would absolutely have had the foresight to see that izual would have fallen, maybe he sent izual (or let him go, or maybe told him of the soul stone's secrets) so that the prime evils (who are his allies) would be able to learn their secrets without it being traceable back to tyrael, just in case the heaven people got suspicious.Well, from Tyrael's point of view, Izual was captured and interrogated to reveal the information. Tyrael didn't know that it was a feint and that Izual willingly gave the information. He is trusted by neither Heaven nor Hell and was corrupted by the forces of Hell. he eventually became a demon, we kill him and he...IDK disappears.
also, we know he got kicked out of heaven (or was repremended or something to that order, the basic idea is that the forces of heaven dont really like him much) because he interfered with the affairs of the mortals, but we don't know what exactly happened other than the soul stone thing.I think the soul stones alone made him go against the Angrius Council and shunned by Imperius. Tyrael, being the Archangel of Justice, wants mortals to have a chance to live.
another point people bring up a lot is that he got owned by diablo and baal in tal rasha's tomb, which doesnt make much sense since he IS an archangel.Well, if some Deus Ex Machina angel randomly appears when we're questing, slays all 3 prime evils and leaves, we're left without acts 3,4,5 :P I can see how an Archangle should be able to handle them, but not only were the Primevil's power diminished, so were his. On a pure 1v1, they may well be tied, but a 3v1 when he's not as strong as he could be...not good.
also, a lot of the things he does make me think he *wants* the evils to win, like when he tells MARIUS, of all people, to take the soul stone to the hell forge, i mean, ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?! Marius doesn't have enough wits to NOT pull the stone out of tal rasha, so he must either be stupid, or planning something.+1. Marius is dumb as a brick ><
thirdly, notice how we dont actually have the devil himself, ANYWHERE. we have diablo, but he is the lord of terror, NOT the devil (even though his name means devil in spanish, but thats just a leftover thing). the heavens have gods, the hells should have the devil. where is the devil? i think its tyrael. remember the devil is the mastermind of deception.The Heavens don't have a god...per se. Trang-Oul hinted that there are factions more powerful and far more superior than the Burning Hells and the High Heavens, but the Archangels are the top dogs in the Heavens.
forthly, why dont diablo, baal or mephisto just kill tyrael? he seems like he is a lot of trouble.Maybe they can't. The Council and the Great Evils have battled for eons, but no casualties O.o
fifth(ly?), the worldstone exists to prevent the burning hells and the high heavens from spilling forth into the mortal plane, destroying it would cause a giant wave of evil and good to spill into the mortal plane, so why destroy it? he claims its because it was corrupted by baal's destructive touch, but i think this is a lie, and here is why:Well, when entering the mortal plane, it weakens the outsider and fights to push the being outside the realm again. Tyrael's power keeping him in Sanctuary eventually waned to the point that he couldn't stick in act 2 much longer.
first of all, what we know as baal, is just tal rasha, he is an avatar, he can cast a few spells, but he *isnt* the true prime evil, he is just a figurehead. secondly, if baal wanted the worldstone destroyed, or corrupted, he wouldn't need a physical presence in the mortal plane, he could have just done it from the burning hells, since the world stone MUST exist in both heaven and hell, in some form, to prevent them from coming to the mortal plane (sort of like a door, you can't have a door on the inside of the house, but no door on the outside, even though its the same door)That's assuming it has a doorway effect. I've always assumed that it was only in Sanctuary and is like a cloaking device on a ship: It hides the realm and also prevents angels / demons from entering or knowing about it. Mephisto eventually made Inarius talk and spill the beans on his creation.
the worldstone is like a 3 way door, in order for one side to be able to travel to another side, both of those side's doors should be destroyed, the prime evils could easily have done this to the part of the worldstone that exists in the hells, but needed someone really strong to destroy it in the mortal plane, someone like the devil himself, or perhaps a fallen archangel (it WOULD make sense that inarius would make a fail-safe mechanism on the worldstone, and only the divine touch mixed with the hellish touch could destroy it.Again, that assumes that there were Worldstones in each plane of existence, but it's only found on Sanctuary (or they'd have already used the WS in heaven and hell).
