How about "medium core?"

[Nimbostratus]

To me, hardcore mode just means that your character has one life. Nothing more, nothing less. But apparently most hardcore players (or at least the most vocal ones) have read sudden 1-hit kills out of nowhere, being TPPKed, and all other stuff that is completely beyond the player's control into it, and think that just about anything that gives the player control is "dumbing it down for casual players". All I can think when I read that people want that kind of thing is these people are insane. I'd like to try Hardcore sometime, but never like that.

So what I propose is that there should be a "Medium Core" mode (preferably with a better name =P). Still only one life to live, but there would be measures against things that get you killed out of nowhere. Stuff like:
-No single hit can do more than <whatever amount would make you die in under 2 seconds>, as long as you're reasonably leveled for the area.
-Either a warning when a lag spike occurs, or the game "pauses" during heavy lag. Not sure how practical/feasible this would be though.

[teh_Thrasher]

well there has already been a statement from blizzard that they didnt like the 1hit kill monsters of diablo 2 and that there will be none of that in d3.

[phool]

1-hit kills out of nowhere, being TPPKed, and all other stuff that is completely beyond the player's control into it

Completely beyond the player's control? Uh... no. I'm not saying I condone tppk, lag or buggy stuff that people will die to that they couldn't reasonably anticipate like Pindleskin's Revenge (where ES FE Pindle's minions used to deal major damage on self ressing), but the experienced skilled player will greatly distinguish themselves from others in all these areas, perhaps moreso than in almost any other immediate-term circumstances. There's always major visual evidence of lag from the moment it starts to occur, making a warning actually flash up unambiguously on the screen is just handholding. Of course even early warning won't protect players every time... If D3 is anywhere near as laggy as D2 has been at its worst it'll be basically unplayable though in HC.

Any 'mediumcore' should be a result of increasing DPs in SC, not adding random arbitrary survival aids to HC that would make actually make staying alive in 'mediumcore' even easier than SC.

[stillman]

I think MC is a godo idea. However, I would do it like this: give players 3 lives instead of one.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

How about we relabel hardcore as mediumcore, then make an even harder mode and call it hardcore?

[Angel_of_Wrath]

no. just no.

unless the new mode was called hardestcore where jay wilson came to your house dressed as a pink diablo with a rainbow umbrella, made fun of your house's colour scheme, cockpunched you, then unplugged your LAN cable.

[MYK]

What if we all just played softcore and then didn't die...ever.

[Master Zap]

What if we all just played softcore and then didn't die...ever.

while standing on one leg, barking like a dog and howling to the blue moon?


Mediumcore - How about same rules as hardcore , but if you die, you get kicked and then converted to sc mode. It satisfies the masochistic tendencies that us HC people have, and it allows "teh noobs" to give HC a chance without needing a box of kleenex after they walk into a stair trap or die to a fe pop (assuming stuff like that in d3)

instead of your deeds will be remembered it can say something like

LOL go back to softcore , press noob to continue :alright: :coffee:

[phool]

aka firmcore iirc. I expect D3 will have titles similar to GW, and something along the lines of survivor will be among them.

[teh_Thrasher]

mediumcore = fail.
u shouldnt have to worry about 1 hit kill monsters in diablo 3, so this issue should be null.

[Arkardo]

while standing on one leg, barking like a dog and howling to the blue moon?


Mediumcore - How about same rules as hardcore , but if you die, you get kicked and then converted to sc mode. It satisfies the masochistic tendencies that us HC people have, and it allows "teh noobs" to give HC a chance without needing a box of kleenex after they walk into a stair trap or die to a fe pop (assuming stuff like that in d3)

instead of your deeds will be remembered it can say something like

LOL go back to softcore , press noob to continue :alright: :coffee:

That was a good laugh! :thumbup:

That "converted to sc mode" actually sounds like a good idea to me. I was thinking of some penalty like not being able to play the character that died for x amount of time (something like a week or so), but yours sounds better to me.

[stillman]

So you're a noob if the power goes out and you loose your chr?

