My List of Concerns for the Witch Doctor

[JonoLith]

Hello All,

While I understand that there's already a thread involving the hatred felt towards the Witch Doctor, I just wanted to take a moment to fully exhaust my concerns in a rational manner.

1. From a flavor standpoint the Witch Doctor reminds me of the areas of Diablo 2 that I disliked the most. Act three was easily the location that they could have ripped out of Diablo 2 and I would have thanked them for it. The mobs were little and annoying, the zones were huge and maze like, and the waypoints were difficult to find. This all combined to make an experience that I can only define as "Frustrating." Having a class that comes directly out of this area immediately raises my hackles and prepares me for something that's going to be conceptually interesting but ultimately frustrating, which is sort of the theme I'm going with.

2. The ability to have pets is neat. The ability to curse pets to do additional effects is neat. The ability to explode pets is neat. In theory. This will be the result of a player wanting to maximize his pets in combat. Summon Summon Summon, Curse Curse Curse, Explode Explode Explode, Repeat Ad Nauseum. Combine this with the fact that they've already stated that they don't want pets to be doing the majority of damage in combat, and you have a pet system which is simply frustrating to play with, although conceptually interesting.

3. FireBomb. This skill is actually kind of neat. My skeptisism goes off when I hear that this is the skill that defines the class. (As stated by the Diablo 3 Development Team.) The Barbarian has Seismic Slam, and the Wizard has Magic Missle, and those make perfect sense and define the class. When I hear "Magic Missle" I think, "Wizard or Sorcerer". When I hear "Seismic Slam" I think "Big Crazy Smashing Guy." When I hear "FireBomb" I do NOT think "Crazy Voodoo Witch Doctor." I think "Demolitionist" or "Alchemist". My mind does not immediately go to a character who is summoning pets and zombie walls, and other such voodoo like things.

I'm also highly skeptical of a level 18 diablo 2 sorceress skill, FireBall, being the defining skill of an entire class.

4. Horrify. This is one of those abilities that solo players will most likely use. It's one of those things that helps you get out of a sticky spot. HOWEVER, this is one of those abilities that drives people CRAZY in multiplay, ESPECIALLY the melee people. There's nothing worse than charging into melee combat just to have everything you're expecting to kill suddenly run away. Suddenly all the amassed mobs become little pissant targets you have to waste time running around picking off one by one.

Again, I'm highly skeptical of a level ONE barbarian skill that no one really used being one of the witch doctor skills.

5. Locust Swarm. Again, another single player ability that will see no use whatsoever in multiplay. I remember when I decided to build a necromancer in diablo 2 specifically with the idea of poison nova in mind. The concept to me was tight. Use my pets to hold off advancing attackers, poison nova them and wait. The problem is that while I was waiting for things to die, other players were just killing things. The damage I was doing wasn't exceptional enough to warrent the build and the necromancer was abandoned.

This is one of those things that IS fixable. Just increase the damage to stay on par with everyone else. But I AM skeptical of a level 30 necromancer skill that's worse being a part of the witch doctor.

6. Mass Confusion. Don't get me wrong. I love this ability in theory. The actual play of it though is annoying ultimately, and will see very little use in multiplay. The problem with it is that you basically double the time that players have to spend on a group of mobs. The first attack comes against the mobs who don't convert to your side, the second attack comes against the mobs who DID convert to your side, but then attack you when the spell wears off. Now, if they make it so that you can attack BOTH types of enemies, I immediately question the validity of the skill, because a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyway.

It's a skill that just slows the game down for no REAL benefits, and it's sort of a throw back to a diablo 2 level 24 paladin skill, Conversion.

7. Wall of Zombies. This ability is actually full of flavor, but on a practical level is basically the Iron Maiden/Bone Wall combo from Diablo 2, in that it is a wall that deals damage to melee mobs. My problem with this is the same as the problem with Mass Confuse. It's just a slow way to deal damage when you have classes like the barbarian and the wizard charging forward into combat.

8. Soul Harvest. FINALLY an ability that isn't a TOTAL ripoff of an under used diablo 2 skill. While the comparisons to any type of nova are fair enough, allowing the nova to suck mana out of the people the witch doctor kills with it is pretty nice. Overall I'd say that this is probably the one ability that doesn't make me scratch my head and raise too many questions. My only skeptism is that it's an ability that seems to rely heavily on getting an opponent to low health FIRST and then using it, but that's an issue of timing more then anything. Ultimatly it'll be a skill that'll be nice to HAVE, but it'll hardly be the game winning device.

Conclusion.
I suppose through writing this I've convinced myself of one thing; The Witch Doctor is a conglomeration of totally under used, underpowered, and unwanted abilities from other games. While every other class has something new and facinating, the Witch Doctor is basically a class that is a bag of gimmicks, holding no actual substance. When I look at him I feel underwhelmed by his abilities, because I've SEEN all of his abilities before. Almost all of them are a take on a diablo 2 skill, and most of THOSE are skills that people hated in the first place.

I can only see the witch doctor being the class that will be rife with experimentation and interest for those who are interested in exploring kooky and weird builds, but from an actual gameplay angle, I just picture him slowing gameplay down and forcing other players to accommodate his existence. While Barbarians and Wizards are charging headlong into combat, this guy is trailing behind doing all kinds of nifty parlour tricks, but never actually adding anything meaningful to combat, and when he does it usually ends up frustrating the actual damage dealers.

The Witch Doctor is literally the younger runtish cousin that you let play baseball with you and your friends because your mom told you to. You feel obligated to let him hang out with you, hell, you might even be happy to have him along because he's a funny guy who does weird things, but when it comes time to step up to the plate and swing at the ball, you'd rather have a dude who can hit the ball.

[Doctor Salvador]

I wish I could give credit to whoever made this quote, but I can't remember, anyway here goes nothing: So what's it like in the future?

I can see where some of your skepticism comes from, but when you say things like, you have a pet system which is simply frustrating to play with and another single player ability that will see no use whatsoever in multiplay I have to think, 'Gee, this guy has a lot of experience playing Diablo 3'. You can guess what most people will say next.

Anyhoo, the real hole in your version of 'I hate the Witch Doctor' and most people's versions, is that we have a whopping 11 known Doctor skills. If you can tell me what the other skills are and tell me how you've played them, and why they're bad, maybe I'll agree with you. But right now, all you can say is, 'I dislike the Witch Doctor because IMO he's a big goofy dumbhead' or something along those lines.

[JonoLith]

I can see where some of your skepticism comes from, but when you say things like, and I have to think, 'Gee, this guy has a lot of experience playing Diablo 3'. You can guess what most people will say next.

Anyhoo, the real hole in your version of 'I hate the Witch Doctor' and most people's versions, is that we have a whopping 11 known Doctor skills. If you can tell me what the other skills are and tell me how you've played them, and why they're bad, maybe I'll agree with you. But right now, all you can say is, 'I dislike the Witch Doctor because IMO he's a big goofy dumbhead' or something along those lines.

LOL. I do take your points. It is true that I have no experience playing Diablo 3, nor am I fully aware of the complete skill lists for the witch doctor, AND I do think he's a big goofy dumbhead.

I WILL say that, at the VERY least then it's a total PR failure releasing the ability lists that they did. A simple comparison between the barbarian and wizard skill lists next to the witch doctor ones does tell me that one class is currently significantly less cool then the other two. Just go to the diablo mainpage and look through the ability videos they have in there. You've got a barbarian tearing the house down, a Wizard destroying everyone like they're her playtoys, and a Witch Doctor doing a trick and then running around waiting for things to die.

In my brief defence I will say that in my experience, most abilities like the witch doctor have result in how I've explained them. City of Heroes had Controller classes that fell to this exact same phenomenon. Players will simply go for power over control across the board leaving the one class that's trying to control things either being left frustrated or frustrating other people. If they can change that trend for diablo 3, congratulations, but a quick glance at any other game that's ever attempted it tells me that it's a steep uphill climb.

End of the day, I suppose it all comes down to taste. There probably is someone out there who's looking at the witch doctor and going "I must have you." I just hope they aren't too disappointed.

[AxlStrife]

Why does your inflated opinion deserve its own thread when there's already other threads that pertain to this topic?

You seem to have belittled the voodoo "curses", but anyone who has ever played a necro in a full game, any barbarian that has used: War Cry, Grim Ward, Howl, Taunt, or Battle Cry, any Werebear druid that has used Shockwave, and pretty much every trap assassin will tell you that the control aspect of the game is just as important to one's survival as power. One of the major focuses of combat for Diablo 3 will be a strategic approach across multiple skills, so a focus on control is inherent in the game.

[JonoLith]

You seem to have belittled the voodoo "curses", but anyone who has ever played a necro in a full game, any barbarian that has used: War Cry, Grim Ward, Howl, Taunt, or Battle Cry, any Werebear druid that has used Shockwave, and pretty much every trap assassin will tell you that the control aspect of the game is just as important to one's survival as power. One of the major focuses of combat for Diablo 3 will be a strategic approach across multiple skills, so a focus on control is inherent in the game.

I suppose the only thing that I can say to this is that you and I have clearly played different games. The game I've played is a game in which anyone who tries to control is simply left in the dust behind those who are dealing damage. If you've played a different game, and enjoyed it, then I congratulate you, but that has not been my experience.

[AxlStrife]

I suppose the only thing that I can say to this is that you and I have clearly played different games. The game I've played is a game in which anyone who tries to control is simply left in the dust behind those who are dealing damage. If you've played a different game, and enjoyed it, then I congratulate you, but that has not been my experience.

Just because I haven't always played the min-maxer doesn't mean I've played a different game. Hell, I even gave you examples that refuted your claim that control is nothing. While control alone is weak, using it in a strategic manner with a decent attack is more benefitial than running headlong into a pack with left click held(in a balanced game).

[Smash]

Mass confusion is similar to Assasin Mind Blast, while it look great in theory it is annoying in use as you need to wait for effect to were off but if you could attack confused foe it could overpowered skill as you could pick up enemy one by one, but everything can get work around, limit mass confusion to few targets and give doc ability to remove curses so he didn't need to wait.

Anyway i think that WD will get big remake and i wouldn't look as his skill as final.

[snurrfint]

The reason why control skills wern't used alot in diablo 2 is.

1. lack of easy ways to switch between skills.
2. TP!! you ultimate life saver. far more affective to just tp out of a bad situation and then use the waypiont or someone elses tp back. or why not use teleport, a skill that they gave to everyone in the end, just because it was 2 powerful. "oh no, a tricky spot, lets just teleport away from it."

you have to increase death-penalty, nerf teleport and pimp up the controlskills.

