Simple Solution to PKing

[Edairu]

To let players feel safe from PKers in questing games (especially Hardcore) all Blizzard has to do allow an "Accept Hostility" button or something similar.
For Example:
Player A and B are questing at level 10. Player C who is level 80 joins the game and immediately hostiles Player A, as soon as this happens Player A has to choice to either: "Accept Hostility" from Player C or: "Deny Hostility" from Player C. If Player A is too busy to respond right away, the Hostility is automatically denied, and Player C is unable to attack Player A whatsoever until he accepts the hostility.

This way, even without adding a level restriction to your games, there's no way you can be killed without allowing it to happen. So for Hardcore-only players, this lets them be safe in public games with friends without having to worry about PKers ruining the fun.

Feel free to add any suggestions or comments. :thumbup:

[teh_Thrasher]

sure sure sounds kind of good but then u cant really pk cause people will just not agree to the hostility. =[

taking player killing out of the game is upsetting :( sounds like the game is getting kind of touchy feely

[Edairu]

sure sure sounds kind of good but then u cant really pk cause people will just not agree to the hostility. =[


Yeah, that's the point. I know I'm probably the minority but I don't see the fun in joining a public tristram run (or the like) HC game as a level 80+ char then proceeding to PK a bunch of new level 9-15 characters. It's even worse when trying to do any public games in Nightmare at level 40ish, because without fail a PKer will eventually join and attempt to slaughter you for ****s and giggles.

[Anathema]

maybe there needs to be a level restriction for hostility. You can only hostile someone 10 levels lower than you, for example. If someone wants to run around killing people, thats fine and dandy, but lets make it somewhat fair.

lower levels an hostile anyone higher than them though, since it's great fun killing level 80s with a level 40..necromancer. :jig:

[Gigashadow]

It's not going to fix the issue due to rigid PvP, come on...

[Pig Vomit]

#1 reason I walked away from D2 over a year ago. Never wanting to play public HC because some p.rick want's to enhance his gaming experience by ruining mine. PKs only care about "the hunt". There is no competition involved. Why do you think people came up with tppk progs? If you can't get your kill legitimately, cheat.

There should be a place for all types of gamers. Carebears, duelers, and d.ickheads. I obviously fall into the first category since I'd rather have fun cooperating with someone rather than laughing at them when they have no clue wtf just happened.

The only way I'd ever purchase and therefore spend anytime playing D3 online is if they fix tppk & all variations for all time.

I know Blizzard doesn't give a fuK. So I'm forced to abandon a game I once enjoyed very much.

[Apocalypse]

maybe it is just me but, is not the easiest solution to have servers where pvp is allowed and servers where you can't go hostile no matter what? both servers could still allow for pvp games you just would be unable to go hostile on the one server

[Gigashadow]

Yeah... if DIII is big enough, that wouldn't really cause any division issues - PvP servers work fine in WoW.

[Athanasios]

I just hope they dont turn D3 into some touchy-feely kinda game. Most people played D2 because of two reasons, the loot and the violence. Granted, something needs to be done about the Pvp system but I hope they keep the Diablo "egde" that keeps players always coming back for more...

[Gigashadow]

I just hope they dont turn D3 into some touchy-feely kinda game.Absence of a hostility does not make a game "touchy-feely" (what the h-ell does that mean, anyway?). It just makes it a different kind of game.

Most people played D2 because of...I'm sorry, have you collected the census of all SP and MP players of DII from years 1998 to present day and categorized them by why they played DII? Have you checked them all with lie detectors?

the loot and the violence.Plenty of games have loot and plenty of them have violence. I don't see why you need DII to have any of those. They are certainly not what makes DII unique.

the Diablo "egde" that keeps players always coming back for more...Have you collected a census? No? Be quiet then. And from now on, post "that keeps ME coming back for more". Stop speaking for other people like some self-centered narcissist. It's really getting annoying. Placing yourself above others because you like to play a VIDEO GAME a certain way... (rofl) If you really want to get back to some medieval hardcore style of a world, you can go join the US military and visit Iraq. Leave people who don't need that alone.

[teh_Thrasher]

lol now now gigashadow calm down.

and yeah without some sort of pvp aspect i feel the game would be "touchy feely" as well. which basically means there would be no conflict there would be competition. there being a ladder wouldnt mean much at all, just who has the most time to grind on monsters. and not who owns the most.

multiple servers would split up the players =\ not the best thing IMO.


frankly i still want there to be a player killing system, the only problem i had with d2 was the hackers using a TPPK program to do the killing that was unfair. slaughtering low levels is pretty lame too, so a level req to hostile could be useful...

[wizAdept]

Unfortunately as it stands now, blizzard is attempting to remove griefing from d3. Chances are there will be no hostile option and pvp will be limited to arenas. I really hope they change their minds on this but this is how it stands now. =\


I really dislike all the carebears in this thread talking about the "solution" to pking. The solution imho it to grow some balls and fight back or leave the pub game and play with friends. tppking cheats and other abuses were the problem in d2, not the threat of pk itself.

Personally I enjoy d2 partially due to it's dark corrupted world feel, you are a few adventurers against the armies of hell, its a world on the brink of destruction, do you expect everyone you meet on your adventure in such a place to be your friend?
Don't get me wrong.. d3 looks awesome but.. it does feel like its going to be missing something without the freedom to hostile players. Just my opinion.

[Gigashadow]

lol now now gigashadow calm down.Maybe people should stop posting insults, then? Like this, you know:
I really dislike all the carebears in this thread talking about the "solution" to pking. The solution imho it to grow some balls and fight back or leave the pub game and play with friends.You just CANT say that "I like PK", you HAVE to say "Oh, some people out there are too scared to play the video game the same way I want to play it, so I'm going to pretend I'm somehow better than them by some crooked logic"
Srsly, this is battle.net attitude that doesn't belong here. It belongs in kindergarden.

which basically means there would be no conflict there would be competition.Um, nobody said they're removing PVP... and, no, PK is not conflict nor competition.

multiple servers would split up the players =\ not the best thing IMO.One server will piss of a tons of players. Not the best thing IMO.

[Athanasios]

Placing yourself above others because you like to play a VIDEO GAME a certain way...

wow ok, someone had a bad day. You need to relax just a wee bit. I never placed myself above anyone in anyway.

you can go join the US military and visit Iraq

How does Iraq and the U.S military have anything to do with what i said? The war in Iraq is far from medieval...

Absence of a hostility does not make a game "touchy-feely" (what the h-ell does that mean, anyway?). It just makes it a different kind of game.

Im not sure why what I said made you blow your top like that, but you need to get your head out of the clouds and come back to reallity. I never said anything was wrong with getting rid of hostility. I just don't think most people want "a different kinda game"

Oh wait, sorry, maybe i should go collect a census befor i make that statement...

[mackemradge]

Big can of worms on this one guys but lets keep it respectful.

Personally I don't have a problem with PK. I do have a problem with TPPK which I feel is cowardly and unfair, but life isn't fair either is it?

For example, a player enters my trade game and spams 'duel me noob' etc, I say 'Not with my mule thx'. He hostiles and continues to spam, I leave, come back with a higher level character and duel. I may win, I may lose, who cares but its my choice to step outside and have a go. No problem there.

Second example is I'm levelling a new build, going through Durance 1 with a group of similiar low levels who have spent the last half hour or whatever going the long way around Act III. A high level comes in, parties up offering Durance II WP etc. Most go to his WP and subsequently get wiped out by a bugged out Hammerdin, who then tele's to every boss in the game, spoiling it for all the low levels who were just having a laugh. I do have a problem with this and believe that it should not be allowed to happen in D3.

I like the idea of mutual hostility or 'no hostility outside arena'. I think that would stop the TPPK and still leave the way open for players to duel. The hunters out there may not like it but without a vote who can say how the majority play the game and what they want from it.

As for 'grow some balls and fight back' I like it, I do have some balls (in the wife's handbag of course) and do fight back on occasion, but I want it to be my choice and not the choice of a party killer with bugged gear.

[Uncle_Mike]

I really dislike all the carebears in this thread talking about the "solution" to pking. The solution imho it to grow some balls and fight back or leave the pub game and play with friends. tppking cheats and other abuses were the problem in d2, not the threat of pk itself.

That's a PvP take on things, i know people who have always refused to duel (even private fun pvm vs pvm char games) and simply enjoy following the storyline, questing, mfing etc. and no mutual hostility might ruin the experience for them.

I'm not really sure if this entire debate is that much of an issue from the softcore point of view. I always enjoyed the hostility button and liked it when someone was trying to PK a diarun or a baalrun. And i can't say that happened often enough to annoy me. The current system does seem to ruin the d2 experience for casual HC players though since the realms are infested with hacks.

I'm also quite sure that this issue can be discussed in civil and calm manner guys - it's just a computer game :)

[Apocalypse]

like i said before, pvp has a place and when done right can be fun, but it should never be forced on others at all. you can say it was not forced on people in d2 but having to keep leaving games is not what people paid for. i still think pvp servers and non pvp servers (both allowing pvp arena type games) is the best way to go

[Gigashadow]

I am personally talking about both SC, HC, and whatever mode.

People have different views on hostility. That's fine. Just don't call people who don't like hostility "carebears", "cowards", or people who "need to grow some balls". This is nothing but an opinionated issue. Just don't say that most people like it. It's really hard to judge how many people truly like it without actually collecting statistics (no kidding). Yeah, all your friends love PK. Well, they are your friends, after all.

