D3 PvP = no mix/max, all APM ?

[machinus]

From everything we have heard about the game, it really sounds like Blizzard is removing the aspect of pvp that I know many of us enjoyed the most, the part that happens before combat: building your character.

Blizzard is going to be adopting the wow talent system in a big way: capping how many points can be invested in each skill (less customization, I don't see what good comes out of this), and forcing players to spend their points in lower skills (less customization, could be ok depending on what they put at the top of the tree). If you thought pvp chars were "cookie-cutter" in LoD, wait until every player has their 5/5 points in Add Crit and 1/1 point in Good Combat Skill and no place to put the other 94 points but in skills about health globes and post critical hit bonuses. Is that supposed to be "customized?" Because all of these changes are for people who want to raid with their friends. I agree that the party system and team play sucked in D2. But I don't see why they have to ruin pvp just to fix that.

Eliminating stat customization and stat requirements is a huge blow to pvp, since you will NOT be optimizing your stats to carry your best items and complement the skills you will be using. Every barb is going to have the same str and vit and a bunch of energy sitting around doing little to nothing since Fury is irrelevant in pvp battles (useless). Every wizard is going to have a bunch of dex so she can "dodge" all the attacks she has to TP away from anyway (useless).

Forcing players to spend their stats and skill points in pvm skills is going to make pvp pointless and unfun.

This is because if both players have 100 points and 500 attributes to spend, we can pick our own items (since its impossible to get that eth breath, I have to pick something else and change my stats), put our 40 points into our main skills, and then decide how to optimize our passives, resistances, synergies, etc., for the equipment we have for pvp. If I don't even have to think about str and dex allocation, and there are only 3 pvp skills and we're both maxed out on those, the only thing that differentiates us is our equipment.

Now, let me ask you: In LoD, you were required to make a MF character and do runs just to get the equipment you needed to build optimal pvp chars. Most of the time drops were near-impossible, and the trading system was unreliable (spam your have list all night instead of actually playing the game), full of poofy items, and time consuming.

Character builds in LoD were too item-centric, because the best items were so much better and nearly impossible to get. After all the time you spent playing other characters just to get the right items for your main character, do you really want to play a game where you have no freedom to customize your character besides getting better items?

It sounds like pvp is going to be about two things: getting lucky and finding better items then your opponent, and being able to cycle through 10 different combat skills faster than they can. Which doesn't sound anything to me like an RPG.

[the V]

I agree for the most part. I knew Diablo 3 coming after World of Warcraft could only mean bad things. I played D2 classic for about 6 years, and WoW for about 4. I really hope they don't try to turn D3 into an MMORPG like WoW, where everyone wears basically the same gear, has the same talent builds, life, and mana.

What made D2 great was you not only had skills to customize, but attributes as well. You could be a 400 dex amazon or a more balanced one with 275 vitality to complement your dex. Hopefully they at least keep that aspect of it. Hopefully there won't be any bullcrap questing for leveling either. Let's keep it hack-and-slash, please.

The WoW talent system is great...for WoW. The reason being you need all of those low level, forced talent points because it takes wayyyyy more time to level. In D2, you can go from level 19 to 30 before you even know where to put your attributes yet. They're different games, and it should stay that way.

[Telzen]

Blizzard is going to be adopting the wow talent system in a big way: capping how many points can be invested in each skill (less customization, I don't see what good comes out of this), and forcing players to spend their points in lower skills (less customization, could be ok depending on what they put at the top of the tree).

Umm D2 also had a skill cap. It was 20. Now its 15 for passives and maybe 5 or more for active skills. The passives add a lot of benefits and make your character stronger, many of them affect multiple skills. So you're actually using 1 point to effect more than one skill, seems better to me. And I guess having to put points into skills you wouldn't use in D2 to move up the tree wasn't "forcing players to spend their points in lower skills"? At least now you can just put points into a passive that will help the entire game instead of having a bunch of 1 point skills.

If you thought pvp chars were "cookie-cutter" in LoD, wait until every player has their 5/5 points in Add Crit and 1/1 point in Good Combat Skill and no place to put the other 94 points but in skills about health globes and post critical hit bonuses. Is that supposed to be "customized?" Because all of these changes are for people who want to raid with their friends. I agree that the party system and team play sucked in D2. But I don't see why they have to ruin pvp just to fix that.).

I don't really see how 36+ passives per character to chose from to build your character is reducing customization. And plenty of those passives would be good for a pvp build.

Eliminating stat customization and stat requirements is a huge blow to pvp, since you will NOT be optimizing your stats to carry your best items and complement the skills you will be using. Every barb is going to have the same str and vit and a bunch of energy sitting around doing little to nothing since Fury is irrelevant in pvp battles (useless). Every wizard is going to have a bunch of dex so she can "dodge" all the attacks she has to TP away from anyway (useless).