basically the whole point of the last point was that tyrael destroyed the worldstone so that the hells could spill over to the mortal plane.That was the plan, because now the angles can spill forth as well.
also, hold on a minute. HOLD ON! how did tyrael GET to the mortal plane in the first place, i thought the worldstone existed to prevent things JUST LIKE THAT from happening? here is what my whole theory is culminating on:I'm sure he has his own methods. Also, he was weakened tremendously, so it could have just taken alot of power to over ride the WS. It's not some absolutely omni-powerful stone.
tyrael, is in fact, one and the same as inarius, the guy who created the mortal planes, and the world stone, that is the ONLY explanation for how an angel could have traveled to the mortal plane, given the fact that the world stone exists to prevent angels and devils from doing just that.Inarius is currently in Mephisto's S&M chamber in the Burning Hells. His eye lids were ripped out so he'd always see himself in the mirrored room he's in. Kinda hard for him to be Tyrael AND be tortured at the same time. Also, that isn't the only explanation for how an angel can get to Sanctuary. If Inarius can bypass it, others can anyway.
also, maybe he really DID want the prime evils killed, but maybe it was for the same reason as the lesser evils banishing the prime evils, so he could rule. the thing about the heavens is that there is a council that governs it, and they are united, but the thing about the burning hells is that the 3 brothers who rule it are not especially connected, and don't really work with each other very well, they are loners, so its easier to pick them off.He does want the Great Evils killed, but that's because he's an Archangel and they are at war, not to rule.
inarius/tyrael wanted an end to the war b/w heaven and hell, i think he is getting it by taking over hell.Whom ever wins the souls of the mortals, wins the Sin War. He doesn't want the Burning Hells to serve him, he wants them eradicated.
1. tyrael is evil, and has been evil all along, because he is the devil himself, it would make sense because assuming the council in the heavens is the equivalent of god, he does seem to refuse to listen to them regarding humans, just like lucifer.As far as they know, the Archangels are like a Pantheon of Gods, and the Great Evils is the Pantheon of Devils. One archangel can go against the rest, but that's how a council runs anyway.
2. tyrael and inarius are the same person, and it would explain why tyrael helps humans so much, because they are basically his kids, it also explains how he could bypass the world stoneAgain, Inaruis is a bit occupied with the bondage thing going on. Tyrael helps because the mortals deserve Justice as well. They should have a chance to chose their side in the Sin War, not be forced to a side, which is what the Burning Hells believes. However, Imperius is the Archangel of War and would rather slaughter humans to prevent the hells from obtaining them than risk the mortals choosing a path.
3. tyrael is really who he says he is, but he wants to take over hell, it would explain his erratic behavior.Almost. All angels want demons dead, and vise versa. It's the basic foundation in the Sin War. Tyrael wants Hell destroyed, but not to rule it. They want Chaos gone (which is where Trang-Oul and the priests of Rathma come in and maintain balance between Order and Chaos.)
bottledwater
10-12-2008, 21:20
jeez guys my argument just got ripped to pieces o.O
also i forgot to mention this, why didn't diablo or Baal chase after Marius even though he had the soul stone, methinks they were league. there are too many plot holes regarding tyrael in the game and the books. also if mephisto took inarius and imprisoned him, he might be able to do the same to tyrael (maybe he did, in like a stealth ninja operation) and replaced him with a fake decoy. thats a bit unlikely but if that is what happened i wanna see tyrael vs. tyrael.
If anything, it might be Belial, Lord of Lies that we see. He's a master of deception and lies, so maybe illusions to help those deceptions?