I love open PvP MMORPG servers myself. I just don't like PvP in Diablo because I think it's not that kind of game. And MMORPG's let me choose. Diablo does not. The annoyance you may feel at the removal of PK is the same annoyance that we, people who dislike PK, feel when people started chasing after us for no reason while we are killing monsters.

Maybe I need to calm down? Hey, if I saw this once a month... I see it every day. Every day some idiot calls someone who doesn't like hostility in DII a "carebear" or other condescending term. Every day someone makes comments like "The DII community thinks..." or "most people will agree" or "most people on this forum" and I can go on here. I don't like it when people speak for other people, especially on an unresolved issue like this, especially when a FOR-PROFIT company, Blizzard, disagrees that PK is what DIII needs.

[Damnatorius]

*agrees fully with Giga

[Pig Vomit]

Good conversation in this thread. Here's a gameplay option:

If Blizz could somehow incorportate this idea into the game it would go far towards satisfying the 3 main gamers in the Diablo world, those being "coop" "pvpers" and "pks". The game world should be split into 4 zones basically: town, pve, pvp, and ffa.

Town areas are self explanatory.

"Co-op" would be strictly pve areas with the hostile option disabled. So now us carebears have areas where we can play the game the way we prefer by cooperating & helping one another.

"PvP" areas would be zones devoid of any of the games monsters. Desert wastelands or whatever. Hostile would then have to be clicked by both players, with perhaps a 3 to 5 second delay. In these areas people could team pvp but the set up might be slowed just a tad since the delay would have to fire off for all who hostile against one another.

"FFA"-you guessed it. Free For All. These areas would have automatic hostility towards any people in the zone. PKs would love this area since they would have the opportunity to play their sneak attack style on people. Blizz could incorporate certain rewards specific to these zones only. People brave enough to run the gauntlet of PKs to get at the goods would be handsomely rewarded. The PKs would have some means of salvaging their preferred play style.

So there's the idea in a nutshell. Obviously I could get into specifics but I didn't want to bother with it if the idea didn't carry any weight.

[Gigashadow]

Thing is, PK'ers want to attack those who do not want to be PK'ed, e.g., people who'd go to the coop section...

[Pig Vomit]

I know all about & understand tppks...which is pretty much what they all became since they gave up on wppk & used the tppk hack. They're the reason I quit playing D2 since I played HC exclusively.

The whole point of my suggestion was to still have the PK element but make it so people have a choice whether to subject themselves to it.

Blizz definately shouldn't eliminate pvp from the game since that's pretty much considered "end game" or "premier" game content. A single barbarian in a pve setting can lay waste to hordes of critters but could be dropped by a single enemy, especially when that single enemy is controlled by a human being & not computer AI.

Yes people always died in pve as well but I'm pretty sure most who read my words know what I'm getting at.

[djinnii]

the single and only thing that prevents the old D2 system from working perfectly is the TPPK script kiddies who developped the ability to instakill people.... besides that it was flawless in my opinion.

I think that the line between oldschool PKers and the TPPK crowd has become too blurred which is sad. I really hope that blizzard can see the distinction and the merits of keeping a fair open hostile environment available.

[Damnatorius]

All types of PKing (with or without hacks) were just annoying. They just disrupt the gameplay. Whether you're questing, exping or whatever else, you are in the game for that purpose. As soon as somebody starts PKing, you have to focus on that instead of what you were in the game for (and presumably preferred focusing on). Quite often it ended up in people leaving, and considering the time it took to find a decent game where people were playing cooperatively and efficiently (and hopefully also having a fun chat in the meantime), that was very annoying indeed.

I play softcore, so I don't mind dying, I just mind the disruption. Especially since it could take hours to find a game with the people / characters / quests available / etc. that was just perfect.

[Tejota]

To let players feel safe from PKers in questing games (especially Hardcore) all Blizzard has to do allow an "Accept Hostility" button or something similar.
For Example:
Player A and B are questing at level 10. Player C who is level 80 joins the game and immediately hostiles Player A, as soon as this happens Player A has to choice to either: "Accept Hostility" from Player C or: "Deny Hostility" from Player C. If Player A is too busy to respond right away, the Hostility is automatically denied, and Player C is unable to attack Player A whatsoever until he accepts the hostility.

This way, even without adding a level restriction to your games, there's no way you can be killed without allowing it to happen. So for Hardcore-only players, this lets them be safe in public games with friends without having to worry about PKers ruining the fun.

Feel free to add any suggestions or comments. :thumbup:

Great idea! But I think it would end up all problems if you could set that when creating the game, like, you put the game name, password or not, set the game to have hostility ON or OFF and creates the game. Something like that.

[teh_Thrasher]

All types of PKing (with or without hacks) were just annoying. They just disrupt the gameplay. Whether you're questing, exping or whatever else, you are in the game for that purpose. As soon as somebody starts PKing, you have to focus on that instead of what you were in the game for (and presumably preferred focusing on). Quite often it ended up in people leaving, and considering the time it took to find a decent game where people were playing cooperatively and efficiently (and hopefully also having a fun chat in the meantime), that was very annoying indeed.

I play softcore, so I don't mind dying, I just mind the disruption. Especially since it could take hours to find a game with the people / characters / quests available / etc. that was just perfect.

if u have found a good party, whisper them and make a private game when the pk comes in. problem solved.

i liked pking, i never really did the pking much but when i did it was fun. it was... exhilerating. really got the blood pumping. and being hunted was fun too. specially in a good party and u werent just some defenceless little faun and could fight back against the hunter :) those were always the best.

[Gigashadow]

...there we go again...

[teh_Thrasher]

lol

i read pig vomits previous post and it gave me an idea. like an area where there is the ability to PK, like a higher level of the game. high risk, high reward (cause of the possibility of being pked)

[cmc]

lol

i read pig vomits previous post and it gave me an idea. like an area where there is the ability to PK, like a higher level of the game. high risk, high reward (cause of the possibility of being pked)

The mentality of a PK is not to attack characters that present a challenge though, rather lower level characters and those that dont have characters specifically built for PKing, thus are always at a disadvantage. This is not high risk. High risk is against PK builds of higher or equal level.. so why don't you have consensual duels with them.. probably afraid :coffee:

[teh_Thrasher]

ur still thinking in diablo 2 terms CMC.
Starting over in diablo 3 will take on a new meaning for PKing, well if there would be any (doubtful) so u shouldnt really compare the 2

[Vagrant Lustoid]

PKing is just annoying for the most part. There's no challenge in killing off lvl10-20 characters when you're 80+ or whatever. So the only reason to do it is purely for disruption and aggravation. And if the only way you can get your kicks is by feeding on the distress and frustration of other players then you're clearly not socially suited for interactive gaming of any sort.

I mean, I understand shaudenfreude, taking pleasure in the pain of others, but that's generally used to refer to when that pain comes accidentally or through the person's own actions. PKing is neither of those, and is simply emotional and mental sadism.

I'm not completely against PK, just PK that is completely unwanted by the hunted. If there are split servers for hostile/non-hostile, that I'm fine with. But you just know that making any sort of character on a server that allows hostility means you'll be getting killed off as soon as you're Lvl10+ (if such a restriction is kept) and so the only way to build up to such a level that you yourself could start PKing in any reasonable amount of time would be to cheat somehow. Which is sad in and of itself.

[teh_Thrasher]

And if the only way you can get your kicks is by feeding on the distress and frustration of other players then you're clearly not socially suited for interactive gaming of any sort.


lol or are you?

the pkers out there could easily say the same thing about people that dont like any kind of play killing.
its in human nature to be competitive. some just arent capable of taking on the big game and stick with prowling for noobies. ull have that in most games not just Diablo.

and real life lawls. example... nerd hitting on hot chick. jock comes over and steals the conversation and the girl. he just "Owned" the nerd. :point:

and then that nerd would probably go home and own some noobies because he is sexually frustrated :rolf:

[Vagrant Lustoid]

However, the jock gains something in such a situation, the girl. PKers gain nothing but sadistic amusement, ever. And if the jerk didn't actually want her and just did it to take her from the nerd, I'm pretty sure most people would agree that he's simply a jerk. Besides, in real life you can't stop things like that happening, but Blizzard has a chance here. And I'm sorry, but your line about human nature being competitive is utter bull. If PKers wanted to be competitive, they'd PvP, not hunt Lvl 10-20 players who they can kill in a single hit.

And as I said, the problem with building up any characters on a server devoted to PKers will arise, since you'll be constantly interrupted. Especially annoying if that EXP Bonus with consecutive monster kills is integrated.

[teh_Thrasher]

"If PKers wanted to be competitive, they'd PvP, not hunt Lvl 10-20 players who they can kill in a single hit. "

a hunter hunts and shoots an unarmed defenseless deer from hundreds of yards away. wheres the sportsmanship there? thats the exact same situation. maybe the pkers took a thing or 2 from the real world ;)

i actually havent seen too many ppl go for people that low lvl, ive been in some where really *** builds just go for unprepared pubbies. like there was this one FOH pally that came in and constantly ruined games everyday. shooting from mad far offscreen. and he was only 75 killing 50s+. it all depends on the person doing the hunting.