Anyway, I think a medium core is a good idea because we only have sc which has no death penalty at all, and HC where you loose everything if the power goes out. There needs to some middle ground.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

So you're a noob if the power goes out and you loose your chr?
Yes.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but incidents like that are unavoidable. You have 2 options:
-play softcore
-learn to build a character that can stay in the game for a bit without you there to babysit it and learn to play such that you're not in situations where if the power goes out you're not going to get owned immediately... it's really not that hard... I haven't died to PvM since early season 3 (where I died twice, once to lag, once to bad play)

[Angel_of_Wrath]

So you're a noob if the power goes out and you loose your chr?


Totally man, get a UPS / battery backup. Are you hardcore or what? The only variable beyond your control is lag.

[BitsNPieces]

I would actually give mediumcore a chance. All the way actually. I mean no sc and no hardcore, only mediumcore. I look at it this way -you enter the game like a hc player, when you die you are gone. HOWEVER you are able to get a life ensurance at an NPC. It has to be an Alkor-like character and it has to be expensive (gold sink :thumbup:). The amount of gold you have to pay increases with your characters level. After you paid him he mixes up some chicken bones, herbs and a drop of your blood and puts the mixture in a leather pouch and safequards it for ya. When you die he can call you back to the land of the living using that leather pouch and a dark ritual.... Now you are without life ensurance, unless you are able to pay (a lot) of gold again.
When you die with life ensurance the death animation could show a spirit drifting back towards town (as Alkor performs his ritual). A hc death (no life ensurance) could show the grim reaper descending on your corpse :yes:
This way ppl can play a mixture of hardcore and softcore. How about it?

edit: on a side note, this would hc players also give a means to duel more. Don't get life ensurance when you pvm, only when you want to duel another player. But again, this feature would have to be almost prohibitive expensive for it to work. So you will do everything to not die and keep the tension in your game. So obviously finding gold would have to be well balanced.

[Doctor Salvador]

When you die, you restart at town . . . but not before being forced to watch your own corpse pop, all the items falling out of your inventory, and looking on helplessly as a level one noob who was immediately alerted of your death comes into the game and steals all of your goodies.

[MoUsE_WiZ]

This way ppl can play a mixture of hardcore and softcore. How about it?
I would not be particularly against the idea of dropping HC&SC altogether. The main thing about HC is for death to freaking suck... D1, for example, had the fun of dropping all your items on the ground; believe me, dying freaking sucked in D1. Before you all scream blasphemy at me, the reason I'm not particularly against the idea of dropping HC so long as stiff death penalty takes its place is that we'd at least get a game better balanced around that penalty instead of having a game focused on SC with HC thrown in as an afterthought.

However it will either not happen because games seem to sell more copies when the penalty for death is non-existant, or it will happen, but the "middle" ground will be too close to the non-existant side of things for me to care.

[sorcererbob]

I like the idea of everyone starting as hardcore, and getting demoted to softcore upon their first death - with no softcore characters able to join hardcore games, of course. Gives everyone a chance, and then the true hardcore characters can honestly say that they are the best because everyone had an equal chance to be hardcore.

[Zeldrias]

MediumCore sounds good, you could also expand on it for example:

Teetotaler - Can't drink potions/pick up health/mana spheres instead you regen hp and mana? or just have to find armour that steals/regens quicker.

paralysed - Start with less power, and gain less power per level? Or be limited to armour so your player can't wear the helm or something.

Just an idea... but it would be a challenge to those who feel like a challenge

[Srikandi]

Is it just me, or does "firmcore" sound even more obscene than "hardcore"? :/

[5zigen]

Yes.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, but incidents like that are unavoidable. You have 2 options:
-play softcore
-learn to build a character that can stay in the game for a bit without you there to babysit it and learn to play such that you're not in situations where if the power goes out you're not going to get owned immediately... it's really not that hard... I haven't died to PvM since early season 3 (where I died twice, once to lag, once to bad play)

Of course I'm with Mouse on this.

If you put yourself in a situation where you would die within 2-3 seconds in the absence of player input, it is your fault if your power goes out and you die.

Now, let's hope there's a better disconnect mechanic that removes your player sooner if the ping goes above a certain level (or just let players set the threshold somewhere as an advanced option.)

[Game Over]

i liked it the way it is in d2 mediumcore just sounds like an easy way to get the benefits of hardcore.