Forcing players to spend their stats and skill points in pvm skills is going to make pvp pointless and unfun..

Don't even know what you are trying to say here. Players will not have the same stats. All of the same class will have the same base stats, but with items everyone will have a different total of each stat. And depending on what skills you pick, you will want items that give different amounts of each stat.

This is because if both players have 100 points and 500 attributes to spend, we can pick our own items (since its impossible to get that eth breath, I have to pick something else and change my stats), put our 40 points into our main skills, and then decide how to optimize our passives, resistances, synergies, etc., for the equipment we have for pvp. If I don't even have to think about str and dex allocation, and there are only 3 pvp skills and we're both maxed out on those, the only thing that differentiates us is our equipment.

Not sure what you're going for here either. But wouldn't it be great to not have to pick your final items before building your class? Not having stat requirements on items gives more options to players. Pretty simple.

Now, let me ask you: In LoD, you were required to make a MF character and do runs just to get the equipment you needed to build optimal pvp chars. Most of the time drops were near-impossible, and the trading system was unreliable (spam your have list all night instead of actually playing the game), full of poofy items, and time consuming.

Character builds in LoD were too item-centric, because the best items were so much better and nearly impossible to get. After all the time you spent playing other characters just to get the right items for your main character, do you really want to play a game where you have no freedom to customize your character besides getting better items?

Yeah because D3 = D2 right? You don't know what the drop rates on items will be or what the trade system is going to be.

It sounds like pvp is going to be about two things: getting lucky and finding better items then your opponent, and being able to cycle through 10 different combat skills faster than they can. Which doesn't sound anything to me like an RPG.

You don't have to cycle through skills, there's a hot bar. Instead of just spamming your strongest skill, now you can actually use tatics and have easy access to multiple skills to use against your opponent.

[Snarf]

D2 made the illusion that your character was more customizable for pvp. This is true, you could make characters very different from others but if you wanted to be good you basically had to have minimal strength, dex, and mana, the rest was ALL vitality. I am very happy that you can now vary your character more from the cookie cutter builds and not SUCK....I hope

[akboy]

Has Blizzard announced what all the skill caps will be? Have they announced what the stats for each skill will be? No. Most of the caps in the demos we've seen were temporary and won't be in the final game. So it's way too early to complain about cookie cutter builds because we don't know enough yet.

Eliminating stat customization and stat requirements is a huge blow to pvp, since you will NOT be optimizing your stats to carry your best items and complement the skills you will be using. Every barb is going to have the same str and vit . . .
No, that's false. You WILL be able to optimize your stats and every barb WON'T have the same str and vit. The stat customization will come from your gear. D2 had this, but D3 will have a greater focus on it to give more customization.

You want a pure str titan barb in D3? Fine, load him up with a bunch of str gear. Think of the auto stats in D3 like your base stats, like how the D2 Sorc starts out with a bit of dex even though she'll probably never use it. It's your choice what to add on top of those stats.

I find it kind of odd how people keep complaining about the supposed lack of customization in D3. The new rune system will give us the option to customize our skills in ways D2 never came close to. I think in the end, we will see more customization in D3 than we did in D2.

[Akse]

Capping skills is ok. It was stupid to have every skill as 0/20 when many of the skills were just 1 pointers and a few key skills were to be maxed.

I seriously trust that they can make a 100 times better skill system than in D2.

[TarnishedHope]

You got the idea.

Pretty much, someone will be creative and figure out one optimal way to build his/her character. Then, the rest of the gurgling idiots will proceed to copy his/her exact build. Soon enough, we'll have a clone war on our hands. My same complain for every game, really.

In all fairness, too little has been revealed for proper speculation, let alone for complains. The game itself isn't even finalized yet.

Stat allocation has been very popular in both Diablo 1 & 2, and was among the prime aspects of the Diablo series. Yet, until Diablo 3 is released, few can truly say the change is not for the best. After all, if the devs. found a better way to provide character customization, more power to them. :nod:

... However, I do agree that the new skill tree reminds me too much of WoW's talent tree system, where passive effects dominate. I can honestly say that WoW's talent tree system is probably one of the biggest piece of **** I've had the misfortune of experiencing.

Sure, customization is there, but really, in the end, everyone is forced to build their character the exact same, unspectacular way. To make it even worse, if someone found a way to play the system and actually create an effective, non-conventional build, Blizzard will immediate... remedy the "mistake", through various soulcrushing changes. (straying off-topic...)

Rather alarming to see Diablo 3 going in the same direction.

[Nighthavk]

To make it even worse, if someone found a way to play the system and actually create an effective, non-conventional build, Blizzard will immediate... remedy the "mistake", through various soulcrushing changes. (straying off-topic...)Reminds me of the Tri-Spec Hemo rogues or HARPs in WoW... Shame, really.