Really hope runes will effekt those kind of skills so that they can be useful in all kinds of builds and situation. How about a horrify that makes all enemies in the area flee to a location of your choise, istead of just random. then your beloved wizard will totaly destroy the whole group in one single Blizzard. or a well placed firebomb if you like.

sorry for bad enlish. :)

[Farmrush]

1. From a flavor standpoint the Witch Doctor reminds me of the areas of Diablo 2 that I disliked the most. Act three was easily the location that they could have ripped out of Diablo 2 and I would have thanked them for it. The mobs were little and annoying, the zones were huge and maze like, and the waypoints were difficult to find. This all combined to make an experience that I can only define as "Frustrating." Having a class that comes directly out of this area immediately raises my hackles and prepares me for something that's going to be conceptually interesting but ultimately frustrating, which is sort of the theme I'm going with.

This isn't a terribly rational argument at all. You're basically stating you're approaching this from a biased viewpoint. Well, I'm not going to argue this at all because I can't persuade you to like act 3 in Diablo II. Don't respond to this point.

2. The ability to have pets is neat. The ability to curse pets to do additional effects is neat. The ability to explode pets is neat. In theory. This will be the result of a player wanting to maximize his pets in combat. Summon Summon Summon, Curse Curse Curse, Explode Explode Explode, Repeat Ad Nauseum. Combine this with the fact that they've already stated that they don't want pets to be doing the majority of damage in combat, and you have a pet system which is simply frustrating to play with, although conceptually interesting.

I'm not sure I understand how this is a frustrating system. Pets could make good distractions, or be kamikaze summons. We don't know how runes or passives will affect these skills yet. Your argument seems to be you dislike the Witch Doctor's style of play, which is fine, just don't play the Witch Doctor. Or better yet play a different kind of Witch Doctor. I'm not sure if they included the spell enchantment damage in the 'pet damage' when they stated they didn't want them doing the majority of damage so I'm going to skip to the next point.

3. FireBomb. This skill is actually kind of neat. My skeptisism goes off when I hear that this is the skill that defines the class. (As stated by the Diablo 3 Development Team.) The Barbarian has Seismic Slam, and the Wizard has Magic Missle, and those make perfect sense and define the class. When I hear "Magic Missle" I think, "Wizard or Sorcerer". When I hear "Seismic Slam" I think "Big Crazy Smashing Guy." When I hear "FireBomb" I do NOT think "Crazy Voodoo Witch Doctor." I think "Demolitionist" or "Alchemist". My mind does not immediately go to a character who is summoning pets and zombie walls, and other such voodoo like things.

The Witch Doctor comes off as a very 'alchemist' type character to me, so I can't say I agree completely. Also I don't think they meant the NAME of the skill represents the class, rather the skill in its entirety. I'm not sure what the argument is here anyways.

I'm also highly skeptical of a level 18 diablo 2 sorceress skill, FireBall, being the defining skill of an entire class.

It's moreso a level 1 Assassin skill, but whatever. What does this even mean? You're skeptical of? That the skill won't be any good? That the class will be more like a sorceress than a 'crazy voodoo' guy?

4. Horrify. This is one of those abilities that solo players will most likely use. It's one of those things that helps you get out of a sticky spot. HOWEVER, this is one of those abilities that drives people CRAZY in multiplay, ESPECIALLY the melee people. There's nothing worse than charging into melee combat just to have everything you're expecting to kill suddenly run away. Suddenly all the amassed mobs become little pissant targets you have to waste time running around picking off one by one.

Not ever skill needs to be geared towards multiplayer play. However, I don't think this skill is so antiparty because in tight situations it could be a lifesaver. Having a skill doesn't mean you need to spam it.

Again, I'm highly skeptical of a level ONE barbarian skill that no one really used being one of the witch doctor skills.

Again, I'm not sure I understand your argument. Highly skeptical of what? That it won't be any good? Also this is Diablo III, not Diablo II, so although some skepticism is expected I get the impression you have more than enough.

5. Locust Swarm. Again, another single player ability that will see no use whatsoever in multiplay. I remember when I decided to build a necromancer in diablo 2 specifically with the idea of poison nova in mind. The concept to me was tight. Use my pets to hold off advancing attackers, poison nova them and wait. The problem is that while I was waiting for things to die, other players were just killing things. The damage I was doing wasn't exceptional enough to warrent the build and the necromancer was abandoned.

Why will nobody use this in multiplayer? You assume it is like poison nova in Diablo II and suggest nobody will ever use this in multiplayer in Diablo III? Why? We don't know if poison has been reworked, what the poison critical is, what passives it has, what the runes do for it, etc... too much speculation to be overly-skeptical.

This is one of those things that IS fixable. Just increase the damage to stay on par with everyone else. But I AM skeptical of a level 30 necromancer skill that's worse being a part of the witch doctor.

What? It's worse because it's part of the witchdoctor?

6. Mass Confusion. Don't get me wrong. I love this ability in theory. The actual play of it though is annoying ultimately, and will see very little use in multiplay. The problem with it is that you basically double the time that players have to spend on a group of mobs. The first attack comes against the mobs who don't convert to your side, the second attack comes against the mobs who DID convert to your side, but then attack you when the spell wears off. Now, if they make it so that you can attack BOTH types of enemies, I immediately question the validity of the skill, because a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyway.

They don't 'covert.' They become confused. You can still attack any of them. And your question due to the fact 'a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyways' is pretty out there. What evidence do you have of this?

It's a skill that just slows the game down for no REAL benefits, and it's sort of a throw back to a diablo 2 level 24 paladin skill, Conversion.

No, because it is AoE and you can still hit the targets.

7. Wall of Zombies. This ability is actually full of flavor, but on a practical level is basically the Iron Maiden/Bone Wall combo from Diablo 2, in that it is a wall that deals damage to melee mobs. My problem with this is the same as the problem with Mass Confuse. It's just a slow way to deal damage when you have classes like the barbarian and the wizard charging forward into combat.

We have no idea how much damage this does. For all we know it is akin to firewall and will prove sufficient. This isn't 'bonewall with iron maiden' shoved into a cow level of Diablo II. For all we know crowd control is even more important in Diablo III. We've already seen several new AI mechanics that make each encounter differ. I'd rather throw up a zombiewall than have a group of those boarish creatures ramming into me.

8. Soul Harvest. FINALLY an ability that isn't a TOTAL ripoff of an under used diablo 2 skill. While the comparisons to any type of nova are fair enough, allowing the nova to suck mana out of the people the witch doctor kills with it is pretty nice. Overall I'd say that this is probably the one ability that doesn't make me scratch my head and raise too many questions. My only skeptism is that it's an ability that seems to rely heavily on getting an opponent to low health FIRST and then using it, but that's an issue of timing more then anything. Ultimatly it'll be a skill that'll be nice to HAVE, but it'll hardly be the game winning device.

Nothing to really comment on here. And the witchdoctor should have no trouble getting opponents to low health with poison at work. :P

[Mizantrop]

Conclusion.
I suppose through writing this I've convinced myself of one thing; The Witch Doctor is a conglomeration of totally under used, underpowered, and unwanted abilities from other games. While every other class has something new and facinating, the Witch Doctor is basically a class that is a bag of gimmicks, holding no actual substance. When I look at him I feel underwhelmed by his abilities, because I've SEEN all of his abilities before. Almost all of them are a take on a diablo 2 skill, and most of THOSE are skills that people hated in the first place.

But that's what makes him the most fun to play. He is the most diverse class in the game right now (even with melee/summon wizard) because he can do so much more than just DD.


I can only see the witch doctor being the class that will be rife with experimentation and interest for those who are interested in exploring kooky and weird builds, but from an actual gameplay angle, I just picture him slowing gameplay down and forcing other players to accommodate his existence. While Barbarians and Wizards are charging headlong into combat, this guy is trailing behind doing all kinds of nifty parlour tricks, but never actually adding anything meaningful to combat, and when he does it usually ends up frustrating the actual damage dealers.


You look at things with too much of D2's prespective. Who's to say that in D3 you'll have 1 skill builds (damned be synergy) that you need to spam in order to kill faster. You underestimate the killing power of effective crowd control. Blocking escape routes of fearfull monsters with a zombie wall, turning archers on each other while you take out the closer enemies...

About FireBomb, it's remaned Skull of Flames. Maybe because a lot of people thought about the sorc's fireball spell, just like you. But it plays different in some ways. It's cast in an arch which gives it more utility power than a straight shootout. You can cast it from the top of the stairs on mobs that are on a lower platform. Therefore giving advantage to a higher ground, something that didn't exist in D2.

These are just some of my partial impressions from playing a very limited WD at Blizzcon.

[JonoLith]

This isn't a terribly rational argument at all. You're basically stating you're approaching this from a biased viewpoint. Well, I'm not going to argue this at all because I can't persuade you to like act 3 in Diablo II. Don't respond to this point.

All viewpoints are inherently Biased. I make no claim that my opinion is the end all be all of anything. I'm simply putting forth an opinion. If you disagree, wonderful.


I'm not sure I understand how this (in regards to pets)is a frustrating system.

What I intended is that the repetition of constantly summoning, cursing, exploding the pets is what has the potential to be tedious. If it is not, wonderful, but every time this kind of system has been presented to a player base in any game, it always ends up being so.


The Witch Doctor comes off as a very 'alchemist' type character to me, so I can't say I agree completely. Also I don't think they meant the NAME of the skill represents the class, rather the skill in its entirety. I'm not sure what the argument is here anyways.

You and I will have to agree to disagree on the flavor then. And, to be clear, the did not simply mean the name. They wanted an ability which captured the class entirely, not simply the name.



It's moreso a level 1 Assassin skill, but whatever. What does this even mean? You're skeptical of? That the skill won't be any good? That the class will be more like a sorceress than a 'crazy voodoo' guy?

I'm skeptical that instead of making an entirely new ability, they are using an ability which is essentially a slight alteration from an existing standard.


Not every skill needs to be geared towards multiplayer play.

I simply disagree entirely.


Again, I'm not sure I understand your argument. Highly skeptical of what? That it won't be any good?

For the exact same reason above. Instead of making a new, interesting, ability they are using an old ability that no one liked. I make all of this fairly clear in my conclusion, which you chose to ignore for some reason.