Sass is right, there are some other threads where people thought about Tyrael, or at least the Tyrael that appears AFTER his defeat to the diablo/wanderer + baal/rasha duo, being in fact Belial. Tyrael would be dead or taken somewhere, probably Hell.
I also think that this is a possibility, but I would not count on it very much. If true, Belial would play a major role in the game, and the focus is primarily on Diablo and then on his brothers. Also Hell would be a major part again, and I think that this game will have its tougher fights in Sanctuary (new places) and Heaven, because we've got a lot of Hell already.
About Marius being able to escape from the 2 brothers, the only reason I can come up with was that Tyrael bought him enough time to escape and the two didn't have enough time to chase him because they wanted to reunite with Mephisto. However, I also think that recovering Baal's soulstone would be pretty high in their TO-DO list, and the opportunity should not have been missed. What's worse is that later Marius was there at the reunion of the three, and they did not see nor sense him (or chose to let him be). But then, if they had, we would loose Marius prematurely and that great cutscene where Baal finally finds him and takes the soulstone. I'm glad they let him live a little more :)
jeez guys my argument just got ripped to pieces o.O
also i forgot to mention this, why didn't diablo or Baal chase after Marius even though he had the soul stone, methinks they were league. there are too many plot holes regarding tyrael in the game and the books. also if mephisto took inarius and imprisoned him, he might be able to do the same to tyrael (maybe he did, in like a stealth ninja operation) and replaced him with a fake decoy. thats a bit unlikely but if that is what happened i wanna see tyrael vs. tyrael.
Just a second mate. Mephisto took Inarius, because it was a pact he did with the Angiris Council, it was his "prize", because he wanted to punish Inarius for creating a world in which his own son Lucion died. All the Angiris Council members (Tyrael included) were there, and they all agreed, in change of a "mark" of Mephisto's blood. That's why he could have not taken Tyrael. In the books, the Lord of Hatred wasn't so "full of himself" when meeting the Angiris Council, but of course, neither were they at seeing the prime evil.
Other stuff i've read in your other post, i would like to discuss:
1) Tyrael is NOT Inarius. They are some sort of brothers actually. Inarius is the creator of Sanctuary, he is a renegade. Tyrael on the other hand, is the Archangel of Justice. He found Sanctuary by himself, and at first he himself wanted the nephalem distroyed. Even Trag-Oul and Rathma were stunned of the fact that Tyrael found Sanctuary, and they were afraid it was the end of it.
2) Tyrael in on Sanctuary because he is the savior of Sanctuary. He had the decisive vote in the Angiris Council for the fate of Sanctuary. He ruled for the human, because he saw the sacrifice of Uldyssian (remember, he's the Archangel of Justice, so he does Justice here).
3) Tyrael could not defeat Diablo and Baal at once. However, as shown in the cinematics, he would have defeated Diablo for sure, and easily too, but not the both of them.
4) Tyrael appears in the Worldstone Chamber because he is the ONLY ONE who could do that in Sanctuary, because the Relic of the Ancients was forged for him (again, he's the savior of Sanctuary), and gave by Nihlathak to Baal.
Cheers,
UGTM
bottledwater
11-12-2008, 19:33
1) Tyrael is NOT Inarius. They are some sort of brothers actually. Inarius is the creator of Sanctuary, he is a renegade. Tyrael on the other hand, is the Archangel of Justice. He found Sanctuary by himself, and at first he himself wanted the nephalem distroyed. Even Trag-Oul and Rathma were stunned of the fact that Tyrael found Sanctuary, and they were afraid it was the end of it.
2) Tyrael in on Sanctuary because he is the savior of Sanctuary. He had the decisive vote in the Angiris Council for the fate of Sanctuary. He ruled for the human, because he saw the sacrifice of Uldyssian (remember, he's the Archangel of Justice, so he does Justice here).
3) Tyrael could not defeat Diablo and Baal at once. However, as shown in the cinematics, he would have defeated Diablo for sure, and easily too, but not the both of them.