[Bad Ash]

mediumcore would be sweet. 3 lives instead of 1 or you go to sc if you die. I would defintely play something like this.

Also, this idea has a simple solution vs. all of those who dont like hc. if you dont like it dont play it

[Nimbostratus]

I'm not against Hardcore mode in itself, just the lack of separation between:
A. good SC players who practically never die, and
B. the stereotypical SC players who rely on near-kamikaze tactics to get through the game.

In D2, there is nothing that denotes whether a player is A or B. The only kind of status that "proves" your skill is hardcore mode, but not everyone likes the idea of completely losing a character. Now that I think about it some more, I believe all that they'd really have to do is add death and play-time counters in SC. It could be more complex, but simply showing how many times the player has died in their total time using the character is really all that's needed to show if you're good at the game.

As a side note, in case anyone brings it up: Normal/Nightmare/Hell as difficulties are treated differently than most games. Most D2 players see the three difficulty levels as a single journey with their character, as if NM and Hell were just Acts 6-15. So saying that Normal/Nightmare/Hell serve as a skill separation doesn't really work.

[Everett]

unless the new mode was called hardestcore where jay wilson came to your house dressed as a pink diablo with a rainbow umbrella, made fun of your house's colour scheme, cockpunched you, then unplugged your LAN cable.

This is hilarious. Nice.

[ThulRasha]

There should not be to many different modes. It will only split the userbase.

There are really only 2 modes. The first is one where your character isn't permanently gone on death and for the second mode it will be gone permanently.

The degrees in difficulty are already handled by your character level, or more precisely where your character goes at what level.

[Turnip]

The way I see it hardcore is for the best of the best, why bother making something for 2nd prize? its a waste of time.

[Kalkanor]

i think D3 should be the same as D2 hardcore and softcore
it doesnt matter what blizzard does some people are goin to complain and say you shoould have done it this way or that way...
Well you know what if you think the game is that "bad" why are you still playing?
if you think that you could do a better job than blizzard GO MAKE YOUR OWN GAME! and stop whining about it!
this game is great it may not be perfect but it is better than alot of other games

PS: some nice ideas guys :P

[Nimbostratus]

Nobody is saying D2 was an awful game. But just because we liked it doesn't mean we can't try to work out its flaws.

[tbpotn]

first of all, i doubt whether hc determines the best players. Personally, im not even close to one of the best, and i've always played sc, but with my last character i couldve played deathless so far (ok, hardest part is still to come, but still) if i hadn't died cuz of lag (being a necro surrounded is a bad place to get laggy). Point is, not everyone that plays sc goes kamikaze or dies on a regular base. I never tried hc, cuz i know i have a terrible connection now and then, but still wanna play and i would hate to spend 100 hours in a character and then lose it, cuz of the router not functioning properly.

anyways, D2 isn't bad, however, there are always parts that some ppl don't like and others do. Hell, if i'd only play games that are flawless, i wouldn't be playing any at all. giving yer opinion about what you think is good and what could be improven isn't whining. it can actually help taking D3 to a higher level.

For the mc ideas, i'd like the hc-but-when-dead-sc mode. has the benefits of both modes.

[RattleHead]

I never tried hc, cuz i know i have a terrible connection now and then, but still wanna play and i would hate to spend 100 hours in a character and then lose it, cuz of the router not functioning properly.

That's the risk every HC player takes. HC is not about risk vs. reward, there's no "reward" for playing HC except for bragging rights. HC is purely playing with risk and how much you choose to gamble with it.

Mediumcore? Are you effing kidding me? I get it that some people don't want to play HC, that's fine, that's what SC is for. For those of us who will choose to play HC and only HC, stop asking to dumb down our game! Go play Hello Kitty Online or something, but keep that weak stuff out of our HC game.

[syphon45]

It seems like there is a simple solution for all those complaining about how you can lose a character in hardcore due to a lagspike or something similar. Don't play hardcore. If you still really want to play hardcore and want to make sure you won't be penalized for lag, play single player.

[MYK]

Maybe after medium core is implemented they'll add another *-core that's in between medium-core and hard-core. You know, a medium-medium-core.

We need more tiers, obviously.

...