BUT since there wont be any waypoints i dont see any way to really keeping PKing in the game =[

[Bladewind]

Instead of removing PK all together, just make it rewarding to kill a pker. Like making him lose an item if he dies etc. Also a negative karma like thingy that automatically makes him hostile to any game room he joins, the auto hostility can only be removed by like killing X number of mobs etc.

Personally I never had a problem with PKers, I just log out and remake a new game if need be. Slightly disruptive ? Maybe but not to the levels you people tend to exaggerate.

[PFSS]

Whenever I leveled a character I would give them my full LLD gear + charms to help them along.

I found it often made for a fun time when some lame mf toon joined the game to PK a bunch of leveling characters.

[Athanasios]

Instead of removing PK all together, just make it rewarding to kill a pker. Like making him lose an item if he dies etc. Also a negative karma like thingy that automatically makes him hostile to any game room he joins, the auto hostility can only be removed by like killing X number of mobs etc.

Personally I never had a problem with PKers, I just log out and remake a new game if need be. Slightly disruptive ? Maybe but not to the levels you people tend to exaggerate.

Idk about the first part, but i couldnt agree more on the second. Some people get so passionatly angry and make a big fuss about something thats not too big a deal. If getting pk'd by some virtual bully hurts your feelings then put a level cap on the bloody game. If your lvl 25, make the cap 30 or something, that way higher level players wont bust your chopppps or trash your dance party. If you catch my drift...

[teh_Thrasher]

i concur with Athanasios... the game options are there for a reason. use them if u cant handle the real world of gaming bullies.
i think the people are just sick of the TPPK hacker scum. theres hardly ever a case of real pking... and to remove it totally from the game is a mistake.

[Matt]

This way, even without adding a level restriction to your games, there's no way you can be killed without allowing it to happen. So for Hardcore-only players, this lets them be safe in public games with friends without having to worry about PKers ruining the fun.

Since when has having 'no way you can be killed without allowing it to happen' been the point of hardcore? The entire reason hardcore is fun is because there's a risk of dying at all times.

It's TPPK that needs to be fixed, not PKing; there's a world of difference.

-Matt

[The Lord of Darkness]

I have no problem with pking, I don't engage in it, but its not a big deal to me. However, it should be limited. I would set it up for like difficulty levels. Normal: No Pking or PvP at all. Nightmare: PvP would be be enabled in a limited capacity like going hostile in towns.
Hell: Hell unleashed, a free for all where you don't have to be in town to go hostile. Enter at your own risk. That could also slow down rushing as well.

[sorcees]

PK is no issue for Diablo, its a part of it, esspecially in HC, that is what i play all of the time, without MH or chicken proggies, there you get a real thrill.
When you die, you start all over again, get the fun and thrills again.
The only issue i have are all the hacks and cheat proggies, TPPK and such things.
I have no problem with hot TP and bad players, that is just a part of the game and the very dark feeling of Diablo that i like so much.

So i hope they make it really hack, bug and dupe free!!!

[Raggnarokh]

There is a difference in what means PVP and what means PK that most of ppl seems to ignore
-Pvp : Player Vs Player - ppl here agrees to fight each other
-Pk : Player Killing - One player kills another without "permision" (dont know if is the correct spelling)

I enjoy playing PVP games ( such as DAOC and whatever ) but i HATE PK games (such as tibia). Why?
I belive Pks ALLWAYS gank lowbie characters (or at least in every game i tryed)...

Humans arent competitive by default, that is only a capitalist idea... we trend to be more social... more coop

I hope my poor english can be readable :)

have a nice day =)

[Rancors]

pk is for those who just want to look for trouble. like trolling on the board basically.

grief much?

[Raging_Zealot]

Instead of removing PK all together, just make it rewarding to kill a pker. Like making him lose an item if he dies etc. Also a negative karma like thingy that automatically makes him hostile to any game room he joins, the auto hostility can only be removed by like killing X number of mobs etc.

Personally I never had a problem with PKers, I just log out and remake a new game if need be. Slightly disruptive ? Maybe but not to the levels you people tend to exaggerate.

This is close to how the free online MMO Perfect World works. When you attack another player, your name (which is usually white) goes pink and then red if you continue to attack/kill another player. When someone's name is pink/red, if they die, they have a large chance to drop items. If someone's name is white, they generally do not drop an item upon death. (Technically in Perfect World, even deaths from PvM you still have a very small chance to drop an item, but it is very very small with a white name). In Perfect World, there really isn't much of a death penalty though, if you die by another player you don't lose experience, so if your name is white (you didn't attack back) and you die, you likely won't lose items, you don't lose experience, but you still have the annoyance of having to resurrect in town. Depending on what the devs end up with death penalty wise for Diablo III, this might not work for Diablo III as well.

Perfect World (and I assume other online RPGs) also has separate servers, one allows people to attack anyone over level 30 at any time, the others only allow mutually agreed PvP. A somewhat similar system might be able to be incorporated into Diablo III. Separate servers has the downside of dividing players, but it is fairly effective at pleasing a larger amount of people. Those that join the "PvP" server, have the ability to be attacked and attack anyone of appropriate level at any time (minus safe zones/town of course), those who are on a regular server still can only be attacked when participating in consensual duels.

[Stile]

If PKing is supposed to be "allowed", then I think it should be an additional button.

The normal Hostility button can be used to go hostile only if accepted by the other player.

The new PK button can be used to attempt to enter a hostile mode without acceptance from the other player. You would click this button and one of two random things happen: you either go hostile with the other player, or you lose a random amount of EXP (1-5 levels?) and are automatically kicked out of that game instance.

How 'random' the random parts are can be based on many things:
-level difference
-gear on PKer
-number of previous successful PK-mode Hostilities in the last xxx amount of time

This way there's no removal of the "sneak attack" for the PKer... if successful.
And there's also a bit of bravery required to attempt PKing in the first place.

If PKer's do not think this idea is fair, perhaps it is them who need to "grow a pair of balls."

[alloronan]

a hunter hunts and shoots an unarmed defenseless deer from hundreds of yards away. wheres the sportsmanship there?

I think that's kinda the point. It's not exactly sportsmanlike in either case, is it? For all your talk of the thrill of the hunt and all that, I fail to see how it's exciting to hunt down and kill another player who has about the same challenge for you as the monsters in the game. I have NEVER seen a pk attack other high levels- I've only ever seen high levels pvp, not pking. The only difference that I can see, then, is that you know the player character has a human player on the other end that you're hurting. Vagrant Lustoid is correct in his assessment of the motivation for pk- you enjoy hurting other people. If that wasn't true, then why precisely is hunting down and killing monsters not as satisfying?

I really think a system whereby people can choose whether or not to accept hostile would be excellent- it would certainly provide a poll of sorts on whether or not people do want to be pk'd. Somehow, I suspect that you'd find they don't want to be, but we'll see, if a system like that is ever implemented.

[made of hate]

sure sure sounds kind of good but then u cant really pk cause people will just not agree to the hostility. =[

taking player killing out of the game is upsetting :( sounds like the game is getting kind of touchy feely

agreed, pking chaos runs is always fun when you has nothing better to do... you can make a decent amount of gold.. but at the same time being pked sucks..but at the same time its kinda fun.. in an adrenaline rush sort of way... its not like dying actually does nething neway (i lost xp oh noes!!!) i guess i support virtual darwinism is this circumstance..
ya...neways ya keep it metal

[KnS]

there is no solution to PK because its not a problum.
My experience in HC was made was more exciting by Pkers .
Taking it out of the game would be removing one of the games funnest activities for many players.

[alloronan]

Taking it out of the game would be removing one of the games funnest activities for many players.
Taking it out would also make it a lot more fun for others. You can't argue that everyone enjoys being pk'd without exception. An accept hostility feature leaves it open for those such as yourself to enjoy being pk'd, while those who do not enjoy it can play their game in peace.

[Valmy]

Taking it out would also make it a lot more fun for others. You can't argue that everyone enjoys being pk'd without exception. An accept hostility feature leaves it open for those such as yourself to enjoy being pk'd, while those who do not enjoy it can play their game in peace.

Absolutely true. If someone wants to be funny or excited about PKs, just accept the hostility and run for your life. If not, don't do it.
As you said, easy heh.


FOrtunately, Diablo III looks built all about cooperation.

[Lehetetlen]

I've read a few threads about this, and everytime it's about that PKers and Griefers are upset because in D2 they were able to "force" their playstlye on others, and as far as we know in D3 it's the other way around.

[Edairu]

I've read a few threads about this, and everytime it's about that PKers and Griefers are upset because in D2 they were able to "force" their playstlye on others, and as far as we know in D3 it's the other way around.

As it should be, you can't "undo" a death resulting from a TPPK or the like. You can however accept hostility without losing anything, except for maybe 2 seconds while you press "P" and hit Accept.

[PKCharum]

sorry, but.. is hardcore Pking still an issue, after all these years?
You'd think by now players will grow a brain and avoid getting Pk'd.
You can portal to town, you can hide, you can run, you can leave game.. you can do soo many things and still people get PK'd... sorry, but you're just dumb or cocky if you get Pk'd. No excuses.
I think they will finally take away the non-consensual hostility, so no worries anyway.. the wimps finally succeeded in taking away a great source of fun for countless players, including me =/

I've read a few threads about this, and everytime it's about that PKers and Griefers are upset because in D2 they were able to "force" their playstlye on others, and as far as we know in D3 it's the other way around.