4) Tyrael appears in the Worldstone Chamber because he is the ONLY ONE who could do that in Sanctuary, because the Relic of the Ancients was forged for him (again, he's the savior of Sanctuary), and gave by Nihlathak to Baal.
Cheers,
UGTM
1. i know tyrael is not inarius, im just saying maybe something happened to tyrael and mephisto is using inarius and all the tyraels we see are actually inarius.
2. i think thats what blizzard wants you to think. but to be honest, the only person i didnt have suspicions about in the game was gheed, everyone else i knew was hiding something major.
3. i dunno, it seems shakey especially since diablo looked like he was having a lot of trouble with tyrael, also baal looked like he was in pretty bad shape right after he got released.
4. the fact that he needed a relic to get into mt arraet mean to me that it wasn't his essence that could get into mt. arraet, it was his form, which to me also means that the ancients could not tell who is who in their soul, but rather by looking at them. besides, i think 3 long dead barbarians should not be any trouble for an archangel, no?
i also feel like we are getting side tracked here, im just curious, do you (or anyone who wants to jump into this) think its possible that tyrael is evil?
He himself? No. From outside the story line, it would be story repetition, and very soon after one angel already fell and was evil. Doing the same thing again would be a put off in a storyline perspective. In the actual story, it is earier to assume that another Demon--Belial being the most likely, and as a way to incorporate him unlike Duriel where he was put there randomly as a guard--was the culprit deceiving us.
Even then, it would have been the Tyrael we saw in the Worldstone Chamber. Although, a Demon disguised as Tyrael would send the heroes away, but not to destroy the Worldstone later. Demons can, and already have, infested Sanctuary and can get in. The faux Tyrael would corrupt the Worldstone further and use it to allow Hell to make the Outpost, not to destroy it leaving The Angrius Council full entrance to Sanctuary.
I don't think the Tyrael that destroyed the Worldstone has to be the real Tyrael. From what we know, the 3 brothers WANTED to be slaughtered and have their soulstones destroyed, so they could return to their real forms in Hell and not be bound to the soulstones and human bodies anymore. That's why all the three let the D2 hero win. This cannot be put in question.
However, they needed entrance to Sanctuary after they were returned to Hell and the soulstones were destroyed. The destruction of the worldstone would provide that. This is also a fact that we know and cannot be put in question.
What CAN be put in question is the so-called "corruption". Maybe Baal did not do anything to the worldstone, because it wasn't possible to "corrupt" it in a way that only Hell would be able to pass by as we're suspecting. He just got there and waited for the hero to come and slay him. Belial was left behind to trick the hero into believing the soulstone was corrupted, and letting him destroy it.
This teory brings forth a plot hole: Why wouldn't Baal destroy it himself then? The only answer I can come up with is that beside him wanting to be slain, Hell wanted Sanctuary people to think all was well, so they could prepare for the coming war with Sanctuary AND gain an upper hand by not being expected and coming in full surprise - thus the 20 years that passed between D2 and D3.
I don't think the Tyrael that destroyed the Worldstone has to be the real Tyrael. From what we know, the 3 brothers WANTED to be slaughtered and have their soulstones destroyed, so they could return to their real forms in Hell and not be bound to the soulstones and human bodies anymore. That's why all the three let the D2 hero win. This cannot be put in question.Why go through the trouble of The Dark Exile to Sanctuary only to be banished back to the Burning Hells?? What they wanted was to corrupt the Soul Stones as the anchor to keep them in Sanctuary and NOT be killed off >>
However, they needed entrance to Sanctuary after they were returned to Hell and the soulstones were destroyed. The destruction of the worldstone would provide that. This is also a fact that we know and cannot be put in question.If anything, they went their in order to corrupt it and then stay in Sanctuary until the other of the Greater Evils can strengthen it as Hell's Outpost.