[Master Zap]

I dont know about more tiers, but I could sure use more cowbell..

I rather like the idea of having the option to stay dead with hardcore at death or have the character option to convert it to softcore. Could be something as simple as at the deeds screeds prompt a box. Press "esc" to convert to Softcore , or Type "Deeds" to memorialize the character.

Hardcore is still hardcore this way, and an option exists without total loss. Just think , anything you die with on hc could then be used if you wanted to for pvp'ing on sc. (or playing sc eww!)

[phailstatus]

A bit late on this but here we go:

If you don't want to lose your character the first time why not just make your own set of rules. Play softcore and delete the character after 'x' amount of deaths. I know a few people who used to play softcore like it was hardcore. They wouldn't play the character after dieing, but they would mule the items off. Creating a so called medium core would just divide the community.

[MYK]

A bit late on this but here we go:

If you don't want to lose your character the first time why not just make your own set of rules. Play softcore and delete the character after 'x' amount of deaths. I know a few people who used to play softcore like it was hardcore. They wouldn't play the character after dieing, but they would mule the items off. Creating a so called medium core would just divide the community.

Well, it's already divided in Diablo II.

There's a lot of divisions: Between realms, Classic, Hardcore, Ladder, Non-Ladder.

It works out pretty well, as it is.

[PKCharum]

To me, hardcore mode just means that your character has one life. Nothing more, nothing less. But apparently most hardcore players (or at least the most vocal ones) have read sudden 1-hit kills out of nowhere, being TPPKed, and all other stuff that is completely beyond the player's control into it, and think that just about anything that gives the player control is "dumbing it down for casual players". All I can think when I read that people want that kind of thing is these people are insane. I'd like to try Hardcore sometime, but never like that.

So what I propose is that there should be a "Medium Core" mode (preferably with a better name =P). Still only one life to live, but there would be measures against things that get you killed out of nowhere. Stuff like:
-No single hit can do more than <whatever amount would make you die in under 2 seconds>, as long as you're reasonably leveled for the area.
-Either a warning when a lag spike occurs, or the game "pauses" during heavy lag. Not sure how practical/feasible this would be though.

I think lag and other unexpected factors were just a part of the game, and virtually all of long-time HC players chose skills and stats to prevent lag deaths anyway (which is the same reason why they were poor duelers compared to sc, but that's another post). When it comes to getting PK'd by cheating, it's more a problem for Blizz to fix than anything else. personally, I was just more careful, that's all.
And I've heard Blizz was planning on not having 1 hit deaths, which is an improvement. I hated to be dead before I was able to load a screen =/

[Nighthavk]

I dont know about more tiers, but I could sure use more cowbell..

I rather like the idea of having the option to stay dead with hardcore at death or have the character option to convert it to softcore. Could be something as simple as at the deeds screeds prompt a box. Press "esc" to convert to Softcore , or Type "Deeds" to memorialize the character.

Hardcore is still hardcore this way, and an option exists without total loss. Just think , anything you die with on hc could then be used if you wanted to for pvp'ing on sc. (or playing sc eww!)Na.

Really, there ain't one single "Mediumcore" idea I like in this thread. I don't want HC mode death to mean "Crap, now I'll sell my gear on jsp and level up again...".

Seriously, this thread sounds like people who'd enjoy the idea of Hardcore but afraid to try it. It's OK, you don't have to enjoy it or have the guts to play it, but adding unnecessarily complex divisions for the sake of division is poor.

Here's the catch - Both SC and HC players have a dedicated playerbase. If a HC player dies, he makes another HC player. SC player plays SC all day anyway. What would be with MC? [Old time] HC players would still only play HC, so MC would exist to cater current sc players to experience HC mode. But in any event, the playerbase would be far from being refined and defined as HC or SC.

You'll have:

SCL
SCNL
MCL
MCNL
HCL
HCNL

In the same server. As if 4 divisions are not enough already.

My advice is that SC death should be harder - more loss of gold, xp, etc. But a HC mode where death is permanent and there's no way out (Hell, I'm even againt allowing loot) should be implemented. And at the presence of such a mode, a mc mode would only be filled with guys screaming "Meh, I wanna play HC but don't wanna die!".