Why will nobody use this in multiplayer? You assume it is like poison nova in Diablo II and suggest nobody will ever use this in multiplayer in Diablo III? Why? We don't know if poison has been reworked, what the poison critical is, what passives it has, what the runes do for it, etc... too much speculation to be overly-skeptical.

I am constantly skeptical of poison damage in a game like this. I have never seen it be effective from Titan's Quest, GuildWars, Diablo 2, WoW, Ect. If they can manage it, wonderful. But my concern is that they will put poison in and everyone will simply step over it to go for burst damage.


What? It's worse because it's part of the witchdoctor?

No, I'm skeptical because the witch doctor doesn't have any abilities that are cool to back up these kind of weak ones.



They don't 'covert.' They become confused. You can still attack any of them. And your question due to the fact 'a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyways' is pretty out there. What evidence do you have of this?

Every video I've seen, as well as any game that's ever attempted it as well, as well as simple concept. If they manage to make it useful, wonderful. No one else has ever done it.


We have no idea how much damage this does. For all we know it is akin to firewall and will prove sufficient.

THIS right here is the heart of my concerns. If you ignore EVERYTHING else I've said, THIS is the heart of it right here. It's SUFFICIENT. It's not cool, it's not awesome, it doesn't lay waste, it doesn't strike fear, it doesn't make me go "Damn that's badass", it's simply sufficient. That's the witch doctor from start to finish. Everything about him is "sufficient". Nothing about him is cool.


Nothing to really comment on here. And the witchdoctor should have no trouble getting opponents to low health with poison at work. :P

Unless there's anyone else in the game.

I appreciate healthy debate, I am a bit confused as to why you chose to ignore my conclusion, where I answered the vast majority of the questions you had.

End of the day, The Witch Doctor just isn't cool. He's a mish-mash of underwhelming abilities that everyone has already seen suck out in multiple other games. If Blizzard CAN make them work, and I truely am behind them if the can, great. They'll be the first ever to make these kind of controlling lackluster abilities look good in a game where people are generally rushing forward dealing massive amounts of damage.

[GoldenBird]

Hello All,

While I understand that there's already a thread involving the hatred felt towards the Witch Doctor, I just wanted to take a moment to fully exhaust my concerns in a rational manner.

1. From a flavor standpoint the Witch Doctor reminds me of the areas of Diablo 2 that I disliked the most. Act three was easily the location that they could have ripped out of Diablo 2 and I would have thanked them for it. The mobs were little and annoying, the zones were huge and maze like, and the waypoints were difficult to find. This all combined to make an experience that I can only define as "Frustrating." Having a class that comes directly out of this area immediately raises my hackles and prepares me for something that's going to be conceptually interesting but ultimately frustrating, which is sort of the theme I'm going with.

Really, Act 3 wasn't hard at all. You just go and grab the guy's organs, transmute them, and boom you're at durance. I'm sorry if you can't handle a challenge or actually having to play through the game instead of just swiping the boss and running.

2. The ability to have pets is neat. The ability to curse pets to do additional effects is neat. The ability to explode pets is neat. In theory. This will be the result of a player wanting to maximize his pets in combat. Summon Summon Summon, Curse Curse Curse, Explode Explode Explode, Repeat Ad Nauseum. Combine this with the fact that they've already stated that they don't want pets to be doing the majority of damage in combat, and you have a pet system which is simply frustrating to play with, although conceptually interesting.

Isn't every class repetitive though? On a barbarian it's going to be "attack attack attack", on a sorc it'll be "cast ___ cast ___ cast___". Let's face it, we all think of how stupid these people are to make such "boring" or "overused" classes, but I guarante every single class or character that anybody thinks up can be related to another existing character from somewhere.

3. FireBomb. This skill is actually kind of neat. My skeptisism goes off when I hear that this is the skill that defines the class. (As stated by the Diablo 3 Development Team.) The Barbarian has Seismic Slam, and the Wizard has Magic Missle, and those make perfect sense and define the class. When I hear "Magic Missle" I think, "Wizard or Sorcerer". When I hear "Seismic Slam" I think "Big Crazy Smashing Guy." When I hear "FireBomb" I do NOT think "Crazy Voodoo Witch Doctor." I think "Demolitionist" or "Alchemist". My mind does not immediately go to a character who is summoning pets and zombie walls, and other such voodoo like things.

Where does it say that it "defines" the class? The WD has other spells too, it's not all about firebomb, as nor is it about the barb's seismac slam or the wizard's magic missile.

I'm also highly skeptical of a level 18 diablo 2 sorceress skill, FireBall, being the defining skill of an entire class.

4. Horrify. This is one of those abilities that solo players will most likely use. It's one of those things that helps you get out of a sticky spot. HOWEVER, this is one of those abilities that drives people CRAZY in multiplay, ESPECIALLY the melee people. There's nothing worse than charging into melee combat just to have everything you're expecting to kill suddenly run away. Suddenly all the amassed mobs become little pissant targets you have to waste time running around picking off one by one.

Again, I'm highly skeptical of a level ONE barbarian skill that no one really used being one of the witch doctor skills.

Yea, when the Necromancer didn't cast life tap the melee people also cried. When the Paladin used redemption the Fishymancers cried because there were no corpses. When the Assassin used Cloak of Shadows to blind her enemies, the Sorceress cried because she couldn't round them up and mass meteor them. Guess what, things don't always fit perfectly.

5. Locust Swarm. Again, another single player ability that will see no use whatsoever in multiplay. I remember when I decided to build a necromancer in diablo 2 specifically with the idea of poison nova in mind. The concept to me was tight. Use my pets to hold off advancing attackers, poison nova them and wait. The problem is that while I was waiting for things to die, other players were just killing things. The damage I was doing wasn't exceptional enough to warrent the build and the necromancer was abandoned.

This is one of those things that IS fixable. Just increase the damage to stay on par with everyone else. But I AM skeptical of a level 30 necromancer skill that's worse being a part of the witch doctor.

6. Mass Confusion. Don't get me wrong. I love this ability in theory. The actual play of it though is annoying ultimately, and will see very little use in multiplay. The problem with it is that you basically double the time that players have to spend on a group of mobs. The first attack comes against the mobs who don't convert to your side, the second attack comes against the mobs who DID convert to your side, but then attack you when the spell wears off. Now, if they make it so that you can attack BOTH types of enemies, I immediately question the validity of the skill, because a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyway.

It's a skill that just slows the game down for no REAL benefits, and it's sort of a throw back to a diablo 2 level 24 paladin skill, Conversion.

That's funny, because Mind Blast is quite similar, and I used it very often to convert enemies so that I only fight half of the group and don't get killed right away. And, of course, you can just run by them. And who said that the barbarian and the wizard will be able to just completely destroy the group? What if they too need half of the group to not attack them just to survive?

7. Wall of Zombies. This ability is actually full of flavor, but on a practical level is basically the Iron Maiden/Bone Wall combo from Diablo 2, in that it is a wall that deals damage to melee mobs. My problem with this is the same as the problem with Mass Confuse. It's just a slow way to deal damage when you have classes like the barbarian and the wizard charging forward into combat.

Again, who said that the wall has to be a slow killer? What if the barbarian and the Wizard are balanced so that the wall can kill equally well?

8. Soul Harvest. FINALLY an ability that isn't a TOTAL ripoff of an under used diablo 2 skill. While the comparisons to any type of nova are fair enough, allowing the nova to suck mana out of the people the witch doctor kills with it is pretty nice. Overall I'd say that this is probably the one ability that doesn't make me scratch my head and raise too many questions. My only skeptism is that it's an ability that seems to rely heavily on getting an opponent to low health FIRST and then using it, but that's an issue of timing more then anything. Ultimatly it'll be a skill that'll be nice to HAVE, but it'll hardly be the game winning device.

I PvM, if there aren't many mana orbs or potions, then this could be essential to gain decent mana.

Conclusion.
I suppose through writing this I've convinced myself of one thing; The Witch Doctor is a conglomeration of totally under used, underpowered, and unwanted abilities from other games. While every other class has something new and facinating, the Witch Doctor is basically a class that is a bag of gimmicks, holding no actual substance. When I look at him I feel underwhelmed by his abilities, because I've SEEN all of his abilities before. Almost all of them are a take on a diablo 2 skill, and most of THOSE are skills that people hated in the first place.

That's funny. Magic missile looks just like every other magical damaging blob on every caster. Disintigrate looks to me like inferno. Slow Time looks like Slow Missile on the Amazon.

Let's face it guys, every single thing is going to be able to be compared to another!

I can only see the witch doctor being the class that will be rife with experimentation and interest for those who are interested in exploring kooky and weird builds, but from an actual gameplay angle, I just picture him slowing gameplay down and forcing other players to accommodate his existence. While Barbarians and Wizards are charging headlong into combat, this guy is trailing behind doing all kinds of nifty parlour tricks, but never actually adding anything meaningful to combat, and when he does it usually ends up frustrating the actual damage dealers.

The Witch Doctor is literally the younger runtish cousin that you let play baseball with you and your friends because your mom told you to. You feel obligated to let him hang out with you, hell, you might even be happy to have him along because he's a funny guy who does weird things, but when it comes time to step up to the plate and swing at the ball, you'd rather have a dude who can hit the ball.

Again, you just assume that the Barb and the Wizard are going to be overpowered. I don't see you making the game, so don't try to tell us how it's gonna end up.

[JonoLith]

But that's what makes him the most fun to play. He is the most diverse class in the game right now (even with melee/summon wizard) because he can do so much more than just DD.

This is a fair thing to say. My concern, of course, is that while he may have diversity and uniqueness he may be lacking in general utility. The simple truth of the basic philosophy is that if you have classes which are capable of dishing out lots of damage, which both the barbarian and the wizard seem capable of doing, they will leave a class which does not behind. There will be brief moments where a controller type will find themselves useful, but these moments will be the rare exception.


You look at things with too much of D2's prespective. Who's to say that in D3 you'll have 1 skill builds (damned be synergy) that you need to spam in order to kill faster. You underestimate the killing power of effective crowd control. Blocking escape routes of fearfull monsters with a zombie wall, turning archers on each other while you take out the closer enemies...

I just need to take a look at the announced skill lists of the classes on the main site to see what's going to happen. The Wizard has 3 instant Direct Damage abilities, one quick escape ability, and one control ability, which we've never seen before and looks pretty badass. The Barbarian has four direct damaging abilities and one mass stun, which I find to be way more useful then any control the witch doctor actually has. The witch doctor has one direct damage ability, two control abilities which have the potential to be frustrating, or not useful, one damage over time ability, which has the potential to be overwhelmed by the DD of the other two classes, and Soul Harvest, which is a DD nova which is useful if everything has 1 hp.

Without even THINKING about diablo two, I look at that and it raises alot of questions. I just have such a clear picture of a barbarian and wizard walking around laying waste to everything around them with whirlwinds, seismic slams, electrocutes, and magic missles while the witch doctor tries to help by horrifying and mass confusing everything but they die anyway. If this ISN'T the case, wonderful, but the potential for it to be this way is high, and we've seen it happen before in more games then simply diablo 2.


About FireBomb, it's remaned Skull of Flames. Maybe because a lot of people thought about the sorc's fireball spell, just like you. But it plays different in some ways. It's cast in an arch which gives it more utility power than a straight shootout. You can cast it from the top of the stairs on mobs that are on a lower platform. Therefore giving advantage to a higher ground, something that didn't exist in D2.

These are just some of my partial impressions from playing a very limited WD at Blizzcon.


Renaming it Skull of Flames is a good idea. They really do need to convince people that this isn't just a fireball.

[JonoLith]

I'm sorry if you can't handle a challenge...

/Opens Mouth to Say Something.
/Decides that it would be wasted breath.
/Moves on.

[Farmrush]

All viewpoints are inherently Biased. I make no claim that my opinion is the end all be all of anything. I'm simply putting forth an opinion. If you disagree, wonderful.

I don't really want to get into a philosophical debate about bias, but I thought it was obvious what I meant. If not then I'll try to clarify here. I am not suggesting you think your opinion is the end all and be all of anything, so there wasn't much reason to bring that up. I was commenting on the fact you started by saying you want to list rational reasons and then your first point is arguably something irrational (again trying to step around philosophical debate). Although I explicitly said not to reply to that, because I didn't want to talk about this because it really adds nothing to the thread so I will not reply to any future comments referencing this point.

What I intended is that the repetition of constantly summoning, cursing, exploding the pets is what has the potential to be tedious. If it is not, wonderful, but every time this kind of system has been presented to a player base in any game, it always ends up being so.

It has the potential to be tedious only if you choose to play it that way. Nobody said you had to play the Witch Doctor exactly in that manner. If you find it tedious, don't do it. You could go for an all-out spellcasting WD with no pets if you wanted.

You and I will have to agree to disagree on the flavor then. And, to be clear, the did not simply mean the name. They wanted an ability which captured the class entirely, not simply the name.

I think you misunderstood what I wrote.

I'm skeptical that instead of making an entirely new ability, they are using an ability which is essentially a slight alteration from an existing standard.

Skeptical that it might not be fun? Bring anything new? What? I personally don't have any problems mixing in the old with the new.


I simply disagree entirely.

Ok.

For the exact same reason above. Instead of making a new, interesting, ability they are using an old ability that no one liked. I make all of this fairly clear in my conclusion, which you chose to ignore for some reason.

Nobody 'liked' it because it had very little tactical application in the setting of Diablo II, however that doesn't mean it won't in Diablo III. I didn't ignore your conclusion, I just didn't respond to it because I thought I covered what I wanted to.

I am constantly skeptical of poison damage in a game like this. I have never seen it be effective from Titan's Quest, GuildWars, Diablo 2, WoW, Ect. If they can manage it, wonderful. But my concern is that they will put poison in and everyone will simply step over it to go for burst damage.

Not much to comment on because nobody knows.

No, I'm skeptical because the witch doctor doesn't have any abilities that are cool to back up these kind of weak ones.

In the demo the WD only had 11 skills so it's too early for me to comment on this. I think his abilities are cool, though.

Every video I've seen, as well as any game that's ever attempted it as well, as well as simple concept. If they manage to make it useful, wonderful. No one else has ever done it.

Ok.

THIS right here is the heart of my concerns. If you ignore EVERYTHING else I've said, THIS is the heart of it right here. It's SUFFICIENT. It's not cool, it's not awesome, it doesn't lay waste, it doesn't strike fear, it doesn't make me go "Damn that's badass", it's simply sufficient. That's the witch doctor from start to finish. Everything about him is "sufficient". Nothing about him is cool.

I think some of his abilities are 'cool,' 'awesome,' and do make me go 'Damn that's badass.' Understandably not everyone is going to feel this way so there's little point going back and fourth over it. He seems like a very cool character to me.

Unless there's anyone else in the game.

I disagree. Just because there are other people in the game doesn't mean everything is annihilated instantly.

I appreciate healthy debate, I am a bit confused as to why you chose to ignore my conclusion, where I answered the vast majority of the questions you had.

I didn't ignore your conclusion, I disagreed with it.

[Telzen]

I don't feel like making long posts like the rest of you lol. I'll just say this. The major problem with the op's post is that he assumes all skills need to be useful in multiplayer. But the game is firstly a singleplayer game and they are making each class so that it can survive on its own. That renders most of your arguments moot.

[Grug]

Like Telzen, I'm not gonna quote and argue every bit. I'll just go a little at a time.

Before I get into it, fights in Diablo 3 are going to be longer and more involved than Diablo 2, so skills besides burst damage become more important, so the WD will probably be just as effective as the rest. You assume he won't so because in Diablo 2 monsters died in one or two hits, and Witch Doctor has slower hits than the others.

Jonolith, I know hating act 3 is your opinion but it's not really something you can use for your argument.

Yeah, Skull of Flames is the new name.

You are mistaken about both control spells. They're meant to keep monsters of your back AND off the backs of your party members. A watch of the gameplay video will show that confused monsters can be attacked like regular monsters. Hell, you could say confusion does damage because the monsters are attacking each other, taking damage. In fights, monsters won't die in one or two hits, so it's important to not have them be hitting you back while you pick them off. As for Horrify, the only time we've seen it used is on the scavengers, which are tiny and FAST. If you used it on, say, skeletons, they won't get as far so chasing will be minimal. Plus they come back, because the point of the skill is to remove them from combat for a little while.

Locust swarm looks pretty effective. You saw how it ripped through the zombies, and it killed a skeletal summoner in 1 shot. I guess the point of it is that it spreads, so all the damage is soaked up by monsters. Here's an example: let's say If you shoot a skull of flame at a monster with 20 hp, it will do 10 damage. Then you use Locust Swarm (locust breath). If each locust swarm does 40 damage, then the monster will take 20 and the monster next to it will take 20. Or if it's a monster with 100hp, it will take 40. I'm trying to say that all of the damage gets done, so it's just as effective as the other skills. Also, I think they changed poison. Poison itself is just an element. It doesn't automatically do damage over time. Critical hits from enchanted weapons poison the monster, and skills like Locust swarm do Poison DoT.

As for pets, summoning looks fast. Jay Wilson had said that the mongrels are used as Crowd Control as well as damage, since monsters will be attacking them. The Mongrels be running right up to the enemies to bit, so if you use Skull of Flame or Locust Swarm on the enemy you're likely to enchant your pets as well. Also, you don't have to detonate if you think it's bothersome. Although it seems like it would take as much time as any other spell.

Wall of zombies is to keep monsters away while also doing damage. Like I keep saying, keeping monsters from attacking you is going to be just as important as attacking them in Diablo 3 because they last longer and are more of a threat.

I'm pretty sure soul harvest gives mana at any time, not just when killing an enemy. Also, judging from the Blizzcon B-roll video it's spammable. A way to do quick, cheap damage to monsters before running to a better position.

[JonoLith]

Like Telzen, I'm not gonna quote and argue every bit. I'll just go a little at a time.


I think I'm too the point where I'm going to simply have to say "We'll see." My spidy sence tells me that these abilities are going to fall to the wayside, as they always have. If they don't, wonderful. That probably means that the developers had long drawn out conversations about these abilities, much like we are having here.

Until then, I remain completely skeptical simply because every time these types of abilities are introduced into a game people think "There's a neat dynamic to add to the game." and it always disappoints. Again, if it doesn't here, wonderful.


Before I get into it, fights in Diablo 3 are going to be longer and more involved than Diablo 2, so skills besides burst damage become more important, so the WD will probably be just as effective as the rest. You assume he won't so because in Diablo 2 monsters died in one or two hits, and Witch Doctor has slower hits than the others.


This point actually got me thinking about some of the boss fight videos we've seen around. There's no arguing that those are going to be pretty dynamic encounters against a mob that represents a significant threat. The Witch Doctor WOULD be fairly useful here, as burst damage ceases to be the representative form of damage, and sustained damage becomes more neccessary. This is probably where the witch doctor'll get to shine the brightest, at the end of the day. I still hold onto the idea that he'll be less useful outside of that, but inside of these types of encounters, he could be a boon.


Jonolith, I know hating act 3 is your opinion but it's not really something you can use for your argument.


But I hated it SO MUCH!:crazyeyes:

[EzkiMo]

Okay, you hate the WD. Here's a simple sollution: Don't play as a WD, there will be four more classes (which you obviously believe will be much more versatile and usefull).

Ultimately it's all about what you wanna get from the game, if your goal is to "wtfbbqpwn" everything, then you should do that and leave the (so-called) lame and underpowered WD alone.

[Azurak]

Lol My Oppion the witchdoctors pets can be the mobs playtoys while i wirlwind me way threw :)

[Grug]

Have you seen this? http://gamevideos.1up.com/video/id/22069

This is the only Real gameplay we've seen. As you can see it's a lot different than the demo.

[Mad Mantis]

I just need to take a look at the announced skill lists of the classes on the main site to see what's going to happen.

Although I share some of the concerns you have I feel that this is the point where we differ. You check that page and see two classes with loads of kick-*** skills and one with a bunch of "meh" skills. I see two fully worked out classes and one where they aren't even sure of the concept.

It is easy to make a class look good if you can choose between SIXTY fully worked out spells. Much harder to do with 11 that seemed like a good idea at the time and might need some more work.

Although I really like the idea of the WD and can see the spells and mechanics come into their own or failing miserably I'm mostly bothered that he is underdeveloped. I fear that he might not get the attention a possibly unique class like his needs to be effective and good. Like you said, controller classes like these often get the short end of the stick because you need to really know where you go with the class in order to let it shine. For most companies this tends to be too much to handle. We'll have to wait for further information from Blizz before we can tell whether they can handle the WD or if he will be underpowered and played only by a few.

[Doctor Salvador]

I fail to see how anyone can dislike the Zombie Wall. Really though, for me if nothing else, the flavor of the WD really is what makes it for me. All I want is a kooky old doctor with a couple of tricks up his sleeve. :jig:

Right now for the Doctor it's utterly opinion based since we barely know anything about his skills and killing ability. I'm goin' absolutely kookoo waiting for Blizz to announce anything about the WD, a SINGLE SKILL would make me happy!

[Brother Laz]

I suppose the only thing that I can say to this is that you and I have clearly played different games. The game I've played is a game in which anyone who tries to control is simply left in the dust behind those who are dealing damage. If you've played a different game, and enjoyed it, then I congratulate you, but that has not been my experience.

This is Diablo 3. I know a lot of you want Diablo 2 with MORE ENIGMAZ but Blizzard is trying to make. the. game. more. tactical.

They'll fail, but at least they're trying.

[teh_Thrasher]

mass confuse makes the monsters confused not converted u can still attack them.
i hope its not really lame like in d2 where the monsters cant really hurt eachother... that was always lame cause they nerfed them.... same with iron maiden (which doesnt kill them either)

and i do believe zombie wall was all amped up in the wwi video so it wont just demolish mobs like that right off the bat but it was definitely very nice if uve got mobs coming from multiple directions.

dont hate the characters until uve played em

[Killafornia]

Lol My Oppion the witchdoctors pets can be the mobs playtoys while i wirlwind me way threw :)

I second this!

[Kaeros]

I am concerned about how well the Burst Damage classes and the DoT & Crowd Control classes will play with eachother.

If you balance the game around the fact that you will NEED abilities like Zombie Wall, Confuse, and Terror to survive encounters, then the Witch Doctor will flourish in group and solo play. However, if that is the case, then suddenly the Barbarian's solo game will be cramped by the need to take groups of monsters in smaller, surgical groups due to the lack of extensive Crowd Control in their design philosophy.

On the other hand, if you balance the game around burst damage, then the Barbarian will certainly flourish in group and solo play. However, do that and suddenly half of the Witch Doctor's arsenal (and all other forms of Crowd Control) becomes useless in group play.

The two playstyles -- burst damage and slower, more manipulative crowd controlling -- seem completely at odds with eachother. How do you balance monster encounters without making Crowd Control either obsolete or necessary? Even a "middle-of-the-road" solution is bound to lean more in favor of burst damage opposed to slower, strategic options in fast-paced, group play. If one thing is true in this genre, people want the quickest line from point A to B when playing with others.

The only solution I can really see is to give ALL classes different types of Crowd Control. The risk with that is homogenizing the classes, however, and really detracting from the flavor that the Witch Doctor has.

[Grug]

Health Globes offer a rather elegant solution to this. For the barbarian, he will be in the thick of the fighting, and therefore right next to any health globes that drop. His Crowd Control will be his HP. Whereas the Witch Doctor's playstyle is to avoid getting hit as much as possible, hence crowd control becomes important. Wizard just kills monsters before they get to her.

[Mad Mantis]

Health Globes offer a rather elegant solution to this.

Barb will still be killing much much faster than a WD who'll first be busy using CC before he can start killing. They don't fix the problem they promote the use of burst damage. Wiz will probably be OP and be even better than the Barb, because of her use of burst damage and long range meaning she won't get hit.

[AxlStrife]

Barb will still be killing much much faster than a WD who'll first be busy using CC before he can start killing. They don't fix the problem they promote the use of burst damage. Wiz will probably be OP and be even better than the Barb, because of her use of burst damage and long range meaning she won't get hit.

Considering what we know about item drops and how health orbs work, what's the real problem if one class killing quicker than the other, as far as actually playing the game is concerned, outside of someone not playing a character suited to his/her style of choice? If we were talking about boss/Chaos-esque runs, then I could see where .

I agree that the Wiz looks like he/she will be overpowered, but that is contingent on the runes he/she will use in whichever skills.

The thing that worries me the most about the game at its current state is simply the sheer number of skills. If each class has 60+ skills, even with a limited respec, then I get the feeling that we'll be looking at a lot of Fends(though without the bug it would be a pretty decent skill, Conversions (minus Thorns), Twisters, Infernos (see Fend), and Leap Attacks, if you know what I mean, in a few months. I perosnally can't wait to crack a nice balance with the current skills.

[Mad Mantis]

what's the real problem if one class killing quicker than the other

None. However don't go saying health globes are a solution to a balance problem when they aren't.


The thing that worries me the most about the game at its current state is simply the sheer number of skills.

Looking at the few WD skills that are out you can already see some rehashes from D2 skills. With two more classes to be announced and the WD to be fleshed out the question is indeed how many skills will overlap. How many of those skills will be totally useless and really only used to flesh out a tree?

[Kaeros]

The Witch Doctor's skills could really add some interesting depth to the game. Even skills under-utilized in DII could prove to be great strategical elements in DIII.

Unfortunately I don't see that happening, considering the way they've been toting "Action! Action! Action!" and the very visceral, in-your-face nature of the Barbarian, whose Fury mechanic thrives on the exact opposite of Crowd Controlling.

[AxlStrife]

None. However don't go saying health globes are a solution to a balance problem when they aren't.

As Kaeros said, because of the way Fury works (this is on the assumption made due to the ), Barbs will be in the thick of it often if they intend on utilising their best skills. I can see Barbs diving in while WD takes care of stragglers or, in the case of control-focused ones, basically run the enemy into the "meat grinder".

Looking at the few WD skills that are out you can already see some rehashes from D2 skills. With two more classes to be announced and the WD to be fleshed out the question is indeed how many skills will overlap. How many of those skills will be totally useless and really only used to flesh out a tree?

Indeed, and that's an aspect I had not previously looked at (overlapping skills). I'm not as worried about that as I am dead skills that "flesh out a tree" since most of the stun attacks (Stun, Smite, Mind Blast, Shockwave) and multi-strike attacks (Fend, Strafe, Zeal, Fury, DTail) were implemented without too much overlay. A bonus of such skill overlay is to experience such style with different backup strategies. That's not to say that I want to see such overlay, but I can at least see how or why it could be.

Another problem I find that somewhat coincides with the current 'problem' is the abundance of passives, but a solution (and maybe a necessity) is lower rank caps for said passives like in the demos (or possibly more than 1 skill point per level, but that is not the case at this time). For a well-rounded character, at good number of passives could/should be invested in. This naturally takes the skill focus away from the active skills if left unchecked.

[Telzen]

Barbs don't really need cc since with all their passives they are designed to stay in the middle and can take the hits. And I think it was Flux(?) that said the Wizard was the hardest to play at Blizzcon and the WD was easier since they could use the mongrels as shields.

Edit:

Well now that active skills are more than one rank, some of those passives will have to go. No need of Improved Spectral Blade, Improved Magic Missile, or Improved Charged Bolt. Putting points into the active skills themselves should do what these passives were already doing.

[AxlStrife]

@Telzen: I agree on all points, but I wonder if the dropped passives will be replaced by other passives or not at all. My hopes are on the latter.

[Keighvin]

Telzen, the more than 1 rank per active skill (which I petition be shortened to +1PAS for brevity) was already known and planned for when the demo came out. So all those passives were intended to occur with +1PAS. Some may be removed or changed due to testing, but not because of +1PAS.

[Mad Mantis]

That was my guess as well. If you want you can go all out and boost a passive and take advantage of the +1PAS. However a skill will most likely be useful with either +1PAS or a full passive.

[Pyralis]

Oddly enough, I loved doing Act 3 in Diablo II, as long as I had someone else playing with me (although it's like that with most of the game for me anyways). I am quite excited for the Witch Doctor. Not so much for the Wizard, though, but the new Barbarian looks awesome.

[Valmy]

Hi. First of all, I want to say I am an old Diablo payer (since Diablo "1"). My favourites characters were NecroMancer and Druid. But I'm not against the Witch Doctor. I disagree a lot with the author of the post.







1. From a flavor standpoint the Witch Doctor reminds me of the areas of Diablo 2 that I disliked the most. Act three was easily the location that they could have ripped out of Diablo 2 and I would have thanked them for it. The mobs were little and annoying, the zones were huge and maze like, and the waypoints were difficult to find. This all combined to make an experience that I can only define as "Frustrating." Having a class that comes directly out of this area immediately raises my hackles and prepares me for something that's going to be conceptually interesting but ultimately frustrating, which is sort of the theme I'm going with.

1. Honestly, I think there is no sense in the fact you hate the act3, and you hate the WD. If you hate, act3, ok. But it's a complete different theme. If this is the point number 1... the topic doesn't start well for you, in my own opinion.




2. The ability to have pets is neat. The ability to curse pets to do additional effects is neat. The ability to explode pets is neat. In theory. This will be the result of a player wanting to maximize his pets in combat. Summon Summon Summon, Curse Curse Curse, Explode Explode Explode, Repeat Ad Nauseum. Combine this with the fact that they've already stated that they don't want pets to be doing the majority of damage in combat, and you have a pet system which is simply frustrating to play with, although conceptually interesting.

2. You don't have to summon + buff+ explode all the time. They can tank for you while you damage your opponents with your AoE spells. You also could explode them, but looks like it's mana expensive, and their base utility is to tank for you. By the way, I don't see as frustrating the explode thing. I just see the process awesome. You can summon without corpse, you can buff with poison or fire (completely new in D3), and you can explode. Completely awesome, both tactical and visually. Sorry but I don't feel any frustration here.








3. FireBomb. This skill is actually kind of neat. My skeptisism goes off when I hear that this is the skill that defines the class. (As stated by the Diablo 3 Development Team.) The Barbarian has Seismic Slam, and the Wizard has Magic Missle, and those make perfect sense and define the class. When I hear "Magic Missle" I think, "Wizard or Sorcerer". When I hear "Seismic Slam" I think "Big Crazy Smashing Guy." When I hear "FireBomb" I do NOT think "Crazy Voodoo Witch Doctor." I think "Demolitionist" or "Alchemist". My mind does not immediately go to a character who is summoning pets and zombie walls, and other such voodoo like things.
3. Personally I see Firebomb ok. BTW, It's now named "Skull of Flame" (SoF). It's an awesome skill not because of the abse skill. It looks exactly like the assassni shuriken, but with better graphics. Looks boring.
BUT, you can insert runes inside the spell, and you get absolutely awesome skills, like bouncing with multistrike rune. Also, it looks like SoF could be thrown from different levels, or upstairs, or behind a wall.