What CAN be put in question is the so-called "corruption". Maybe Baal did not do anything to the worldstone, because it wasn't possible to "corrupt" it in a way that only Hell would be able to pass by as we're suspecting. He just got there and waited for the hero to come and slay him. Belial was left behind to trick the hero into believing the soulstone was corrupted, and letting him destroy it.In the Belial case, that is pretty much hoe it'd happen ;)
This teory brings forth a plot hole: Why wouldn't Baal destroy it himself then? The only answer I can come up with is that beside him wanting to be slain, Hell wanted Sanctuary people to think all was well, so they could prepare for the coming war with Sanctuary AND gain an upper hand by not being expected and coming in full surprise - thus the 20 years that passed between D2 and D3.It is far easier to slaughter complacent humans than those waiting for a siege...
Why go through the trouble of The Dark Exile to Sanctuary only to be banished back to the Burning Hells?? What they wanted was to corrupt the Soul Stones as the anchor to keep them in Sanctuary and NOT be killed off >>
If anything, they went their in order to corrupt it and then stay in Sanctuary until the other of the Greater Evils can strengthen it as Hell's Outpost.
I don't know any more of The Dark Exile than what's in the game, and the details are gone from my mind, but I think it was a ruse to get the worldstone destroyed. I get this idea from the end of D1 and some comments the team made recently about the end of D2.
Let me explain it better: we finish D1 thinking we did good, but in fact we did exactly what the big D wanted. He wanted the hero's body, much more powerful than the prince's. Then we finish D2 thinking we did good, or at least the best possible, but I'm certain that I heard/read someone from the D3 team saying that we did exactly what the 3 brothers planned all along. Don't ask me for a reference though, I don't collect these things :P
And the soulstones did not exist when The Dark Exile began, did they? I don't know about this, I just always thought that they were designed to contain the brothers after they came to Sanctuary.
Another detail is that the soulstones, the worldstone and the host body all diminish the power of the prime evils. Why would they want to be bound to any of them, even corrupted? None of them enhances their power... correct me if I'm wrong, I think I'm the greatest speculator here since I didn't read the books and my memory is terrible at best :P
I'm going into another post since what I'll say know is somewhat separated from the previous discussion.
I've already talked about this in a previous thread (it went even to diii.net's front page! :P), but the page http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/world/ shows 2 demons and one angel. We were always used to one demon and one angel, facing each other. This image, besides unusual, really seems like they're conspiring together, and not opposing forces like when you have one demon and one angel. I just mention this because it has everything to do with the (original) topic and I remembered now. I just noticed also that the front page has the same left demon on the left, and the same right angel on the right. It doesn't have the middle demon though, because that's where Tyrael or whomever is.
Another thing: did you all see the new Tyrael wings already on D3's official site? I think it's too obvious a reference that he's "hot" and will turn into a demon (maybe Belial). And that's why I don't believe it, Blizzard always makes some very obvious reference to make us think it's that and then begins to change things radically so we go "oooooooooohhhh we were completely wrong!!!". The Belial theory just lost some more points for me :P
SoulSpectrum
12-12-2008, 05:43
Hmmm I actually think those are just natural angel wings. Because of the limited graphics back in the day. Also in the Knaak books (All Metzen's creations) it describes the angels as a bright and unimgainable entity for human eyes. The wings are meant to be this bright ethereal rays of light that blind any who gaze upon them.
Then again Izual fell and lost his wings so it is plausible.
Let me explain it better: we finish D1 thinking we did good, but in fact we did exactly what the big D wanted. He wanted the hero's body, much more powerful than the prince's. Then we finish D2 thinking we did good, or at least the best possible, but I'm certain that I heard/read someone from the D3 team saying that we did exactly what the 3 brothers planned all along. Don't ask me for a reference though, I don't collect these things :PThat ending to D3 is easily the biggest hook for those thinking that Tyrael's gone bad, or that we've been tricked all along. The Big 3 did indeed plan the whole thing, but they wanted to use Sanc as a new part of Hell. Human souls is some kind of powerful...thing, and whomever gains the humans wins the war, so The Dark Exile was planned to get them.