[Klose]

I think MC is a godo idea. However, I would do it like this: give players 3 lives instead of one.

You know, when I first read the subject line of this thread, that's exactly what I thought the proposal would be. It turned out to be something different. I guess 3 lives seems like a good idea to me in a way, but doesn't solve the problem of TPPKing.

[Puckineh]

i dont mind that a hardcore death sends you to softcore as long as there is still no way for softcore items to be mixed with hardcore items

i could care less if hardcore items go to softcore as long as they cant come back

[MYK]

How about a softercore? You know, in between softore and not even playing? I would play that.

Or not.

Or how about a beer holder plugin that only lets you play Hardcore if you set your beer on the holder now and then to keep it active? I think that's the only reasonable selection we can make out of all of these.

[Kaeros]

I really like the idea of being converted to a SC character if you die in HC. Is there really a single downside to that? I'd be a LOT more prone to try my hand at HC if I knew that if I died at level 94, I hadn't completely wasted 100s of game hours.

Any HC-only items could be immediately purged on death.

[Tai.]

I really like the idea of being converted to a SC character if you die in HC. Is there really a single downside to that? I'd be a LOT more prone to try my hand at HC if I knew that if I died at level 94, I hadn't completely wasted 100s of game hours.

Any HC-only items could be immediately purged on death.

Alright, lets see.

Player A dies at level 90 with his Blizzard sorceress on Hardcore, or this new bastardized medium-core that people seem to think is worthwhile. He converts to softcore and sells his high end gear, which is now Softcore only to a Softcore player on JSP. He uses this profit to outfit his replacement sorceress on Hardcore.

In essence this is the same as allowing the items to re-enter Hardcore. As long as there are enough competent people (read actual Hardcore players) to provide the market with gear to sell to rebuilding softies the system perpetuates.

While this doesn't seem too bad at first glance let's examine why the Blizzard sorceress died. Player A knew that upon death he would lose nothing in the grand scheme of things. As such, he went all out on synergies rather than going the safe and (in my opinion) intelligent route of pumping TK rather than Glacial Spike. This decision meant that he took unnecessary damage from the doll pack that charged him in the Throne of Destruction as he was unable to freeze the dolls without causing them to pop in his face. In addition to his "streamlined" build hurting his odds of survival, he chose to do his Baal runs with Skullder's Ire rather than Vipermagi and to make up the lost FCR by switching his TGod's for Arach. While in my hypothetical situation his death was caused by his choice of build, the gear switch put him at additional risk unnecessarily.

That is not to say that the same choices are not made everyday by Hardcore players, but a system that removed the cost of death or reduced it merely to time loss would (in my opinion) allow players not to learn from their mistakes while continuing in Hardcore.

This would be similar to allowing the looting of a characters inventory and stash as well as their worn gear, as given asecond computer there would never be risk in death.

Hardcore mode, when played correctly, yields an understanding of your character that can never be matched on Softcore. In my years of playing Diablo 2 I have encountered several characters I would declare as perfectly built. Those active in the community will remember Khayla - Xey's lightning sorc, Durable - Shaharris' 125 FCR Rockstopper Hammerdin and many others. Their value on jsp would be vastly inferior to their value as characters and I for one take pride in creating characters like that.

I have admittedly not spent enough time in the Softcore forums to be able to rule it out, but I cannot imagine them having debates about the relative merits of maxing Dim Vision versus maxing Bone Wall or maxing Corpse Explosion on a Summoner. Clearly, in a Softcore capacity the correct call is to max Corpse Explosion to increase killing speed. When that becomes the clear choice in Hardcore - as I feel would be the case if a reversion to SC were the punishment for death - we will have lost what makes this community unique.

Keep Hardcore as it is, as it should be. The players will rise to the challenge and push the boundaries to deal with any threat. We've survived MSLE's, NM FE and FE/LE death explosions, Viper poison clouds, Doll explosions, Conviction Gloams and Uber Tristram. Even lag doesn't get us anymore, as we've learned to create a character who can take a few hits. If you want to play Hardcore you need to be ready to take up this mantle, don't ask us to dumb our playstyle down for you. Hardcore is separate because it isn't for everyone and it never should be.