4. Horrify. This is one of those abilities that solo players will most likely use. It's one of those things that helps you get out of a sticky spot. HOWEVER, this is one of those abilities that drives people CRAZY in multiplay, ESPECIALLY the melee people. There's nothing worse than charging into melee combat just to have everything you're expecting to kill suddenly run away. Suddenly all the amassed mobs become little pissant targets you have to waste time running around picking off one by one.

Again, I'm highly skeptical of a level ONE barbarian skill that no one really used being one of the witch doctor skills.
4. Horrify is a nice spell, and I'm sure it will be helpful if the WD is not a plain-brain. A Barbarian near a WD could beneficit a LOT from horrify spell. Exactly like a werewolf could beneficit from the necro terror spell if he is sorrounded, or a melee assassin. It's not only a solo spell; it's too a nice cooperative spell, if the WD is intelligent. Like every skill in the game. I remember bone prison and bonewalls were a mess if a Necromancer player is stupid. But they are great cooperative spells (in hc for example) to bring protection to the party. Same with terror.







5. Locust Swarm. Again, another single player ability that will see no use whatsoever in multiplay. I remember when I decided to build a necromancer in diablo 2 specifically with the idea of poison nova in mind. The concept to me was tight. Use my pets to hold off advancing attackers, poison nova them and wait. The problem is that while I was waiting for things to die, other players were just killing things. The damage I was doing wasn't exceptional enough to warrent the build and the necromancer was abandoned.

This is one of those things that IS fixable. Just increase the damage to stay on par with everyone else. But I AM skeptical of a level 30 necromancer skill that's worse being a part of the witch doctor.
5. You are judging a skill without knowing his effect in real game. Locust Swarm is not Poison nova. And poison nova, by the way, was a useful spell. Poison was a useful thing in D2, and it will be in D3.







6. Mass Confusion. Don't get me wrong. I love this ability in theory. The actual play of it though is annoying ultimately, and will see very little use in multiplay. The problem with it is that you basically double the time that players have to spend on a group of mobs. The first attack comes against the mobs who don't convert to your side, the second attack comes against the mobs who DID convert to your side, but then attack you when the spell wears off. Now, if they make it so that you can attack BOTH types of enemies, I immediately question the validity of the skill, because a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyway.

It's a skill that just slows the game down for no REAL benefits, and it's sort of a throw back to a diablo 2 level 24 paladin skill, Conversion.
6. Mass confusion is an excelent skill, it doesn't matter if a wizard kills faster or not. This is a curse for mass controling, and awesome one. One of the most underrated skills in diablo2 were Attract, Dim Vision and Confusion. The pity is that people got too powerful characters, and then they no need those skills. But were excellent skills and powerful enough to let you finish a game in hell mode with -100 all resistances in hc mode and without equip.








7. Wall of Zombies. This ability is actually full of flavor, but on a practical level is basically the Iron Maiden/Bone Wall combo from Diablo 2, in that it is a wall that deals damage to melee mobs. My problem with this is the same as the problem with Mass Confuse. It's just a slow way to deal damage when you have classes like the barbarian and the wizard charging forward into combat.
7. Wall of Zombies looks awesome too. I got some concerns about the damage, but remember you can kill and kill with other spells while wall of zombies distract the monsters and let you stay safe.












8. Soul Harvest. FINALLY an ability that isn't a TOTAL ripoff of an under used diablo 2 skill. While the comparisons to any type of nova are fair enough, allowing the nova to suck mana out of the people the witch doctor kills with it is pretty nice. Overall I'd say that this is probably the one ability that doesn't make me scratch my head and raise too many questions. My only skeptism is that it's an ability that seems to rely heavily on getting an opponent to low health FIRST and then using it, but that's an issue of timing more then anything. Ultimatly it'll be a skill that'll be nice to HAVE, but it'll hardly be the game winning device.

8. Finally, you got some reason here (not too much, but a bit IMO).
Soul Harvest looks like a powerful spell. My concerns here is in multiplayer. In solo, looks like the better skill to me. You can spread your spells and powers, damage the monsters with good DoT spells and just use Soul Harvest at the near end, killing the enemies ans replenish the mana completely it casted correctly on time. Then, spread again the new wave of enemies with your skills, or summon more mongrels, cast terror (the monsters will be damaged for your poison spells, enter again in AoE skills, receive more damage..., then terror again, and move on baby...) and finish again them with Soul Harvest, getting more mana back. Absolutely awesome for solo playing, IMO. As I said, my big concerns here is in multiplayer. If you cannot finish many monsters, you will lose mana in the process and Soul harvest won't be very useful. But we need to watch and play the final game to be sure about this one.



Conclusion.
I suppose through writing this I've convinced myself of one thing; The Witch Doctor is a conglomeration of totally under used, underpowered, and unwanted abilities from other games. While every other class has something new and facinating, the Witch Doctor is basically a class that is a bag of gimmicks, holding no actual substance. When I look at him I feel underwhelmed by his abilities, because I've SEEN all of his abilities before. Almost all of them are a take on a diablo 2 skill, and most of THOSE are skills that people hated in the first place.

I can only see the witch doctor being the class that will be rife with experimentation and interest for those who are interested in exploring kooky and weird builds, but from an actual gameplay angle, I just picture him slowing gameplay down and forcing other players to accommodate his existence. While Barbarians and Wizards are charging headlong into combat, this guy is trailing behind doing all kinds of nifty parlour tricks, but never actually adding anything meaningful to combat, and when he does it usually ends up frustrating the actual damage dealers.

The Witch Doctor is literally the younger runtish cousin that you let play baseball with you and your friends because your mom told you to. You feel obligated to let him hang out with you, hell, you might even be happy to have him along because he's a funny guy who does weird things, but when it comes time to step up to the plate and swing at the ball, you'd rather have a dude who can hit the ball.



I think your conclusion is "a bit" nonsense. No bad intentions here; I just think this don't have any sense at all. Absolutely subjective. True this is a very very polite opinion (I'm glad to finally read something polite), but I think it got no sense.


Well, I think it's too soon to judge the WD. Every character in the game got old-remaked skills, and new skills too. And we don't know the remaining skills for the WD.

As Necromancer/Druid player, I'm a bit frustrated too, because no necromancer will come back. When I saw the barbarian, I thought how fantastic would be to have a Necromancer in Diablo3, with the new skills and effects, and graphics, also female Necromancer. When they said the Barbarian were the only who come back, I turned to happiness. But when I see the Wizard (a clear sorceress with another name and some new skills, but the same character), I felt a bit tricked by Blizzard.

But... it's all. It's a new game, this is Diablo3. We must forget diablo2, and think here comes a new game, Diablo3, with some old characters, some new characters. And there will be some which we like, and some which we don't like. In diablo 2, I "hate" amazons and assassins, and I loved druids and necromancers. In diablo3, I'm sure there will be the same: chars I willlike, and chars I won't like. I personally like the WD, I was druid/necro player, but I love the WD too. But if I wouldn't, there will be no problem. There are more chars for me and for my playstyle!




Finally, as a conclusion:

My conclusion:

I play a lot in hardcore mode. I also play alone, and untwinked. And sometimes with friends, too.

My favourite skills are:
Necro: Dim Vision, Attract, bone wall.
Druid: Shockwave
Barbarian: the cry that stuns, and the cry that causes terror.
Amazon: the "lure" miniamazon.
Assassin: mind blast.

Those skills, when well-used, are completely awesome. I don't see a guy finishing the game untwinked in hardcore mode without some of these amazing skills.

Of course, if a guy is a bit noob in Diablo, or a guy always plays with enigma-hoto-blablabla and rushed till act5 hell, and doing mf and baalruns, he doesn't know a **** about Diablo world, and he could subsist without any of these skills. He just knows Mighty Hammer, Blizzard, Summon Skeleton, Tornado and Lightning Traps, and the remaining skills are unknowed for him.

Elemental, Mr. Watson.

[sicilian]

The two playstyles -- burst damage and slower, more manipulative crowd controlling -- seem completely at odds with eachother. How do you balance monster encounters without making Crowd Control either obsolete or necessary? Even a "middle-of-the-road" solution is bound to lean more in favor of burst damage opposed to slower, strategic options in fast-paced, group play. If one thing is true in this genre, people want the quickest line from point A to B when playing with others.

I think the easiest solution to this is variety in monster types. In D2, every monster was essentially the same, with the only differences being types/level of damage, health, and speed. They all had pretty much the same tactics from fight to fight, so burst damage and killing speed became king.

If (and I'm not saying they've succeeded at this yet) they are able to provide an equal number of situations that favor burst damage as there are situations that favor CC, then essentially each class has it's moments to shine and moments to struggle.

Quick possible example off the top of my head:

Barb and WD enter a room. The doors shut around them and two groups of enemies emerge from opposites sides of the room.

Monster group A is a large, plodding group of berserkers who are slow but do massive damage. The Barb sweeps in and takes them out, as he can survive the encounter long enough to stun and take them out. WD might not have the survivability to be in the thick of it.

Monster group B is a group of archers behind a barrier. Their arrows are doing a ton of damage from a distance so neither hero wants to get too close. The barrier is preventing projectile spells, making the Wizard less than ideal here, and the Barb is simply too slow and will take too much damage before he can leap over the barrier.

The WD on the other hand, has a variety of skills to help with this situation. Send mongrels in to draw the enemy fire, then either blow them up to remove the barrier, or leave them there for attention. Lob firebombs over the barrier and disrupt the archers, or summon one of those spider statues behind the barrier.

Each group presents a different challenge that requires different skillsets or tactics to destroy safely and efficiently.

[Grug]

It's about how the classes stop monsters from hurting them. It's just that classes manage it in different, less obvious ways. The Barbarian has his huge health and can just let the monsters attack, the Wizard kills enemies before they reach her, and the WD has his pets, wall, and mind control to chew them up. It's not just about burst damage.

[JonoLith]

I think your conclusion is "a bit" nonsense. No bad intentions here; I just think this don't have any sense at all. Absolutely subjective. True this is a very very polite opinion (I'm glad to finally read something polite), but I think it got no sense.


You will have to forgive me if I don't put TOO much emphasis on the opinion of a person who has no less then five grammatical errors in his writing while telling me that my points are "nonsense".

It's about how the classes stop monsters from hurting them. It's just that classes manage it in different, less obvious ways. The Barbarian has his huge health and can just let the monsters attack, the Wizard kills enemies before they reach her, and the WD has his pets, wall, and mind control to chew them up. It's not just about burst damage.