And the soulstones did not exist when The Dark Exile began, did they? I don't know about this, I just always thought that they were designed to contain the brothers after they came to Sanctuary.AFAIK, the Soulstones were made when Izual told Tyrael how to make them and after Tyrael formed the Horadrim and were then used by said Horadrim to contain the Prime Evils forever, or so it was supposed to go for the Horadrim.
I've already talked about this in a previous thread (it went even to diii.net's front page! :P), but the page http://www.blizzard.com/diablo3/world/ shows 2 demons and one angel. We were always used to one demon and one angel, facing each other. This image, besides unusual, really seems like they're conspiring together, and not opposing forces like when you have one demon and one angel. I just mention this because it has everything to do with the (original) topic and I remembered now. I just noticed also that the front page has the same left demon on the left, and the same right angel on the right. It doesn't have the middle demon though, because that's where Tyrael or whomever is.That has always genuinely interested me. No doubt it's an angel, but it's so bland. Izual, Tyrael, and Hadriel all have that exact hood =/ I can't wait to see how that plays into the story, if it's relevant at all (blue chat gem anyone?) or what. :P
Another thing: did you all see the new Tyrael wings already on D3's official site? I think it's too obvious a reference that he's "hot" and will turn into a demon (maybe Belial). And that's why I don't believe it, Blizzard always makes some very obvious reference to make us think it's that and then begins to change things radically so we go "oooooooooohhhh we were completely wrong!!!". The Belial theory just lost some more points for me :PAgain, more foreshadowing that is killing me to find out more about! I never really took it as smokey so much as it's him losing his wings. I assume that Imperius is fed up with Tyrael and the destruction of the Worldstone is the straw that broke the angel's back so to say :P He's bannished from The High Heavens and is loosing his wings (and therefore station as an Archangel??) as he is exiled to Sanctuary. I can only assume this is what happens along with the Artwork of Tyrael floating in a room and the other long image of an Archangel--Imperius I believe, Tyrael never had winged shoulders and helm, nor does he have a cross on his torso.
Very entertaining and interesting read :)
Since I really havn't focused on the story behind the Diablo series before it was a nice read.
/Magnus
bottledwater
13-12-2008, 04:48
the other thing that makes me think tyrael is evil is because he says one thing, but does another, but kind of hides the thing he does in the veil of something that is good, even though its evil. for example, the soul stones are kind of like USB drives that were empty, and the prime evils were like viruses, and their job is to use a computers processing power to do a bunch of calculations to see how to effectively take over every computer, the faster the computer (ie. the stronger the host), the better they can do their job. what tyrael did was to give the humans the empty USB drives, and told them to put the viruses on them....now this just seems like a pretty bad solution, since the soul stones clearly failed (in fact, having the virus on a thumb drive makes it easier to infect other hosts, just like the wonderer). i just think that tyrael knew the soul stones would fail, but he gave them anyway, also that picture on the website sort of does look like the 3 are conspiring, but the thing is that the angel looks like he is enslaved/embarrassed/doesn't want to because his head is down, and its not like he is just being humble...it looks too humble.
also, i have always wondered, what the hell is hadriel doing in the river of flame? he is an angel, he is hostile to ALL the demons in the place, so he should at least be fighting, i mean he is like 4 feet away from diablo...so i think hadriel is diablos homeboy, and not an angel. some things are just really suspicious....
here's my opinion.. don't know much about lore and stuff, just read around the forums.
i'll just throw it out.
it could be either Tyrael planned or wanted the Worldstone to be destroyed.
From what I have gathered, Tyrael is not welcome in Heaven anymore, he hates the demons and has grown tired of the war. He also grew very fond of the people of Sanctuary.