Maybe people who got Pk'd in D2 can now breathe easier because Blizz made the game less challenging without PKs in D3?
Nothing like a less challenging game to keep the blood pumping! Now you only have to deal with your mindless and repetitive hunting for items without those pesky PKs who just make it tougher on you...
At least personally, I didn't aim at forcing my play style on anyone. I PK'd because it was fun for me, and way more challenging than mindless killing a random AI mob.

[jhtvman]

How can any of you possibly argue against a system that prevents those who don't want to be PKed from getting PKed? Diablo 2's hostility system is broken. Any asshat can join a pub game and start killing people who were just trying to quest/lvl. That shouldn't be allowed. A system where someone has to accept your hostility before you can try to kill them is without a doubt the best way to handle D2's PK problem.

[Elyxthaxzus]

sorry, but.. is hardcore Pking still an issue, after all these years?
You'd think by now players will grow a brain and avoid getting Pk'd.
You can portal to town, you can hide, you can run, you can leave game.. you can do soo many things and still people get PK'd... sorry, but you're just dumb or cocky if you get Pk'd. No excuses.
I think they will finally take away the non-consensual hostility, so no worries anyway.. the wimps finally succeeded in taking away a great source of fun for countless players, including me =/

Actually, no. PK'ing isn't an issue, but hack Pk'ing is. And most often, people lump the two together unfortunately. I Have never had an issue with PK'ers, but then again, the ratio of real PK'ers to hack noob TPPK'ers was about 15:1 in my experience in D2 (I've been playing since mid 90's).

and you don;t help your cause by referring to people who disagree with non-consensual PK'ing by referring to them as 'wimps'. all you do is categorize yourself as the same. At least folks like teh_thrasher have the decency to understand that other people may not agree with him on his stance, and be able to express his opinion without slander. I suggest you grow up and do the same. this thread was getting along pretty well without the drama, let's keep it that way :)

Personally, i never had an issue with PK'ers , Softcore or Hardcore. they put allot of work into building their low level toons to compete with other toons of similar level and win. I've even had friends online who did it, and they gave and received as well (there's nothing a hunter respects more then a target who turns the table on them, and i saw it more then folks would think. HC has allot of good players who don't PK)

But as i said before, the ratio of decent PK'ers to TPPK'ers was very small...I rarely saw a decent PK'er, but i saw the TP zon's all the time, as well as druids, sorcs, druids (distinctly remember one druid who was horrible, lvl 80+ and loved to hop into normal baal runs and kill everyone in HC...the type of kid id love to slap around if it wasn't illegal to hit minorities). Did i mention druids?

I prefer to refer to decent PK'ers as 'hunters'. I have no issues with that, and perhaps Blizz will allow aspects of that in the game for people to enjoy. But they are definitely going to work to eliminate griefing and unfair PK'ing, because they know that the bulk of the populace (including most decent hunters), disagree with this childish behavior.

In that vein, many of the ides in this thread are great, and i'd support most of them in one form or another. My favorite is the "areas" with safety zones, PvP free, consensual, and free for all. option B IMO is simply allow the option when creating a game to make hostility consensual or non-consensual.

[SeCKSEgai]

My biggest qualm with pk is the fact that some people are totally against any form of pvp for whatever their reason. Since the game is pvm in nature, expecting everyone who plays to be able to contend with pvp aspects isn't fair to those players.

I pvp in just about every game I play, but I've met quite a few folks that had absolutely no desire whatsoever to partake in any form of pvp. Even though I haven't played wow in years, I do like the fact that you could stay away from pvp on pvm servers, and if you truly desired pvp all the time you could choose to play on a pvp server. In that case, pvmers make their choice and if they choose to pvp they do so willingly, where as the dedicated pvpers have their own areas.

[NASE]

How can any of you possibly argue against a system that prevents those who don't want to be PKed from getting PKed?

Because it's part of the game. In Diablo I, you didn't even have to be in town IIRC. And because it's a way to secure your ladder position, just kill those that are close to you.


diablo II isn't always fun. Just the other day, a friend of mine was playing on my computer and eventhough he got frustrated, he's probably going to buy the game - or keep playing on my computer.
It just is.

[SeCKSEgai]

If you pk you would obviously argue against a system that would prevent it, I'd say that's enough reason for someone.

However, I would prefer that pvp not be forced upon the player as some people strictly stick to pvm. I think they're missing out, but that's the gameplay experience they desire, and I feel they're entitled to have it.

[teh_Thrasher]

pfft why dont u go play single player then if u dont want online interactions. not everyone is a nice person. there are jerks in the world. u cant filter the world! if someone comes in and hostiles u just dont go near them, if they get in range, just leave the game. big whoop its not that hard to get back to where u were.

Low level vs low/mid level pking was/IS the best pking.
it just doesnt get better than cramming as much health/dmg into a low level character and just go about wrecking some pvm'rs if u qq about being pkd, u probably havent ever done it and just dont know the exquisite rush of it.


oh and by the way... u dont seriously think an agree to hostility button would work do u? like seriously? no one would use it! like they would all cry that the other persons got better gear and that they wont fight. sounds like a big qq fest.

and seriously there arent that many Pkers out there so u dont really have anything to worry about children. all HC games are private now anyways so u can still play like that and not worry. the only annoying thing is pkers that follow u from game to game haha thats the worse :P

oh.. keep pk in the game.

[jhtvman]

Because it's part of the game. In Diablo I, you didn't even have to be in town IIRC. And because it's a way to secure your ladder position, just kill those that are close to you.
Getting killed because of lag spikes is also part of the game, but that doesn't make it okay. I never played Diablo 1, and I've only been playing Diablo 2 since late last year. When I first saw how the hostility system was set up, I thought it was some kind of bad joke. I thought to myself, this is seriously how it works? Some random jackass can start ruining games for no other reason than he's a worthless griefer?

Even playing SC Ladder, I've been in pub games trying to level up lower level characters and had some high level player come in and trick everyone and PK us all for gold. It's not much of a setback, but it's still incredibly annoying because all I was trying to do was get some leveling in, and some fool comes along and kills what was good progress. That's a broken system. I think it's absolutely idiotic that there's no option to deny someone the ability to go hostile with you.

You can't always play private. Sometimes none of your friends are online to help you. Other times, the best way to level is to join public games and follow runs. I should be able to do that in peace whenever I please and not have to worry about some fool coming in and trying to ruin it for me and everyone else.

[PrinceOfThieves]

@jhtvman

Dude, I couldn't agree with you more. Dedicated PvP arenas (or something similar) or a system for consensual brawling (see: hostility agreement button) is the way to go. PK, especially as it's set up in Diablo II is an open invitation for snot-nosed kids to jump in and ruin everyone's playing experience.

@teh_Thrasher

While I agree with you that the world (especially the online gaming world) is full of jerks, to say that we should just let them run around, aggravating all who cross paths with them, is simply ridiculous. There are ways to filter out those who would love nothing more than to ruin your fun, and Blizzard looks to be on track to do just that with Diablo III.

[SeCKSEgai]

pfft why dont u go play single player then if u dont want online interactions. not everyone is a nice person. there are jerks in the world. u cant filter the world! if someone comes in and hostiles u just dont go near them, if they get in range, just leave the game. big whoop its not that hard to get back to where u were.

Low level vs low/mid level pking was/IS the best pking.
it just doesnt get better than cramming as much health/dmg into a low level character and just go about wrecking some pvm'rs if u qq about being pkd, u probably havent ever done it and just dont know the exquisite rush of it.


oh and by the way... u dont seriously think an agree to hostility button would work do u? like seriously? no one would use it! like they would all cry that the other persons got better gear and that they wont fight. sounds like a big qq fest.

and seriously there arent that many Pkers out there so u dont really have anything to worry about children. all HC games are private now anyways so u can still play like that and not worry. the only annoying thing is pkers that follow u from game to game haha thats the worse :P

oh.. keep pk in the game.


The "carebears" as they can be known enjoy the camaraderie and such that comes from teamplay. There are plenty of reasons not to just play single player. Griefing players is what pk basically is, and while there are ways to avoid it, in the end its still griefing. I get tempted from time to time to take one of my characters and go pk on some unsuspecting folk, but minimal enjoyment at someone else's expense isn't fun for me, especially since so few are equipped to handle a regular pvper in games people typically pk in. When I kill someone in game, knowing that they agreed to the fight means more to me than winning or losing.

[Krugar]

A system that tends to lower the grief considerably is, missing a better name, dedicated PvP. It's not new, it's actually very old and it works.

A check box allowing PvP is not a solution. teh_Thrasher nails it. It just doesn't work because PvP is essentially about non consensual PK. There isn't much point to PvP if there must be consent. Might just call it Duel and forget PK.

PKers are in search for a different type of gameplay. And trust me when I say Diablo 2 was far from it as many hardcore PKers can agree. They want non consensual PK first and foremost and they aren't in a quest to ruin everybody's fun. The other group of people who do bask in grieving are the minority that give PvP a bad name. And no self-conscious PKer should be penalized because of them.

Anyway, dedicated PvP could work with Diablo 3, in my opinion. It involves changes to what was the character creation process in Diablo 2 and to game design. First, during character creation, a player chooses if they want to create a PvP character or a "safe" character. PvP character can only PK other PvP characters. But both PvP and safe characters share the same servers and can play the game normally and even party together.