Cheers
-Tai

[Master Zap]

Well said Tai , I agree with every point you made. The resale value of hc to sc conversion didnt occur to me, but it would impact the hc community in exactly the way you described it would.

I retract my support for converting hc characters to sc at death unless its either "naked" of items or allowing the current hc loot system to apply. (Either you got looted in hc at your death or you didnt same as now) (retains item intergerity)

[konnu]

I like the idea of mediumcore. Total death doesn't sound exactly right to me in a roleplaying game. while realistic but too brutal

Mediumcore could have massive exp penalty and you'd lose all your gear. Lose 2+10% of your levels. 20->16 wouldn't be too bad but 90->79 would really hurt, hehe, but wouldn't force you to run the act1-2 again and again and...

I never liked hardcore but i'd play mediumcore for sure.

[konnu]

-----oops-----

[windforce]

To me, hardcore mode just means that your character has one life. Nothing more, nothing less. But apparently most hardcore players (or at least the most vocal ones) have read sudden 1-hit kills out of nowhere, being TPPKed, and all other stuff that is completely beyond the player's control into it, and think that just about anything that gives the player control is "dumbing it down for casual players". All I can think when I read that people want that kind of thing is these people are insane. I'd like to try Hardcore sometime, but never like that.

So what I propose is that there should be a "Medium Core" mode (preferably with a better name =P). Still only one life to live, but there would be measures against things that get you killed out of nowhere. Stuff like:
-No single hit can do more than <whatever amount would make you die in under 2 seconds>, as long as you're reasonably leveled for the area.
-Either a warning when a lag spike occurs, or the game "pauses" during heavy lag. Not sure how practical/feasible this would be though.

if it were possible to have a lag "pause" this should be implemented in all game modes, including hardcore and softcore.

There is nothing in diablo 2 that can "surprise" kill with the exception of hacks and ultra strong monsters. With legit pk there are time delays when you go hostile, giving the victim a chance to escape. If you're talking about really strong characters or monsters that can kill in one hit, I see no reason why that should be removed. What sense does it make to have one mode where you cannot die from one hit and another mode where you can get killed in one hit? Everyone would just take the easy way out. Why do we need a seperate mode for every little thing that people don't like...

[RattleHead]

I really like the idea of being converted to a SC character if you die in HC. Is there really a single downside to that? I'd be a LOT more prone to try my hand at HC if I knew that if I died at level 94, I hadn't completely wasted 100s of game hours.

Any HC-only items could be immediately purged on death.


If dying at level 94 doesn't give you the incentive to jump right back in and try to get to level 95 next time, then hardcore isn't your game. The HC people in this forum, you know, the HC forum, aren't going to ask for changes in the SC game. Why do others think it's ok to come here and ask for changes to "our" game? If you view dying as a HC character as wasting your time, then you aren't playing with the risk factor of HC, you're still looking at it from the reward point of view. Playing with the risk factor is the purpose of HC. If you're not willing to play with the risk, then by all means play SC. We'll both be happier for it.

[GuardianHadriel]

i agree with Kaeros...but the HC players wo´nt like me, you´ll think i´m a sissy. I just know that IF i were to create a HC char he´d die out of lag...and if that does´nt occur until lvl 94 i´d be PISSED and all that i would have wished for was that he would be transformed into a SC char.:thumbup:

[Tai.]

And luckily for the game as a whole, that wish would go ungranted.

[triks]

Interesting........Thanks for make a nice topic.

[KingOfKings]

tppk, lagspikes, legit pks, dying to mobs, speeddeath, its all part of playing hardcore.

thats why we choose it over softcore - its just the endgame of d2, stick to softcore or up the game to hardcore, no pressure, no stress, play how u want :)

[KingOfKings]

the BIGGEST insult a hardcore player can have - worse than a "no ghost death char" is to have your hc char converted to softcore!

plus, being honest, i/others would have abused it by further dumb down softcore by flooding it with dead lvl hardcore chars with dupes, to make the ultimate pvp char.

i dont mind messing around in softcore, the players in softcore are just not smart as hardcore players, somedays u just want to wrecklessly annoy people and kill randoms - hardcore players are just too smart to die anymore ^^; unless u retardedly use tppk... and those guys are just plain morons.