With the Worldstone destroyed, the inhabitants of Sanctuary could grow stronger than the angels and demons, and with the help of an archangel... anything can happen. (Maybe they'll "overthrow" heaven and hell, or whatever :P)
nicro tower
27-12-2008, 18:55
To ares: You're confusing Tyrael with Inarius, except for the part about being fond with Sanctuary. And as a member of the Angiris Council, he MUST fight the Burning Hells. I highly doubt that Tyrael is evil, but we might have to fight him, as being taken over by the Light is equally bad as being taken over by the Darkness.
To bottledwater: Angels are like that. Both angels and demons plot incessantly, but the main difference is that altough the demons may be more cunning, they usually leave a mark when they're plotting. Angels' plots are subtler and are less evident. On the point of Hadriel, I think he was just a gameplay mechanism (that didn't work btw) to prevent entry to the Chaos Sanctuary before finishing the 2 other quests.
To sectoid: Are you sure the middle creature is a demon? It looks less bestial than the demon to the left, and also, it doesn't have wings, compared to the 2 Outsiders, who both have wings. The middle creature might just be a beast or an Ancient from Sanctuary.
I personally think that Tyrael isn't evil. He is the angel of justice after all. But even if he isn't evil, it doesn't mean that he has Sanctuary's best interests to heart (or resonance). For example, he may have destroyed the Worldstone because he finally thought that Sanctuary has gone to far to save and should be purged by the Angelic Host.
With the Worldstone destroyed, Heaven and Hell can both start pouring into Sanctuary. If Blizzard intends D3 to be the ending of the series (or at least an arc), they can make that happen, and also have your character develop Nephalem/Edrym abilities, perhaps culminating with the complete shut-out of all Outsider influences in Sanctuary?
Woot longest reply I ever posted!
FrostDoombringer
29-12-2008, 07:35
To Nicro Tower: I’ll start by saying that I’m new to the DIII scene, or at least new to all the forums and such. I too have a hard time believing Tyreal to be actually evil. However it is completely possible for Tyreal to be too good. With the Worldstone destroyed and 20yrs without it’s influence, humanity may be regaining the Nephalem power they once wielded. If this was true and humanity was becoming stronger, Magi like the Dark Cultists would be posing has big a threat to the High Heavens has the Prime Evils themselves, in theory. Without the true knowledge of how to wield these powers it would be easy for the Burning Hells to coax humanity into contracts or manipulate them into giving this power to the Prime or even Lesser Evils. This new threat could outweigh the benefits of having followers of the Light with Nephalemic powers and Tyreal may have no choice but to destroy Sanctuary. This would be a scenario that would pit the players against the Archangel. While he may have been weaker then the Prime Evils before, with 20yrs in the High Heavens to recover you would be facing a Diablo Strength entity from the Heavens.
About a Rescue Tyreal Quest: I think there are two conceivable paths to take with a rescue Tyreal Quest. At the beginning of Act IV Tyreal says that he is losing his powers so he cannot fight Diablo. He says it is up to the heroes to save Sanctuary. In the ending Cinematic we see Tyreal conjure up a powerful spell to destroy the corrupted Worldstone. This would lead one to belive that maybe he used up the rest of his remaining power in doing so. He may have had to go back to High Heavens to recover or he may have been summoned there to take responsibility for what happened in Sanctuary. This would mean an Assault on the High Heavens to save Tyreal. I for one would love to see the warriors of Light and square off with the ones that didn't think humanity should be saved. On the other hand Tyreal may have been captured or otherwise subdued by the Burning Hells. He would have had no power to stop them and maybe he would not have had the strength to resist the corruption. Izul looked pretty corrupted to me when I fought him. I know Izul was willing but if Tyreal was unable to resist its possible he may have started to turn. What starts out has a rescue becomes an assassination. Although if Blizzard were to go this route I believe they would have Tyreal regain his Free Will and help the Heros in the end. Perhaps even sacraficing himself for Sanctuary.