In order to create an incentive to the creation of PvP characters, the game can present these characters with additional special equipment only wearable by them, as well as other game mechanics, like live PK statistics, special quests, and specific ladders.

In this way, I'm sure that even many non typical PKers would eventually try out their luck in PK. You can argue this is just a disguised form of consensual PK. And I would agree. However, there's no real solution to fully non consensual PK that doesn't involve grieving. This, on the other hand minimizes grieving, adds incentives to PvP and gives a false impression of non consensual PK that can please the large population of honest, hardcore PKers.

[Uncle_Mike]

pfft why dont u go play single player then if u dont want online interactions. not everyone is a nice person. there are jerks in the world. u cant filter the world! if someone comes in and hostiles u just dont go near them, if they get in range, just leave the game. big whoop its not that hard to get back to where u were.


What if they want interactions but aren't interested in non-consensual PvP? Why are they to leave the game? 'Big whoop', you leave and cry because you couldn't PK them. And allow them to play the way they want to.


Low level vs low/mid level pking was/IS the best pking.
it just doesnt get better than cramming as much health/dmg into a low level character and just go about wrecking some pvm'rs if u qq about being pkd, u probably havent ever done it and just dont know the exquisite rush of it.


Some people aren't interested.


oh and by the way... u dont seriously think an agree to hostility button would work do u? like seriously? no one would use it! like they would all cry that the other persons got better gear and that they wont fight. sounds like a big qq fest.

Why not? If the game is as you say it is pretty much everyone would use the hostile button, after all nothing better than the thrill of being PKed. Nevermind the fact that we're talking about a minority of players who want to enforce their own ruleset on the whole community.

FYI - the vast majority of new members who got banned from the forum after D3 got annopunced were in fact PK advocates - there seems to be a strong correlation between pking "noobs and carebears" in-game and calling them names and flaming on the forum.

Back on topic - if non-consensual PK is to be removed from D3 it should perhaps be discussed in dedicated pro-PK forums - you PKers owe it to yourselves. Apparently your concept of fun is different from what the majority of players consider fun.


and seriously there arent that many Pkers out there so u dont really have anything to worry about children. all HC games are private now anyways so u can still play like that and not worry. the only annoying thing is pkers that follow u from game to game haha thats the worse :P

oh.. keep pk in the game.

HC is different in terms of PK obviously but I find the above argument funny. HC is like that because of PKing, are you sure people wouldn't play in open games and versatile teams in HC if it weren't for PK? A lot of people don't consider being forced to play in private passworded games a good thing.


A check box allowing PvP is not a solution. teh_Thrasher nails it. It just doesn't work because PvP is essentially about non consensual PK. There isn't much point to PvP if there must be consent. Might just call it Duel and forget PK.


You say it is and make it sound as if it were some universal truth. What about all those who see it otherwise?

The main problem seems to be that this forum has both PvP and PK in it's name while in fact they are two very different things. And PK is obviously a huge issue in hardcore and but an annoyance in softcore.

By posting here you guys are mostly arguing with softcore players, you should try posting in D3 hardcore forum to get a better discussion.

They want non consensual PK first and foremost and they aren't in a quest to ruin everybody's fun. The other group of people who do bask in grieving are the minority that give PvP a bad name. And no self-conscious PKer should be penalized because of them.


Hence they should permanently check the allow hostility button and enjoy their marvelous D3 life full of thrills and adrenaline.

And if it's that much fun more people will eventually check the allow hostility button to enjoy it.

Honorable self-conscious PKers shouldn't be penalized because of hacking TPPK idiots who ruin games. People not interested in PK shouldn't be penalised because there exists a group of honorable and self-conscious PKers whom they don't want to interact with.

Here's a HC forum thread about the hostility:http://forums.diii.net/showthread.php?t=686915

I don't see people whine there as much as we get it here.

Plus as of now the non-consensual hostility is said to have been removed from the game so why keep discussing it ad nauseam repeating the same old arguments?

Some people like PK, some don't. I see no point to debate it all the time, i also haven't seen any new arguments since the first few days after the hostility decision was announced by blizzard, from neither side of the debate.

[jhtvman]

PKers are in search for a different type of gameplay. And trust me when I say Diablo 2 was far from it as many hardcore PKers can agree. They want non consensual PK first and foremost and they aren't in a quest to ruin everybody's fun.
How is non-consensual PK anything but a quest to ruin the fun of others?

[Krugar]

How is non-consensual PK anything but a quest to ruin the fun of others?

It's a good question, jhtvman. I can understand why you bring it. But it's my opinion this question wouldn't have been posed some years ago when PvP was an entire different thing altogether.

PvP is essentially about the rush. A PvPer wants to experience the altogether different feelings of fighting a human controlled character which is infinitely smarter than any monster. They want also to experience the constant threat that is to play in a game world where they are in constant danger of being attacked. There is in fact no desire to cause grief.

However in systems like Diablo (and many other games who didn't implement PvP proper, and instead just threw it in) there are two problems. PvP becomes exploitable and it draws the "scum" of gaming society. True PvP becomes adulterated and it indeed becomes about grieving. Many PKers enjoy this system as much you. Make no mistake.

I'm trying to present a solution to this problem on the previous post in that a PvP system is actually integrated into the game and where PvP characters can live side-by-side with non PvP characters without the later fearing hostility.

The main problem seems to be that this forum has both PvP and PK in it's name while in fact they are two very different things. And PK is obviously a huge issue in hardcore and but an annoyance in softcore.

I'm not sure what are your semantics problem with this. But I'll be hard pressed to not consider PK a word describing non consensual PvP, and PVP a more lat word simply describing any player vs. player activities. Often PK is also used as a verb to describe the action of PvP engagement. Be it consensual or non consensual.

By posting here you guys are mostly arguing with softcore players, you should try posting in D3 hardcore forum to get a better discussion.

I'm not sure what you mean. This is the forum for D3 PVP & PK debate. In any case, you'll probably be surprised if I tell you I actually don't like PvP in general. However, just because I take a dislike to something doesn't mean I can't agree to its legitimacy. On the other hand make no mistake I don't see why a non PvP player who doesn't like PvP nor wants to engage in PvP should have to put up with it.

I've tried to present a solution on my previous post that you decided to ignore altogether in your reply. I'm not sure why. But a checkbox is simply not the solution in my opinion. It's a poor man solution that once again fail to truly create a PvP system (see reply to jhtvman on this post). A checkbox will also dilute further the game population and ghetto the PvP community, be them honest PvP or the PvP scumbags.

[Krugar]

You say it is and make it sound as if it were some universal truth. What about all those who see it otherwise?

I missed this remark on my previous post.

Uncle_Mike, I tend to try and populate my posts with "in my opinion" type of statements whenever I'm discussing anything where I don't have an authoritative stance. This certainly includes anything relating to games.

Sometimes though, I may miss those three words. But it is safe to assume that anyone in here (I and you included) is debating based on their own opinions and nothing more. I certainly extend that courtesy to you.

[jhtvman]

PvP is essentially about the rush. A PvPer wants to experience the altogether different feelings of fighting a human controlled character which is infinitely smarter than any monster. They want also to experience the constant threat that is to play in a game world where they are in constant danger of being attacked. There is in fact no desire to cause grief.
But that's the problem inherent in the system. It does cause grief, even if that isn't what's first in mind for the PKer. Yeah, they want the rush of hunting a smart, human controlled player because it's much more challenging than a brainless computer. That's understandable. However, it still involves hunting people who don't want to be hunted. Your fun is their grief, no matter your intent.

And perhaps I'm too "new school" or whatever you want to term me as, but I see that as unequivocally unacceptable. Those who don't want to be PKed shouldn't have to deal with it, and your solution of offering better items and more content to those who choose to play in the PVP realms is also an unfair concept because it works from a false assumption that PVPers are somehow deserving of exclusive gear and more content because of the way they choose to play. That's most definitely unfair for those who want to play PK-free because it gives them a lesser game experience in a literal, tangible sense.

This is why I think that an accept/deny hostility system is the best solution to the problem. For those who want to "experience the rush" and all that, they can go ahead and accept hostility from whoever they want and then have fun playing a game of cat and mouse. In addition to that, an accept/deny system also grants players who want to be free of PKers a way out. You get a system where those who enjoy the hunt can still enjoy it, and those who don't can just ignore them.

[Krugar]

Good points, jhtvm!

Let me try and adress some aspects though.

Those who don't want to be PKed shouldn't have to deal with it

And that is indeed the eternal problem with PK since its inception some 20 years ago. How fair and justified is it to force a player into a game style they simply want to have nothing to do with? In my opinion, not at all.

Some PKers (lets for now ignore the grievers type) however look at it differently and like to assume a PvP environment is a mirror of... real life if you want, in that danger is indeed around the corner and there's such a thing as the hunter and the hunted. I personally don't partake of this opinion since I'm very much friendly to the notion of my freedom ending when the other person freedom begins. On this you and I agree entirely.

Diablo doesn't seem like a game that is geared toward PvP in that fully non-consensual PvP could be implemented and generally accepted by the community. There's a strong and defining PvM component that simply isn't compatible.

and your solution of offering better items and more content to those who choose to play in the PVP realms is also an unfair concept because it works from a false assumption that PVPers are somehow deserving of exclusive gear and more content because of the way they choose to play.

In fact, it's the other way around. From my experience and obsevations towards the years, when you include in a game limiting conditions to PvP the result is that the PvP community shortens considerably. The idea is thus to create an incentive to PvP.