[Edairu]

Has Blizzard announced what all the skill caps will be? Have they announced what the stats for each skill will be? No. Most of the caps in the demos we've seen were temporary and won't be in the final game. So it's way too early to complain about cookie cutter builds because we don't know enough yet.

Thank you for stating this, because many people on the forums need to read it. People are assuming the worst based on variables that can easily be changed for balancing, or even changed entirely based on Blizzard's experiences. Most of us know how Blizzard works, they try out several ideas and are constantly refining them. Don't take all of your information from one or two gameplay videos and moan and whine about what you see.

This was directed at nobody in particular.

Back on topic
I really hope they don't try to turn D3 into an MMORPG like WoW, where everyone wears basically the same gear, has the same talent builds, life, and mana.

Wait... so you think Diablo 2 isn't like this now? In some main channels I've seen 4 paladins next to eachother wearing the same armor, helm, and weapon. We all know they were the same items.

Personally I think runes messed everything up, they were far too rare to be taken seriously through legitimate means. Which resulted in massive duping and every hardcore PvP character would end up with an Enigma and Call to Arms etc. Handicapping anyone who tried to compete without buying their equipment online or duping.

[Kiroptus]

Personally I think runes messed everything up, they were far too rare to be taken seriously through legitimate means. Which resulted in massive duping and every hardcore PvP character would end up with an Enigma and Call to Arms etc. Handicapping anyone who tried to compete without buying their equipment online or duping.

I said on another thread I say it again, Enigma and CTA are among the most unbalanced things to disgrace the already weak balance that D2 has. Something must be done to adress it (Removal would be a good choice).

Wait... so you think Diablo 2 isn't like this now? In some main channels I've seen 4 paladins next to eachother wearing the same armor, helm, and weapon. We all know they were the same items.

QTF. Everyone wears the same stuff now. I still dream with the day that crafted items (and maybe rares, once again) rule the D2 items and have the chance to become the most powerful items in the game instead of boring preset runewords.

[GoldenBird]

...

In case you haven't noticed, every build is pretty well minimum str for equipment, minimum dex for equipment or max block (since you usually get AR from items I believe), and the rest into vit...

And man, the game isn't done yet, don't make so many assumptions.

[Snarf]

(off topic) What's duping?

[Edairu]

(off topic) What's duping?

Duping is copying an item through a game exploit or other means to get unlimited runes/uniques/what have you. I'm sure exactly how it's done though.

[wizAdept]

D2 made the illusion that your character was more customizable for pvp. This is true, you could make characters very different from others but if you wanted to be good you basically had to have minimal strength, dex, and mana, the rest was ALL vitality. I am very happy that you can now vary your character more from the cookie cutter builds and not SUCK....I hope

Somewhat, but not completely true.

Most chars in d2 are base str/dex all vit. This is by far the majority of pvp builds. The only excuse for dumping points in str for most builds is due to a lack of proper gear to supply +stats.

However that is not the case for *all* builds.

-There are also maxblock builds. Hard point investment in dex to support maxblock with a shield.
-Then there are 95% es sorcs which benefit more from points in energy than vit.
-Then there are a bunch of classes which benefit from from splits. Bowazons come to mind. There are vita bowzons, glasscannon all dex bowzons, and dex/vita split bowzons. Other stat split classes exist as well.


Although at first glance you could say that *most* competitive pvp builds are pure vit, there still is a certain amount of customization allowed in stating your characters allowed in a few select builds.
I think it's a bit too early in d3 to be assuming that there will be a lack of character customization due to auto-stating. Im sure there will be plenty of different skill/item/skillrune combination to have a variety of customized characters. But as far as d2 is concerned, stating does allow for some different variations on some builds. Although, yes, most work out best as pure vita and are a no-brainer to stat.

[Akse]

D2 pvp became garbage after LOD came.. it became too much item dependant which meant that you had to MF all the time.. which sucked balls.

preLOD you were able to beat people with better gear if you knew what you were doing.

Also I liked the fact that BVB was more variant than now.. now you pretty much have to have shield and then you have the nr1 1hand item that has been calculated over and over to be the best choice. Back pre-lod you could just pvp with all kinds of different weapons and be at least somewhat successful.

[wizAdept]

D2 pvp became garbage after LOD came.. it became too much item dependant which meant that you had to MF all the time.. which sucked balls.

preLOD you were able to beat people with better gear if you knew what you were doing.

Also I liked the fact that BVB was more variant than now.. now you pretty much have to have shield and then you have the nr1 1hand item that has been calculated over and over to be the best choice. Back pre-lod you could just pvp with all kinds of different weapons and be at least somewhat successful.

Complete nonsense.

You beat people in 1.10+ LOD by outplaying them. Nothing changes. If anything I would say classic is more item dependent.
With LOD and the current chars its not hard to get a "standard" build with enigma/cta/etc. After you have your character's basic bps you do not need a perfect build to win at pvp. In fact you can outplay most players with just a bare bones build if you know what you are doing. A simple wizardspike and enigma can be enough to outplay someone geared in much better and more expensive gear.