To sectoid: Are you sure the middle creature is a demon? It looks less bestial than the demon to the left, and also, it doesn't have wings, compared to the 2 Outsiders, who both have wings. The middle creature might just be a beast or an Ancient from Sanctuary.
To me he seems pretty evil, with the horns and sharped teeth... but nice finding on the lack of wings, I didn't see that. It may really be a representation of Sanctuary, although it would be a strange one. But I still find the theory of the Act IV / V Tyrael being in fact Belial more probable (not too much, though). Tyrael's burning wings (as if they were vanishing), this image with the middle "devil" that also appears on the front page with Tyrael in its place, the fall of Tyrael on Act II (maybe he fell on The Dark Abyss?), etc...
nicro tower
01-01-2009, 03:57
To me he seems pretty evil, with the horns and sharped teeth... but nice finding on the lack of wings, I didn't see that. It may really be a representation of Sanctuary, although it would be a strange one. But I still find the theory of the Act IV / V Tyrael being in fact Belial more probable (not too much, though). Tyrael's burning wings (as if they were vanishing), this image with the middle "devil" that also appears on the front page with Tyrael in its place, the fall of Tyrael on Act II (maybe he fell on The Dark Abyss?), etc...
I'm of the opinion that the middle creature is a corrupted version of one of Sanctuary's creatures, but it may well be some other demon. And in Act 2 he only falls into some lava in the Horadric tomb. I would think that the Horadrim were capable enough to make the tomb where they sealed Baal in impervious to Outsider intervention (aka portals from Heaven/Hell). Also, angels wings are supposed to look fiery. In the Sin War trilogy, whenever Inarius transforms into his "angel form", it is accompanied by some description of holy/blazing fires and an extremely bright light.
@FrostDoombringer: The Angiris Council are all slaves to their cause, in a sense. Tyrael even states that while the angels want to take a rest from the eternal war with Hell, they must fight on because it is their duty. Tyrael only protects the inhabitants of Sanctuary because he believes in the inherent good nature of humans (eg. Udylissan or however you spell his name sacrifices himself to protect Sanctuary from blowing up, not because it was his duty, but because he cared.). However, if Tyrael thinks that humanity is to evil to save, then his "free will" might consist of bringing "justice" to Sanctuary.
Also, regarding Tyrael's power, I think the members of the Angiris Council have powers on par with the Three. When Inarius made his pact with Diablo, both of them were affected by the other, and Inarius has about the strength of members of the Angiris Council. Also, I think the reason why Tyrael wouldn't have been able to kill diablo is that he is weakened in Hell.
Once there you see Tyrael broken in pieces like a little girl getting her pony tail stuck in a lawn mower.
omg this made my day...
Username
03-02-2009, 00:41
I also hope he stays good... Tyrael is by far my favourite character in the series and won't enjoy that "twist"... I would actually love to read a book where Tyrael takes the leading role...
Great idea about Tyrael being imprisoned! Wouldn't that be an awesome quest, not unlike the rescue of Cain in DII...Not that I enjoy thinking about killing angels :thumbsdown: but still an awesome quest...
And I'm glad that someone still wants to keep some Goodness in the Diablo Universe... Keep it true Brother...
That would be the most PWNariffic quest ever now i hope tyrael is imprisoned
Bladewind
03-02-2009, 03:35
Tyrael is already considered a "fallen" angel because he actively intervene to assist humans. In eyes of High Heaven, he has already Fallen. Also it is not like he wasn't imprisoned before.
Remember tal rasha ? :p
If this happens (Evil Tyrael), I think I'll just complete the game then headbutt the CD until it cracks to never play it again, I liked the lore so much in Diablo I and II but if things like that happen just to please kids who like people becoming evil I swear I will deny my way to live as a no-life (when DIII will be out I plan on doing nothing else) and get a life. Yes.
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