This is the problem though. Two of those three classes are simply doing it faster at a basic level. The Barbarian is stopping monsters simply by existing, and the Wizard is stopping monsters simply by existing. The Witch Doctor needs to go out of his way to ensure that monsters aren't damaging him, all the while the Barbarian and the Wizard are just marching steadily forward.

I will say that the application of the witch doctor in hardcore will probably be pretty thick. That amount of CC in a hardcore environment will most likely be welcome with open arms, as quick, reckless play will most definately be replaced with a more deliberate style of play.

The witch doctor will be the class to keep your eye on at this stage in development. Right now he's lagging behind while looking fancy.

[Mizantrop]

This is the problem though. Two of those three classes are simply doing it faster at a basic level. The Barbarian is stopping monsters simply by existing, and the Wizard is stopping monsters simply by existing. The Witch Doctor needs to go out of his way to ensure that monsters aren't damaging him, all the while the Barbarian and the Wizard are just marching steadily forward.

The witch doctor will be the class to keep your eye on at this stage in development. Right now he's lagging behind while looking fancy.

And still after playing with each class atleast twice at Blizzcon I found that the WD is the fastest "marching" class ATM. Big part of it is due to the fact he can CC mobs to make them easier to kill.
Barbarian is nowhere near as powerful as was shown in the WWI gameplay, and so is the wizard.
Obviously it's only a demo but I am pretty sure they'll even up (or be close to that with constant balancing and patching) in the final game.
They can also be balanced by having different areas in which different classes dominate. One area would suit a barbarian rushing to melee, another a wizard standing back and blasting. The last one would require a WD to sort the mess.

[Valmy]

You will have to forgive me if I don't put TOO much emphasis on the opinion of a person who has no less then five grammatical errors in his writing while telling me that my points are "nonsense".

I must forgive you. I'm from Spain, and I know my English is not very good. Of course I know it. I just try to write the best I can, slowly, but trying to improve each day step by step . Sorry if this is a problem for you. At least my education is by far better than yours.

If you can't put too much emphasis in my opinion (proving you are wrong), then read the other posts in your topic. Almost everyone here thinks the same as me, if you didn't notice ^_^

I think it's really a bad sign to try to excuse yourself and reflect your bad topic trying to ridicule the grammatical of other person.

If you can't accept an educate critic then I have nothing more to say here. No need to waste my time here. Too old to this kind of kids. You just revealed how you are with your topic first and with you new post. gl

[Grug]

You will have to forgive me if I don't put TOO much emphasis on the opinion of a person who has no less then five grammatical errors in his writing while telling me that my points are "nonsense".

He's from Spain.

This is the problem though. Two of those three classes are simply doing it faster at a basic level. The Barbarian is stopping monsters simply by existing, and the Wizard is stopping monsters simply by existing. The Witch Doctor needs to go out of his way to ensure that monsters aren't damaging him, all the while the Barbarian and the Wizard are just marching steadily forward.

I will say that the application of the witch doctor in hardcore will probably be pretty thick. That amount of CC in a hardcore environment will most likely be welcome with open arms, as quick, reckless play will most definately be replaced with a more deliberate style of play.

The witch doctor will be the class to keep your eye on at this stage in development. Right now he's lagging behind while looking fancy.

You're wrong, because the CC's themselves do damage. The barbarian does just enough damage to need huge hitpoints, so no "speed killing" there. The Wizard kills enemies outright, but not all of them. There's a fair amount of maneuvering and teleporting involved. Again, not as fast as you think.

[Krugar]

Who to say you are not right, Jonolith? Perhaps the Witch Doctor will become a terrible class. Your vast experience on game design, coupled with your own perception that a gamer is far more capable at analisyng the intricate and complex aspects of game balance, than the professional game desygners working for Blizzard, will save us from this horrendous class and everyone will see the light.

Meanwhile, I'm introducing a few grammatical errors so that you can ignore my post and don't reply to it. Fact is, I don't want you to reply. You seem you have your opinion well formulated and supported by strong arguments, now that you most certainly are the only person in the world who had access to the finished game and have played a Witch Doctor already more than a few times. Could you at least tell us how the game ends?

All the best to you and I hope one day I'll be as opinionated as you.

[Brother Laz]

Two of those three classes are simply doing it faster at a basic level. The Barbarian is stopping monsters simply by existing, and the Wizard is stopping monsters simply by existing. The Witch Doctor needs to go out of his way to ensure that monsters aren't damaging him, all the while the Barbarian and the Wizard are just marching steadily forward.

This basically summarises that the other two characters are too easy to play and too overpowered.

:whistling:

[JonoLith]

I must forgive you. I'm from Spain, and I know my English is not very good. Of course I know it. I just try to write the best I can, slowly, but trying to improve each day step by step.

Hrm... I had not considered this, and I apologize for any insult I may have caused. I'm far too used to being told I'm stupid by people who speak my own language badly, it would seem. Again, I didn't mean to offend any language barrier that exists between us.

I believe that there is a fundamental difference in the way we think about the games we play. It sounds, very clearly to me, that you don't mind taking your time and going through the game at a pace you feel appropriate, with a build that makes you happy. That's a noble and fine endevor, as this is a game, and your own enjoyment is, indeed, paramount.

I will say, however, that you and I would most likely never really enjoy playing with one another. My mentality, when it comes gaming in general, is to simply keep moving. Press forward and onward. I understand that this is how I see the gameworld, and I understand that it's my own opinion, and that's how I play the game to enjoy it. I also understand that I'll probably hang out with as many witch doctors in diablo 3 as I did with elemental druids in diablo 2, which is to say, exactly two screens away while they play catchup.

And still after playing with each class atleast twice at Blizzcon I found that the WD is the fastest "marching" class ATM. Big part of it is due to the fact he can CC mobs to make them easier to kill.


I do find this difficult to believe. I base this only on experience with CC in past games however, and not on hands on experience with this specific game, so you most definately have me by the short hairs here. I find it hard to see a class that CCs simply not slowing gameplay down, whether it's chasing around individual mobs instead of a massed group, or preventing the party from killing mobs, or simply preventing the party from reaching the mobs. CC has always been a thing that slows gameplay down to allow the players to reacte to the environment around them with more caution, and while there certainly is value in that, such as in hardcore, or in the MMO market, I'm still skeptical of a game where mobs go down as quickly as they do in the diablo universe.

Once again though, you literally do know more then I do on this, so I must default to your experience, as skeptical as I may be.

This basically summarises that the other two characters are too easy to play and too overpowered.

This very well may be the truest thing ever said.

[Valmy]

Ah ok, I see it was not a insult, it was just a misunderstanding. I don't have any problem with that ;)

And I agree, there are many differences in the playstyle. But I think we didn't see the potential of the WD.

Time will tell.

[Krugar]

Any opinion on these type of matters cannot be anything other than a conjecture until the game is released. And...

To express a conjecture is fine.
To insist on a conjecture is annoying.
To defend a conjecture is foolish.

[gluecks]

6. Mass Confusion. Don't get me wrong. I love this ability in theory. The actual play of it though is annoying ultimately, and will see very little use in multiplay. The problem with it is that you basically double the time that players have to spend on a group of mobs. The first attack comes against the mobs who don't convert to your side, the second attack comes against the mobs who DID convert to your side, but then attack you when the spell wears off. Now, if they make it so that you can attack BOTH types of enemies, I immediately question the validity of the skill, because a barbarian or wizard will just lay waste to the entire group anyway.

It's a skill that just slows the game down for no REAL benefits, and it's sort of a throw back to a diablo 2 level 24 paladin skill, Conversion. We don't know yet how the temporarily confused (not converted!) monsters are handled. I think it's obvious that they'll still be attackable while confused.
The description says they can't distinguish between friend/enemy, not that they're temporarily your allies!


Edit:
Also...it's TOTALLY unimportant at which skill level a similar skill was available in a different game (diablo2). It's just a few values in the code. Increase the damage and synergy benefits for the level 1 Assassin Skill Firebomb and it's easily the most powerful skill of the Assassin. Your argument on that is totally wrong and useless to me.

[JonoLith]

Also...it's TOTALLY unimportant at which skill level a similar skill was available in a different game (diablo2). It's just a few values in the code. Increase the damage and synergy benefits for the level 1 Assassin Skill Firebomb and it's easily the most powerful skill of the Assassin. Your argument on that is totally wrong and useless to me.

I'm going to go ahead and disagree entirely here. The entire point of having a tree system instead of a pool system (Which would be a system where every skill is always available all the time) is so that there's something to work towards while leveling and building your character up.

Historically the skills closer to the bottom of the tree have been weaker then the ones at the top, and it hasn't been until recently that games have even begun to make skills at the bottom of the trees useful for late game play. However, even in these types of game, the idea is that the more powerful abilities exist the farther up the tree you go. If you placed a weak ability at the top of the tree, the player base would have all rights to ask "Why is that crappy ability at the top of the tree and not closer to the bottom?"

So, when I see an old ability, that saw very little use to begin with, my favorite was howl, a level one barbarian skill, making a comeback, as a witch doctor skill, it makes my eyebrows raise a bit. Then, when I see that the class is comprised almost entirely of these low level skills, I begin to question the validity of the class on a whole.

It may very well be that the Witch Doctor ends up being one of those classes that is greater then the sum of his parts, but only time will tell with that.

[stephan]

I'm going to go ahead and disagree entirely here. The entire point of having a tree system instead of a pool system (Which would be a system where every skill is always available all the time) is so that there's something to work towards while leveling and building your character up.

Historically the skills closer to the bottom of the tree have been weaker then the ones at the top, and it hasn't been until recently that games have even begun to make skills at the bottom of the trees useful for late game play. However, even in these types of game, the idea is that the more powerful abilities exist the farther up the tree you go. If you placed a weak ability at the top of the tree, the player base would have all rights to ask "Why is that crappy ability at the top of the tree and not closer to the bottom?"
But this is not true for D2, where you can reach level 30 without investing any skill points other than prereqs. Furthermore, some lower level skills, e.g. Fireball (lvl12) and DTalon (lvl1), are perfectly viable endgame skills. There are also enough examples of lvl 24/30 skills that are not end-game worthy at all (e.g. Armageddon, Blade shield, Chilling Armor).

The more you try to extrapolate from D2, the more I get the feeling you didn't really play it that much. First you compare the WD's Fire Bomb with Fireball, while it is a lot more like the Assassins Fire Blast (you had some other skills confused as well) and now you are suggesting that skill level requirement actually had an important role in D2's gameplay. If extrapolating from D2 is valid at all remains to be seen, but doing it in a wrong way... never.

[Krugar]

So, when I see an old ability, that saw very little use to begin with, my favorite was howl, a level one barbarian skill, making a comeback, as a witch doctor skill, it makes my eyebrows raise a bit.

Give it a little bit more thought before reaching a conclusion. If Howl did have indeed limited use, it was because the skill was on the wrong character. Can you imagine an Amazon with Howl? A sorceress? How useful would you think it would be now?

On any case, D2 skill trees had many problems and I'd stay away from using them as a comparison term if I were you.

Then, when I see that the class is comprised almost entirely of these low level skills, I begin to question the validity of the class on a whole.

What low level skills, I ask?
What if Wall of Zombies dishes huge amount of damage on later levels, or lasts longer or can whitstand huge amounts of damage? What if Firebomb splash area increases with every level? What if Locust Swarm jumps to more targets with every level? What if Soul Harvest area of effect increases and it starts also leaching life? And what about the missing skills?

There is simply no way one can honestly comment on the power of these, or any other skills, at this moment in time. And even with some answers given, until one can actually match the WD against monsters in the comfort of our homes, we need to change our attitude and be more intellectually honest about the whole development process going on at Blizzard's Irvine.

I'm starting to become tired of this whole affair with us commenting on things we just don't know yet as if they were facts of life and we were some kind of game design authority with years of experience on the field.

I ask... More honesty, please!

[Telzen]

Telzen, the more than 1 rank per active skill (which I petition be shortened to +1PAS for brevity) was already known and planned for when the demo came out. So all those passives were intended to occur with +1PAS. Some may be removed or changed due to testing, but not because of +1PAS.

They didn't say so, but I believe their system back then was setup to just have actives be at 1 rank.

Take Magic Missile and Improved Magic Missile. Improved Magic Missile increases the number fired and the damage they do. What then is left for Magic Missile to do as it goes up in rank? If you look their is a passive way to raise the damage of every skill available. Going by the skill information from Blizzcon their really was nothing for the skills themselves to raise because damage and everything else was covered already by a passive. But I believe they said in one of the panels that when people got new active skills they wanted to put more points into them, and it didn't feel satisfying to not be able to.

[Keighvin]

Actually, they said shortly after people started talking on the forums that the +1PAS was how the final game would be based, the 1 ranks were just for the demo.

[CaptainDingo]

I have no concerns for the Witch Doctor. He's going to be a great class, (most) people who don't think so are simply throwing a tantrum still that there's no Necromancer.

We know only a speck of information about his various skills, and frankly, what we have seen of him is cooler than a Necromancer. Bone wall was worthless, zombie wall is epic. Giant wooden voodoo masks are awesome, cutting yourself in the bathtub is lame.

How he's currently last place on the list of what characters everyone wants to play most is bewildering to me.

[knightmawko]

Ok, so I understand where you are coming from but really I dont see these as huge problems. While Diabo 3 is going to be a multiplayer game and that was one of the best parts of Diablo II, Diablo is first and foremost an RPG, certain moves are geared toward single player combat for a reason, there is as single player campaign.

-The Witch Dr is not a melee class obviously, these skills make him a negative support/summoning charecter.

-When you say things like, this is a very frustrating system, or this ability is ultimiatly useless in multiplayer I cant help but think, "Well, this guy has obviously had his fair share of time playing Diablo 3." Then I slap myself and stop dreaming.

-Alot of the skills you said would be uselss or counter intuative in multiplayer, well their is a fairly simple remedy to such a problem. Do not use those skills in multiplayer. When you say that he is going to slow down gameplay and frustrate everyone else, you obviously are not considering the fact that sometimes there will not be anybody else. Also, those skills will be very usefull in multiplayer providing the Witch Dr isn't a D-bag. picture the Barb surrounded with low health, then the Witch Dr fears the enemy and the run in time for the Barb to heal and then go back to smashing

-I do agree with you on firebomb to some extent, I dont see how it defines the class just yet, but then we have only seen so many skills of the WD, it may be that he has a bunch more pyromantic spells that we don't even know about and firebomb is the gateway, like Mud Golem for the necromancer. I hardly see a Death Mage as summoning a creature made of mud, but then the Necromancer was really defined (for me atleast) By the only two spells I used, Bone spear and Fire Golem, and of course those anoying little skelatons. The point is you can't really make a judgement about defining the class until you have played it several times and I assume the people at Blizzard have more expierience with it then we do.

-I actually intend to play as the Witch Dr first, unless the next classes are awesome. Then the Wizzard, the point being its all an opinion issue. I mean I see where you are coming from, but lighten up until you have given the game a chance. If you have this same concern later then thats cool, but right now it just isnt fair to pick apart a class that has so much pottential.

[a brick]

I'm really tired of this. Let's get this straight so there isn't any misunderstanding.

1. You assume the WD skills are going to be weak compared to the Wizard's and Barb's. You seem like the type to have the godliest gear in Diablo 2 with all the common builds like a Hammerdin and Smiter. Great for you. But in Diablo 3, there isn't going to be an enigma, and grief, and whatever other runeword that makes the classes you say will dominate, so THEY WON'T DOMINATE. Do you really think a barb without grief and fort and whatever is going to obliterate all hell monsters like they do in Diablo 2. No...

2. What is wrong with having skills that is similar to Diablo 2? Was Diablo 2 REALLY that innovative when they came up with Fireball, conversion, and whatever else you said. Spells that scare away monsters, for example, are pretty common in most RPGs, I believe. Mind control, fire, and a lot of other things found in Diablo 2 are in other games. By comparing Diablo 3 to 2 and saying the skills are the same means nothing.

3. Just because you play a certain way, doesn't mean everyone does. Just keep that in mind when you state things that only apply to you.

I doubt you will, but try to play a single player game, get to hell, and see if you can blast away all the monsters with brute strength. Try it. The WD offers skills that are useful in situations that Blizzard cares about, not that you care about.

And of course. Like what everyone else says: Don't play the WD if you hate him/her so much -_-. you don't HAVE to tell others about how much you hate it. You know you're just gonna start a fight over it. And congrats, you did.

brick

[Nighthavk]

First of all, he says his "concerns" he's recieved from the gameplay trailer. Which is the kind of thing that Blizzard anticipates when they release a demo, right? He doesn't say "WD is the suck", he compares his abilities to other classes' abilities and makes good remarks.

Fire Blast spells have been in games usually nothing more than gateaways. They usually are flavoresque, slow in motion, deal moderate AoE damage and keep you waiting for "that level x massive fire spell!". That being mentioned in the gameplay trailer should be viewed as an indicate of higher level fire spells But such a spell, NOT having an impact like that of Meteor after initial cast should not be a class defining spell, because it's slow in nature and such spells slow down the game unneccesarily.

Mass-Fear was bound to be given to a class, because it's a user favourite, and no game is done without it. Again, it should be a part of a class, not a defining factor. Barb wasn't known for his awesome CC capacities though Howl definietly was a great one, I hope it'll be the same with WD.

Wall spells usually suck. The reason is they help you keep alive sometime when early in levels and then you completely ignore them as you get a good gear up. Further more, they slow the game down at later stages of game when you get a good gear. Such spells are failure in most games - you shouldn't abandon utility spells at later stages of game 'cause you don't need them, they should only get better.

And a wall spell is the worst kind of util spells in games as they WILL inevitably slow down the game at a certain stage. At that point the damage they inflict will be a non issue, even if they insta kill, then you still have to wait it to disappear to move along. In that case, many people will completely skip it unless it's a requirement and will only invest one point and curse their bad luck and forget about the spell (or use it once or twice since they already did spend the point, depending on the power of the spell). Such spells should be considered a failure from development pov.

Confusion should be like the mass fear - streotypical spell. One of the problems of confuse in D2 was it was for gimmick use only. They'd overwrite Amplify Damage, Decrepify, Lower Resist or Dim Vision (the only useful CC curse in necro arsenal) and the damage was unnoticeable. Confused monsters SHOULD get other curses as well, otherwise if it'll end up like Necro's in D2, it'll never be used seriously (a worse case than zombie wall).

Pets is right on as well. While "1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-1-2" gameplay is boring, pet system looks like way too much micro management for an action rpg. If I wanted micro management, I'd play a RTS. Hell, even WoW is a slower game and even there such a system would be slow as hell.

SO, to wrap up:

1. Hopefully, FireBlast is a waypoint spell for better fire AoE spells and not a class defining ability.
2. Walls are horrible in general, if wall of zombies will be present in the game, it should better make up for the time a high-end player has to wait for the wall to come down, since no one enjoys having spells in your arsenal you no longer need to cast (or is bad for you to cast).
3. Confusion, Terror, Dim Vision ALL served the same purpose in D2, but only Dim Vision was ever useful. Three-four kinds of spell in same class that serve the exact same purpose is useless. Also, the damage dealt from Confusion was unnoticable at later stages of game. If it ends up in the final release, make it useful for late game.
4. Hopefully a WD will not have to micromanage pets for maximum damage output. And if it doesn't, then such a system is obsolute anyway.

Cool factors only get you so far in a game that depends on replayability, such as Diablo. WoZ will be funny the first time you cast it. Same goes for Confusion. Same goes for über pet explosion. When you play the same char 100th time, I'll check to see if the spell has potential in late game. These spells usually don't.

So I'm hoping that Blizz will see these and ship a game that will emberass me and the OP. I'm not saying WD sucks, I hope it won't and I hope to get into it but if I do, I'd like it better if it were because my concerns were illegit and not because despite the fact I was right when speculating.

I believe blizz would ask their players to do nothing more - speculate and tell what they like and not. If not, heck, why should they release these materials? I come from playing a lot of rpgs and these are simple facts and experiences from other games that I hope will not be the issue in D3 - concerns, not "WD sucks bb".

[AnimeCraze]

Confuse works wonders, even in D2. Just consider the following scenario that happened earlier today:
Location: Uber Tristram
Condition: All 3 ubers are out, loads of minions running around the place.
Us: 1 paladin + 1 necro

Result: My skeles didn't stand a chance against all that, and it was only by confusing the minions that the pally was able to kill 2 of the ubers. Then......, the game dropped.

Anyways, if they balance it better in D3, skills like that would be a great asset.