Assuming such a feature as presented above would be implemented, many players who traditionally don't play PvP wouldn't feel many incentives to give it a shot (can you imagine how much worst would it be like if a checkbox was implemented?). So the PvP community would in fact be rather stale and slow growing... if not shrinking.

With the introduction of in-game incentives to play a PvP character, you are hinting players into also try PvP characters, much like ladder only items and runewords were an incentive for players to try this play style. A PvP community can be more dynamic in this context and remain an exciting game alternative that some (you probably too ;) ) will eventually want to give a shot.

Conversely, it does conflict with my earlier comment that PvP characters could party with non PvP characters. I withdraw and accept this shouldn't be allowed.

EDIT: One clarification... under a dedicated PvP system such as the one I'm trying to defend, there's no such thing as a hostility button. Characters defined as PvP during creation time are permanently in "hostile mode" towards other PvP characters. They can attack or be attacked without any warning.

EDIT2: A second clarification is that naturally this doesn't stop the possibility of a checkbox to be created for non PvP characters to try out PK with other non PvP characters. However PvP characters and non PvP characters can never combat with each other. What I'm trying to establish here is that the problem with PvP in general and PK in particular in a game like Diablo is that... there is really no PvP system implemented. There ought to be one. And this would please PKers while still creating the necessary safeguards for those players who don't want to have anything to do with it.

[jhtvman]

In fact, it's the other way around. From my experience and obsevations towards the years, when you include in a game limiting conditions to PvP the result is that the PvP community shortens considerably. The idea is thus to create an incentive to PvP.

Assuming such a feature as presented above would be implemented, many players who traditionally don't play PvP wouldn't feel many incentives to give it a shot (can you imagine how much worst would it be like if a checkbox was implemented?). So the PvP community would in fact be rather stale and slow growing... if not shrinking.
What's the problem with that, though? Shouldn't PVP/PK live or die on its own merits, as opposed to being kept alive because it offers access to exclusive content?

Players shouldn't need need an extra incentive to play PVP. Either they like it or they don't, and cutting them off from certain content because of a personal preference in play style is no way to handle things. If the PVP community shrinks and perhaps even dies, then that's simply a matter of due course.

With the introduction of in-game incentives to play a PvP character, you are hinting players into also try PvP characters, much like ladder only items and runewords were an incentive for players to try this play style. A PvP community can be more dynamic in this context and remain an exciting game alternative that some (you probably too ;) ) will eventually want to give a shot.
That creates an incentive that has nothing to do PVP or PK itself. Were I to join the PVP realms, it would be to gain access to exclusive content in spite of the fact that I was in a PVP realm, not because of it. My attitude would be more of a "fine, I'll put up with this stupid PVP crap" as opposed to actually wanting to be there.

[Krugar]

I can't argue much more than I have already. If you still look at it that way, it's because I did a poor job explaining myself.

In-game incentives are at the core of any game. That's why we play games. Without any incentive a game lacks purpose. You can argue the game already provides incentives and PvP is in itself a rewarding game style for those who like it. And I surely can understand we you are coming from. But history has proven otherwise and under limitations to PK, the PVP communities usually die a slow death on games with a strong PvM component.

Looking at PvP-only incentives as competing factors to non PvP play is surely not what was intended on the inordinate number of games that implemented similar measures. It's your prerogative insisting in thinking this way and there is very little I can do to change your mind.

[PrinceOfThieves]

What about those people who like to go back and forth between PvM and PvP?

For instance, in Diablo II, the typical life of a sorceress under my control is one that spends a ton of time questing and leveling up, even more time magic finding (when she's "old enough"), and a fair amount of time engaged in PvP (consensual "dueling" is how you would term it, I believe).

If the system were to force me to permanently designate myself as PvP or PvM from the start, this would mess things up. I can see myself trying to level up or hunt for items, while at the same time, trying to hide myself from some kid who's bent on smearing my face through the mud, all because I'm "locked" into PvP mode. On the other hand, I can see myself in the mood for some dueling, yet I'm forced to remain on the sidelines to watch the other kids have fun, and this because I'm "locked" into PvM mode.

This is why I believe that an in-game agree to hostility button would be a viable option. If I'm in the mood for some old fashioned questing, I can simply leave it unchecked. If I've got an itch to quest and fight (or just straight brawl with other players, whether in organized dueling or in the hunter/hunted way), I can check it.

This way, players can swing back and forth between PvM and PvP, depending on what they're in the mood for. Plus, unlike the perma-PvP option, it doesn't divide the community (don't even get me started on Ladder).

To me, at least, this seems like a way to get the best of both worlds. Just my two cents (why only two cents?).

[Krugar]

The hostile button (or PK checkbox) is certainly a possibility even in the presence of a PvP system that forces players to choose between PvP or non PvP characters during character creation.

I don't see a problem implementing it for non PvP characters that wish to go into Duel mode once and awhile.

[SeCKSEgai]

After reading since my last post, I felt the need to add a bit more =)

As far as Pk not being pvp, going by the most literal translation I would say it is. The biggest difference from typical pvp to pk is that general pvp is consensual whereas pk rarely is.

While I've always been fond of in-game incentives to pvp, from my experience it seems to do more harm than good. From previous MMORPG experience, when special items are made available through pvp merits, people who have no intention of "actual" pvp will take part in order to acquire desired ability/item. For example, in City of Heroes, there are special temp powers that can be awarded for completing certain tasks in a pvp zone, not to mention badges. There's no reason to need badges or these temp powers, but if one wants them, they must be willing to risk pvp combat.

On the otherhand, taking a look at WoW and its battlegrounds, I know for sometime (not sure if it still exists) you would have a problem with people simply afking and not contributing to their side for the sake of merits that could only be acquired in pvp. Not only does it affect the other side's chance of winning by wasting a slot that could be taken by someone who would contribute, it can also severely unbalance the sides, often taking away from the fun that could otherwise be had.

But with that said, I do like how CoH and WoW handle pvp in general. In CoH, you have specific pvp arenas and areas where combat is always concensual. In WoW, you have dedicated PvP servers that allow people who want the thrill of being attacked at any time to enjoy that aspect without impacting the gameplay of people who want to avoid it altogether. For those who want to pvp but on their own terms (ie when they want to) WoW has battlegrounds to do just that. And if I remember correctly, there was an option to duel if both sides agreed to do so outside of key cities.

It all comes down to how you define "Pk". As it's generally known, pk is the act of killing (or attempting to kill) unsuspecting players in the midst of pvm activities.

There is no such thing as a polite pker. If one takes the time to ask or insure that combat is consenual it's no longer "pk" but general pvp. PK is greiving, and I can't see how it could otherwise be termed. The closest thing to a "polite pker" I could see would be a pker that did not gloat or whine if he won or lost in his attempts to pk, which virtually don't exist, as those people rarely pk.

As for getting the rush of hunting someone or being hunted, d2 is a poor example. No dedicated pvp areas, Games upon games but no common gathering areas like a city or town (ie Pocket D in CoH or the big cities in WoW). In d2, if it wasn't for pk, we'd rarely fight outside of hell blood moor. It's just not convenient to be far from town should you die, and corpse retrieval plays a major role in that.

[jel]

Just the other day, a friend of mine was playing on my computer and eventhough he got frustrated, he's probably going to buy the game - or keep playing on my computer.
It just is.

That sounds more of the beginning of an addiction, to me at least.

[GoldenBird]

sorry, but.. is hardcore Pking still an issue, after all these years?
You'd think by now players will grow a brain and avoid getting Pk'd.
You can portal to town, you can hide, you can run, you can leave game.. you can do soo many things and still people get PK'd... sorry, but you're just dumb or cocky if you get Pk'd. No excuses.
I think they will finally take away the non-consensual hostility, so no worries anyway.. the wimps finally succeeded in taking away a great source of fun for countless players, including me =/



Maybe people who got Pk'd in D2 can now breathe easier because Blizz made the game less challenging without PKs in D3?
Nothing like a less challenging game to keep the blood pumping! Now you only have to deal with your mindless and repetitive hunting for items without those pesky PKs who just make it tougher on you...
At least personally, I didn't aim at forcing my play style on anyone. I PK'd because it was fun for me, and way more challenging than mindless killing a random AI mob.

Buddy, if you wanna go and kill stuff, go to a dueling game. There's nothing fun in wrecking someone else's fun, I really don't know how people think it's at all fun.

I personally think this idea is pretty great, gives you a choice, and they can't force hostility upon you.

[teh_Thrasher]

lol dueling game. who wants to go somewhere and lose. life isnt fair everyone... lets all open our eyes, take a deep breath, and come to terms with that.

an accept hostility thing still sounds mega lame to me. but Krugar did say something that i liked. when u create your character u choose whether u have it be only pvm or have it able to pvp. where open hostility would remain. bell sounds... game on. but the worlds are the same and the kids that dont want to fight cause they have crap gear or cant fight or whatever reason there is dont have to. they can play right along. without fear of ownage.

but im gonna have to agree with the side of pvp "bonuses" not being a good idea. item wise at least. titles and ladders would be perfect though.


Uncle_Mike for being the moderator of the pvp and pk forum, u seem to be very anti player vs player, whats up with that?

[LurkerXXXVII]

Why have the toggle for PVP be on a character at all?