[teh_Thrasher]

yeah dont rag on the skill system yet, its not all worked out.
they havent even announced how they are going to do pvp since unconcensual pvp is out.

and if everyone has the same build u should be able to find a counter to it... no1 build should be the end all be all build of ownage. everything needs its counter balance.


i REALLY hope they show a glimpse of some pvp action at blizzcon.

You beat people in 1.10+ LOD by outplaying them. Nothing changes. If anything I would say classic is more item dependent.
With LOD and the current chars its not hard to get a "standard" build with enigma/cta/etc. After you have your character's basic bps you do not need a perfect build to win at pvp. In fact you can outplay most players with just a bare bones build if you know what you are doing. A simple wizardspike and enigma can be enough to outplay someone geared in much better and more expensive gear.


lol easy to get if ur trolling d2jsp or buying ur items online... highest runes ive found legit were Sur and Lo.
oh and enigma is lame. seriously... WAY too overpowered. need to remove the +1 teleport. leave that skill for sorceresses and +skill charge rings/ammys. nuf said

[jhtvman]

oh and enigma is lame. seriously... WAY too overpowered. need to remove the +1 teleport. leave that skill for sorceresses and +skill charge rings/ammys. nuf said
As far as D2 goes, Enigma was a necessary inclusion. Without it, sorcs are the only class that can key run/mf efficiently, and they go back to pretty much owning PVP.

[wizAdept]

lol easy to get if ur trolling d2jsp or buying ur items online... highest runes ive found legit were Sur and Lo.
oh and enigma is lame. seriously... WAY too overpowered. need to remove the +1 teleport. leave that skill for sorceresses and +skill charge rings/ammys. nuf said

Unless you play solo or have some philosophical reason for staying "legit" and not trading I think enigma or any runeword is very inexpensive compared to how much rare/crafted jewelery and charms go for. Highrunes are the least expensive items when it comes to pvp builds.

Whats the problem with +1 teleport oskill? It makes gameplay a hell of a lot of fun in pvp as well as it actually balances d2 classes a lot more than gameplay without enigma (which would be mostly offmap guided/bonespirit spam) because of how players can chase each other.
Im not saying d3 has to have everyone teleporting, it will be a new game and Im sure every class will have their own evasion/mobility tactics, but as far as d2 gameplay goes enigma levels the playing field quite a lot because most classes do not have sufficient mobility tactics. Not overpowered because it is open to most classes. It actually balances the game well by creating counter classes and minion stacking.

Im sure this is difficult to see for players who are outside the pvp community however, because you are right that it is near impossible to self-find highrunes. personally I believe this is a mistake blizzard made and perhaps the game would be more newbie friendly if there was some sort of uber like quest to get highrunes.
But game balance is not determined by what you can and can not afford, game balance is determined by what exists and what final builds can be constructed from those items. Enigma is a class defining item that is *required* for competitive pvp play, however it is not overpowered because the variety of builds that can use enigma (winddruid/hammerdin/smiter/bvc/bva/trapper/necro/etc/etc/etc) all counter balance each other and in the end the game is pretty fair. Calling enigma way overpowered is like calling anni and torch overpowered. Yes every char uses them, yes they are required for pvp builds or you'll be at a massive disadvantage. But they do not create game balance problems between the classes, enigma is similar to that, in fact it helps solve many balance problems between classes.

Runewords were a nice addition to d2 because they help solidify core builds. Grief/enigma/cta/spirit and many other runewords (along with staple items like arach/trangs/dracs/gores/tgods/dungos/etc) help create the cookiecutter molds, which is actually not a bad thing like most pvp newbies make it sound. This means that as long as you can afford these basic pvp items (which arent expensive as long as you have no problems trading with hr items) you can have fully functional builds.
Of course the rare/crafted items and charms are what really crank out high hp values and other perks (res/faster bps/other various stats) for characters, these are the most expensive part of pvp builds, but they are not necessary to have a functional build meaning pvp is more accessible to players without a huge budget. (although you have to be able to afford at least the core items for the build of course)

Runewords in a way help to balance the game and make it easier to have a functional pvp build without having a huge budget. The difference between rich and poor is a lot greater when comparing different rare weapons as opposed to comparing a low grief vs a high grief.

[Akse]

the whole 1.10 and its synergy + new runewords made the game suck balls. Good meter for this is that all the pvp leagues in 1.09 pretty much stopped existing.. or they have rules not to have enigma and this and that and oh this one too. So much new crazy stuff came along in 1.10 which made the gameplay awful.

Yeah crafted and rare items are expensive because they can't be duped.. doh! All the even slightly higher runewords would be extremely expensiv if the runes haven't been duped for zillion times.

As far as D2 goes, Enigma was a necessary inclusion. Without it, sorcs are the only class that can key run/mf efficiently, and they go back to pretty much owning PVP. THe problem isn't sorc teleport. It is the whole game itself and what it became when LOD was released. It became an MF game. You didn't have to do MF runs before LOD, you could equip 100-200 MF to your main character and go leveling up and wholalaa rares drop all the time no matter where you were playing.

You didn't have to run 1 damn boss all the time with teleport. You could take a barb and clear act4 faster than any sorc and gather the loot and exp.

[wizAdept]

the whole 1.10 and its synergy + new runewords made the game suck balls. Good meter for this is that all the pvp leagues in 1.09 pretty much stopped existing.. or they have rules not to have enigma and this and that and oh this one too. So much new crazy stuff came along in 1.10 which made the gameplay awful.
Or maybe you are oblivious to the many leagues which have formed in 1.10+ and 1.11+

The old leagues that tried to enforce rules not to use enigma were failures. Those are just players who are too stubborn to adapt to new gameplay tactics and tried to keep playing in the old style.

How can you say the new stuff made the gameplay awful? There are many players (myself being one of them) who would strongly disagree with that. Classes being able to teleport makes duels a lot faster paced, allows players to make incredible comebacks, allows melee range characters (smiters/wwbarbs/wwsins) to chase down casters, makes chasing players in general (for both casters and noncasters) a lot more exciting because its all about namelock control and stomping, keeping locks while your opponent is attempting to break locks or lure and punish - really fun gameplay mechanics for pvp.

Really, your whole view on "the whole 1.10 and its synergy + new runewords made the game suck balls." is so opinionated. Lots of players are currently having fun with synergies and oskills in pvp today. Maybe you just didn't experience 1.10 pvp in a good way, maybe just dueling with the wrong crowd. idk. But there are lots of people who enjoy telestomping and the rest of what makes 1.10+ dueling what it is.

[Akse]

I only know 1.10 classic leagues.

wwsins.. lol.. class is so sucky that it needs to use barbarians skills to win? Thats one retarded gameplay concept why they first design a class, which then ends up using same skill as another class as a main skill.

Melee characters have been able to kill casters/ranged already in 1.09 and even before that. A proof for that is one of my classic speed barbs. It was easier in 1.06 because everyone had the same resolution of 640x480 which made it harder for casters to predict a melee's position and they also couldn't make so long teleports with the smaller screen. Before LOD duels were always fast paced because there wasn't any stupid damage reduces, absorbs or anything. It was simple fast and required skill not gear.

Yeah maybe they are enjoying and can stay in D2 enjoying its suckyness.

Gladly D3 will be much different.

[wizAdept]

I only know 1.10 classic leagues.

wwsins.. lol.. class is so sucky that it needs to use barbarians skills to win? Thats one retarded gameplay concept why they first design a class, which then ends up using same skill as another class as a main skill.

Melee characters have been able to kill casters/ranged already in 1.09 and even before that. A proof for that is one of my classic speed barbs. It was easier in 1.06 because everyone had the same resolution of 640x480 which made it harder for casters to predict a melee's position and they also couldn't make so long teleports with the smaller screen. Before LOD duels were always fast paced because there wasn't any stupid damage reduces, absorbs or anything. It was simple fast and required skill not gear.

Yeah maybe they are enjoying and can stay in D2 enjoying its suckyness.

Gladly D3 will be much different.

Lol wwsins sucky? You sure don't understand a thing about 1.10+ pvp.
Just cause they use ww does not mean they are trying to be barbs. Wow you are ignorant. Keep living in the past and thinking pre-LOD was some holy experience cause you never got into 1.10+ dueling. If you really think items > skill in d2 then perhaps you should just stay out of pvp it's not for you.

[wizAdept]

Getting back on the topic of d3, Im kinda hoping for more of the same feel that d2 has with it's pvp.

I'd love it if players are able to deal huge amounts of damage in hld and knock each other out in a few hits like most core hld builds in d2 can. Also mobility is a must, players need to be able to pounce on each other and end duels quickly. Im liking how the barbarian has that fast leap, gonna be similar to teleporting onto someone bvc style. Hopefully every class will have some type of mobility tactic in one way or another.
Can't wait to see what d3 pvp has to offer.

[Akse]

Lol wwsins sucky? You sure don't understand a thing about 1.10+ pvp.
Just cause they use ww does not mean they are trying to be barbs. Wow you are ignorant. Keep living in the past and thinking pre-LOD was some holy experience cause you never got into 1.10+ dueling. If you really think items > skill in d2 then perhaps you should just stay out of pvp it's not for you.

I didn't say wwsins are sucky .. never even played one. But I said is the class must be somehow sucky if it has to use a skill from other class. Why don't people just make kicker or something that really is an assassin.

Yeah pre-LOD was a holy experience. I never got into 1.10+ pretty much at all except now at 1.12 ladder. I think there are some good things in 1.10+ dueling, at least somewhere they went back to pre-LOD when they removed leeching. I'd gladly play classic BVB now but thers one thing that I don't like in there.. everyone pretty much has angelics because the set bonus is just too good. I don't like anything thats ultimately the best choice, maybe a bit like enigma, you wouldn't want to be the only one without it when others circle around you.

items > skill at least in LOD.. in classic no so much. Dunno how you beat someone in duel without any damage reduce(phys vs phys) if the opponent has maximum, at least it makes it a lot easier for the damage reduce user. There are just some mods in LOD that are pretty much a must, damage reduce is nice but I hate things that you "must" have.

Ye but anyways back to topic.. which i forgot so cya :P

[wizAdept]

Because its not sucky to use oskills? I dont get your logic at all. Are sorcs sucky cause they use passion to zeal? omg its a pally skill.

oskills are not meant to replace classes or emulate classes. Zeal sorcs are radically different in how they duel from pally zealots.
Same goes for wwbarbs and wwsins. Wwsins are a different character type from wwbarbs, they have different class advantages and disadvantages, they play differently.
There is nothing ****ty about assassins that they have to use chaos, trappers are still a core pvp char type and are very abundant, trappers are considered top tier duelers in tournaments and team duel settings, where you hardly see any wwsins because wwsins are more 1v1 characters.
I don't see why you have this much a problem with oskills, personally I think its cool to mix up skills and see how they function on other classes with the support skills that class has on it's own.


And about skill > items, I truely believe this is the case once you get over build basics and have a functional build with minimal items.
As I said before, you can own just fine with a wizardspike + enigma without really needing other items and do fine vs casual players. Having good res stack setups and dr options and other stuff is of course important when you get to dueling better players, but really the most necessary thing in a duel is not getting hit.
Gameplay is key, casters avoid hits and attempt unanswered hits to get the pk. If this was a game about tanking it would be more item based, but its not about tanking because each class can pk each other in a few hits, this puts gameplay and not getting hit as the priority in a duel.

Im thinking you just havent experienced this 1.10+ style of hld.

[Akse]

Never even heard of a zeal sorc.. thats ridiculous. sorcs are casters. If I want to zeal I choose pally, if I want to cast meteors I choose sorc. Another ridiculous thing is the BO that other people get from the runeword, one of the most powerful skills being given to all classes.. nice idea! Lets give everyone some extra hp since they seem to suck so bad.

oskills thing sounds like a single player mod that should have never been in the battle.net versions. I really don't understand the logic behind 1.10.. it is like a different game when you compare it to 1.09. They already changed the game to a very different when LOD came then again in 1.10. What will this game end up when this kinds of things goes on.. I wanted to play D2 and only got to play the real D2 for 1 year and after that I've been playing some stupid modifications of it.

I only play HC so I don't duel very much. From my experience classic hc duels are better in 1.10 than before that just because they are mostly BVB which is better without the leech that was in 1.09. So ye hc classic bvb has improved in 1.10.. otherwise I'd say pre-1.10 is better and pre-LOD is the best from pvp point of view.

Anyways it sounds like they want to make each class very unique in D3 so I really hope we don't see same kind of situation than in 1.10, if the classes are well designed as it looks like already we don't need such garbage that 1.10 brought with synergies and oskills.

[Saesa]

...otherwise I'd say pre-1.10 is better and pre-LOD is the best from pvp point of view...

Madness and scorn. I loved 1.06-1.09 duelling as well but managed to accommodate during years. Perhaps it's best at the point where it is insantly.You never know what 1.13 brings.

[wizAdept]

Never even heard of a zeal sorc.. thats ridiculous. sorcs are casters. If I want to zeal I choose pally, if I want to cast meteors I choose sorc. Why? These are barriers you are creating in your mind for no reason. Most sorcs are casters yes, but that does not mean you can't make variations on builds. D2 would be kinda boring if every class was set in stone. Being able to make different yet viable builds is part of the fun.
Here is a nice vid of a zeal sorc in pvp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_Hedybe7vw
Its not at all like a zeal pally, its not at all like a fb or blizz sorc, its its own class, made possible by an oskill weapon and 2x dreams.

Another ridiculous thing is the BO that other people get from the runeword, one of the most powerful skills being given to all classes.. nice idea! Lets give everyone some extra hp since they seem to suck so bad.
Giving all classes BO balances the game. Yet any cta bo is still much much weaker than a barb BO. fair.



I only play HC so I don't duel very much. From my experience classic hc duels are better in 1.10 than before that just because they are mostly BVB which is better without the leech that was in 1.09. So ye hc classic bvb has improved in 1.10.. otherwise I'd say pre-1.10 is better and pre-LOD is the best from pvp point of view.
Ah I see where you are coming from.
So you don't pvp at all in 1.10+
So you wouldn't know anything about pvp game balance and how enigma wearing chars actually duel. <.< Not trying to flame you but by saying you play only HC you are obviously out of your element in a pvp discussion.


Anyways it sounds like they want to make each class very unique in D3 so I really hope we don't see same kind of situation than in 1.10, if the classes are well designed as it looks like already we don't need such garbage that 1.10 brought with synergies and oskills.
I actually wouldn't mind if classes borrowed a little from each other here and there. not necessarily oskills but class skills dont have to be set in stone for that class only. A class borrowing a skill that belongs to another class does not make it the same class. Im kinda upset that the d3 barb was announced as the only true melee char, but then I was happy to see that the wizard has some melee like skills.
Not exactly the same thing as oskills. Don't think there is a need for oskills in d3 since it's being developed from the ground up at the moment but a few of them wouldn't be a bad thing either.

[Akse]

Yeah I don't know much about 1.10 duels but I know enough that dueling sorc vs sorc wasn't really fun back pre 1.10. And thats about tele vs tele. I'd rather take a barb vs ama without teleport or something ama vs sorc. In Classic this worked out really nice and things were quite a bit balanced pre 1.10.

Well thats just my opinion, like the things about oskills. For me it just doesn't belong to the game. But since I play HC you actually see a lot less of those weird builds out there(the very little experience of 2 characters I played LOD HC this season). Maybe the reason I play classic is just that it's not LOD :) Lod pre 1.10 wasn't so much different but now it certainly is a whole different game than it used to be.

Well I agree that its nice that Wizard has melee skills, but the way she has it is a lot better than now in D2 :) She is casting melee objects that fights for her and such rather than being the warrior and being toe to toe against the enemy.

Anyways now we should get back to the topic :)

It's just hard to discuss about D3 pvp yet since it is really hard to figure out how it might work because you pretty much even can't figure out how PVM will work :)

[konnu]

I totally agree with OP.

This change just cuts down diversity from the builds.

I'm even more afraid of WOW implementations to gear. Mainly i'm afraid blizzard will make sets too good, like they are in WOW. EVERYONE has the same gear, same set. and the set stats benefit specific builds more.

D2 gear was great, there was many possible builds and even more ways to equip it.

Speculation: For example one possiple build that could take a hit is the "battlemage" or enchanter mage who would like to have more health and melee stats.

[Nextt]

While I hate the CTA due to the fact I played barb in 1.09 (using tele ammy so i owned all.) anyways, due to the fact that the Enigma was created it was needed that the CTA was needed, without a bo from CTA a barb could tele ww 1 hit kill easily. Without CTA all classes would die 1 hit to light sorc (unless they used sorb obviously which sorb in pvp is just another way of saying im a noob)
The pvp I would like to see in D3 is a PvPvE setup. where lets say there is these 2 to like 6 or 7 games that are up 24/7 and are a different map then ur normal games, but are still Large and can also have multiple people in them "say up to like 40?" or more or less just numbers. You can form groups of a max of 5 people "so as to not have a group be so overpowered they control the whole map easily" And within these maps that are way different than the normal games, theres mob spots where you can decide to kill mobs for exp and you get more exp for them(and they respawn). Well then also in these maps theres chances for bosses to spawn "boss respawn time is every 2-5ish hours"
So anyways basic idea that could turn better even. So while I don't know if they could even do this because this is then like implementing and "MMORPG" aspect into just a "RPG" game.
The thing is tho its only a part of the "PvP" which essentially is important. And I say kill mobs for exp also because Diablo is not a game where you want to hit max lvl doing quests.... that is retarded you will have nothing to do the game is paritally fun by the fact you always just level every now and then while trading , mfing, and pvping. It was nice to where there wasn't a big diff between lvl 91 and 99 due to no difference of items. only some stats / skills. So skill still made a difference. (compared to WoW the idea of a lvl 79 beating a lvl 80 who is just naxx geared now is impossible)
Now item wise, I hope very much it is not like WoW where all items are the same with simply sockets that everyone uses the same gems mostly in the same gear so it doesn't matter. Again a nice thing is the change in strength of an item when you find it "the whole unid / non unid thing" is great, it really makes you want to be like **** i wanna id it but if its **** i could of sold for more unid. Its a great aspect.
Now you might be like well in d2 you see the average for instance smiter they all use the same thing, grief, exile, vamps(due to chance of life tap which is amazing). etc. But even in that case at least theres differences due to the grief maybe being only 350 damage compared to 400 dmg.
People are bringing up the stat customization saying the gear is going to change it so peoples stats will be diff, but i don't see how gear is going to make that big of differences in stats other than your average "how vamps have 10-15 str" in which case it means you won't be building your character by even paying attention to stats because certain things are simply more important. Example from 1.09 just cause its off top of my head "bowzon's instead of using an ammy like eye of etlich (1 skills and other stuff) or an ammy with say 30 dex and 30 vite or something WITH 15% frw, they used the ammy that gives chance on hit to cast amplify (forget name of ammy) This is where the customization of stats was nice compared to simply saying your gonna get different stats than everyone else from different gear. (which i just don't see how all this "different gear with different stats" is going to happen) in every game theres the items that are usually the best items for your class( and its more than 1). For example. Verdungos on a barb, if a barb is going to use a shield because he wants max block, the shield choice is obvious, if he wants a shield with a 1h with alot of dmg bonus he will use pheonix. Or for a zon 4x 40/15 jewel chest, wwsin with bramble, I mean theres so much more. If customization didn't exist alot of these classes would be way to close to identical because there item stats only vary from "1-10" stat points. By having str req's etc, you had to think "I'm going to be getting x stats from this, and x stats from this" so i need to put x stats into dex for max block or x stats into str to use my gear. Made it more intense and really separated people who were playing for PvP and those who actually played D2 for PvE(lol at so much PvE content). Also a game shouldn't be so Cooperative like WoW where skill is so not factored into how you play your class its impossible to win 1v3 or 1v2 even agasint equally geared people. In D2, if your skilled enough (like my ele druid gotta love the nados) you could 1v5ish people of the same geared (partially depending on classes facing) and 1 v full game if you play defensively enouph (and they don't have a barb his BO would simply be to much that it would be to hard to kill people cause they back out and POt!)

[sreda]

From everything we have heard about the game, it really sounds like Blizzard is removing the aspect of pvp that I know many of us enjoyed the most, the part that happens before combat: building your character....


I agree for the most part. But after watching hours of interviews and videos of Diablo 3 it's become clear to me that Blizzard is AWARE of this problem. Exactly as how you say it, and I'm quite sure they will have found a work-around that won't end up being like WoW's pathetic system.

There will be many different builds you could make with the system they have setup right now, runes can add to your skills power so it's more like they switched the customizable attributes to instead, customizable skills. If you ask me, the only reason they made attribute gaining the same all across the board for everyone is because of the casuals (which are the vast vast majority of the gamers on Blizzard's games), they will **** up their attribute points without a doubt and then ***** about it.

So it's inevitable, D2 highlighted that problem quite well, with everyone sticking 40 points in str and dex, and the rest in vitality, more or less. I however do feel where you are coming from, and aside from knowing that Blizzard is aware of this problem I really do hope even more so that they stick to their word, and really do make this game extremely diverse.

I want to be able to make a build that no one else has. I should from the moment I read and understand all the skills and the game mechanics, visualize at least 4-5 different builds off the top of my head, the game should be that sandbox-like if you get my drift. They said there would be many many builds that someone could make, that's really all I'm hoping for.

[Ishtor]

I have not read all post, i know i usually should, but i pretty much just want to state my opinion.

I do not think blizzard is going to remove pvp, or hender it in any way. I think they are trying to address the PK issues. PVP always has been geared dependant, you can not tell me any different.

Also on note on the talent tree, WOW got there idea from diablo first, they just improving a system they already have.

[Nextt]

I have not read all post, i know i usually should, but i pretty much just want to state my opinion.

I do not think blizzard is going to remove pvp, or hender it in any way. I think they are trying to address the PK issues. PVP always has been geared dependant, you can not tell me any different.

Also on note on the talent tree, WOW got there idea from diablo first, they just improving a system they already have.



PvP is sometimes "partially" gear dependent in for instance D2 Lod lets put 2 people with different gear against each other of same class. Lets use a necromancer as a example, each one will have a nigma and hoto, however 1 of them is going to use 2x soj, while 1 of them is going to use 2x fcr rings with str. And 1 will use a mara while other uses 2 necro skills + fcr and/or life + resists or other stats. 1 Will use a shako and 1 will use a 2 necro skills helm with fcr and fhr due to jewels and give extra life.
If you simply add in skill, the necro with the less life and or dmg/fcr etc, can win and honesty perhaps easily when you would think the other would win, due to skill and not items.

In WoW, same class vs same class = whoever has most resilience and life is most expected to win (unless obviously by a trivial amount)
Lets use a rogue, say that the rogue with less resilience and life is more skilled, he gets the first attack / stun lock blahblah, however he doesn't kill the other rogue, now its the other rogues turn since stucklock is over, the rogue with less resilience / life is now dead.

[emopanda]

I would like to see d3 having the focus whereby rare and crafted are the most powerful, (Idea of powerful is like Grandfather <vs< ebotd cb <vs< Crafted & Rares) the game will be more fun having everyone have the different gears. Also allow gear inspection into d3, there will be so much fun :)

Lastly, Introduce the Ability to make items etheral using a new unique ring in recipe.