Assuming that all Diablo III multiplayer games will be Battlenet, then why not have a very visible PVP flag on game creation, such that you can clearly see when selecting a game to join whether it is PVP or not, and choose accordingly? That way you can choose each time you start a new game, as the mood takes you. If your character gets killed, well you presumably knew the risks when you chose to enter a PVP game. This allows those who want the thrill of PVP to experience it, those who hate the idea to avoid it, and those who want to enjoy both styles of game play to not need to level/maintain two characters.

And offering 'incentives' to play one style or the other would be enough to prevent me from buying Diablo III at all. No-one should be given an advantage or a handicap for playing the game the way they enjoy: It only results in people playing a style they don't really enjoy, which leads to the problems ranging from minimal participation as people do the absolute minimum to earn the rewards they feel obliged to work for, to people flaming other players and making nuisance reports to GMs because they're already upset and bitter over having to engage in an activity they do not enjoy. They'll have less fun, those unfortunate enough to be grouped with them will have less fun, and the group will be less likely to earn any 'rewards'. This will lower player retention as players drift off to find other games to play - games which they enjoy more. This lowers the pool of players for everyone else to group with/play against. Everyone loses.

Regarding non-consensual PVP: This is a game. We do it to have fun. The dilemma is that ruining someone else's enjoyment of the game is bad (see above) but some people seem to only enjoy PVP when it is non-consensual. Is ruining their fun by preventing this OK?

My personal opinion is "Hell yes! If they can only enjoy the game by making other people miserable then they need a perma-ban and professional counselling!" but that is just my opinion, and I'm a grumpy bloke. ;)

[Krugar]

Hmm...

lol dueling game. who wants to go somewhere and lose. life isnt fair everyone... lets all open our eyes, take a deep breath, and come to terms with that.

I suggest you open yours a little wider instead. Your logic is old. You didn't invent it. And it doesn't impress. It never did. And It's wrong, always has been wrong. It's the logic of the crook and the criminal. The words you expect to hear from someone who has just stole something from you as they walk away grinning.

A game is first and foremost about fun. If you want to bring real life issues into a game do it in simulation mode, not in real mode.

but the worlds are the same and the kids that dont want to fight cause they have crap gear or cant fight or whatever reason there is dont have to. they can play right along. without fear of ownage.

You forgot, because they don't like PvP.

The fact you decided to enumerate diminishing reasons and forgot the most common and prevalent one speaks wonders about how you approach the sensitive issue of PKing. What doesn't cross your mind is that type of attitude doesn't help you establish a solid argumentation simply because you become hostile and offensive to anyone who doesn't happen to agree with you.

It's really your loss if this is how you decide to approach the issue of PK. I'm afraid that even people like I, who do understand the need for a PvP environment of sorts, will think little of what you may have to say. Instead of a debate, you are left with only your like-minded pals to argue with. But them... well, they agree with you. There won't be much debate there.

[craezyjim]

I think when considering PVP in Diablo 3, it helps to look at how WoW has addressed PVP. I found the PVP system in D2 to be clumsy at best, whereas WoW's implementation is something I truly enjoyed.

What purposes does the hostility button serve in Diablo 2?

(1) Dueling
(2) Team PVP
(3) Forcing an annoying player out of your game
(4) Killing players engaged in PVM (and spicing up this part of the game)

Now, how does WoW achieve the same things?

(1) Dueling is done consensually if you are on the same faction. Opposite faction dueling does not make much sense, so the game does not handle that case. I think D3 should have consensual dueling available in all games. There is no opportunity to grieve, other than spamming the request duel button, but there are ways for the game to limit the spamming via time-outs or delays between requests or putting a range restriction on where a duel can be requested (ala WoW, where you must be near a player to request a duel).

(2) WoW has formal game types that are specifically designed with PVP in mind. I don't see why D3 could not do the same. I think team capture the flag in D3 or other PVP games could be very fun. One problem though is that D3 has no healing classes, so some creative spawning of health globes could suffice.

(3) WoW deals with annoying players in your PVM groups via instances. The only time you really must have teammates is for instance play. If the person is generally not contributing to the group, the team leader can boot the offender out of the group and they will be forced out of the instance. Monsters in instances do not scale with number of players, so booting players just to be a jerk works against the group. D2 handled this informally by having password protected games. In general, I don't think D3 should allow the former of the game to boot other players, as it would open many more opportunities for grieving than it would solve (i.e. booting players just before reaching the act boss). I think passworded games are an OK solution. Perhaps a voting system could be put in place, where all players in the game had to vote for removal of a player from the game before the offender would be removed.

(4) This is essentially what this entire thread is about. WoW handles this by having a PVP/no PVP option on character creation. Personally, I think this is a poor way to handle it and should be a last resort. WoW also addresses the issue by having 2 separate factions. When you are out questing, you only need to look out for half of the players. This to me makes PKs easier to deal with, as you don't have to worry about every player you see wanting to kill you, as in D2. Mass paranoia does not make the game fun.

Additionally, you can call in reinforcements to push away the PKs. The WoW game world is persistent and players get reputations. Those people you grieve can more easily band together, call in high level friends and grieve you back - which is a lot of fun. Getting corpse camped is the price you pay if you fail at PKing. There is risk in being the instigator. D2 is instance based and D3 looks like it will be as well, so the social repercussions are not a viable way to fight griefing players.

Finally, characters in WoW tend to live much longer against PK's than in D2. The game is balanced for higher health and less player damage. Surviving a PK is easier, and classes have abilities on long cool downs that can be used to avoid death. Most classes also have escape abilities that allow you to incapacitate the other player and run. And there are MANY places you can run to and still progress your character. The game world is huge.

This last point is what I think is a more elegant solution to non-consensual PVP in D3. Having a "red" and "blue" team on character creation does not make much sense in the Diablo universe (as it has been revealed to date), but adding player skills that allow a skilled player to survive an assault would make for more interesting play (other than portalling to town immediately, which is not fun). D2 characters geared for PVP do so much damage so quickly that the only way to avoid being killed is to portal to town, which is not an interesting game mechanic.

Ideally, D3 will have some visual indicator of the likelihood someone is to grief you, but I don't know how this could be accomplished easily...or what metric would be used to rate the 'morality' of the player character.

[teh_Thrasher]

lol krugar, that seemed more like a flame post. didnt accomplish anything or point out anything at all. like wtf was that rofl. "ur not from a movie or some **** like that lol"

i kinda giggled at ur reference to a thief mugging someone and as they walk away they say life isnt fair. that was almost comical.


back to the subject. the game will be lacking a LOT if they remove PvP of any sort. everyone nowadays plays and magic finds to find better gear to have a better dueler(s) theres only so many baal runs u can do before ur dying of boredom. pvp mixes it up and allows for a more competitive nature of gameplay. let the carebears have a pvm server only. im sure that the open server will have 80% or more of the gaming population using it over the pvm only... id actually really like to see the number of people that choose pvm over open server in d2.

[Kiroptus]

Anyone in favor of Pking: Give up. Its over, Pk is not comming back.

In the time that D2 was released gamers werent so concerned about balance and design mistakes but nowdays its a must and every gamer can see those aspects more clearly.

In a MMO rpg, a PVP system where one can declare hostily without the other one accepting is fine, it even helps to create a mood in that virtual world but Diablo is just an instanced game where few people actually are in a game so it has no sense to PK someone in the game other than being a jackass. Give up, its over. PVP is in. Pk is not. Diablo was never made to support a PK system it was just a horrible design mistake that should never have been in the game.

[wedo]

I am not a fan of PKing at all. Glad it's out. If I wanted to PVP I'd either join a pvp/dueling game or go back to the retarded game of WOW and roll on a stupid PVP server.

[Uncle_Mike]

back to the subject. the game will be lacking a LOT if they remove PvP of any sort. everyone nowadays plays and magic finds to find better gear to have a better dueler(s) theres only so many baal runs u can do before ur dying of boredom. pvp mixes it up and allows for a more competitive nature of gameplay. let the carebears have a pvm server only. im sure that the open server will have 80% or more of the gaming population using it over the pvm only... id actually really like to see the number of people that choose pvm over open server in d2.

They aren't removing PvP, they are removing non consensual PK. Live with it.

[TarnishedHope]

To be perfectly honest...

Why the hell do we need a solution for something that was never a problem?

Other than HC mode, dying has no penalty. Not to mention in most scenario, people won't even find you after hostiling you. Considering that Diablo 3 will most likely have a larger world, the likelihood that you'll run into each other is further diminished.

As for HC mode, just remove the ability to hostile others without their consent.

Seriously, people whine and cry about too many things. Oh noes, someone just killed me in a game. I must stay in there and get killed more, when I could just as well have left and made another game, or simply made a private game with friends to begin with. Sure, you lose items when you die, but... hmm, wait. You don't. Though I've never been, and will never be, a fan of random PK'ing, I fail to see the neccessity to actually seriously regulate it, outside of TPPK (bug abuse that should never happen in D3) and HCpk (ill-will).

:coffee: Since when does a dark, gothic themed game needs to be so heavily regulated? Lifejacket on land and fluffy flowers everywhere?

[Kiroptus]

A game, regardless if it is dark, gothic, fluffy or girly needs to be first of all, well-designed specially if its for multiplayer.

Blizzard NORTH themselves said the focus of the game was PVM, that the game was balanced around PvM (yes they said this phrase everytime someone asked for a bit of PVP balance, which is quite borked in D2, dont keep saying that diablo is based around PVP because it never was balanced for it. The community just embraced it because its pretty much the only endgame content that diablo has), if thats so why there is a sudden option to turn yourself against your party in an instanced game?

If Diablo was a MMO, a PK option would surely help to craft the dark and salvage mood of that MMO world but only 8 players can play a single diablo game and a high level prick can force all lower level players to join another game when they would be in the middle of a quest. Its just an option to annoy the players and since there are so many pricks on bnet, its better to dimish their options.

Give up, times have changed and design decisions are now more in favor of keeping an harmonic pace between the players, look at TF2, in TFC you could block someone of your own team in a corridor as there was a big coalizon size on your character, but in TF2 that cant be done, also with rockets and grenades you could juggle your own teammates which gave pricks a lot of fun to annoy someone of their own team. And TFC had admins, in Diablo, there isnt. TF2 solved all these problems and its pretty much not possible anymore to do those grieving tatics. The same concept must be applied to D3, its a coop team game FFS (with the option to PVP, but the whole game is a big arcade monster killing inspired by gauntlet and nethack) which begs the question: Why the hell there is such an option which allows you to KILL your own party?

There is also separated drops for everyone now, even more reasons to coop and less chances to create discord among the party which is what global drops do.

Again: Give up, there is no turning back and there is pretty much no sane and actually good arguments to keep PK in the game, its over, live with it. Want to PVP with someone? Fine you can do that. Want to ruin someone's game by being an asshole? Sorry that cant be done anymore. No more PKing and stealing drops and now Diablo is a multiplayer game rather than giving the player far more advantages by playing solo which is how D2 is right now.

[Krugar]

And in addition to the PVM nature of the game, Blizzard also insisted several times on co-op as being the primary driving force of multiplay on Diablo 3. There really is no room for PK, neither the character skills, attributes, and items, will be balanced for this type of gameplay.

[teh_Thrasher]

There really is no room for PK, neither the character skills, attributes, and items, will be balanced for this type of gameplay.
thats a stupid thing to say if what mike said about there still being pvp in the game. although ive seen no proof.

oh and kiroptus there is always an argument for PK... just because you only like pvm and cant see the other side clearly doesnt mean there isnt one.

[Kiroptus]

I do like PvP but no one likes to be forced out of its quest because someone wants to ruin your game with a high level character. Now if you want to PvP with someone the other one will have to agree with it, which is how it was supposed to be in an instanced game.

I think you are still confused about PVP and PK. Both are diferent terms, only PK was announced to be removed. If you have any good argument to keep PK (non-consensual hostility) in the game while the game is being focused on Coop then please, post it because I would really like to see it.

[Krugar]

thats a stupid thing to say if what mike said about there still being pvp in the game. although ive seen no proof.

Enlighten me. Instead of calling people stupid, argue. Use your arguments. Explain why you think the way you think. Use logic instead of name calling. Stop your trolling. It's getting old and I'm getting tired of seeing you doing it.

[Kiroptus]

Ah and for the record it has nothing to do with a new team or a new design decisions to "please more the WoW crowd" as even Hellgate London, which was made by same old D2 team, had consensual PvP and shared loot anyway. So, the old team isnt that diferent from the new team, those changes (PKing being removed and Shared Loot) would have been in the game anyway, even the old D2 team can now see how flawed their design decisions were at the time.

The only diference from both design teams that I would point is that instead of crafting a dark and hopeless apocaliptic world they crafted a gray looney tooney cartoon of NPCs with mental issues and lots of unfunny tongue-in-cheek humor but thats another topic.

[SeCKSEgai]

Enlighten me. Instead of calling people stupid, argue. Use your arguments. Explain why you think the way you think. Use logic instead of name calling. Stop your trolling. It's getting old and I'm getting tired of seeing you doing it.

That's the bottom line really. I don't think I've ever seen a logical argument that justifies pk in the diablo 2 world, and while we don't have experience in d3, what we (both the community and blizzard) have learned from the current hostility system is that it is flawed.

Like has already been stated before, it be one thing if there were communal areas where people gathered that were designated for pvp combat, but that's not how the game was designed.

As far as complaints about the current system, in HC the ramifications are obvious. In SC it's simply irritating. Dying is not so much the issue even, it's what takes place afterward. Corpse guarding or waypoint guarding end up often being the same thing. Good luck putting up a decent fight without your equipment, and the majority of pkers are playing with the intention of ruining your game for their amusement. Not only does it deter teamplay (since that's why games are typically public if not for trading or duels) it deters people from pvp since it gives many people the impression that pvpers are basically assholes and that it's not much fun.

Truth be told, pvp does seem to get that way more and more as it is anyway, removing one means of griefing makes sense to me. I don't care so much to lose gold or pots, but it is irritating to have to leave a game just to get your corpse because someone is being a jerk, let alone chancing you may not make it back in if you wish to return. Even in consensual pvp, griefing still goes on on a regular basis. There's no reason pvm should have to suffer for it.

[Velhic]

gigashadow needs to get banned, you are whining about players insults when you are really insulting them..
:thumbsdown:

[Kiroptus]

No he doesnt. He is pretty much right about everything he is posting. He is attacking the mindset of "NO PK = Game 4 CaReBeARS!" that people keep spilling for no reason, which btw, its the only "argument" that people seem to post about defending PK in Diablo 2.

The " " indicate that its not even an argument btw.

There is also ridiculous arguments about someone in this thread saying "DuR DUR ThaTs WhAT HAppEnS in ReAL Life! A HUnTer SHoots A DefenSeLess DeeR So Diablo Must Have it TOO, ThatS Why ITs Fun to PiCk Lv 90 characters to ruin lv 10-20 ChaRacteRS Game! Its Just Like REAL LIFE!!!". I mean... jeez... I cant even point how incredibly stupid this is. I even can, I could write a whole book with vol 1, 2 and 3 about how Absolutely Pathetic this kind of argument is when we are using it to refer to a multiplayer GAME but I guess everyone with a normal mind can see it.

But anyway it doesnt matter what people who defend PK might bring to the conversation because its already decided by blizzard. And PK already lost. Sorry.

And nothing of value was lost.

[Velhic]

I agree with what he is fighting for, but he is saying it rudely.. Does he have to say it like that?

[Kiroptus]

Rudely maybe, but thats because is attacking a stupid attitude (again: No Pk = Carebears, which is a very flawed argument), so its rude with proper arguments against stupidity with no arguments. In which case I would agree with the rude side on this issue.

And he is not even being that rude, he could have been much more imo.

[teh_Thrasher]

lawl i never called anyone stupid i said it was a stupid thing to say krugar.

and it almost comical to read what people are saying about oh those that fight for PK are rude idiots for calling people carebears... uh arent u doing the same thing but without the word carebear? hypocrite much?

and kiroptus try not to misquote :D i never said anything about lvl 90's vs 10-20s.
and it was a simile. ;)

[Kiroptus]

and it almost comical to read what people are saying about oh those that fight for PK are rude idiots for calling people carebears... uh arent u doing the same thing but without the word carebear? hypocrite much?


Well at least there is some argument as how its stupid to call anyone who is against the really bad implemented PK system in D2 a carebear. Is there a good reasoning to think anyone against PK, in a purely instanced game with few players, is a carebear?

and kiroptus try not to misquote :D i never said anything about lvl 90's vs 10-20s.
and it was a simile. ;)

Here is your quote:

"If PKers wanted to be competitive, they'd PvP, not hunt Lvl 10-20 players who they can kill in a single hit. "

a hunter hunts and shoots an unarmed defenseless deer from hundreds of yards away. wheres the sportsmanship there? thats the exact same situation. maybe the pkers took a thing or 2 from the real world


Thats your justification for such a sad thing, when you say that it must happen like this in a game because its how real life is, then it just means that the arguments in favor of the subject are running really thin.

There was also some other reference as Jocks versus Nerds in school and that happens in real life and bla bla bla, I wont even cover that because its as stupid as the above situation of the hunter x the deer.



And it really doesnt matter, its a bad situation for both ends because the high level wont be able to kill the low level as he/she will quickly enter a portal an stay safely in town and the Pker will have to camp and stay idle.... whoohooo how fun for both sides! Maybe the Pker can have some fun if he is a sociopath who doesnt notice that he isnt having any fun by just stagnating the game of a character which is 60 lvls behind.

Or then a Lv 80 wants to PK a lv 80 character, so this is a very well-intended Pker right? Wrong. There other character might be a Pvm Character which isnt build for any PVP, like lets say, a Fire druid or a PS asn, and again, the same cenario above happens and no one accomplishes nothing.

Thats how legit Pking works in D2, both sides accomplish nothing, in fact only hackers really made Pk something of a threat with TPPK. Blizzard might as well add consensual PVP on 1.13 because this borked PK system only gave blizzard themselves and the community headaches, I remember when Blood foothills were popular there were always Zons with a quick hack to kill everyone near WPs as there was no cooldown when going hostile and going through the WP. Hackers always find a way to exploit this system might as well get rid of it as only hackers seem to find a use for it and legit players (tho still pricks) cant do a thing simply because Town Portals are so easily avaliable and spammable that the character who doesnt want to fight can simple open one and be safe.


Ah and again, no arguments favoring PK, as always.

[Uncle_Mike]

Sorry guys but this thread is going nowhere and is pretty much turning into a flamefest.

:closed: